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Photo Forum / General Photo Topics / General Topics / June 2007

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Two questions

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TS Mathews - 27 Jun 2007 16:51 GMT
I got a 55-200mm zoom lens with my new Pentax K100 digital SLR and want to
move up a bit in power.  Locally, I haven't seen anything larger than a
300mm and I wonder if that's the upper limit for zoom lenses or if it gets
cost prohobitive for those of us with no plans on making money with our
photos.  I'd like something closer to 400 or 500 if the price isn't totally
out of sight.

Next up, until I bought the Pentax, I had never heard of RAW making me
wonder if it's more of a high end or professionally geared format.  Can/will
someone clue me in as to whether or not there's any advantage/disadvantage
to using that format rather than jpeg?

Thanks,
Tim
DBLEXPOSURE - 27 Jun 2007 17:34 GMT
>I got a 55-200mm zoom lens with my new Pentax K100 digital SLR and want to
>move up a bit in power.  Locally, I haven't seen anything larger than a
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Thanks,
> Tim

As you start looking at lenses keep in mind, you get what you pay for.
There are some inexpensive telephoto and zoom-telephoto lenses out there but
as the price goes done so does the quality of the glass and the max
aperture.  Of course photography is a subjective thing and only you know
what level of quality you expect from you photographs and how much money you
are willing to spend to achieve that quality.

I can see by the way you describe the lens you received with your camera
that you are focusing on the focal length of the lens and not paying
attention to the other lens specifications.  For example I have a "300mm f/4
L IS USM"  The additional information to the right of 300mm is important in
describing the lens and its capabilities.  if/4, (the max aperture of the
lens) is one of the more important specs.  typically, as this number gets
smaller the price tag goes up exponentially as well as the physical size of
the lens.

"L" is Canon's series of low-dispersion glass lenses whisc produce sharper
images than the same lenses without the low-dispersion glass.  It makes a
noticable difference.

"IS" means the lens has servo image stabilization.  This allows you to hand
hold the lens and slower shutter speeds without having to worry about camera
shake effecting the quality of your photos.  Without "IS" you are limited
the the "1/focal length" rule when hand holding.

"USM" describes the auto-focus drive on this lens,  typically, quiter and
faster is what you want here.

My point in all this is there is more to take into account when looking at
lenses than just focal length and you will want to consider this before you
go out and get your self that 1000mm f/11.  You might get a days amusment
out of it before you realize it dosen't produce the photos you would like it
to.  You would better better off with your 200mm and using your feet to get
closer.

About RAW,

When you shoot in JPG the RAW data captured by the image sensor in your
camera get run through a pre-programmed algorithm in you camera as it get
converted to a JPG file.  This like white balance and exposure are then set
in stone and you cannot adjust it after the fact;  for many this is
perfectly okay. The benefit of JPG is the images are compressed and you can
fit many more on your card than you could RAW files.

RAW allows you to tweak the white balance, exposure and other parameters, in
fact you can recover to some extent details lost in over exposed images when
using RAW.  In short RAW gives you more control over your image rather than
depending on an algorithm to make those decisions for you. The down side is
larger files and extra steps in the post production workflow.  In my
opinion, neither of these two are much of a big deal,  memory is getting
cheaper all the time and after you get use to it the RAW processing takes
only minutes per image.

I shoot strictly RAW.

Patrick Ziegler
www.imagequest.ifp3.com
Pat - 27 Jun 2007 19:05 GMT
> >I got a 55-200mm zoom lens with my new Pentax K100 digital SLR and want to
> >move up a bit in power.  Locally, I haven't seen anything larger than a
[quoted text clipped - 63 lines]
> cheaper all the time and after you get use to it the RAW processing takes
> only minutes per image.

"Big deal" depend on the quantity you are doing.  If it takes "only
minutes per image" that is often not a big deal.  But last week I shot
about 20 images I need to process and next weekend it'll be about 120
images.  So 140 images X 2 minutes per image = 280 minutes (say 4.5
hours).  That's a big deal for me.  I'm already about 2 to 3 hours
into post processing to keep everything straight.  Heck, I still use
the "paper workflow" at the lab and pay an extra $0.25 per image for
it rather than doing the "digital workflow" and inputting data
myself.  If it took me a minute per image, I can pay them the
equivalent of $15/hour and let the lab do it.  That's a deal you can't
beat.

But if you want to sit in front of a computer screen for hours and
hours, I guess it's not big deal.

There is a time and a place for RAW, but for most things I don't see
the benefit.

> I shoot strictly RAW.
>
> Patrick Zieglerwww.imagequest.ifp3.com
DBLEXPOSURE - 28 Jun 2007 00:43 GMT
> "Big deal" depend on the quantity you are doing.  If it takes "only
> minutes per image" that is often not a big deal.  But last week I shot
> about 20 images I need to process and next weekend it'll be about 120
> images.  So 140 images X 2 minutes per image = 280 minutes (say 4.5
> hours).  That's a big deal for me.

If I was doing 140 images for a wedding album, four to six hours would not
be a big deal,  I would expect the entire editing proccess to take eight to
16 hours.  If I may ask,  what are these 140 images and what is the inteded
use?

Patrick Ziegler
www.iamgequest.ifp3.com
Pat - 28 Jun 2007 03:51 GMT
> > "Big deal" depend on the quantity you are doing.  If it takes "only
> > minutes per image" that is often not a big deal.  But last week I shot
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Patrick Zieglerwww.iamgequest.ifp3.com

Youth sports.  Memory Mates and that sort of stuff.  Good light
control because I use a tent to create a shadow (and diffusion) and
then balance the backlighting with a flash (also to create eye
highlights).  I can do a good whitel balance before I start, set the
exposure before I do a team, then run through a team in about 20
minutes of shooting.  Plus, the lab I use is exceptional so even if
the exposure should be off a bit, they can correct it on the fly.  But
they have pretty strict shooting rules.

Wedding is about the only time I shoot RAW just because of the added
latitude -- white dress and black tux, other flashes going off,
windows, etc.

RAW is a tool.  I use it when I need it and I don't when I don't.
Joel - 28 Jun 2007 05:07 GMT
> > > "Big deal" depend on the quantity you are doing.  If it takes "only
> > > minutes per image" that is often not a big deal.  But last week I shot
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> RAW is a tool.  I use it when I need it and I don't when I don't.

    That's my shooting style too.  I usually shoot little underexpose to make
sure I capture the data, and this can be recovered in few quick seconds with
Photoshop.  And to me, if anything needs to be repaired (like noise, heavy
over/underexposed etc.) then it's already a bad image not worth to spend
time repairing a poor quality image (spending lot more time recovery and
still not a good IQ).

    And for some odd reason I am more comfortable with indoor low-light than
outdoor bright-light.  And for outdoor I think I do better with P&S than
DSLR <bg>
Paul Furman - 27 Jun 2007 21:42 GMT
>>I got a 55-200mm zoom lens with my new Pentax K100 digital SLR

It looks like that's the Sigma f/4-5.6 DC?
$149.00 at B&H

>>and want to
>>move up a bit in power.  Locally, I haven't seen anything larger than a
>>300mm and I wonder if that's the upper limit for zoom lenses or if it gets
>>cost prohobitive for those of us with no plans on making money with our
>>photos.  I'd like something closer to 400 or 500 if the price isn't totally
>>out of sight.

What I did was get an old manual focus 300mm f/2.8 Tokina. A new
stabilized Nikon lens at that aperture would have cost well over $3,000
This lens is good enough to use a teleconverter with too. Stabilization
would be great but that's way too much money, I paid $700. I also have a
really nice 70-200 f/2.8 stabilized lens that can take a teleconverter
and that was over $1200. So that gives you some idea of budget.

more comments below...

>>Next up, until I bought the Pentax, I had never heard of RAW making me
>>wonder if it's more of a high end or professionally geared format.
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> to.  You would better better off with your 200mm and using your feet to get
> closer.

In fact you are often going to get better results simply cropping a good
200mm lens than using a cheap 400mm lens, especially when you start
throwing teleconverters on mediocre lenses.

> About RAW,
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> I shoot strictly RAW.

I shoot RAW+JPEG and often don't bother with the RAW file but it's nice
to have it when I need it & I keep them in case I have occasion in the
future to do a really nice big print, maybe with a lot of cropping or
sometimes you get a great shot but it's overexposed. The cost is needing
 bigger memory cards & lots of hard drive storage & time downloading.

I use photoshop for raw conversion & more detailed editing. Normally if
I want to adjust exposure, raw is simpler to work with (if a bit slower
performance) and produces a little better results, and with photoshop,
it loads right into the program so the workflow is easy to do a bit of
cropping or cloning. Sometimes a whole shoot will come out needing white
balance, contrast or exposure correction & this is 10 times easier with
RAW. Lots of times I never touch the raw files though. But I keep them.

Signature

Paul Furman Photography
http://www.edgehill.net/1
Bay Natives Nursery
http://www.baynatives.com

Joel - 27 Jun 2007 22:58 GMT
<snip>
> I shoot RAW+JPEG and often don't bother with the RAW file but it's nice
> to have it when I need it & I keep them in case I have occasion in the
> future to do a really nice big print, maybe with a lot of cropping or
> sometimes you get a great shot but it's overexposed. The cost is needing
>   bigger memory cards & lots of hard drive storage & time downloading.

    I shot RAW+JPG but mostly work on JPG.  RAW, I save for future use (just
incase I know more about RAW and can do more than what I can do with JPG at
current level) and low-light church's events and similar.

    I have plenty of memory and 2 portable strorages (around 120GB total), but
because I need to do lot more than RAW has to offer.

> I use photoshop for raw conversion & more detailed editing. Normally if
> I want to adjust exposure, raw is simpler to work with (if a bit slower
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> balance, contrast or exposure correction & this is 10 times easier with
> RAW. Lots of times I never touch the raw files though. But I keep them.

    With LightRoom which I am not familar with the interface and its
adjustment then I may need around 1 minute or more per photo, but with
either ARC or Photoshop I usually don't need more than 20-40 seconds or
under 1 min per regular photo.  For detail headshot with lot of repairing
(damaged skin-texture, winkles, yellow teeth/eyes etc.) then I may need 5-30
minutes or so.
Barry Pearson - 27 Jun 2007 17:40 GMT
[snip]
> Next up, until I bought the Pentax, I had never heard of RAW making me
> wonder if it's more of a high end or professionally geared format.  Can/will
> someone clue me in as to whether or not there's any advantage/disadvantage
> to using that format rather than jpeg?

The question is often asked, "why shoot raw?"

With modern tools, a better question is often "why shoot JPEG?"

With modern tools, for a photographer who expects to do some post-
processing, shooting raw can be easier than shooting JPEG. (Guess what
I shoot with my Pentaxes!)

--
Barry Pearson
http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/photography/
ray - 27 Jun 2007 18:12 GMT
> I got a 55-200mm zoom lens with my new Pentax K100 digital SLR and want to
> move up a bit in power.  Locally, I haven't seen anything larger than a
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Thanks,
> Tim

There are, of course, several advantages and disadvantages. There are
several threads in here to the effect of 'why raw?'. You may want to check
them out.

Briefly, raw is more like a negative. In order to print it, for example,
you need to do some processing. It may be nothing more than a
straightforward default conversion, or you may adjust exposure, contrast,
white balance, etc. but you have to do something as most print programs
will not accept raw files - for good reason: every manufacturer has their
own format.

jpeg is a standard. You don't need to do additional processing to get a
printable image - and they are significantly smaller (usually). On the
other hand, the amount of processing you CAN do is somewhat more limited
(one factor being that jpeg is most often 8 bits per channel whereas most
raw formats produce 12 bits per channel, so there is more to work with in
a raw).

I shoot mostly raw with my Kodak P850. I reserve shooting jpeg for
occassions where time is critical - saving raw files on my non-dslr takes
a fair amount of time.
Joel - 27 Jun 2007 18:27 GMT
> I got a 55-200mm zoom lens with my new Pentax K100 digital SLR and want to
> move up a bit in power.  Locally, I haven't seen anything larger than a
> 300mm and I wonder if that's the upper limit for zoom lenses or if it gets
> cost prohobitive for those of us with no plans on making money with our
> photos.  I'd like something closer to 400 or 500 if the price isn't totally
> out of sight.

    Lens is one of the most important parts of photography (gear), so I would
suggest to do more research on the whole lens series before deciding what
camera you going to invest in.

- Camera BODY can be upgraded, but lens you will be stuck with it/them

- When you start investing on hi-end (top_of_the_line) lens, you will find
out that lens is much more expensive that camera body.

    And just like most others, you usually get what you pay for.  Or if you
pay for cheap lens (example $400 vs $5000) then you shouldn't expect much
from it (to me it isn't worth the trouble)

> Next up, until I bought the Pentax, I had never heard of RAW making me
> wonder if it's more of a high end or professionally geared format.  Can/will
> someone clue me in as to whether or not there's any advantage/disadvantage
> to using that format rather than jpeg?

    There is some advantage and disadvantage, or depending on your photography
and retouching skill, your photography style, and your technique etc..

RAW is a least processing format (many people read and believe RAW is
unprocessed format but this ain't true), so you have extra chance to recover
some under/overexposed.

    - RAW converters are not born equally so one may do better/worse or
    different than other.  So if you decide to go for RAW then pick one
    suites your style

    - RAW has limited of some adjustments, so if you don't do detail work then
    RAW could be the right tool for you.  And because it's limited of tools
    so you may be able to master in months.

    I do use RAW but not my bread and butter, and to me *if* something needs
    to be repaired (exposure issue) then may not worth my time.

JPEG, as you know what JPEG is, or with retouching skill (may need years of
experience) then JPEG pretty much can do what RAW can and lot more than what
RAW can.  Or what program like Photoshop it has 300-400% more commands than
most RAW converter, but will require ot of learning.

    No, JPEG can't undo what already processed, but with skill you may even be
able to undo the overexposed already been processed (and much easier if some
data still available, else you may need more trick).

    And I work mostly with JPEG.
Frank Arthur - 27 Jun 2007 18:44 GMT
>I got a 55-200mm zoom lens with my new Pentax K100 digital SLR and
>want to move up a bit in power.  Locally, I haven't seen anything
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Thanks,
> Tim

There ae a number of 500mm mirror lenses for about $100 and i saw a
used 100-500mm f5.6-8.0 Phoenix zoom lens to fit Pentax K mount lens
on ebay very cheap.
Marvin - 28 Jun 2007 16:31 GMT
> I got a 55-200mm zoom lens with my new Pentax K100 digital SLR and want
> to move up a bit in power.  Locally, I haven't seen anything larger than
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Thanks,
> Tim

Keep in mind that you can effectively increase the zoom by
using "digital zoom", which is simply cropping the photo.
Many cameras have this function built in, but you get more
control by doing it in an image editing program.
Joel - 28 Jun 2007 17:34 GMT
> > I got a 55-200mm zoom lens with my new Pentax K100 digital SLR and want
> > to move up a bit in power.  Locally, I haven't seen anything larger than
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Many cameras have this function built in, but you get more
> control by doing it in an image editing program.

    I believe *if* you want to go for quality then digital_zoom usually not a
good idea, and I agree with you that using image editing program usually the
better way.
Randall Ainsworth - 29 Jun 2007 02:41 GMT
> Keep in mind that you can effectively increase the zoom by
> using "digital zoom", which is simply cropping the photo.
> Many cameras have this function built in, but you get more
> control by doing it in an image editing program.

Oh yeah, pixillation is a beautiful thing.
Marvin - 29 Jun 2007 19:07 GMT
>> Keep in mind that you can effectively increase the zoom by
>> using "digital zoom", which is simply cropping the photo.
>> Many cameras have this function built in, but you get more
>> control by doing it in an image editing program.
>
> Oh yeah, pixillation is a beautiful thing.

When you start with lots of Mp, you can crop quite a lot
before you see pixilation.  Of course, it depends on the
print size.  And if you are viewing on a screen as in a Web
site, you can crop even more.
 
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