Photo Forum / General Photo Topics / General Topics / June 2007
Two questions
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TS Mathews - 27 Jun 2007 16:51 GMT I got a 55-200mm zoom lens with my new Pentax K100 digital SLR and want to move up a bit in power. Locally, I haven't seen anything larger than a 300mm and I wonder if that's the upper limit for zoom lenses or if it gets cost prohobitive for those of us with no plans on making money with our photos. I'd like something closer to 400 or 500 if the price isn't totally out of sight.
Next up, until I bought the Pentax, I had never heard of RAW making me wonder if it's more of a high end or professionally geared format. Can/will someone clue me in as to whether or not there's any advantage/disadvantage to using that format rather than jpeg?
Thanks, Tim
DBLEXPOSURE - 27 Jun 2007 17:34 GMT >I got a 55-200mm zoom lens with my new Pentax K100 digital SLR and want to >move up a bit in power. Locally, I haven't seen anything larger than a [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Thanks, > Tim As you start looking at lenses keep in mind, you get what you pay for. There are some inexpensive telephoto and zoom-telephoto lenses out there but as the price goes done so does the quality of the glass and the max aperture. Of course photography is a subjective thing and only you know what level of quality you expect from you photographs and how much money you are willing to spend to achieve that quality.
I can see by the way you describe the lens you received with your camera that you are focusing on the focal length of the lens and not paying attention to the other lens specifications. For example I have a "300mm f/4 L IS USM" The additional information to the right of 300mm is important in describing the lens and its capabilities. if/4, (the max aperture of the lens) is one of the more important specs. typically, as this number gets smaller the price tag goes up exponentially as well as the physical size of the lens.
"L" is Canon's series of low-dispersion glass lenses whisc produce sharper images than the same lenses without the low-dispersion glass. It makes a noticable difference.
"IS" means the lens has servo image stabilization. This allows you to hand hold the lens and slower shutter speeds without having to worry about camera shake effecting the quality of your photos. Without "IS" you are limited the the "1/focal length" rule when hand holding.
"USM" describes the auto-focus drive on this lens, typically, quiter and faster is what you want here.
My point in all this is there is more to take into account when looking at lenses than just focal length and you will want to consider this before you go out and get your self that 1000mm f/11. You might get a days amusment out of it before you realize it dosen't produce the photos you would like it to. You would better better off with your 200mm and using your feet to get closer.
About RAW,
When you shoot in JPG the RAW data captured by the image sensor in your camera get run through a pre-programmed algorithm in you camera as it get converted to a JPG file. This like white balance and exposure are then set in stone and you cannot adjust it after the fact; for many this is perfectly okay. The benefit of JPG is the images are compressed and you can fit many more on your card than you could RAW files.
RAW allows you to tweak the white balance, exposure and other parameters, in fact you can recover to some extent details lost in over exposed images when using RAW. In short RAW gives you more control over your image rather than depending on an algorithm to make those decisions for you. The down side is larger files and extra steps in the post production workflow. In my opinion, neither of these two are much of a big deal, memory is getting cheaper all the time and after you get use to it the RAW processing takes only minutes per image.
I shoot strictly RAW.
Patrick Ziegler www.imagequest.ifp3.com
Pat - 27 Jun 2007 19:05 GMT > >I got a 55-200mm zoom lens with my new Pentax K100 digital SLR and want to > >move up a bit in power. Locally, I haven't seen anything larger than a [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > cheaper all the time and after you get use to it the RAW processing takes > only minutes per image. "Big deal" depend on the quantity you are doing. If it takes "only minutes per image" that is often not a big deal. But last week I shot about 20 images I need to process and next weekend it'll be about 120 images. So 140 images X 2 minutes per image = 280 minutes (say 4.5 hours). That's a big deal for me. I'm already about 2 to 3 hours into post processing to keep everything straight. Heck, I still use the "paper workflow" at the lab and pay an extra $0.25 per image for it rather than doing the "digital workflow" and inputting data myself. If it took me a minute per image, I can pay them the equivalent of $15/hour and let the lab do it. That's a deal you can't beat.
But if you want to sit in front of a computer screen for hours and hours, I guess it's not big deal.
There is a time and a place for RAW, but for most things I don't see the benefit.
> I shoot strictly RAW. > > Patrick Zieglerwww.imagequest.ifp3.com DBLEXPOSURE - 28 Jun 2007 00:43 GMT > "Big deal" depend on the quantity you are doing. If it takes "only > minutes per image" that is often not a big deal. But last week I shot > about 20 images I need to process and next weekend it'll be about 120 > images. So 140 images X 2 minutes per image = 280 minutes (say 4.5 > hours). That's a big deal for me. If I was doing 140 images for a wedding album, four to six hours would not be a big deal, I would expect the entire editing proccess to take eight to 16 hours. If I may ask, what are these 140 images and what is the inteded use?
Patrick Ziegler www.iamgequest.ifp3.com
Pat - 28 Jun 2007 03:51 GMT > > "Big deal" depend on the quantity you are doing. If it takes "only > > minutes per image" that is often not a big deal. But last week I shot [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Patrick Zieglerwww.iamgequest.ifp3.com Youth sports. Memory Mates and that sort of stuff. Good light control because I use a tent to create a shadow (and diffusion) and then balance the backlighting with a flash (also to create eye highlights). I can do a good whitel balance before I start, set the exposure before I do a team, then run through a team in about 20 minutes of shooting. Plus, the lab I use is exceptional so even if the exposure should be off a bit, they can correct it on the fly. But they have pretty strict shooting rules.
Wedding is about the only time I shoot RAW just because of the added latitude -- white dress and black tux, other flashes going off, windows, etc.
RAW is a tool. I use it when I need it and I don't when I don't.
Joel - 28 Jun 2007 05:07 GMT > > > "Big deal" depend on the quantity you are doing. If it takes "only > > > minutes per image" that is often not a big deal. But last week I shot [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > RAW is a tool. I use it when I need it and I don't when I don't. That's my shooting style too. I usually shoot little underexpose to make sure I capture the data, and this can be recovered in few quick seconds with Photoshop. And to me, if anything needs to be repaired (like noise, heavy over/underexposed etc.) then it's already a bad image not worth to spend time repairing a poor quality image (spending lot more time recovery and still not a good IQ).
And for some odd reason I am more comfortable with indoor low-light than outdoor bright-light. And for outdoor I think I do better with P&S than DSLR <bg>
Paul Furman - 27 Jun 2007 21:42 GMT >>I got a 55-200mm zoom lens with my new Pentax K100 digital SLR It looks like that's the Sigma f/4-5.6 DC? $149.00 at B&H
>>and want to >>move up a bit in power. Locally, I haven't seen anything larger than a >>300mm and I wonder if that's the upper limit for zoom lenses or if it gets >>cost prohobitive for those of us with no plans on making money with our >>photos. I'd like something closer to 400 or 500 if the price isn't totally >>out of sight. What I did was get an old manual focus 300mm f/2.8 Tokina. A new stabilized Nikon lens at that aperture would have cost well over $3,000 This lens is good enough to use a teleconverter with too. Stabilization would be great but that's way too much money, I paid $700. I also have a really nice 70-200 f/2.8 stabilized lens that can take a teleconverter and that was over $1200. So that gives you some idea of budget.
more comments below...
>>Next up, until I bought the Pentax, I had never heard of RAW making me >>wonder if it's more of a high end or professionally geared format. [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > to. You would better better off with your 200mm and using your feet to get > closer. In fact you are often going to get better results simply cropping a good 200mm lens than using a cheap 400mm lens, especially when you start throwing teleconverters on mediocre lenses.
> About RAW, > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > I shoot strictly RAW. I shoot RAW+JPEG and often don't bother with the RAW file but it's nice to have it when I need it & I keep them in case I have occasion in the future to do a really nice big print, maybe with a lot of cropping or sometimes you get a great shot but it's overexposed. The cost is needing bigger memory cards & lots of hard drive storage & time downloading.
I use photoshop for raw conversion & more detailed editing. Normally if I want to adjust exposure, raw is simpler to work with (if a bit slower performance) and produces a little better results, and with photoshop, it loads right into the program so the workflow is easy to do a bit of cropping or cloning. Sometimes a whole shoot will come out needing white balance, contrast or exposure correction & this is 10 times easier with RAW. Lots of times I never touch the raw files though. But I keep them.
 Signature Paul Furman Photography http://www.edgehill.net/1 Bay Natives Nursery http://www.baynatives.com
Joel - 27 Jun 2007 22:58 GMT <snip>
> I shoot RAW+JPEG and often don't bother with the RAW file but it's nice > to have it when I need it & I keep them in case I have occasion in the > future to do a really nice big print, maybe with a lot of cropping or > sometimes you get a great shot but it's overexposed. The cost is needing > bigger memory cards & lots of hard drive storage & time downloading. I shot RAW+JPG but mostly work on JPG. RAW, I save for future use (just incase I know more about RAW and can do more than what I can do with JPG at current level) and low-light church's events and similar.
I have plenty of memory and 2 portable strorages (around 120GB total), but because I need to do lot more than RAW has to offer.
> I use photoshop for raw conversion & more detailed editing. Normally if > I want to adjust exposure, raw is simpler to work with (if a bit slower [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > balance, contrast or exposure correction & this is 10 times easier with > RAW. Lots of times I never touch the raw files though. But I keep them. With LightRoom which I am not familar with the interface and its adjustment then I may need around 1 minute or more per photo, but with either ARC or Photoshop I usually don't need more than 20-40 seconds or under 1 min per regular photo. For detail headshot with lot of repairing (damaged skin-texture, winkles, yellow teeth/eyes etc.) then I may need 5-30 minutes or so.
Barry Pearson - 27 Jun 2007 17:40 GMT [snip]
> Next up, until I bought the Pentax, I had never heard of RAW making me > wonder if it's more of a high end or professionally geared format. Can/will > someone clue me in as to whether or not there's any advantage/disadvantage > to using that format rather than jpeg? The question is often asked, "why shoot raw?"
With modern tools, a better question is often "why shoot JPEG?"
With modern tools, for a photographer who expects to do some post- processing, shooting raw can be easier than shooting JPEG. (Guess what I shoot with my Pentaxes!)
-- Barry Pearson http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/photography/
ray - 27 Jun 2007 18:12 GMT > I got a 55-200mm zoom lens with my new Pentax K100 digital SLR and want to > move up a bit in power. Locally, I haven't seen anything larger than a [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Thanks, > Tim There are, of course, several advantages and disadvantages. There are several threads in here to the effect of 'why raw?'. You may want to check them out.
Briefly, raw is more like a negative. In order to print it, for example, you need to do some processing. It may be nothing more than a straightforward default conversion, or you may adjust exposure, contrast, white balance, etc. but you have to do something as most print programs will not accept raw files - for good reason: every manufacturer has their own format.
jpeg is a standard. You don't need to do additional processing to get a printable image - and they are significantly smaller (usually). On the other hand, the amount of processing you CAN do is somewhat more limited (one factor being that jpeg is most often 8 bits per channel whereas most raw formats produce 12 bits per channel, so there is more to work with in a raw).
I shoot mostly raw with my Kodak P850. I reserve shooting jpeg for occassions where time is critical - saving raw files on my non-dslr takes a fair amount of time.
Joel - 27 Jun 2007 18:27 GMT > I got a 55-200mm zoom lens with my new Pentax K100 digital SLR and want to > move up a bit in power. Locally, I haven't seen anything larger than a > 300mm and I wonder if that's the upper limit for zoom lenses or if it gets > cost prohobitive for those of us with no plans on making money with our > photos. I'd like something closer to 400 or 500 if the price isn't totally > out of sight. Lens is one of the most important parts of photography (gear), so I would suggest to do more research on the whole lens series before deciding what camera you going to invest in.
- Camera BODY can be upgraded, but lens you will be stuck with it/them
- When you start investing on hi-end (top_of_the_line) lens, you will find out that lens is much more expensive that camera body.
And just like most others, you usually get what you pay for. Or if you pay for cheap lens (example $400 vs $5000) then you shouldn't expect much from it (to me it isn't worth the trouble)
> Next up, until I bought the Pentax, I had never heard of RAW making me > wonder if it's more of a high end or professionally geared format. Can/will > someone clue me in as to whether or not there's any advantage/disadvantage > to using that format rather than jpeg? There is some advantage and disadvantage, or depending on your photography and retouching skill, your photography style, and your technique etc..
RAW is a least processing format (many people read and believe RAW is unprocessed format but this ain't true), so you have extra chance to recover some under/overexposed.
- RAW converters are not born equally so one may do better/worse or different than other. So if you decide to go for RAW then pick one suites your style
- RAW has limited of some adjustments, so if you don't do detail work then RAW could be the right tool for you. And because it's limited of tools so you may be able to master in months.
I do use RAW but not my bread and butter, and to me *if* something needs to be repaired (exposure issue) then may not worth my time.
JPEG, as you know what JPEG is, or with retouching skill (may need years of experience) then JPEG pretty much can do what RAW can and lot more than what RAW can. Or what program like Photoshop it has 300-400% more commands than most RAW converter, but will require ot of learning.
No, JPEG can't undo what already processed, but with skill you may even be able to undo the overexposed already been processed (and much easier if some data still available, else you may need more trick).
And I work mostly with JPEG.
Frank Arthur - 27 Jun 2007 18:44 GMT >I got a 55-200mm zoom lens with my new Pentax K100 digital SLR and >want to move up a bit in power. Locally, I haven't seen anything [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Thanks, > Tim There ae a number of 500mm mirror lenses for about $100 and i saw a used 100-500mm f5.6-8.0 Phoenix zoom lens to fit Pentax K mount lens on ebay very cheap.
Marvin - 28 Jun 2007 16:31 GMT > I got a 55-200mm zoom lens with my new Pentax K100 digital SLR and want > to move up a bit in power. Locally, I haven't seen anything larger than [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Thanks, > Tim Keep in mind that you can effectively increase the zoom by using "digital zoom", which is simply cropping the photo. Many cameras have this function built in, but you get more control by doing it in an image editing program.
Joel - 28 Jun 2007 17:34 GMT > > I got a 55-200mm zoom lens with my new Pentax K100 digital SLR and want > > to move up a bit in power. Locally, I haven't seen anything larger than [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Many cameras have this function built in, but you get more > control by doing it in an image editing program. I believe *if* you want to go for quality then digital_zoom usually not a good idea, and I agree with you that using image editing program usually the better way.
Randall Ainsworth - 29 Jun 2007 02:41 GMT > Keep in mind that you can effectively increase the zoom by > using "digital zoom", which is simply cropping the photo. > Many cameras have this function built in, but you get more > control by doing it in an image editing program. Oh yeah, pixillation is a beautiful thing.
Marvin - 29 Jun 2007 19:07 GMT >> Keep in mind that you can effectively increase the zoom by >> using "digital zoom", which is simply cropping the photo. >> Many cameras have this function built in, but you get more >> control by doing it in an image editing program. > > Oh yeah, pixillation is a beautiful thing. When you start with lots of Mp, you can crop quite a lot before you see pixilation. Of course, it depends on the print size. And if you are viewing on a screen as in a Web site, you can crop even more.
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