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Photo Forum / General Photo Topics / General Topics / April 2007Underage Model
There is a 17-year-old girl who wants to model for me. Her mother is willing to sign the model release, but it is my policy to have a parent present at the shoot, and the mother is not willing to do that. The model suggest that she bring another adult with her. Anyone see any problems with that?  SignatureAlan > There is a 17-year-old girl who wants to model for me. Her mother is > willing to sign the model release, but it is my policy to have a parent > present at the shoot, and the mother is not willing to do that. The model > suggest that she bring another adult with her. Anyone see any problems > with > that? Is this a troll......? NO way. >> There is a 17-year-old girl who wants to model for me. Her mother is >> willing to sign the model release, but it is my policy to have a parent >> present at the shoot, and the mother is not willing to do that. The model >> suggest that she bring another adult with her. Anyone see any problems >> with >> that? > Is this a troll......? > NO way. Doesn't sound like it. Is 17 underage for modelling when it's fine for any other job? I am assuming that the modelling is not glamour or porn, of course... >>> There is a 17-year-old girl who wants to model for me. Her mother is >>> willing to sign the model release, but it is my policy to have a parent [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > other job? I am assuming that the modelling is not glamour or porn, of > course... That's not the point. The point is she is 17 and goes alone there. Afterwards, she can say anything... who's to prove differently? Marcel >>>> There is a 17-year-old girl who wants to model for me. Her mother is >>>> willing to sign the model release, but it is my policy to have a parent [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >>> Is this a troll......? >>> NO way. >> Doesn't sound like it. Is 17 underage for modelling when it's fine for any >> other job? I am assuming that the modelling is not glamour or porn, of >> course... > That's not the point. > The point is she is 17 and goes alone there. > Afterwards, she can say anything... who's to prove differently? > Marcel So you're saying that nobody can spend time with a 17-year old in any context without an accompanying parent? What can she say that she can't say under any other circumstance? What if he was employing her as an assistant instead of model? >>>>> There is a 17-year-old girl who wants to model for me. Her mother is >>>>> willing to sign the model release, but it is my policy to have a [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > What can she say that she can't say under any other circumstance? What if > he was employing her as an assistant instead of model? All I'm saying is that nowadays, things are different... The problem isn't that she'd be a model, but the fact that she would be alone with him. I know. It's stupid, but so's our times... Carved in mystic runes upon the very living rock, the last words of Celcius of alt.photography make plain: >>>> There is a 17-year-old girl who wants to model for me. Her mother >>>> is willing to sign the model release, but it is my policy to have a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >>> Is this a troll......? No, but thanks for asking. >> Doesn't sound like it. Is 17 underage for modelling when it's fine >> for any other job? I am assuming that the modelling is not glamour or >> porn, of course... Right. > That's not the point. > The point is she is 17 and goes alone there. > Afterwards, she can say anything... who's to prove differently? That's the reason for the accompanying adult (see the part about "...bring another adult with her.") I also will have an assistant present. SignatureAlan > Carved in mystic runes upon the very living rock, the last words of > Celcius of alt.photography make plain: [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > -- > Alan Set up a video camera and a clock. When she comes in, have her stand there with the release in hand, state her name, address, DOB. then bring in the release to capture that. Don't tell her (or make her feel) that it's because you don't trust her. Say it's because of "copyright" issues or "insurance" or "it's requred because I'm a member of NAARSU" etc. If you're not scared and you're acting like it's routine, then she'll think it's routine. then just keep the camera running as you do you shoot and for a while after she leaves. If nothing untowards happens, she won't then make anything up because she's aware of the videotaping. Heck, you wouldn't even really need tape in the camera for it to works. OTOH, if something untoward happens, you're then pretty much SOL. > Set up a video camera and a clock. When she comes in, have her stand > there with the release in hand, state her name, address, DOB. then [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > tape in the camera for it to works. OTOH, if something untoward > happens, you're then pretty much SOL. The video camera scenario is what I'd suggest as well. However, I wouldn't even dress it up and make excuses, I'd just be straight with her from the word go that it was for both of your (our) protection and she could gladly have a copy of the tape along with her portfolio shots once the deal is done. If she's moody about this then she's probably too immature to be entering into the modelling world and as such I would politely suggest she make alternate arrangements. If she *really* protests loudly about the camera then IMHO you have your answer as to what would probably follow after the session and you would be an idiot to proceed. Let's see... an under age girl is going to be at a photo shoot with an adult male and the MOTHER, in this day and age, doesn't want to be there? Hmmm.. how about this.... You do the shoot. Mother denies knowing about it (signed release or not).... you get sued or arrested. Better yet.. under age girl says you tried to... well.. use your imagination. This would have alarm bells going off in my head. If you go ahead with this be sure to have a witness of YOUR choosing present as well to preclude this underage girl and her "friend" from setting you up. Better yet... keep all activity in a public place. Just that fact that you even thought that you might have to be concerned should be enough to say "no thanks"... JMHO Glen > Let's see... an under age girl is going to be at a photo shoot with an adult > male and the MOTHER, in this day and age, doesn't want to be there? > Hmmm.. how about this.... You do the shoot. Mother denies knowing about it > (signed release or not).... you get sued or arrested. Better yet.. under > age girl says you tried > to... well.. use your imagination. > This would have alarm bells going off in my head. If you go ahead with this > be sure to have a witness of YOUR choosing present as well to preclude > this underage girl and her "friend" from setting you up. Better yet... keep > all activity in a public place. > Just that fact that you even thought that you might have to be concerned > should be enough to say "no thanks"... > JMHO > Glen Sorry, I'm trying to understand the problem here. What do you mean by "underage"? WTF is the question? If she was 30 wouldn't she still be able to claim anything against you? Why is a 17 year old adult different to any other? Are 17-year-olds unable to refrain from making false accusations? Carved in mystic runes upon the very living rock, the last words of Richard Polhill of alt.photography make plain: >> Let's see... an under age girl is going to be at a photo shoot with >> an adult male and the MOTHER, in this day and age, doesn't want to be >> there? Yeah, I know what you mean. I get the impression Mom isn't too concerned about what happens with her kids. >> Hmmm.. how about this.... You do the shoot. Mother denies knowing >> about it (signed release or not).... I don't think I'll go so far as to have her signature notarized, but I will have a copy of her photo ID, and I will witness her signing the release, as will my assistant. >> you get sued or arrested. Better yet.. under age girl says you tried >> to... well.. use your imagination. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Sorry, I'm trying to understand the problem here. What do you mean by > "underage"? Below the legal age of consent -- 18 in most places. > WTF is the question? If she was 30 wouldn't she still be able to claim > anything against you? Why is a 17 year old adult different to any > other? Are 17-year-olds unable to refrain from making false > accusations? Logically, you're correct, but these days public opinion with regard to children is anything but logical -- a lot of hysteria has been stirred up. I really don't foresee a problem with her making any claims; I've interviewed her and she seems pretty sincere. I think with reasonable precautions it should be fine. Thanks to everyone for the feedback. SignatureAlan > Carved in mystic runes upon the very living rock, the last words of > Richard Polhill of alt.photography make plain: >>> Let's see... an under age girl is going to be at a photo shoot with >>> an adult male and the MOTHER, in this day and age, doesn't want to be >>> there? > Yeah, I know what you mean. I get the impression Mom isn't too concerned > about what happens with her kids. >>> Hmmm.. how about this.... You do the shoot. Mother denies knowing >>> about it (signed release or not).... > I don't think I'll go so far as to have her signature notarized, but I > will have a copy of her photo ID, and I will witness her signing the > release, as will my assistant. >>> you get sued or arrested. Better yet.. under age girl says you tried >>> to... well.. use your imagination. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> Sorry, I'm trying to understand the problem here. What do you mean by >> "underage"? > Below the legal age of consent -- 18 in most places. For a given and very specialized value of "most", obviously. >> WTF is the question? If she was 30 wouldn't she still be able to claim >> anything against you? Why is a 17 year old adult different to any >> other? Are 17-year-olds unable to refrain from making false >> accusations? > Logically, you're correct, but these days public opinion with regard to > children is anything but logical -- a lot of hysteria has been stirred > up. Again, a different and very specialized value of "child". > I really don't foresee a problem with her making any claims; I've > interviewed her and she seems pretty sincere. I think with reasonable > precautions it should be fine. > Thanks to everyone for the feedback. Carved in mystic runes upon the very living rock, the last words of Richard Polhill of alt.photography make plain: >> Carved in mystic runes upon the very living rock, the last words of >> Richard Polhill of alt.photography make plain: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Again, a different and very specialized value of "child". Well however different and specialized it might be, it applies to where I live, hence my interest. I'm concerned with potential legal issues, not with what's moral or logical, since law often has little connection with logic or morality. SignatureAlan "Richard Polhill" <richard.news@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote in message news:cd061$461f7d42 > For a given and very specialized value of "most", obviously. > >>> WTF is the question? If she was 30 wouldn't she still be able to claim >>> anything against you? Why is a 17 year old adult different to any >>> other? Are 17-year-olds unable to refrain from making false >>> accusations? 17 year olds aren't considered adults, that's the problem. And the fact that if he is more that 36 months older than her, she can claim anything and it be considered abuse. The laws for things like that are good to protect kids, etc, but unfortunately that is the society we live in too that someone has to worry about that. But you are right, someone who was 30 could make the same claims and it would be his word against hers. But in this situation, it would be his word against the girls and the girl's mother, father, and whoever else she told. B-Worthey > Carved in mystic runes upon the very living rock, the last words of > Richard Polhill of alt.photography make plain: > > Sorry, I'm trying to understand the problem here. What do you mean by > > "underage"? > > Below the legal age of consent -- 18 in most places. Not in most of Europe, but I don't see that it's particularly relevant anyway. If an allegation of sexual assault were made then the I wouldn't have thought the age of the alleged victim would make much difference, except to the statute that was used for the prosecution - if it was a charge of statutory rape then the prosecution wouldn't need to prove that it was non-consensual, but either way they'd have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the incident had actually taken place. It might be wise to use a female makeup/lighting assistant, but other than that I wouldn't worry about it. Alan.. I don't mean to be harsh (really) but have you been living under a rock? We live in a society (these days) where you can get in a world of trouble even tho' you are totally inoccent. We frequently use a baby sitter so that my wife and I can go out. I DO NOT PICK UP OR DROP OFF THE teenage FEMALE sitter without my wife being present... period! I'm not a pervert, and find even the thought of taking advantage of a minor repugnant. However, there are TONS of men out there who's lives have been ruined by the whim of an immature "underage" girl. You ask what the difference is between doing something wrong with a girl below the legal age and an adult. Simple. In this day and age all a young girl has to do is "claim" you did something. Whether you did or not... your life is ruined. Have you ever listened to a teenage girl yapping on a phone? All she has to do is 'brag' to a girlfriend that she did something in a photoshoot that she really didn't do... wham! You do read the paper right? If the MOTHER of this girl doesn't want to be responsible, then why in heavens name would any of you?? JMHO Glen > There is a 17-year-old girl who wants to model for me. Her mother is > willing to sign the model release, but it is my policy to have a parent > present at the shoot, and the mother is not willing to do that. The model > suggest that she bring another adult with her. Anyone see any problems with > that? AFAIK models have to be at least 18 if you are intending to shoot pornography. If you aren't going to do that, but want to shoot glamour, with clothes on, then 17 is ok. You really have two questions here. Above is one of them. The other is the possibility of the model, of any age, claiming you touched, groped, assaulted in any way, or even just made off-color remarks, and sinking you for sexual assault. To prevent this, you could have a wide-angle video running, with a clock with sweep second hand in the frame to prove no editing took place, but preferably a witness or chaperone for your protection, preferably female, both to set the model's mind at ease, and to circumvent any claim that two males had a go at her. A person brought by the model would be more likely to side with her in any dispute, which wouldn't help you at all. And a dispute could easily arise because of a misunderstood posing suggestion or remark. Colin D. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Carved in mystic runes upon the very living rock, the last words of Colin_D of alt.photography make plain: >> There is a 17-year-old girl who wants to model for me. Her mother is >> willing to sign the model release, but it is my policy to have a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > AFAIK models have to be at least 18 if you are intending to shoot > pornography. I'm not, although the model does want to do topless. I think I'll just do a basic shoot to begin with and see how that goes, then take it from there. I also had a 16-year-old respond to my ad, wanting to do nude. I'm not too sure about that. If I had David Hamilton's credibility, maybe. > You really have two questions here. Above is one of them. The other > is the possibility of the model, of any age, claiming you touched, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > model's mind at ease, and to circumvent any claim that two males had a > go at her. I may or may not go with the video; I definitely will have another female present. SignatureAlan <snip> > > AFAIK models have to be at least 18 if you are intending to shoot > > pornography. > > I'm not, although the model does want to do topless. I think I'll just > do a basic shoot to begin with and see how that goes, then take it from > there. <snip> I have had some feeling that the fairy tale was probably more than what the book says <bg> .. Me, if the law says NO then it doesn't matter if her mommy is with her or not, or even the whole town with her you still have to deal with the law. And if you don't do anything the law not allow you to do then you don't need any mommy. <snip> > I'm not, although the model does want to do topless. Being 17 and topless is (or at least used to be) considered compelling evidence of statutory rape in many juristictions in the U.S. Personally I would walk away, but that situation (topless photography of a 17 YO) would be something that would give me more trouble with my wife than the courts could ever dish out. =8-O Austin (not wanting to sing in a higher register...) Carved in mystic runes upon the very living rock, the last words of AustinMN of alt.photography make plain: > <snip> >> >> I'm not, although the model does want to do topless. > > Being 17 and topless is (or at least used to be) considered compelling > evidence of statutory rape in many juristictions in the U.S. I kind of doubt that, but it's possible. However, it isn't now. Even full nudity isn't a problem, so long as it isn't pornographic -- witness Hamilton, Sturges and Mann. And nudist publications have been showing adults and children of all ages for many years. Anyway, that's not really an issue at this point. I'm not going to do the topless session now, if ever. My concern was about not having a parent present at the shoot. I think I'll go ahead with it, and just have an adult of her choosing, plus a female assistant. I may or may not go with the video camera. Thanks again to all who responded. SignatureAlan Little > Carved in mystic runes upon the very living rock, the last words of > AustinMN of alt.photography make plain: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > -- > Alan Little You know, if you're that worried you should NOT have her have an assistant there. If it's just the two of you (topless or wearing parkas) if she wants to make a fuss she can. Then it's the typical he said/she said. If she brings a friend or parent, then there's a WITNESS and the witness won't side with you. So if you have reason to be scared, then don't do it. > Carved in mystic runes upon the very living rock, the last words of > AustinMN of alt.photography make plain: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Thanks again to all who responded. Well, if you strongly believe it's normal and it's ok then I would say go ahead to do what's right. > >> There is a 17-year-old girl who wants to model for me. Her mother is > >> willing to sign the model release, but it is my policy to have a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I also had a 16-year-old respond to my ad, wanting to do nude. I'm not > too sure about that. If I had David Hamilton's credibility, maybe. I know I already responded to this, but I just thought of something else. What kinds of things did your ad mention? I'm wondering if the "model" is really a police employee posing as a 17 year old with the intention of showing some prosecutor is tough on child pornographers - you. Remember that with "children," the U.S. courts have a very different view of what is and is not pornography. Austin > There is a 17-year-old girl who wants to model for me. Her mother is > willing to sign the model release, but it is my policy to have a parent > present at the shoot, and the mother is not willing to do that. The model > suggest that she bring another adult with her. Anyone see any problems > with > that? Just be safe rather than sorry. Don't make exceptions to critical policies regarding minors under the age of 18. A parent or Legal Guardian who can sign the model release must be present at the shoot. Having an assistant not affiliated or related to them also covers you from "he says, she says", situations. No need to video or tape record the shoot. Also, don't take pictures of the minor that can be construed in any way, shape or, form as "inappropriate" for the minor's age. I am a photographer as well as a mom and if *my* daughter wanted to do topless photography with a male photographer, I would deffinately want to be there with her. Something about the composition of this picture is not cool. I wouldn't touch this one with a ten foot cattle prod. Just my $0.02 Ky Poillon > There is a 17-year-old girl who wants to model for me. Her mother is > willing to sign the model release, but it is my policy to have a parent > present at the shoot, and the mother is not willing to do that. The model > suggest that she bring another adult with her. Anyone see any problems with > that? If there is that much concern, why do it? Why spend time trying to protect yourself. Just don't do it. no problems if your intentions are safe and her mother can write a letter of agree good luck and greetings from onyx > There is a 17-year-old girl who wants to model for me. Her mother is > willing to sign the model release, but it is my policy to have a parent > present at the shoot, and the mother is not willing to do that. The model > suggest that she bring another adult with her. Anyone see any problems with > that? I have done a few shots like this. No problems so far. As long as the parent knows the other adult. |
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