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low light
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ipy2006 - 07 Mar 2007 12:03 GMT I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the best DSLR for this purpose? Thanks, Yip
ASAAR - 07 Mar 2007 12:58 GMT On 7 Mar 2007 04:03:00 -0800, Yip quipped:
> I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the > best DSLR for this purpose? It's never just a matter of getting the best DSLR for the purpose. It's a DSLR body + lens combination that must be considered, as well as the low light level and specific types of actions you need to shoot. Some combinations will be so demanding that there may not be a suitable solution. Others may be so easy that almost any DSLR will do. If you can determine the minimum gear that will suffice, you can save a lot of money buying a body and lens(es). If you don't know but have enough money to burn, you could start with a Canon 5D and see if that and a typical "kit" lens gets you what you need. If not, you might need to spend about $1000 or even several thousand dollars getting a better lens if the kit lens proves inadequate. If your sports shooting demands long bursts of shots at very high frame rates, you might need to get a much more expensive body than the 5D, ie, one of the "pro" bodies from Canon or Nikon.
You gave no information at all as to the kind of action photos you'll be shooting or in what kind of low light levels. If you can tell us what they are, you might get some concrete examples of what kind of DSLR will meet your needs. Which brings up another point. You really want to know what kind of cameras will be suitable. You don't want to ask what the BEST DSLR is, because the "best" for one person won't be the best for another, and the absolute "best" for *you* might be $8,000 above your budget, whereas a $1,200 camera with kit lens might do everything you're looking for, and would be good enough. Care to share which camera(s) you're currently using, if any?
ipy2006 - 07 Mar 2007 13:42 GMT > On 7 Mar 2007 04:03:00 -0800, Yip quipped: > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > good enough. Care to share which camera(s) you're currently using, > if any? Here are some scenarios, Indoor shooting of people talking with hand gestures, people walking or pacing in the room, kids playing, women cooking in kitchen, or groups of people in meeting rooms etc. Sometimes I don't have the ability to use lights, I need to depend on flash and high brightness setting. Currently, I am using a Sony Digital Camera, Cyber-shot, DSC- H2. My budget is $1000 and at the most $1500.
I read some review that Canon Eos Digital Rebel xTi DSLR is good low lighting. Nikon D80 was good but the article said more as a available- light camera.
Please comment.
Thanks, yip
bworthey - 07 Mar 2007 13:50 GMT > Here are some scenarios, > Indoor shooting of people talking with hand gestures, people walking [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Please comment. From what it sounds like with the situations you described there will be some sort of lighting source, not like the people are in complete darkness or anything or not lights on in the house/room at all. I have teh Canon XTI and I have been suprised wtih the situations where I have not had to use the flash at all, with just appropriate adjustment with shutter, aperture, and white balance I have gotten some really good pictures.
B-Worthey
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 07 Mar 2007 14:17 GMT > Here are some scenarios, > Indoor shooting of people talking with hand gestures, people walking [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > setting. Currently, I am using a Sony Digital Camera, Cyber-shot, DSC- > H2. My budget is $1000 and at the most $1500. What, you don't take pictures of men cooking in the kitchen?
> I read some review that Canon Eos Digital Rebel xTi DSLR is good low > lighting. Nikon D80 was good but the article said more as a available- > light camera. > > Please comment. The rebel xti (400D) has smaller pixels than other rebel cameras, 5.7 microns) (and smaller than many other DSLRs). I don't have data on the xti, but can see on Figure 6 at http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/digital.sensor.performance.summary that plotting at 5.7 microns in the gray band, the performance would probably be below most other DSLRs on the plot. (If you can't see the gray band on the plot, your monitor is set too bright/too high contrast.)
Roger
ASAAR - 07 Mar 2007 15:32 GMT > Here are some scenarios, > Indoor shooting of people talking with hand gestures, people walking [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Please comment. I have no idea what the review meant. I'd take referring to a camera as "good low lighting" and "more as a available light camera" to be the same thing, both seem to be praising the camera's low (available) light ability. Both are good cameras, and well within your budget, leaving enough room left over to get a good flash. But the cameras that they replaced are probably better from a low light standpoint, because these (Canon's 350D and Nikon's D50), using the same size sensors, have fewer, larger pixels. This makes them able to collect more light and for the same high ISO setting, produce less "noise". Canon claims that despite having smaller pixels, the 400D is no noisier than the 350D, based on using better electronics, but I'd guess that the difference is slight, and whatever difference there is, the advantage would probably be to the 350D. I think that the 350D and D50 do at least as well in low light and perhaps better than their newer, more expensive siblings.
These older models are still available new, and you can get them for many hundreds of dollars less than the current models. The "kit" lenses for these cameras are usually something like 18mm-55mm and are very inexpensive. These lenses would probably be well suited for some of the slower activities you mentioned - women cooking, people in a meeting room, maybe people walking and pacing, etc. With the money saved by not going for the more expensive 400D or D80, there's a slim chance that you *might* be able to afford a longer, faster, and unfortunately heavier f/2.8 zoom, that would be ideal for capturing fast moving pets, children playing, some sports activities, etc. B&H has the D50 body in stock for $450 (new) and $400 (used). The 350D is $488 (new). Nikon's recent "budget" DSLR, the D40 is quite similar to the D50, and it's main limitation wouldn't be a limitation for you. It won't autofocus with old Nikon lenses. B&H has it for $570, and this includes Nikon's 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 kit lens. Add the same or a similar lens to the D50 or 350D and the price will be in the same ball park. This would leave your budget with just under $1000 remaining. That could be put to very good use if these lenses aren't suitable for collecting lots of light. You'd be all set if a fixed length lens of about 50mm would do, since an f/1.4 or f/1.8 lens is fairly inexpensive. If you need a longer lens, then you'd want to look for one that has an f/2.8 aperture, but the prices for these rise rapidly. Longer f/2.8 zoom lenses are probably well beyond your budget.
Paul Furman - 07 Mar 2007 15:58 GMT > These older models are still available new, and you can get them > for many hundreds of dollars less than the current models. The [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > aperture, but the prices for these rise rapidly. Longer f/2.8 zoom > lenses are probably well beyond your budget. I think he will need a wider lens for groups of people in a kitchen unless it's a huge kitchen. I initially only saw the $1000 budget but with $1500 he could get a Nikon D50, Sigma 30mm f/1.4 and 18-70mm lenses. I don't know the Canon options as well.
ASAAR - 08 Mar 2007 01:48 GMT > I think he will need a wider lens for groups of people in a kitchen > unless it's a huge kitchen. I initially only saw the $1000 budget but > with $1500 he could get a Nikon D50, Sigma 30mm f/1.4 and 18-70mm > lenses. I don't know the Canon options as well. It depends on the kitchen. Mine might need an ultra-wide. :) For many, 18mm is probably wide enough. A turkey in a pan isn't going to be as quick as a toddler in the living room or a frisky pet, and if the rest of the shot is sharp, the slight blur of a stirring spoon might even be desirable. If the kitchen is small and dim, then the Sigma 30mm f/1.4 might be a good addition, but I'd hold off on it for at least long enough to find out if the 18-70mm lens's aperture is too small. A bigger problem in cramped quarters will be dealing with harsh and very uneven lighting if a flash has to be used, but dealing with that can come later, as I don't think that the solutions would be effected very much by the choices of DSLR body and lenses, as long as there's enough left in the budget.
Paul Furman - 07 Mar 2007 15:35 GMT > Here are some scenarios, > Indoor shooting of people talking with hand gestures, people walking [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Please comment. For that budget, a Nikon D50 or Canon XTI with a Sigma 30mm f/1.4 lens. The fixed focal length gets you faster, wider aperture and that's the appropriate normal focal length for home sized rooms indoor groups of people.
John Sheehy - 07 Mar 2007 22:30 GMT "ipy2006" <ipyasaswi@gmail.com> wrote in news:1173274977.039356.148330 @h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
> I read some review that Canon Eos Digital Rebel xTi DSLR is good low > lighting. Nikon D80 was good but the article said more as a available- > light camera. I agree that the XTi is "good" in low light; it's better than older Canons like the 10D and 300D, and better than most current CCD DSLRs from other manufacturers, but it is still a good notch below the 30D. The read noise of the 30D is 0.6 stops lower in ADUs (RAW levels), and the XTi is 0.5 stop less sensitive (RAW signal for a fixed illumination and exposure). The XTi and 30D both meter for approximately 120% of the stated ISO, but the XTi winds up with an extra 0.5 stops of headroom. So. all told, the practical noise floor is 1.1 stops higher with the XTi, for the same real (not metered) exposure.
The XTi seems to be a better imager at ISOs 100 and 200, though, with more pixels and less read noise.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< John Sheehy - 08 Mar 2007 22:10 GMT > So. all told, the practical noise floor > is 1.1 stops higher with the XTi, for the same real (not metered) > exposure. I made a distinction there, but in this specific case, both meter about the same, anyway.
> The XTi seems to be a better imager at ISOs 100 and 200, though, with > more pixels and less read noise. This is in the sense that the XTi has a lower noise floor than any Canon DSLRs except the 1-series at ISOs 100 and 200, relative to maximum signal.
If you let the camera meter the scene without an extra 1/2 stop of EC, there will be more noise in the shadows in the XTi. Fortunately, the -2 contrast setting in the XTi recognizes this extra headroom, and rolls it well into the JPEGs, so a white or green highlight clips in the review and histogram just barely below where the RAW data does, so you can use the histogram to feel out white and green RAW highlights.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< John Smith - 17 Mar 2007 21:00 GMT >> On 7 Mar 2007 04:03:00 -0800, Yip quipped: >> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > setting. Currently, I am using a Sony Digital Camera, Cyber-shot, DSC- > H2. My budget is $1000 and at the most $1500. When you say "hand gestures" you mean they get angry if you use a flash or other additional light source?
Sounds like you're going to be working in a confined area. If you don't need the long reach of a zoom, you might want to consider something like the Nikon D40, throw away the kit lens, and buy a 50mm 1.8 (about 100$give or take) Nice fast lens, and the camera is getting good reviews for higher ISO shootin'.
I'm going to order one myself tomorrow night.
DP
Dr. Joel M. Hoffman - 07 Mar 2007 23:27 GMT >> I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the >> best DSLR for this purpose? > >Canon 5D and see if that and a typical "kit" lens gets you what you >need. If not, you might need to spend about $1000 or even several You don't need to spend $1,000 for a lens that does better in low light than the kit lens. A good 50mm prime will do very well in low light. And the Canon 30D does amazingly well at ISO1600.
On the other hand, if you're taking pictures in low light of things that aren't moving, and if you can't use a tripod, then the slower IS lenses (17-85, e.g.) may be better than the 50mm prime.
For that matter, if you you really have VERY little light, then nothing will help.
But basically, the Canons do a bit better under low light than the Nikons, and you want as fast a lens as you can afford.
-Joel
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tomm42 - 07 Mar 2007 13:33 GMT > I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the > best DSLR for this purpose? > Thanks, > Yip I'd look at a Canon 30D, about the best for a reason able price, the Canon 5D is better but 3X (approx) the price. Canons seem to have a heavier in camera noise reduction than the cameras with a Sony sensor. Remember you won't get by with a kit lens here. If you are in school gyms, swimming pools etc you will neeed at least an f2.8 lens. A 70-200 f2.8 pushes $2K. If you buy single focal length lenses 85 - 135mm should cover what you need, just look at lenses that are f1.4- f2.8, price escalate dramaticly after 135mm. Some claim they get by with a fast 50mm, doesn't seem long enough for me. An 85 f1.8 or a 135 f2 should be good lenses to look at, depending on the distance of the action. Just calculate what f-stop and ISO can get you to a shutter speed of at least 1/250 of a second. Vibration reduction will be of minimal usefulness you should be at shutter speeds that don't need it and the blur will come from the action.
Tom
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 07 Mar 2007 14:04 GMT >> I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the >> best DSLR for this purpose? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Canon 5D is better but 3X (approx) the price. Canons seem to have a > heavier in camera noise reduction than the cameras with a Sony sensor. Not quite. Canon sensors have inherently low noise at low signal levels. Noise reduction implies some method of reducing noise, and that can only be done by averaging pixels to reduce spatial resolution. One can do that in software in post processing. It helps to have a good low noise/high signal system to begin with.
See: Digital Cameras: Does Pixel Size Matter? Factors in Choosing a Digital Camera http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/does.pixel.size.matter
Digital Camera Sensor Performance Summary http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/digital.sensor.performance.summary
For the OP: choose a camera with the largest pixels and the lowest read noise. The two relevant plots on the digital.sensor.performance.summary web page are Figure 3 (lower on the plot is better), Figure 6 (higher on the plot is better) and Figure 7 (higher = better).
> Remember you won't get by with a kit lens here. If you are in school > gyms, swimming pools etc you will neeed at least an f2.8 lens. A [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > shutter speeds that don't need it and the blur will come from the > action. For indoor action shots, a 50mm f/1.8 lens is very low cost (about %70) and very high performance. Remember, on a 1.6x crop camera, 50 mm is like 80 mm on a full frame camera regarding full field of view.
Roger
DeanB - 07 Mar 2007 14:23 GMT On Mar 7, 9:04 am, "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <usern...@qwest.net> wrote:
> >> I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the > >> best DSLR for this purpose? [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > Roger This (1.2) would be a lens to save up for in your situation:
http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelDetailAct&fcategoryid=152& modelid=12926
But the 1.4's are about $900 to $1000.
ipy2006 - 07 Mar 2007 14:35 GMT > On Mar 7, 9:04 am, "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" > [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Thank you all for your feedback. Yip
Skip - 07 Mar 2007 14:20 GMT >I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the > best DSLR for this purpose? > Thanks, > Yip Probably the best DSLR for your purpose would be the upcoming Canon 1D mkIII, it shoots 10 fps, has a "silent mode," an ISO range up to3200 expandable to 6400. That being said, a appropriate lens is critical to the equation. Depending on what the subject is, a 70-200 f2.8 zoom or a fixed focal length lens like the 100 f2, 85 f1.8 or 85 f1.2 could be excellent choices. Notice, when you say "best," without saying what you're budget is, the best is expensive, the body will probably be in the $4000+ range, the 70-200 f2.8 is about $1600, and the 85 f1.2 is about $1200.
 Signature Skip Middleton www.shadowcatcherimagery.com www.pbase.com/skipm
imaphotophan@yahoo.com - 07 Mar 2007 14:54 GMT > I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the > best DSLR for this purpose? > Thanks, > Yip I've had about a year with DSLRs after a few years with higher end digitals. I made the transition due to similar circumstances - the family and friends refused to stay still in bright light while i was awake.
Here's the best piece of advice I've been told by a coupl eof people and experience is confirming this: "It's all about the lenses"
Unlike a lot of consumer electronic devices where the base unit is important rather than the peripherals, DSLRs aren't quite the same way. Lens end up being more important because: 1) The optics determine quality to a large extent. I didn't say all or 99% or anything else is trivial. But the glass is a huge factor. 2) The lenses will outlive the body. Especially digital bodies where technology changes and improves so rapidly. Even in the film age, the investment ended up in lenses. 3) Lenses largely determine how much light is needed for a good shot. 4) You can always start with a lower level body and a great set of lenses and get great pics in tough lighting situations immediately. Great body but mediocre kit lenses will leave you in the same situation as with many point-and-shoot cameras today - just can't do it. Kit lenses are rarely good enough to use in low light situations.
My recommendations, to be taken as a rough and still a bit not fully informed opinion... I have a Canon 400D so I'm only going to talk about things I have *some* idea about. Again, you are going to have to do your own research despite what any of us says.
Lenses: Tamron SP AF17-50mm F/2.8 XR Di-II LD Aspherical - for close to normal indoor shots, and outdoor shots within talking distance. And the everyday, always on default lens. Canon EF 85mm f/1.2L II USM - the classic, very good 3-4x-ish telephoto lens for low light situations, from portrait to kid sports (after the first two and the body, we have:) Canon EF 70 - 300mm f4.5-5.6 DO IS USM - for extended telephoto shots
Body: Start with a good used 300D or 350D. The 350D would be a good choice as the 400D is more or less 350D with a couple of extra near- superfluous megapixels and a cleaning system (very nice but we're trying to conserve dollars here for lenses and accessories). Certainly a XTi (400D) is a good choice but I'm concerned about the budgetary restraints you gave. Again, invest in lenses - you can swap bodies out later. I've done one swap out from a used 300D to a new XTi.
Don;t forget the key essentials.... flash (search for 430EX, vivitar flash, sunpak flash), and a good tripod. there's another $200-400! But with the flash, you can settle for using cheaper 3rd party items at th beginning. But preferable to buy new. And a travel case. $25-50.
Nikon is another good choice to Canon since they have a nice huge selection of lenses to choose from - including 3rd parties. Perhaps the Nikkoners can provide some detailed recommendations here.
Rutger - 07 Mar 2007 14:54 GMT >I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the > best DSLR for this purpose? > Thanks, > Yip The one with the biggest sensor. And wit biggest i mean in millimetres, NOT in megapixels. The bigger the sensor, the lower the noise, which will certainly occur when shooting in low light.
Rutger
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ray - 07 Mar 2007 15:53 GMT > I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the > best DSLR for this purpose? > Thanks, > Yip I should think the 'best' solution would be a film SLR with high speed film. I don't think the practical ISO ranges available on DSLRs yet match what is available with film.
nospam - 07 Mar 2007 16:12 GMT > I should think the 'best' solution would be a film SLR with high speed > film. I don't think the practical ISO ranges available on DSLRs yet match > what is available with film. digital is *much* better than film at high iso.
Rutger - 07 Mar 2007 17:03 GMT >> I should think the 'best' solution would be a film SLR with high speed >> film. I don't think the practical ISO ranges available on DSLRs yet match >> what is available with film. > > digital is *much* better than film at high iso. That is *very much* dependand by brand.
Rutger
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acl - 07 Mar 2007 22:44 GMT > > In article <pan.2007.03.07.15.53.05.559...@zianet.com>, ray > > <r...@zianet.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > That is *very much* dependand by brand. Well, can you name a film that is better than the Nikon D200 at, say, ISO 1600? (noise is not its strongest point).
Or do you mean something like "sensor/pixel size" by brand?
Floyd L. Davidson - 07 Mar 2007 23:37 GMT >>> I should think the 'best' solution would be a film SLR with high speed >>> film. I don't think the practical ISO ranges available on DSLRs yet match [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >That is *very much* dependand by brand. There is no brand of film that is better than all brands of digital cameras.
The question was not if there is a given digital camera that is not as good as some type of film. Of course there is. The question is which is best at its best; and the answer is digital.
 Signature Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
David Dyer-Bennet - 07 Mar 2007 16:46 GMT >> I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the >> best DSLR for this purpose? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > film. I don't think the practical ISO ranges available on DSLRs yet match > what is available with film. In my experience, this is massively wrong. High ISO is where digital completely blows film away; there's no comparison. (I've been pushing TRI-X since 1969, shooting the Konica 3200 color neg when it was available, and oh *man* is digital better than any of that.)
Floyd L. Davidson - 07 Mar 2007 18:13 GMT >> I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the >> best DSLR for this purpose? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >film. I don't think the practical ISO ranges available on DSLRs yet match >what is available with film. Digital is significantly better at higher ISOs.
 Signature Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
ray - 07 Mar 2007 18:44 GMT >>> I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the >>> best DSLR for this purpose? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Digital is significantly better at higher ISOs. I see. I don't suppose you'd have a reference to a definitive analysis?
nospam - 07 Mar 2007 19:21 GMT > >>I should think the 'best' solution would be a film SLR with high speed > >>film. I don't think the practical ISO ranges available on DSLRs yet match [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I see. I don't suppose you'd have a reference to a definitive analysis? <http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/film.vs.digital.summary1.html>
basically, unless one is using fine grain film, pretty much any digital slr is going to be better, especially at higher iso.
ray - 08 Mar 2007 16:14 GMT >> >>I should think the 'best' solution would be a film SLR with high speed >> >>film. I don't think the practical ISO ranges available on DSLRs yet match [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > basically, unless one is using fine grain film, pretty much any digital > slr is going to be better, especially at higher iso. I certainly was not referring to cheapie film off the wall at Walgreen's. I plan to delve into some of the references above, but I'd still be surprised if a DSLR will out perform high quality, high speed film at low light levels.
David Dyer-Bennet - 08 Mar 2007 16:53 GMT >>>>> I should think the 'best' solution would be a film SLR with high speed >>>>> film. I don't think the practical ISO ranges available on DSLRs yet match [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > surprised if a DSLR will out perform high quality, high speed film at low > light levels. Several of us who've played with high-speed film for multiple decades, and digital for somewhat less, have told you that in our experience digital is *much* better than film at high ISO. This is also a truism repeated in nearly any introductory discussion of digital photography aimed at people used to film (the fact that you can use ISO at least a stop faster than you're used to for the same quality results).
Skepticism is healthy in a broad sort of way, but I'd suggest that this sort of widespread consensus contrary to your beliefs should be at least pushing you to doubt yourself, and to be actively seeking to run your own comparison tests.
If you in fact care, of course; you may have strong opinions but not actually *use* high ISO so you don't really care. In which case it might be better to just drop the discussion.
ray - 08 Mar 2007 17:45 GMT >>>>>> I should think the 'best' solution would be a film SLR with high speed >>>>>> film. I don't think the practical ISO ranges available on DSLRs yet match [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > pushing you to doubt yourself, and to be actively seeking to run your > own comparison tests. Since I don't have $1500 to blow on a digital SLR, I don't plan on doing my own comparison tests any time soon. I will be experimenting a little with my Kodak P850 to see what it's limitations are. I also have my trusty old Minolta SRT202 which I still put a roll through every once in a while - particularly doing wildlife shots at Yellowstone. I've not much doubt that under ideal conditions digital produces shots that are quite fine enough. The OP did not state (as I recall) whether the ultimate product would be files for editing on the computer or prints - I suspect that could easily swing the pendulum one way or the other. BTW - I've produced shots from a 1mp Kodak DC210+ printed to 8x10 that look pretty damned good - but that was, again, under the best of circumstances.
> If you in fact care, of course; you may have strong opinions but not > actually *use* high ISO so you don't really care. In which case it > might be better to just drop the discussion. I don't often use high ISO - I hope, as I said, to do some shooting in that area as time permits.
David Dyer-Bennet - 08 Mar 2007 18:05 GMT >>>>>>> I should think the 'best' solution would be a film SLR with high speed >>>>>>> film. I don't think the practical ISO ranges available on DSLRs yet match [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > shots from a 1mp Kodak DC210+ printed to 8x10 that look pretty damned good > - but that was, again, under the best of circumstances. "Good enough" (or fine enough) is an extremely important milestone in the development of a technology, definitely.
I've got at least 5 8x10 prints from a 2 megapixel Epson 850Z camera framed and on the walls in the house here; that's less than 150 pixels per linear inch, and they "shouldn't" look that good. My examples are also "best case" situations, and I couldn't count on 2mp for 8x10 reliably.
I don't expect you to buy the equipment you think won't work too well just to run tests, not; that wouldn't be reasonable.
I will tell you, as a matter of personal experience, confirmed by LOTS of paper and online writers, that DSLRs perform *much* better than the P&S cameras. Sensor size is a key factor in image quality.
There are a LOT of high-ISO pictures in my online snapshot album from my old Fuji S2 and my current Nikon D200, with the full EXIF data so you can tell what ISO they're shot at (and what camera, there are a couple other digital cameras contributing too). I'd be willing to send you the camera original of a modest number of them (your choice) for careful comparison and analysis, and use in a web page or article if you want to take the trouble to write up your results carefully. (The S2 was 2003-spring 2006, when I got the D200; the root of the snapshot album site is at <http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/>.).
This one from a wake for a good friend, last October, was only ISO 800, but I gotta say that for me, TRI-X at 400 doesn't look this good.
<http://dd-b.net/cgi-bin/picpage.pl/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/2006/10270-jmf-memori al?pic=ddb%2020061027%20010-170>
Or if you prefer color, <http://dd-b.net/cgi-bin/picpage.pl/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/2006/10270-jmf-memori al?pic=ddb%2020061027%20010-180;IPTC=no;EXIF=yes>.
ray - 08 Mar 2007 20:38 GMT >>>>>>>> I should think the 'best' solution would be a film SLR with high speed >>>>>>>> film. I don't think the practical ISO ranges available on DSLRs yet match [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > per linear inch, and they "shouldn't" look that good. My examples are > also "best case" situations, and I couldn't count on 2mp for 8x10 reliably. I would certainly concur with that.
> I don't expect you to buy the equipment you think won't work too well > just to run tests, not; that wouldn't be reasonable. > > I will tell you, as a matter of personal experience, confirmed by LOTS > of paper and online writers, that DSLRs perform *much* better than the > P&S cameras. Sensor size is a key factor in image quality. I've come to the same conclusion. My current requirements evolve much more around portability and long lenses than getting the ultimate performance. When I'm hiking (or snowshoeing) for several miles, I want to keep things pared down as much as possible. When that phase of my requirements change significantly, I will be looking with more emphasis on sensor size than number of pixels.
> There are a LOT of high-ISO pictures in my online snapshot album from my > old Fuji S2 and my current Nikon D200, with the full EXIF data so you [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Or if you prefer color, > <http://dd-b.net/cgi-bin/picpage.pl/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/2006/10270-jmf-memori al?pic=ddb%2020061027%20010-180;IPTC=no;EXIF=yes>. Thanks for the references - I'll have a look at your shots.
nospam - 08 Mar 2007 19:11 GMT > Since I don't have $1500 to blow on a digital SLR, I don't plan on doing > my own comparison tests any time soon. digital slrs start around $500ish.
ray - 08 Mar 2007 20:33 GMT >> Since I don't have $1500 to blow on a digital SLR, I don't plan on doing >> my own comparison tests any time soon. > > digital slrs start around $500ish. Right. With a fast short lens and a good 400mm lens.
Scott W - 08 Mar 2007 21:24 GMT > Since I don't have $1500 to blow on a digital SLR, I don't plan on doing > my own comparison tests any time soon. I will be experimenting a little > with my Kodak P850 to see what it's limitations are. The Kodak may be able to produce a good looking image but it will not come close to the ISO performance that a DSLR will have, its sensor is just too small for that. It would be a mistake to judge what a DLSR is capable of based on a point and shoot digital. The point and shoot cameras that I have are pretty much limited to ISO 100 or less.
To see just how much better a DSLR is first look at how the P850 does at ISO 400 <http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/kodakp850/page11.asp> Now look at how the a number of DLSRs do at ISO 800 and 1600 <http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos400d/page27.asp>
>I also have my trusty > old Minolta SRT202 which I still put a roll through every once in a while > - particularly doing wildlife shots at Yellowstone. I've not much doubt > that under ideal conditions digital produces shots that are quite fine > enough. The reality is that a DSLR is far better at getting the good shots when conditions are not idea, it is far better in low light and it is far better when white balance might be tricky.
>The OP did not state (as I recall) whether the ultimate product > would be files for editing on the computer or prints - I suspect that > could easily swing the pendulum one way or the other. Does not matter if you are going for prints or files a DSLR will do way better in low light.
> BTW - I've produced > shots from a 1mp Kodak DC210+ printed to 8x10 that look pretty damned good > - but that was, again, under the best of circumstances. I have never gotten a 8 x 10 print from a 1 MP camera that I really liked, they always looked really soft to me.
> I don't often use high ISO - I hope, as I said, to do some shooting in > that area as time permits.- Hide quoted text - If you use either film or your point and shoot you will likely get frustrated pretty fast, unless you do B/W and really like grain, some people do.
Scott
ray - 09 Mar 2007 01:10 GMT >> Since I don't have $1500 to blow on a digital SLR, I don't plan on doing >> my own comparison tests any time soon. I will be experimenting a little [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > of based on a point and shoot digital. The point and shoot cameras > that I have are pretty much limited to ISO 100 or less. Those are obvious points. Manual says the P850 will do iso 800 at 1.2 mp - 400 otherwise. Certainly I would not judge what a dslr costing several times more by it. It's what I have, and happens to fit my current requirements better than a larger camera. I've just not had time to do much experimenting yet.
> To see just how much better a DSLR is first look at how the P850 does > at ISO 400 > <http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/kodakp850/page11.asp> > Now look at how the a number of DLSRs do at ISO 800 and 1600 > <http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos400d/page27.asp> One thing I note is that they advise shooting raw with the P850 at 400 - I routinely shoot raw on the P850 - something you can't do with many P&S cameras.
>>I also have my trusty >> old Minolta SRT202 which I still put a roll through every once in a while [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > when conditions are not idea, it is far better in low light and it is > far better when white balance might be tricky. That's what everyone seems to be saying.
>>The OP did not state (as I recall) whether the ultimate product >> would be files for editing on the computer or prints - I suspect that [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > frustrated pretty fast, > unless you do B/W and really like grain, some people do. What I do is a lot of hiking and snowshoeing. I don't relish packing ten pounds of dslr and lenses along. For right now, the P850 seems to fill the bill. I don't do much B/W, I don't care for a lot of grain, I fairly frequently shoot wildlife at some distance, so will use a big zoom. Doubt I will get much frustrated - I believe I know what to expect - I've been using digital for a number of years - Kodak DC210+; Minolta S414; now the P850. I'll be sure and let you know if my frustration level gets out of control.
> Scott Lionel - 08 Mar 2007 23:26 GMT >>> >>I should think the 'best' solution would be a film SLR with high speed >>> >>film. I don't think the practical ISO ranges available on DSLRs yet match [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >surprised if a DSLR will out perform high quality, high speed film at low >light levels. *snort*
EOS 10D at ISO 1600, pushed about 1.5 stops (~ISO 4800) in processing: <http://lo.ve.ly/gallery/CarmillasApril16th2005/CRW_6630?set_fullOnly=on>
Same as above, but pushed about 1 stop: <http://lo.ve.ly/gallery/Golgotha2005-04-24/CRW_6735>
Both images are suffering from being pushed, but I don't know of any colour film that's even in the same ballpark at those speeds.
 Signature W "Some people are alive only because it is illegal to kill them." . | ,. w , \|/ \|/ Perna condita delenda est ---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------
Floyd L. Davidson - 07 Mar 2007 19:47 GMT >>>> I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the >>>> best DSLR for this purpose? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >I see. I don't suppose you'd have a reference to a definitive analysis? http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/film.vs.digital.summary1.html http://www.sphoto.com/techinfo/dslrvsfilm.htm http://photo.net/learn/optics/digitaloptics/ http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/d60/d60.shtml
The controversy seems to be whether that has only been recently true, or whether in fact the Nikon D1 (1999) out performed film at high ISOs.
 Signature Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
David Dyer-Bennet - 07 Mar 2007 20:25 GMT >>>>> I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the >>>>> best DSLR for this purpose? [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > true, or whether in fact the Nikon D1 (1999) out performed film > at high ISOs. Yeah, and I wouldn't know about that.
My Epson 850Z did *not* outperform film at ASA 400. My Fuji S2 *did* outperform film (in subjective terms; I'm not working from a quantified measure of picture quality that's valid across both film and digital!) at ISO 1600 to ISO 400 at least.
ray - 08 Mar 2007 16:23 GMT >>>>> I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the >>>>> best DSLR for this purpose? [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > true, or whether in fact the Nikon D1 (1999) out performed film > at high ISOs. Interesting references. Only problem is that they seem to be addressing what might be achieved under optimal conditions rather than addressing high ISO - low light action shots. I'm still not convinced.
Scott W - 08 Mar 2007 17:26 GMT > >>>>> I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the > >>>>> best DSLR for this purpose? [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > what might be achieved under optimal conditions rather than addressing > high ISO - low light action shots. I'm still not convinced One of the real delights in using a DSLR is being able to get indoor shots with available light that I could never get before. The scans I have seen of even ISO 400 film have looked pretty bad, I don't want to even think about how bad ISO 1600 color print film would be.
And the DSLRs just keep getting better, our 20D does very well at 1600 and is very usable at 3200, but I have seen test shots from the 1D mark 3 at 6400 that just blow me away.
Scott
Paul Rubin - 08 Mar 2007 17:37 GMT > And the DSLRs just keep getting better, our 20D does very well at 1600 > and is very usable at 3200, but I have seen test shots from the 1D > mark 3 at 6400 that just blow me away. I don't see how the 1Dmk3 does better given the various observations that the 20D's low light performance is limited basically by photon noise.
Scott W - 08 Mar 2007 17:44 GMT > > And the DSLRs just keep getting better, our 20D does very well at 1600 > > and is very usable at 3200, but I have seen test shots from the 1D > > mark 3 at 6400 that just blow me away. > > I don't see how the 1Dmk3 does better given the various observations > that the 20D's low light performance is limited basically by photon noise. The 1D III has a larger sensor then the 20D, and they have impoved the fill factor on the 1D III, less dead space between pixels.
Scott
Paul Rubin - 08 Mar 2007 18:06 GMT > > I don't see how the 1Dmk3 does better given the various observations > > that the 20D's low light performance is limited basically by photon noise. > The 1D III has a larger sensor then the 20D, and they have impoved the > fill factor on the 1D III, less dead space between pixels. Oh, both good points, though I thought the 1D3 uses a CMOS sensor which used to mean that there was some penalty because of digitization circuitry using up some of the active area that was somehow kept available for light collection with CCD sensors.
John Sheehy - 08 Mar 2007 22:35 GMT > I don't see how the 1Dmk3 does better given the various observations > that the 20D's low light performance is limited basically by photon > noise. It is a widely held belief that current cameras are limited mainly by photon noise, and Roger Clark's work is often quoted and referenced to support it, but I, for one, don't believe it. I believe that photon noise is a relatively pleasant-looking noise, and it is ruined by patterned read noises (both blackframe offset, and scalar illumination noises), which have much more visual power than the randomly-distibuted poisson shot noise.
Take any Canon RAW file underexposed by several stops, and push it, What do you see? Bands of color running horizontally, sometimes vertically. This is not shot noise that is ruining the shadows. Look how high read noise is in electrons, at the lowest ISOs - it is incredibly high, and trashes the excellent shadows captured in the sensor wells. Shot noise is the least of our digital imaging problems, IMO, especially with large sensors.
That said, Canon does claim less wasted space on the sensor (higher fill factor) over the mkII, and greater quantum efficiency, so, ISO 50 may be able to have full DR, unlike the mkII, *and* more photons may be collected for the same real-world absolute exposure.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< David J. Littleboy - 09 Mar 2007 00:14 GMT > Take any Canon RAW file underexposed by several stops, and push it, What > do you see? Bands of color running horizontally, sometimes vertically. > This is not shot noise that is ruining the shadows. Look how high read > noise is in electrons, at the lowest ISOs - it is incredibly high, and > trashes the excellent shadows captured in the sensor wells. In the 5D and 1Dmk2, the ISO 100 read noise looks to me to be dominated by quantization errors; the bit depth of the A/D converter is two bits shy of what's needed, maybe three. The dynamic range at ISO 100 to 400 is simply consistent with a 12-bit A/D converter. It's only at ISO 800 and above that other noise sources intrude.
That's why the D200 has the same ISO 100 dynamic range as the 5D.
> Shot noise is > the least of our digital imaging problems, IMO, especially with large > sensors. I'm not seeing pattern noise in pused images. Here's a 5D ISO 3200 file pushed 3 stops. Straight from Lightroom with noise reduction (and sharpening) turned off.
http://www.pbase.com/davidjl/image/75374090/original
This is seriously amazing stuff. At ISO 6400, the 5D is producing images competitive with the dreck 35mm users get with Tri-X in Rodinal (ISO 400).
Here's what you get with noise reduction and a touch of sharpening.
http://www.pbase.com/davidjl/image/75359389/original
> That said, Canon does claim less wasted space on the sensor (higher fill > factor) over the mkII, and greater quantum efficiency, so, ISO 50 may be > able to have full DR, unlike the mkII, *and* more photons may be collected > for the same real-world absolute exposure. ISO 50 will remain problematic, since the well depth is inadequate.
David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan
Paul Rubin - 09 Mar 2007 00:24 GMT > I'm not seeing pattern noise in pused images. Here's a 5D ISO 3200 file > pushed 3 stops. Straight from Lightroom with noise reduction (and > sharpening) turned off. > > http://www.pbase.com/davidjl/image/75374090/original You mean this is at 25,600? Pretty cool. I've seen TMZ pushed to that speed and maybe the grain isn't worse, but the TMZ has no tonality to speak of with that much pushing.
David J. Littleboy - 09 Mar 2007 01:01 GMT >> I'm not seeing pattern noise in pushed images. Here's a 5D ISO 3200 file >> pushed 3 stops. Straight from Lightroom with noise reduction (and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > You mean this is at 25,600? Exactly!
> Pretty cool. I've seen TMZ pushed to > that speed and maybe the grain isn't worse, but the TMZ has no > tonality to speak of with that much pushing. I wonder if you are comparing apples to apples: that's a 100% crop from at 12.7MP original. Even with that much noise, that's a lot of pixels. I'd think pushed film viewed at that resolution would be a major disaster.
David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 09 Mar 2007 03:16 GMT >>>I'm not seeing pattern noise in pushed images. Here's a 5D ISO 3200 file >>>pushed 3 stops. Straight from Lightroom with noise reduction (and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Exactly! David, Pretty cool demonstration.
Here is pushing some other limits with a Canon 1D Mark II:
Night and Low Light Photography with Digital Cameras http://www.clarkvision.com/photoinfo/night.and.low.light.photography
Figures 3a, 3b are 623 second exposures at ISO 1600.
Figure 4, set 2 equivalent to ISO 66,450! Figure 4, set 3 is an average of 6 frames at ISO 374,000!
Figure 5, set 5 is a single frame at ISO 3,883,000 !!!
Figure 8: night scene at equivalent ISO 16,000. Figure 9: night scene at equivalent ISO 64,000 (no dark subtraction). Figure 12: night scene at equivalent ISO320,000 (with dark subtraction).
Figure 13: night scene: 64 frames averaged at ISO 320,000.
Try that with film: you would get nothing.
For Ray: Electronic sensors have quantum efficiencies in the 30% range, and film a percent or so, so right there, one sees that electronic sensors are much more sensitive. Next combine the fact that there is a threshold with film requiring a fair number of photons before a grain will record the light, then add the fact of reciprocity failure and there are significant technical reasons why film does not do well in low light situations.
Add the above facts and it is no wonder why amateur astronomers had pretty much abandoned film for digital cameras. Amateur astronomers are getting much better astrophotos with DSLRs than they every did with film, even when using DSLRs on smaller telescopes in light polluted skies! The results are truly astounding. For example: a 27-minute exposure from light polluted Denver of the Pleiades: http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.astrophoto-1/web/m45-700MM-8534-856 1_C16B-add27-v3-800.html is better than I ever did with the best long exposure professional astronomical film (103aF) from dark skies and longer exposures with faster lenses.
Action: DSLRs produce better images at high ISO than any film I ever used. E.g., here is a lion eating a zebra before sunrise on the Serengeti a few weeks ago (1/250 sec at ISO 800): http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.africa/web/lion.c01.23.2007.JZ3F024 0b-700.html I couldn't have gotten much of an image with film pushed to ISO 800. Other examples are on my web site.
Roger
Paul Rubin - 09 Mar 2007 03:26 GMT > Here is pushing some other limits with a Canon 1D Mark II: > > Night and Low Light Photography with Digital Cameras > http://www.clarkvision.com/photoinfo/night.and.low.light.photography Wow, neat. The super-high-ISO examples have very visible horizontal banding--what happens if you take that out with a notch filter?
Is there a feasible way to remove the Bayer filter from a DSLR sensor?
What about shorter exposures at super ISO's?
ASAAR - 09 Mar 2007 06:45 GMT > Is there a feasible way to remove the Bayer filter from a DSLR sensor? Would the Kodak DCS Pro 14n do? In a post from last July, a Bystander giveth thusly:
> The 14 megapixel images it produces contain appreciably more > information, as expressed in detail, colour, brightness range and so on > than the old Kodachrome 25 slides in my library that I produced with the > same lenses. They will reproduce excellently on A4 glossy magazine stock > with as fine a screen lpi as you want. but in concluding, all too quickly taketh away:
> My main anxiety about the Pro 14n, incidentally, is whether or not the > batteries for it will still be available for the life of the camera. Use > it in the right circumstances and the results are great -- but issues > like slow startup, horrid noise levels in low light and surprising moire > effects -- you wouldn't get that with Kodachrome -- easily justify the > camera's discontinuance. Paul Furman - 09 Mar 2007 06:53 GMT >>Is there a feasible way to remove the Bayer filter from a DSLR sensor? As in B&W?
> Would the Kodak DCS Pro 14n do? In a post from last July, a > Bystander giveth thusly: Is this monocrome?
>>The 14 megapixel images it produces contain appreciably more >>information, as expressed in detail, colour, brightness range and so on [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >>effects -- you wouldn't get that with Kodachrome -- easily justify the >>camera's discontinuance. Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 09 Mar 2007 13:28 GMT >> Here is pushing some other limits with a Canon 1D Mark II: >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Wow, neat. The super-high-ISO examples have very visible horizontal > banding--what happens if you take that out with a notch filter? I have not tried that.
But all this talk about banding is a little mis-informed in my opinion. John Sheehy seems to be saying that because there is banding obvious at the low end is evidence for non-photon noise sources. While true, one must look at the level of the banding. For example, examine Figure 5 on the above web page. Set 5 in Figure 5 shows banding at a similar level as the signal in panels A and B (the left most two squares). But look at the table: the photons per pixel is only 1.2 in panel A and 0.8 in panel B! The read noise is 3.9 electrons, so the pattern noise is about 1/4 the read noise. The problem is that our eyes plus brain are very good at picking out patterns, whether that pattern is below random noise, or embedded in other patterns.
It would be interesting to try some filtering on the images.
> Is there a feasible way to remove the Bayer filter from a DSLR sensor? I do not know.
> What about shorter exposures at super ISO's? Figure 12 on the above web page is a 1/20 second exposure at equivalent ISO = 320,000. Do you want faster than that? It is simply a matter of photons per pixel per exposure. I would not think faster exposures with similar photons/pixel would appear any different. Longer at lower light levels would not appear any different either until noise from dark current starts to show. Dark current noise is the square root of the dark current, and the 1D Mark II under the temperatures used was around 0.03 electron/second. So a 10 second exposure would about a 0.5 electron noise to the 3.9 electron read noise. Thermal noise equals read noise after about 5 minutes.
Roger
acl - 09 Mar 2007 13:49 GMT On Mar 9, 2:28 pm, "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <usern...@qwest.net> wrote:
> >> Here is pushing some other limits with a Canon 1D Mark II: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > brain are very good at picking out patterns, whether that pattern > is below random noise, or embedded in other patterns. Actually I read his posts as saying, not that photon shot noise is less important than you say in absolute terms, but that he finds banding more disturbing. It seems to be a perceptual judgement; he doesn't appear to be claiming anything quantitatively different from what you say, just that it bothers him.
For what it's worth, I personally also find patterned noise much more disturbing than random noise (I really don't mind random noise all that much unless it gets to very high levels; of course it complicates my postprocessing but that is another story). It also seems to be the case that this patterned noise is more obvious to some people than to others: I have prints from pushed high isos which I find have very disturbing patterned noise (it jumps out at me immediately, and is perceptually almost as strong as the image), while my wife and a couple of friends don't notice it until I point it out, and then seem to be unaware of it unless they consciously decide to "see" it. I can't avoid seeing it at all. It seems to depend on the person; maybe this is part of this confusion (or maybe not).
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 10 Mar 2007 02:33 GMT > Actually I read his posts as saying, not that photon shot noise is > less important than you say in absolute terms, but that he finds [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > that much unless it gets to very high levels; of course it complicates > my postprocessing but that is another story). I too agree that pattern noise is more obvious that random noise. Probably by at least a factor of ten. It is our eye+brain's ability to pick out a pattern in the presence of a lot of random noise that makes us able to detect many things in everyday life. It probably developed as a necessary thing for survival. But then it becomes a problem when we try and make something artificial and we see the defects in it. It gives the makers of camera gear quite a challenge.
Roger
John Sheehy - 11 Mar 2007 15:47 GMT
> I too agree that pattern noise is more obvious that random noise. > Probably by at least a factor of ten. It is our eye+brain's [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > and make something artificial and we see the defects in it. > It gives the makers of camera gear quite a challenge. How does that co-exist with your conclusion that current cameras are limited by shot noise?
Saying that current cameras are limited by shot noise means that all future improvements lie purely in well depth, quantum efficiency, fill factor, and sensor size (you'd probably add "large pixels", but I'd disagree). The fact is, a 10:1 S:N on the 1DmkII at ISO 100 would be 1.5 stops further below saturation, and 1:1 would be 4.3 stop further below it, if there were no blackframe read noise
http://www.pbase.com/jps_photo/image/75392571
and that is only statistically, without consideration for the pattern noise effects, which widen the visual gap even further.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Bart van der Wolf - 12 Mar 2007 00:15 GMT >> I too agree that pattern noise is more obvious that random noise. >> Probably by at least a factor of ten. It is our eye+brain's [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > How does that co-exist with your conclusion that current cameras are > limited by shot noise? Shot noise is a physical limitation, not a man made one. The man made limitations can be improved upon.
 Signature Bart
acl - 12 Mar 2007 14:32 GMT > >> I too agree that pattern noise is more obvious that random noise. > >> Probably by at least a factor of ten. It is our eye+brain's [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Shot noise is a physical limitation, not a man made one. The man made > limitations can be improved upon. The speed of light is also a physical limitation. Would you therefore agree to the statement that the top speeds of current spaceships are limited by the speed of light, and therefore we must work on finding ways to circumvent that (rather than on finding some better propulsion system than semi-controlled explosions) :)? (I'm not claiming that banding really is the main limitation, by the way, I actually agree with Roger and presumably you).
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 12 Mar 2007 04:17 GMT > >> I too agree that pattern noise is more obvious that random noise. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > and that is only statistically, without consideration for the pattern noise > effects, which widen the visual gap even further. Nice plot. If you look at my past posts, you would also see that I've said for at least a couple of years 14-bit or higher A/D are needed too because current DSLRs are limited by 12-bit converters. Some attacked me in this NG with the idea that "if more than 12-bits were really needed, then why haven't camera manufacturers done it?" We'll we now see they have, and I'm sure 14 or more-bits will become a new standard in future DSLRs.
Regarding fixed pattern noise versus photon Poisson noise, your plot and some simple illustrations show what is dominant. First clue, look at the thousands of images on the net. How many show fixed pattern noise? It is very rare. You tend to see fixed pattern noise at the very lowest lows in an image. Second, if fixed pattern noise is really a factor, guess what, you can calibrate most of it out with dark frame subtraction. I think good examples of fixed pattern noise is illustrated at: http://www.clarkvision.com/photoinfo/night.and.low.light.photography Figure 1, for example shows two merged low light images and fixed pattern noise is not apparent, nor is it the dominant noise source in the image. Figure 2 shows the black sky above the Sydney opera house in an ISO 100 20 second exposure. Fixed pattern noise is a little over 1 bit out of 12 in the raw data. It simply is not a factor. But where the scene has signal, e.g. the lit roof, noise is proportional to the square root of the signal strength, with photon noise up to 18 out of 4095 in the 12-bit raw file. So, over most of the range, photon noise dominates. The low end, the bottom few values or bottom couple of bits, is a combination of photon noise, read noise, and fixed pattern noise. That gives about 10 bits out of 12 with photon noise as the dominant noise source. Again, if you work at the low end, calibrate out the majority of fixed pattern noise with dark frames.
Let's work an example. Let's assume fixed pattern noise is more objectionable by 10 times random noise (this is a reasonable estimate for me, and I find fixed pattern noise quite objectionable). But then with processing, e.g. dark frame subtraction, it can be reduced about 10x, then filtered and reduced more, all with minimal impact on resolution. Random photon noise in an image from can only be reduced by pixel averaging, thus reducing spatial resolution.
Let's use your full well depth, rounding off to 53,000 electrons. Fixed pattern noise in DSLRs like the 20D and 1D Mark II are between 1 and 2 bits in the A/D at low ISOs. At low signal levels, line-to-line pattern noise is on the order of 7 electrons in the 1D Mark II, with low frequency offset of a few tens of electrons (at ISO 100 fixed pattern noise appears at about the 1-bit level, which is ~13 electrons. The low frequency fixed pattern noise is entirely eliminated by a dark frame subtraction, and line-to-line (what you call 1D) is reduced by about 10X with dark frame subtraction.
So there are multiple conditions. Here is one example:
ISO 100, 1D Mark II, 53,000 electron full signal:
Signal Photon noise Read Noise Fixed-pattern What noise dominates (elect- stops (electrons) +A/D noise noise Photon, read, or pattern rons) (electrons) (electrons)
53,000 0 230 17 ~13 Photon 12,250 -4 110 17 ~13 Photon 3,312 -6 57 17 ~13 Photon 828 -8 29 17 ~13 Photon 207 -10 14 17 ~13 all 3 similar 51 -12 7 17 ~13 read + pattern
The above table demonstrate the the sensor has noise dominated by photon statistics over most of its dynamic range. Each generation of cameras that comes out pushed the floor where other noise sources in the electronics show. It is likely we'll see the 1D Mark III push those limits a stop or two lower. But photon noise remains and is the ultimate limit.
Here is another test series that illustrates the above conclusions: Digital Camera Raw Converter Shadow Detail and Image Editor Limitations: Factors in Getting Shadow Detail in Images http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/raw.converter.shadow.detail
Figure 6 shows areas from +2 to -7.6 stops. But if you look at the different raw conversions, you'll see widely different results and wildly different fixed pattern noise. Then look at Figure 16: the camera jpeg looks pretty clean with less pattern noise than some of the raw conversions. So when you say you don't believe photon noise versus fixed pattern noise, understand the effects of converters too.
Roger
John Sheehy - 11 Mar 2007 15:45 GMT
> But all this talk about banding is a little > mis-informed in my opinion. John Sheehy seems to be saying that [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > brain are very good at picking out patterns, whether that pattern > is below random noise, or embedded in other patterns. Yes, that is a problem, and that is exactly why you can't evaluate noise by standard deviation alone. It doesn't even take human perception to focus on the banding; binning and downsampling math focus on it too; an blackframe from a 20D with 10x the total noise as the horizontal banding component will show *only* banding noise, and no visible 2D noise at all, if binned down far enough. I think that this fact speaks volumes as to how useless standard deviations and S/N ratios based on them can be when comparing different *characteristics* of noises.
> Thermal noise equals read noise after about 5 minutes. Statistically, perhaps, but standard deviation does not tell the full story. You can clearly compare the standard deviations of two noise situations with the same characteristics, which only vary in terms of amplitude, but noise comes in a variety of characteristics, and the standard deviations are not necessarily related to the visual strength of noise when the characteristics are different. Dark current noise is much more visible than shot noise, with the same standard deviation, because most of its energy goes into a minority of pixels.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Bart van der Wolf - 12 Mar 2007 00:11 GMT >> The problem is that our eyes plus brain are very good at >> picking out patterns, whether that pattern is below random >> noise, or embedded in other patterns. What's worse, we see non-existing patterns (e.g. a triangle in the following link) because we want to: <http://www.xs4all.nl/~bvdwolf/temp/Triangle-or-not.gif>.
> Yes, that is a problem, and that is exactly why you can't evaluate > noise by standard deviation alone. That depends what one wants to evaluate. Standard deviation (together with mean) only tells something about pixel to pixel (or sensel to sensel) performance. It doesn't allow to make valid judgements about anything larger. Banding could be either calibrated out of the larger structure, or an analysis of systematic noise should be done (and care should be taken to not mistake Raw-converter effects for camera or sensor array effects).
 Signature Bart
acl - 12 Mar 2007 00:38 GMT > >> The problem is that our eyes plus brain are very good at > >> picking out patterns, whether that pattern is below random [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > sensel) performance. It doesn't allow to make valid judgements about > anything larger. As a matter of fact, they don't tell you anything (literally) about pixel to pixel behaviour. If I tell you that a signal has mean zero and given standard dev, what else can you tell me about it? Nothing. It could be anything from an otherwise random time series to a sine wave to a series of square waves to anything else. It's like knowing the first two coefficients in an infinite power series (well that's exactly what it is: the first two coefficients in an infinite power series).
the reason people use the first two moments (mean and std) is that the noises under consideration are often assumed to be gaussian, in which case these 2 qtys completely characterise the noise. this is usually a good approximation when the noise comes from many different sources.
> Banding could be either calibrated out of the larger > structure, or an analysis of systematic noise should be done (and care > should be taken to not mistake Raw-converter effects for camera or > sensor array effects). Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 12 Mar 2007 13:54 GMT >>>> The problem is that our eyes plus brain are very good at >>>> picking out patterns, whether that pattern is below random [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > exactly what it is: the first two coefficients in an infinite power > series). And that is why people who evaluate sensors do more than simply study the standard deviation of one image. To understand noise sources, the standard procedure is to make a series of exposures and analyze the results from the different test conditions. e.g.:
The Nikon D50 Digital Camera: Sensor Noise, Dynamic Range, and Full Well Analysis http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/evaluation-nikon-d50
http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/long-exposure-comparisons/index.html
and more at: http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/index.html#sensor_analysis
other: http://www.astrosurf.org/buil/20d/20dvs10d.htm
Roger
> the reason people use the first two moments (mean and std) is that the > noises under consideration are often assumed to be gaussian, in which [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> should be taken to not mistake Raw-converter effects for camera or >> sensor array effects). acl - 12 Mar 2007 14:27 GMT On Mar 12, 2:53 pm, "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <usern...@qwest.net> wrote:
> And that is why people who evaluate sensors do more than simply > study the standard deviation of one image. To understand noise sources, Never claimed otherwise! By the way, why don't people study the full power spectrum of the noise (ie of a blackframe)? That would give quite a lot of information (it should allow distinguishing between the white part of the noise and things like banding). And it should not be too hard (eg with IRIS, split the channels and FT them). And if you do that to an average of many frames, you'll be studying repeatable noise only. Is there some particular reason this isn't done by anybody?
> The Nikon D50 Digital Camera: > Sensor Noise, Dynamic Range, and Full Well Analysis > http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/evaluation-nikon-d50 That's quite interesting, why don't you include dark frames from more cameras? I'd think that this would be quite useful for people intending to do very low light work.
> http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/long-exposure-comparisons/inde... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Roger Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 12 Mar 2007 15:57 GMT > On Mar 12, 2:53 pm, "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" > <usern...@qwest.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > that to an average of many frames, you'll be studying repeatable noise > only. Is there some particular reason this isn't done by anybody? Time and effort--remember most are doing this for free out of curisoty. I started doing this to try and get the best camera for astrophotography. Then after seeing the trends, it became clear to me that because the photon noise limit had been reached, one can model and predict performance pretty closely. Now I find it interesting about the claims coming out in some press releases that seem to ignore physical reality ;-). I and other astrophotographers tend to ignore fixed pattern noise because we can calibrate most of it out of our images. If that is an issue for other people, then I suggest they learn how to take dark frames, average them, and subtract them from their images. It is really pretty easy, but for best results, it needs to be done on linear data. Another calibration that can improve images is flat field calibration, which not only corrects for pixel to pixel variations, but corrects for light fall-off from lenses.
But if someone wants to pay me to run more tests......
>> The Nikon D50 Digital Camera: >> Sensor Noise, Dynamic Range, and Full Well Analysis >> http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/evaluation-nikon-d50 > That's quite interesting, why don't you include dark frames from more > cameras? I'd think that this would be quite useful for people > intending to do very low light work. Again, time. I do have a fair amount of additional data for a number of cameras but I have not had time to write it up.
Roger
>> http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/long-exposure-comparisons >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >> Roger Doug McDonald - 12 Mar 2007 16:32 GMT >> On Mar 12, 2:53 pm, "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" >> <usern...@qwest.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > me that because the photon noise limit had been reached, one can > model and predict performance pretty closely. I have the Canon 30D. I took a bunch of very underexposed shots recently (no tripod at critical time) and found that background subtraction didn't help much. The annoying noise is some sort of horizontal banding or streaking (these are landscape shots). Looks sort of like they scan the image TV-wise and this is 1/f noise in the amplifiers.
Comments?
Doug McDonald
John Sheehy - 13 Mar 2007 14:44 GMT > I have the Canon 30D. I took a bunch of very underexposed shots > recently (no tripod at critical time) and found that background [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Comments? That's pretty typical of digital cameras in general; it is simply more visible in cameras with a certain ratio of banding noise to total noise. For the 30D it should be the same as the 20D (ignoring the 30D's fake, extra ISOs):
http://www.pbase.com/jps_photo/image/65737967/original
The yellow line represents standard deviation of a blackframe, divided by 10 to fit in with the horizontal and vertical banding noises (they'd be flat if the entire chart scaled for the the yellow line).
A few things become very clear here; the banding is generally only about 1/10 the strength of the total noise, and yet it is highly visible. With more read noise, the banding would be less obvious (although it may still contribute somewhat to visible noise, just without the obvious pattern). The higher ISOs are all normalized for ISO 100; IOW the values for ISO 200 are divided by two, ISO 400 values are divided by 4, etc, so these are proportional to electrons as units of noise. All noises decrease as you get to the higher ISOs, and the total noise looks like it is leveling off a bit from 800 to 1600, but still had room to improve a little at 3200, but 3200 is "fake" and is really ISO 1600 amplification, multiplied by two, so it is exactly the same as ISO 1600. The horizontal banding is still dropping dramatically from 800 to 1600, and seems to have the capability of dropping even further if the amplification went to 3200 or even 6400.
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