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low light
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ipy2006 - 07 Mar 2007 12:03 GMT I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the best DSLR for this purpose? Thanks, Yip
ASAAR - 07 Mar 2007 12:58 GMT On 7 Mar 2007 04:03:00 -0800, Yip quipped:
> I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the > best DSLR for this purpose? It's never just a matter of getting the best DSLR for the purpose. It's a DSLR body + lens combination that must be considered, as well as the low light level and specific types of actions you need to shoot. Some combinations will be so demanding that there may not be a suitable solution. Others may be so easy that almost any DSLR will do. If you can determine the minimum gear that will suffice, you can save a lot of money buying a body and lens(es). If you don't know but have enough money to burn, you could start with a Canon 5D and see if that and a typical "kit" lens gets you what you need. If not, you might need to spend about $1000 or even several thousand dollars getting a better lens if the kit lens proves inadequate. If your sports shooting demands long bursts of shots at very high frame rates, you might need to get a much more expensive body than the 5D, ie, one of the "pro" bodies from Canon or Nikon.
You gave no information at all as to the kind of action photos you'll be shooting or in what kind of low light levels. If you can tell us what they are, you might get some concrete examples of what kind of DSLR will meet your needs. Which brings up another point. You really want to know what kind of cameras will be suitable. You don't want to ask what the BEST DSLR is, because the "best" for one person won't be the best for another, and the absolute "best" for *you* might be $8,000 above your budget, whereas a $1,200 camera with kit lens might do everything you're looking for, and would be good enough. Care to share which camera(s) you're currently using, if any?
ipy2006 - 07 Mar 2007 13:42 GMT > On 7 Mar 2007 04:03:00 -0800, Yip quipped: > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > good enough. Care to share which camera(s) you're currently using, > if any? Here are some scenarios, Indoor shooting of people talking with hand gestures, people walking or pacing in the room, kids playing, women cooking in kitchen, or groups of people in meeting rooms etc. Sometimes I don't have the ability to use lights, I need to depend on flash and high brightness setting. Currently, I am using a Sony Digital Camera, Cyber-shot, DSC- H2. My budget is $1000 and at the most $1500.
I read some review that Canon Eos Digital Rebel xTi DSLR is good low lighting. Nikon D80 was good but the article said more as a available- light camera.
Please comment.
Thanks, yip
bworthey - 07 Mar 2007 13:50 GMT > Here are some scenarios, > Indoor shooting of people talking with hand gestures, people walking [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Please comment. From what it sounds like with the situations you described there will be some sort of lighting source, not like the people are in complete darkness or anything or not lights on in the house/room at all. I have teh Canon XTI and I have been suprised wtih the situations where I have not had to use the flash at all, with just appropriate adjustment with shutter, aperture, and white balance I have gotten some really good pictures.
B-Worthey
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 07 Mar 2007 14:17 GMT > Here are some scenarios, > Indoor shooting of people talking with hand gestures, people walking [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > setting. Currently, I am using a Sony Digital Camera, Cyber-shot, DSC- > H2. My budget is $1000 and at the most $1500. What, you don't take pictures of men cooking in the kitchen?
> I read some review that Canon Eos Digital Rebel xTi DSLR is good low > lighting. Nikon D80 was good but the article said more as a available- > light camera. > > Please comment. The rebel xti (400D) has smaller pixels than other rebel cameras, 5.7 microns) (and smaller than many other DSLRs). I don't have data on the xti, but can see on Figure 6 at http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/digital.sensor.performance.summary that plotting at 5.7 microns in the gray band, the performance would probably be below most other DSLRs on the plot. (If you can't see the gray band on the plot, your monitor is set too bright/too high contrast.)
Roger
ASAAR - 07 Mar 2007 15:32 GMT > Here are some scenarios, > Indoor shooting of people talking with hand gestures, people walking [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Please comment. I have no idea what the review meant. I'd take referring to a camera as "good low lighting" and "more as a available light camera" to be the same thing, both seem to be praising the camera's low (available) light ability. Both are good cameras, and well within your budget, leaving enough room left over to get a good flash. But the cameras that they replaced are probably better from a low light standpoint, because these (Canon's 350D and Nikon's D50), using the same size sensors, have fewer, larger pixels. This makes them able to collect more light and for the same high ISO setting, produce less "noise". Canon claims that despite having smaller pixels, the 400D is no noisier than the 350D, based on using better electronics, but I'd guess that the difference is slight, and whatever difference there is, the advantage would probably be to the 350D. I think that the 350D and D50 do at least as well in low light and perhaps better than their newer, more expensive siblings.
These older models are still available new, and you can get them for many hundreds of dollars less than the current models. The "kit" lenses for these cameras are usually something like 18mm-55mm and are very inexpensive. These lenses would probably be well suited for some of the slower activities you mentioned - women cooking, people in a meeting room, maybe people walking and pacing, etc. With the money saved by not going for the more expensive 400D or D80, there's a slim chance that you *might* be able to afford a longer, faster, and unfortunately heavier f/2.8 zoom, that would be ideal for capturing fast moving pets, children playing, some sports activities, etc. B&H has the D50 body in stock for $450 (new) and $400 (used). The 350D is $488 (new). Nikon's recent "budget" DSLR, the D40 is quite similar to the D50, and it's main limitation wouldn't be a limitation for you. It won't autofocus with old Nikon lenses. B&H has it for $570, and this includes Nikon's 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 kit lens. Add the same or a similar lens to the D50 or 350D and the price will be in the same ball park. This would leave your budget with just under $1000 remaining. That could be put to very good use if these lenses aren't suitable for collecting lots of light. You'd be all set if a fixed length lens of about 50mm would do, since an f/1.4 or f/1.8 lens is fairly inexpensive. If you need a longer lens, then you'd want to look for one that has an f/2.8 aperture, but the prices for these rise rapidly. Longer f/2.8 zoom lenses are probably well beyond your budget.
Paul Furman - 07 Mar 2007 15:58 GMT > These older models are still available new, and you can get them > for many hundreds of dollars less than the current models. The [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > aperture, but the prices for these rise rapidly. Longer f/2.8 zoom > lenses are probably well beyond your budget. I think he will need a wider lens for groups of people in a kitchen unless it's a huge kitchen. I initially only saw the $1000 budget but with $1500 he could get a Nikon D50, Sigma 30mm f/1.4 and 18-70mm lenses. I don't know the Canon options as well.
ASAAR - 08 Mar 2007 01:48 GMT > I think he will need a wider lens for groups of people in a kitchen > unless it's a huge kitchen. I initially only saw the $1000 budget but > with $1500 he could get a Nikon D50, Sigma 30mm f/1.4 and 18-70mm > lenses. I don't know the Canon options as well. It depends on the kitchen. Mine might need an ultra-wide. :) For many, 18mm is probably wide enough. A turkey in a pan isn't going to be as quick as a toddler in the living room or a frisky pet, and if the rest of the shot is sharp, the slight blur of a stirring spoon might even be desirable. If the kitchen is small and dim, then the Sigma 30mm f/1.4 might be a good addition, but I'd hold off on it for at least long enough to find out if the 18-70mm lens's aperture is too small. A bigger problem in cramped quarters will be dealing with harsh and very uneven lighting if a flash has to be used, but dealing with that can come later, as I don't think that the solutions would be effected very much by the choices of DSLR body and lenses, as long as there's enough left in the budget.
Paul Furman - 07 Mar 2007 15:35 GMT > Here are some scenarios, > Indoor shooting of people talking with hand gestures, people walking [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Please comment. For that budget, a Nikon D50 or Canon XTI with a Sigma 30mm f/1.4 lens. The fixed focal length gets you faster, wider aperture and that's the appropriate normal focal length for home sized rooms indoor groups of people.
John Sheehy - 07 Mar 2007 22:30 GMT "ipy2006" <ipyasaswi@gmail.com> wrote in news:1173274977.039356.148330 @h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
> I read some review that Canon Eos Digital Rebel xTi DSLR is good low > lighting. Nikon D80 was good but the article said more as a available- > light camera. I agree that the XTi is "good" in low light; it's better than older Canons like the 10D and 300D, and better than most current CCD DSLRs from other manufacturers, but it is still a good notch below the 30D. The read noise of the 30D is 0.6 stops lower in ADUs (RAW levels), and the XTi is 0.5 stop less sensitive (RAW signal for a fixed illumination and exposure). The XTi and 30D both meter for approximately 120% of the stated ISO, but the XTi winds up with an extra 0.5 stops of headroom. So. all told, the practical noise floor is 1.1 stops higher with the XTi, for the same real (not metered) exposure.
The XTi seems to be a better imager at ISOs 100 and 200, though, with more pixels and less read noise.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< John Sheehy - 08 Mar 2007 22:10 GMT > So. all told, the practical noise floor > is 1.1 stops higher with the XTi, for the same real (not metered) > exposure. I made a distinction there, but in this specific case, both meter about the same, anyway.
> The XTi seems to be a better imager at ISOs 100 and 200, though, with > more pixels and less read noise. This is in the sense that the XTi has a lower noise floor than any Canon DSLRs except the 1-series at ISOs 100 and 200, relative to maximum signal.
If you let the camera meter the scene without an extra 1/2 stop of EC, there will be more noise in the shadows in the XTi. Fortunately, the -2 contrast setting in the XTi recognizes this extra headroom, and rolls it well into the JPEGs, so a white or green highlight clips in the review and histogram just barely below where the RAW data does, so you can use the histogram to feel out white and green RAW highlights.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< John Smith - 17 Mar 2007 21:00 GMT >> On 7 Mar 2007 04:03:00 -0800, Yip quipped: >> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > setting. Currently, I am using a Sony Digital Camera, Cyber-shot, DSC- > H2. My budget is $1000 and at the most $1500. When you say "hand gestures" you mean they get angry if you use a flash or other additional light source?
Sounds like you're going to be working in a confined area. If you don't need the long reach of a zoom, you might want to consider something like the Nikon D40, throw away the kit lens, and buy a 50mm 1.8 (about 100$give or take) Nice fast lens, and the camera is getting good reviews for higher ISO shootin'.
I'm going to order one myself tomorrow night.
DP
Dr. Joel M. Hoffman - 07 Mar 2007 23:27 GMT >> I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the >> best DSLR for this purpose? > >Canon 5D and see if that and a typical "kit" lens gets you what you >need. If not, you might need to spend about $1000 or even several You don't need to spend $1,000 for a lens that does better in low light than the kit lens. A good 50mm prime will do very well in low light. And the Canon 30D does amazingly well at ISO1600.
On the other hand, if you're taking pictures in low light of things that aren't moving, and if you can't use a tripod, then the slower IS lenses (17-85, e.g.) may be better than the 50mm prime.
For that matter, if you you really have VERY little light, then nothing will help.
But basically, the Canons do a bit better under low light than the Nikons, and you want as fast a lens as you can afford.
-Joel
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tomm42 - 07 Mar 2007 13:33 GMT > I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the > best DSLR for this purpose? > Thanks, > Yip I'd look at a Canon 30D, about the best for a reason able price, the Canon 5D is better but 3X (approx) the price. Canons seem to have a heavier in camera noise reduction than the cameras with a Sony sensor. Remember you won't get by with a kit lens here. If you are in school gyms, swimming pools etc you will neeed at least an f2.8 lens. A 70-200 f2.8 pushes $2K. If you buy single focal length lenses 85 - 135mm should cover what you need, just look at lenses that are f1.4- f2.8, price escalate dramaticly after 135mm. Some claim they get by with a fast 50mm, doesn't seem long enough for me. An 85 f1.8 or a 135 f2 should be good lenses to look at, depending on the distance of the action. Just calculate what f-stop and ISO can get you to a shutter speed of at least 1/250 of a second. Vibration reduction will be of minimal usefulness you should be at shutter speeds that don't need it and the blur will come from the action.
Tom
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 07 Mar 2007 14:04 GMT >> I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the >> best DSLR for this purpose? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Canon 5D is better but 3X (approx) the price. Canons seem to have a > heavier in camera noise reduction than the cameras with a Sony sensor. Not quite. Canon sensors have inherently low noise at low signal levels. Noise reduction implies some method of reducing noise, and that can only be done by averaging pixels to reduce spatial resolution. One can do that in software in post processing. It helps to have a good low noise/high signal system to begin with.
See: Digital Cameras: Does Pixel Size Matter? Factors in Choosing a Digital Camera http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/does.pixel.size.matter
Digital Camera Sensor Performance Summary http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/digital.sensor.performance.summary
For the OP: choose a camera with the largest pixels and the lowest read noise. The two relevant plots on the digital.sensor.performance.summary web page are Figure 3 (lower on the plot is better), Figure 6 (higher on the plot is better) and Figure 7 (higher = better).
> Remember you won't get by with a kit lens here. If you are in school > gyms, swimming pools etc you will neeed at least an f2.8 lens. A [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > shutter speeds that don't need it and the blur will come from the > action. For indoor action shots, a 50mm f/1.8 lens is very low cost (about %70) and very high performance. Remember, on a 1.6x crop camera, 50 mm is like 80 mm on a full frame camera regarding full field of view.
Roger
DeanB - 07 Mar 2007 14:23 GMT On Mar 7, 9:04 am, "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <usern...@qwest.net> wrote:
> >> I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the > >> best DSLR for this purpose? [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > Roger This (1.2) would be a lens to save up for in your situation:
http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelDetailAct&fcategoryid=152& modelid=12926
But the 1.4's are about $900 to $1000.
ipy2006 - 07 Mar 2007 14:35 GMT > On Mar 7, 9:04 am, "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" > [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Thank you all for your feedback. Yip
Skip - 07 Mar 2007 14:20 GMT >I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the > best DSLR for this purpose? > Thanks, > Yip Probably the best DSLR for your purpose would be the upcoming Canon 1D mkIII, it shoots 10 fps, has a "silent mode," an ISO range up to3200 expandable to 6400. That being said, a appropriate lens is critical to the equation. Depending on what the subject is, a 70-200 f2.8 zoom or a fixed focal length lens like the 100 f2, 85 f1.8 or 85 f1.2 could be excellent choices. Notice, when you say "best," without saying what you're budget is, the best is expensive, the body will probably be in the $4000+ range, the 70-200 f2.8 is about $1600, and the 85 f1.2 is about $1200.
 Signature Skip Middleton www.shadowcatcherimagery.com www.pbase.com/skipm
imaphotophan@yahoo.com - 07 Mar 2007 14:54 GMT > I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the > best DSLR for this purpose? > Thanks, > Yip I've had about a year with DSLRs after a few years with higher end digitals. I made the transition due to similar circumstances - the family and friends refused to stay still in bright light while i was awake.
Here's the best piece of advice I've been told by a coupl eof people and experience is confirming this: "It's all about the lenses"
Unlike a lot of consumer electronic devices where the base unit is important rather than the peripherals, DSLRs aren't quite the same way. Lens end up being more important because: 1) The optics determine quality to a large extent. I didn't say all or 99% or anything else is trivial. But the glass is a huge factor. 2) The lenses will outlive the body. Especially digital bodies where technology changes and improves so rapidly. Even in the film age, the investment ended up in lenses. 3) Lenses largely determine how much light is needed for a good shot. 4) You can always start with a lower level body and a great set of lenses and get great pics in tough lighting situations immediately. Great body but mediocre kit lenses will leave you in the same situation as with many point-and-shoot cameras today - just can't do it. Kit lenses are rarely good enough to use in low light situations.
My recommendations, to be taken as a rough and still a bit not fully informed opinion... I have a Canon 400D so I'm only going to talk about things I have *some* idea about. Again, you are going to have to do your own research despite what any of us says.
Lenses: Tamron SP AF17-50mm F/2.8 XR Di-II LD Aspherical - for close to normal indoor shots, and outdoor shots within talking distance. And the everyday, always on default lens. Canon EF 85mm f/1.2L II USM - the classic, very good 3-4x-ish telephoto lens for low light situations, from portrait to kid sports (after the first two and the body, we have:) Canon EF 70 - 300mm f4.5-5.6 DO IS USM - for extended telephoto shots
Body: Start with a good used 300D or 350D. The 350D would be a good choice as the 400D is more or less 350D with a couple of extra near- superfluous megapixels and a cleaning system (very nice but we're trying to conserve dollars here for lenses and accessories). Certainly a XTi (400D) is a good choice but I'm concerned about the budgetary restraints you gave. Again, invest in lenses - you can swap bodies out later. I've done one swap out from a used 300D to a new XTi.
Don;t forget the key essentials.... flash (search for 430EX, vivitar flash, sunpak flash), and a good tripod. there's another $200-400! But with the flash, you can settle for using cheaper 3rd party items at th beginning. But preferable to buy new. And a travel case. $25-50.
Nikon is another good choice to Canon since they have a nice huge selection of lenses to choose from - including 3rd parties. Perhaps the Nikkoners can provide some detailed recommendations here.
Rutger - 07 Mar 2007 14:54 GMT >I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the > best DSLR for this purpose? > Thanks, > Yip The one with the biggest sensor. And wit biggest i mean in millimetres, NOT in megapixels. The bigger the sensor, the lower the noise, which will certainly occur when shooting in low light.
Rutger
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ray - 07 Mar 2007 15:53 GMT > I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the > best DSLR for this purpose? > Thanks, > Yip I should think the 'best' solution would be a film SLR with high speed film. I don't think the practical ISO ranges available on DSLRs yet match what is available with film.
nospam - 07 Mar 2007 16:12 GMT > I should think the 'best' solution would be a film SLR with high speed > film. I don't think the practical ISO ranges available on DSLRs yet match > what is available with film. digital is *much* better than film at high iso.
Rutger - 07 Mar 2007 17:03 GMT >> I should think the 'best' solution would be a film SLR with high speed >> film. I don't think the practical ISO ranges available on DSLRs yet match >> what is available with film. > > digital is *much* better than film at high iso. That is *very much* dependand by brand.
Rutger
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acl - 07 Mar 2007 22:44 GMT > > In article <pan.2007.03.07.15.53.05.559...@zianet.com>, ray > > <r...@zianet.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > That is *very much* dependand by brand. Well, can you name a film that is better than the Nikon D200 at, say, ISO 1600? (noise is not its strongest point).
Or do you mean something like "sensor/pixel size" by brand?
Floyd L. Davidson - 07 Mar 2007 23:37 GMT >>> I should think the 'best' solution would be a film SLR with high speed >>> film. I don't think the practical ISO ranges available on DSLRs yet match [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >That is *very much* dependand by brand. There is no brand of film that is better than all brands of digital cameras.
The question was not if there is a given digital camera that is not as good as some type of film. Of course there is. The question is which is best at its best; and the answer is digital.
 Signature Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
David Dyer-Bennet - 07 Mar 2007 16:46 GMT >> I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the >> best DSLR for this purpose? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > film. I don't think the practical ISO ranges available on DSLRs yet match > what is available with film. In my experience, this is massively wrong. High ISO is where digital completely blows film away; there's no comparison. (I've been pushing TRI-X since 1969, shooting the Konica 3200 color neg when it was available, and oh *man* is digital better than any of that.)
Floyd L. Davidson - 07 Mar 2007 18:13 GMT >> I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the >> best DSLR for this purpose? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >film. I don't think the practical ISO ranges available on DSLRs yet match >what is available with film. Digital is significantly better at higher ISOs.
 Signature Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
ray - 07 Mar 2007 18:44 GMT >>> I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the >>> best DSLR for this purpose? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Digital is significantly better at higher ISOs. I see. I don't suppose you'd have a reference to a definitive analysis?
nospam - 07 Mar 2007 19:21 GMT > >>I should think the 'best' solution would be a film SLR with high speed > >>film. I don't think the practical ISO ranges available on DSLRs yet match [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I see. I don't suppose you'd have a reference to a definitive analysis? <http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/film.vs.digital.summary1.html>
basically, unless one is using fine grain film, pretty much any digital slr is going to be better, especially at higher iso.
ray - 08 Mar 2007 16:14 GMT >> >>I should think the 'best' solution would be a film SLR with high speed >> >>film. I don't think the practical ISO ranges available on DSLRs yet match [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > basically, unless one is using fine grain film, pretty much any digital > slr is going to be better, especially at higher iso. I certainly was not referring to cheapie film off the wall at Walgreen's. I plan to delve into some of the references above, but I'd still be surprised if a DSLR will out perform high quality, high speed film at low light levels.
David Dyer-Bennet - 08 Mar 2007 16:53 GMT >>>>> I should think the 'best' solution would be a film SLR with high speed >>>>> film. I don't think the practical ISO ranges available on DSLRs yet match [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > surprised if a DSLR will out perform high quality, high speed film at low > light levels. Several of us who've played with high-speed film for multiple decades, and digital for somewhat less, have told you that in our experience digital is *much* better than film at high ISO. This is also a truism repeated in nearly any introductory discussion of digital photography aimed at people used to film (the fact that you can use ISO at least a stop faster than you're used to for the same quality results).
Skepticism is healthy in a broad sort of way, but I'd suggest that this sort of widespread consensus contrary to your beliefs should be at least pushing you to doubt yourself, and to be actively seeking to run your own comparison tests.
If you in fact care, of course; you may have strong opinions but not actually *use* high ISO so you don't really care. In which case it might be better to just drop the discussion.
ray - 08 Mar 2007 17:45 GMT >>>>>> I should think the 'best' solution would be a film SLR with high speed >>>>>> film. I don't think the practical ISO ranges available on DSLRs yet match [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > pushing you to doubt yourself, and to be actively seeking to run your > own comparison tests. Since I don't have $1500 to blow on a digital SLR, I don't plan on doing my own comparison tests any time soon. I will be experimenting a little with my Kodak P850 to see what it's limitations are. I also have my trusty old Minolta SRT202 which I still put a roll through every once in a while - particularly doing wildlife shots at Yellowstone. I've not much doubt that under ideal conditions digital produces shots that are quite fine enough. The OP did not state (as I recall) whether the ultimate product would be files for editing on the computer or prints - I suspect that could easily swing the pendulum one way or the other. BTW - I've produced shots from a 1mp Kodak DC210+ printed to 8x10 that look pretty damned good - but that was, again, under the best of circumstances.
> If you in fact care, of course; you may have strong opinions but not > actually *use* high ISO so you don't really care. In which case it > might be better to just drop the discussion. I don't often use high ISO - I hope, as I said, to do some shooting in that area as time permits.
David Dyer-Bennet - 08 Mar 2007 18:05 GMT >>>>>>> I should think the 'best' solution would be a film SLR with high speed >>>>>>> film. I don't think the practical ISO ranges available on DSLRs yet match [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > shots from a 1mp Kodak DC210+ printed to 8x10 that look pretty damned good > - but that was, again, under the best of circumstances. "Good enough" (or fine enough) is an extremely important milestone in the development of a technology, definitely.
I've got at least 5 8x10 prints from a 2 megapixel Epson 850Z camera framed and on the walls in the house here; that's less than 150 pixels per linear inch, and they "shouldn't" look that good. My examples are also "best case" situations, and I couldn't count on 2mp for 8x10 reliably.
I don't expect you to buy the equipment you think won't work too well just to run tests, not; that wouldn't be reasonable.
I will tell you, as a matter of personal experience, confirmed by LOTS of paper and online writers, that DSLRs perform *much* better than the P&S cameras. Sensor size is a key factor in image quality.
There are a LOT of high-ISO pictures in my online snapshot album from my old Fuji S2 and my current Nikon D200, with the full EXIF data so you can tell what ISO they're shot at (and what camera, there are a couple other digital cameras contributing too). I'd be willing to send you the camera original of a modest number of them (your choice) for careful comparison and analysis, and use in a web page or article if you want to take the trouble to write up your results carefully. (The S2 was 2003-spring 2006, when I got the D200; the root of the snapshot album site is at <http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/>.).
This one from a wake for a good friend, last October, was only ISO 800, but I gotta say that for me, TRI-X at 400 doesn't look this good.
<http://dd-b.net/cgi-bin/picpage.pl/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/2006/10270-jmf-memori al?pic=ddb%2020061027%20010-170>
Or if you prefer color, <http://dd-b.net/cgi-bin/picpage.pl/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/2006/10270-jmf-memori al?pic=ddb%2020061027%20010-180;IPTC=no;EXIF=yes>.
ray - 08 Mar 2007 20:38 GMT >>>>>>>> I should think the 'best' solution would be a film SLR with high speed >>>>>>>> film. I don't think the practical ISO ranges available on DSLRs yet match [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > per linear inch, and they "shouldn't" look that good. My examples are > also "best case" situations, and I couldn't count on 2mp for 8x10 reliably. I would certainly concur with that.
> I don't expect you to buy the equipment you think won't work too well > just to run tests, not; that wouldn't be reasonable. > > I will tell you, as a matter of personal experience, confirmed by LOTS > of paper and online writers, that DSLRs perform *much* better than the > P&S cameras. Sensor size is a key factor in image quality. I've come to the same conclusion. My current requirements evolve much more around portability and long lenses than getting the ultimate performance. When I'm hiking (or snowshoeing) for several miles, I want to keep things pared down as much as possible. When that phase of my requirements change significantly, I will be looking with more emphasis on sensor size than number of pixels.
> There are a LOT of high-ISO pictures in my online snapshot album from my > old Fuji S2 and my current Nikon D200, with the full EXIF data so you [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Or if you prefer color, > <http://dd-b.net/cgi-bin/picpage.pl/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/2006/10270-jmf-memori al?pic=ddb%2020061027%20010-180;IPTC=no;EXIF=yes>. Thanks for the references - I'll have a look at your shots.
nospam - 08 Mar 2007 19:11 GMT > Since I don't have $1500 to blow on a digital SLR, I don't plan on doing > my own comparison tests any time soon. digital slrs start around $500ish.
ray - 08 Mar 2007 20:33 GMT >> Since I don't have $1500 to blow on a digital SLR, I don't plan on doing >> my own comparison tests any time soon. > > digital slrs start around $500ish. Right. With a fast short lens and a good 400mm lens.
Scott W - 08 Mar 2007 21:24 GMT > Since I don't have $1500 to blow on a digital SLR, I don't plan on doing > my own comparison tests any time soon. I will be experimenting a little > with my Kodak P850 to see what it's limitations are. The Kodak may be able to produce a good looking image but it will not come close to the ISO performance that a DSLR will have, its sensor is just too small for that. It would be a mistake to judge what a DLSR is capable of based on a point and shoot digital. The point and shoot cameras that I have are pretty much limited to ISO 100 or less.
To see just how much better a DSLR is first look at how the P850 does at ISO 400 <http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/kodakp850/page11.asp> Now look at how the a number of DLSRs do at ISO 800 and 1600 <http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos400d/page27.asp>
>I also have my trusty > old Minolta SRT202 which I still put a roll through every once in a while > - particularly doing wildlife shots at Yellowstone. I've not much doubt > that under ideal conditions digital produces shots that are quite fine > enough. The reality is that a DSLR is far better at getting the good shots when conditions are not idea, it is far better in low light and it is far better when white balance might be tricky.
>The OP did not state (as I recall) whether the ultimate product > would be files for editing on the computer or prints - I suspect that > could easily swing the pendulum one way or the other. Does not matter if you are going for prints or files a DSLR will do way better in low light.
> BTW - I've produced > shots from a 1mp Kodak DC210+ printed to 8x10 that look pretty damned good > - but that was, again, under the best of circumstances. I have never gotten a 8 x 10 print from a 1 MP camera that I really liked, they always looked really soft to me.
> I don't often use high ISO - I hope, as I said, to do some shooting in > that area as time permits.- Hide quoted text - If you use either film or your point and shoot you will likely get frustrated pretty fast, unless you do B/W and really like grain, some people do.
Scott
ray - 09 Mar 2007 01:10 GMT >> Since I don't have $1500 to blow on a digital SLR, I don't plan on doing >> my own comparison tests any time soon. I will be experimenting a little [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > of based on a point and shoot digital. The point and shoot cameras > that I have are pretty much limited to ISO 100 or less. Those are obvious points. Manual says the P850 will do iso 800 at 1.2 mp - 400 otherwise. Certainly I would not judge what a dslr costing several times more by it. It's what I have, and happens to fit my current requirements better than a larger camera. I've just not had time to do much experimenting yet.
> To see just how much better a DSLR is first look at how the P850 does > at ISO 400 > <http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/kodakp850/page11.asp> > Now look at how the a number of DLSRs do at ISO 800 and 1600 > <http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos400d/page27.asp> One thing I note is that they advise shooting raw with the P850 at 400 - I routinely shoot raw on the P850 - something you can't do with many P&S cameras.
>>I also have my trusty >> old Minolta SRT202 which I still put a roll through every once in a while [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > when conditions are not idea, it is far better in low light and it is > far better when white balance might be tricky. That's what everyone seems to be saying.
>>The OP did not state (as I recall) whether the ultimate product >> would be files for editing on the computer or prints - I suspect that [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > frustrated pretty fast, > unless you do B/W and really like grain, some people do. What I do is a lot of hiking and snowshoeing. I don't relish packing ten pounds of dslr and lenses along. For right now, the P850 seems to fill the bill. I don't do much B/W, I don't care for a lot of grain, I fairly frequently shoot wildlife at some distance, so will use a big zoom. Doubt I will get much frustrated - I believe I know what to expect - I've been using digital for a number of years - Kodak DC210+; Minolta S414; now the P850. I'll be sure and let you know if my frustration level gets out of control.
> Scott Lionel - 08 Mar 2007 23:26 GMT >>> >>I should think the 'best' solution would be a film SLR with high speed >>> >>film. I don't think the practical ISO ranges available on DSLRs yet match [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >surprised if a DSLR will out perform high quality, high speed film at low >light levels. *snort*
EOS 10D at ISO 1600, pushed about 1.5 stops (~ISO 4800) in processing: <http://lo.ve.ly/gallery/CarmillasApril16th2005/CRW_6630?set_fullOnly=on>
Same as above, but pushed about 1 stop: <http://lo.ve.ly/gallery/Golgotha2005-04-24/CRW_6735>
Both images are suffering from being pushed, but I don't know of any colour film that's even in the same ballpark at those speeds.
 Signature W "Some people are alive only because it is illegal to kill them." . | ,. w , \|/ \|/ Perna condita delenda est ---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------
Floyd L. Davidson - 07 Mar 2007 19:47 GMT >>>> I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the >>>> best DSLR for this purpose? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >I see. I don't suppose you'd have a reference to a definitive analysis? http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/film.vs.digital.summary1.html http://www.sphoto.com/techinfo/dslrvsfilm.htm http://photo.net/learn/optics/digitaloptics/ http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/d60/d60.shtml
The controversy seems to be whether that has only been recently true, or whether in fact the Nikon D1 (1999) out performed film at high ISOs.
 Signature Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
David Dyer-Bennet - 07 Mar 2007 20:25 GMT >>>>> I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the >>>>> best DSLR for this purpose? [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > true, or whether in fact the Nikon D1 (1999) out performed film > at high ISOs. Yeah, and I wouldn't know about that.
My Epson 850Z did *not* outperform film at ASA 400. My Fuji S2 *did* outperform film (in subjective terms; I'm not working from a quantified measure of picture quality that's valid across both film and digital!) at ISO 1600 to ISO 400 at least.
ray - 08 Mar 2007 16:23 GMT >>>>> I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the >>>>> best DSLR for this purpose? [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > true, or whether in fact the Nikon D1 (1999) out performed film > at high ISOs. Interesting references. Only problem is that they seem to be addressing what might be achieved under optimal conditions rather than addressing high ISO - low light action shots. I'm still not convinced.
Scott W - 08 Mar 2007 17:26 GMT > >>>>> I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the > >>>>> best DSLR for this purpose? [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > what might be achieved under optimal conditions rather than addressing > high ISO - low light action shots. I'm still not convinced One of the real delights in using a DSLR is being able to get indoor shots with available light that I could never get before. The scans I have seen of even ISO 400 film have looked pretty bad, I don't want to even think about how bad ISO 1600 color print film would be.
And the DSLRs just keep getting better, our 20D does very well at 1600 and is very usable at 3200, but I have seen test shots from the 1D mark 3 at 6400 that just blow me away.
Scott
Paul Rubin - 08 Mar 2007 17:37 GMT > And the DSLRs just keep getting better, our 20D does very well at 1600 > and is very usable at 3200, but I have seen test shots from the 1D > mark 3 at 6400 that just blow me away. I don't see how the 1Dmk3 does better given the various observations that the 20D's low light performance is limited basically by photon noise.
Scott W - 08 Mar 2007 17:44 GMT > > And the DSLRs just keep getting better, our 20D does very well at 1600 > > and is very usable at 3200, but I have seen test shots from the 1D > > mark 3 at 6400 that just blow me away. > > I don't see how the 1Dmk3 does better given the various observations > that the 20D's low light performance is limited basically by photon noise. The 1D III has a larger sensor then the 20D, and they have impoved the fill factor on the 1D III, less dead space between pixels.
Scott
Paul Rubin - 08 Mar 2007 18:06 GMT > > I don't see how the 1Dmk3 does better given the various observations > > that the 20D's low light performance is limited basically by photon noise. > The 1D III has a larger sensor then the 20D, and they have impoved the > fill factor on the 1D III, less dead space between pixels. Oh, both good points, though I thought the 1D3 uses a CMOS sensor which used to mean that there was some penalty because of digitization circuitry using up some of the active area that was somehow kept available for light collection with CCD sensors.
John Sheehy - 08 Mar 2007 22:35 GMT > I don't see how the 1Dmk3 does better given the various observations > that the 20D's low light performance is limited basically by photon > noise. It is a widely held belief that current cameras are limited mainly by photon noise, and Roger Clark's work is often quoted and referenced to support it, but I, for one, don't believe it. I believe that photon noise is a relatively pleasant-looking noise, and it is ruined by patterned read noises (both blackframe offset, and scalar illumination noises), which have much more visual power than the randomly-distibuted poisson shot noise.
Take any Canon RAW file underexposed by several stops, and push it, What do you see? Bands of color running horizontally, sometimes vertically. This is not shot noise that is ruining the shadows. Look how high read noise is in electrons, at the lowest ISOs - it is incredibly high, and trashes the excellent shadows captured in the sensor wells. Shot noise is the least of our digital imaging problems, IMO, especially with large sensors.
That said, Canon does claim less wasted space on the sensor (higher fill factor) over the mkII, and greater quantum efficiency, so, ISO 50 may be able to have full DR, unlike the mkII, *and* more photons may be collected for the same real-world absolute exposure.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< David J. Littleboy - 09 Mar 2007 00:14 GMT > Take any Canon RAW file underexposed by several stops, and push it, What > do you see? Bands of color running horizontally, sometimes vertically. > This is not shot noise that is ruining the shadows. Look how high read > noise is in electrons, at the lowest ISOs - it is incredibly high, and > trashes the excellent shadows captured in the sensor wells. In the 5D and 1Dmk2, the ISO 100 read noise looks to me to be dominated by quantization errors; the bit depth of the A/D converter is two bits shy of what's needed, maybe three. The dynamic range at ISO 100 to 400 is simply consistent with a 12-bit A/D converter. It's only at ISO 800 and above that other noise sources intrude.
That's why the D200 has the same ISO 100 dynamic range as the 5D.
> Shot noise is > the least of our digital imaging problems, IMO, especially with large > sensors. I'm not seeing pattern noise in pused images. Here's a 5D ISO 3200 file pushed 3 stops. Straight from Lightroom with noise reduction (and sharpening) turned off.
http://www.pbase.com/davidjl/image/75374090/original
This is seriously amazing stuff. At ISO 6400, the 5D is producing images competitive with the dreck 35mm users get with Tri-X in Rodinal (ISO 400).
Here's what you get with noise reduction and a touch of sharpening.
http://www.pbase.com/davidjl/image/75359389/original
> That said, Canon does claim less wasted space on the sensor (higher fill > factor) over the mkII, and greater quantum efficiency, so, ISO 50 may be > able to have full DR, unlike the mkII, *and* more photons may be collected > for the same real-world absolute exposure. ISO 50 will remain problematic, since the well depth is inadequate.
David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan
Paul Rubin - 09 Mar 2007 00:24 GMT > I'm not seeing pattern noise in pused images. Here's a 5D ISO 3200 file > pushed 3 stops. Straight from Lightroom with noise reduction (and > sharpening) turned off. > > http://www.pbase.com/davidjl/image/75374090/original You mean this is at 25,600? Pretty cool. I've seen TMZ pushed to that speed and maybe the grain isn't worse, but the TMZ has no tonality to speak of with that much pushing.
David J. Littleboy - 09 Mar 2007 01:01 GMT >> I'm not seeing pattern noise in pushed images. Here's a 5D ISO 3200 file >> pushed 3 stops. Straight from Lightroom with noise reduction (and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > You mean this is at 25,600? Exactly!
> Pretty cool. I've seen TMZ pushed to > that speed and maybe the grain isn't worse, but the TMZ has no > tonality to speak of with that much pushing. I wonder if you are comparing apples to apples: that's a 100% crop from at 12.7MP original. Even with that much noise, that's a lot of pixels. I'd think pushed film viewed at that resolution would be a major disaster.
David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 09 Mar 2007 03:16 GMT >>>I'm not seeing pattern noise in pushed images. Here's a 5D ISO 3200 file >>>pushed 3 stops. Straight from Lightroom with noise reduction (and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Exactly! David, Pretty cool demonstration.
Here is pushing some other limits with a Canon 1D Mark II:
Night and Low Light Photography with Digital Cameras http://www.clarkvision.com/photoinfo/night.and.low.light.photography
Figures 3a, 3b are 623 second exposures at ISO 1600.
Figure 4, set 2 equivalent to ISO 66,450! Figure 4, set 3 is an average of 6 frames at ISO 374,000!
Figure 5, set 5 is a single frame at ISO 3,883,000 !!!
Figure 8: night scene at equivalent ISO 16,000. Figure 9: night scene at equivalent ISO 64,000 (no dark subtraction). Figure 12: night scene at equivalent ISO320,000 (with dark subtraction).
Figure 13: night scene: 64 frames averaged at ISO 320,000.
Try that with film: you would get nothing.
For Ray: Electronic sensors have quantum efficiencies in the 30% range, and film a percent or so, so right there, one sees that electronic sensors are much more sensitive. Next combine the fact that there is a threshold with film requiring a fair number of photons before a grain will record the light, then add the fact of reciprocity failure and there are significant technical reasons why film does not do well in low light situations.
Add the above facts and it is no wonder why amateur astronomers had pretty much abandoned film for digital cameras. Amateur astronomers are getting much better astrophotos with DSLRs than they every did with film, even when using DSLRs on smaller telescopes in light polluted skies! The results are truly astounding. For example: a 27-minute exposure from light polluted Denver of the Pleiades: http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.astrophoto-1/web/m45-700MM-8534-856 1_C16B-add27-v3-800.html is better than I ever did with the best long exposure professional astronomical film (103aF) from dark skies and longer exposures with faster lenses.
Action: DSLRs produce better images at high ISO than any film I ever used. E.g., here is a lion eating a zebra before sunrise on the Serengeti a few weeks ago (1/250 sec at ISO 800): http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.africa/web/lion.c01.23.2007.JZ3F024 0b-700.html I couldn't have gotten much of an image with film pushed to ISO 800. Other examples are on my web site.
Roger
Paul Rubin - 09 Mar 2007 03:26 GMT > Here is pushing some other limits with a Canon 1D Mark II: > > Night and Low Light Photography with Digital Cameras > http://www.clarkvision.com/photoinfo/night.and.low.light.photography Wow, neat. The super-high-ISO examples have very visible horizontal banding--what happens if you take that out with a notch filter?
Is there a feasible way to remove the Bayer filter from a DSLR sensor?
What about shorter exposures at super ISO's?
ASAAR - 09 Mar 2007 06:45 GMT > Is there a feasible way to remove the Bayer filter from a DSLR sensor? Would the Kodak DCS Pro 14n do? In a post from last July, a Bystander giveth thusly:
> The 14 megapixel images it produces contain appreciably more > information, as expressed in detail, colour, brightness range and so on > than the old Kodachrome 25 slides in my library that I produced with the > same lenses. They will reproduce excellently on A4 glossy magazine stock > with as fine a screen lpi as you want. but in concluding, all too quickly taketh away:
> My main anxiety about the Pro 14n, incidentally, is whether or not the > batteries for it will still be available for the life of the camera. Use > it in the right circumstances and the results are great -- but issues > like slow startup, horrid noise levels in low light and surprising moire > effects -- you wouldn't get that with Kodachrome -- easily justify the > camera's discontinuance. Paul Furman - 09 Mar 2007 06:53 GMT >>Is there a feasible way to remove the Bayer filter from a DSLR sensor? As in B&W?
> Would the Kodak DCS Pro 14n do? In a post from last July, a > Bystander giveth thusly: Is this monocrome?
>>The 14 megapixel images it produces contain appreciably more >>information, as expressed in detail, colour, brightness range and so on [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >>effects -- you wouldn't get that with Kodachrome -- easily justify the >>camera's discontinuance. Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 09 Mar 2007 13:28 GMT >> Here is pushing some other limits with a Canon 1D Mark II: >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Wow, neat. The super-high-ISO examples have very visible horizontal > banding--what happens if you take that out with a notch filter? I have not tried that.
But all this talk about banding is a little mis-informed in my opinion. John Sheehy seems to be saying that because there is banding obvious at the low end is evidence for non-photon noise sources. While true, one must look at the level of the banding. For example, examine Figure 5 on the above web page. Set 5 in Figure 5 shows banding at a similar level as the signal in panels A and B (the left most two squares). But look at the table: the photons per pixel is only 1.2 in panel A and 0.8 in panel B! The read noise is 3.9 electrons, so the pattern noise is about 1/4 the read noise. The problem is that our eyes plus brain are very good at picking out patterns, whether that pattern is below random noise, or embedded in other patterns.
It would be interesting to try some filtering on the images.
> Is there a feasible way to remove the Bayer filter from a DSLR sensor? I do not know.
> What about shorter exposures at super ISO's? Figure 12 on the above web page is a 1/20 second exposure at equivalent ISO = 320,000. Do you want faster than that? It is simply a matter of photons per pixel per exposure. I would not think faster exposures with similar photons/pixel would appear any different. Longer at lower light levels would not appear any different either until noise from dark current starts to show. Dark current noise is the square root of the dark current, and the 1D Mark II under the temperatures used was around 0.03 electron/second. So a 10 second exposure would about a 0.5 electron noise to the 3.9 electron read noise. Thermal noise equals read noise after about 5 minutes.
Roger
acl - 09 Mar 2007 13:49 GMT On Mar 9, 2:28 pm, "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <usern...@qwest.net> wrote:
> >> Here is pushing some other limits with a Canon 1D Mark II: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > brain are very good at picking out patterns, whether that pattern > is below random noise, or embedded in other patterns. Actually I read his posts as saying, not that photon shot noise is less important than you say in absolute terms, but that he finds banding more disturbing. It seems to be a perceptual judgement; he doesn't appear to be claiming anything quantitatively different from what you say, just that it bothers him.
For what it's worth, I personally also find patterned noise much more disturbing than random noise (I really don't mind random noise all that much unless it gets to very high levels; of course it complicates my postprocessing but that is another story). It also seems to be the case that this patterned noise is more obvious to some people than to others: I have prints from pushed high isos which I find have very disturbing patterned noise (it jumps out at me immediately, and is perceptually almost as strong as the image), while my wife and a couple of friends don't notice it until I point it out, and then seem to be unaware of it unless they consciously decide to "see" it. I can't avoid seeing it at all. It seems to depend on the person; maybe this is part of this confusion (or maybe not).
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 10 Mar 2007 02:33 GMT > Actually I read his posts as saying, not that photon shot noise is > less important than you say in absolute terms, but that he finds [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > that much unless it gets to very high levels; of course it complicates > my postprocessing but that is another story). I too agree that pattern noise is more obvious that random noise. Probably by at least a factor of ten. It is our eye+brain's ability to pick out a pattern in the presence of a lot of random noise that makes us able to detect many things in everyday life. It probably developed as a necessary thing for survival. But then it becomes a problem when we try and make something artificial and we see the defects in it. It gives the makers of camera gear quite a challenge.
Roger
John Sheehy - 11 Mar 2007 15:47 GMT
> I too agree that pattern noise is more obvious that random noise. > Probably by at least a factor of ten. It is our eye+brain's [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > and make something artificial and we see the defects in it. > It gives the makers of camera gear quite a challenge. How does that co-exist with your conclusion that current cameras are limited by shot noise?
Saying that current cameras are limited by shot noise means that all future improvements lie purely in well depth, quantum efficiency, fill factor, and sensor size (you'd probably add "large pixels", but I'd disagree). The fact is, a 10:1 S:N on the 1DmkII at ISO 100 would be 1.5 stops further below saturation, and 1:1 would be 4.3 stop further below it, if there were no blackframe read noise
http://www.pbase.com/jps_photo/image/75392571
and that is only statistically, without consideration for the pattern noise effects, which widen the visual gap even further.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Bart van der Wolf - 12 Mar 2007 00:15 GMT >> I too agree that pattern noise is more obvious that random noise. >> Probably by at least a factor of ten. It is our eye+brain's [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > How does that co-exist with your conclusion that current cameras are > limited by shot noise? Shot noise is a physical limitation, not a man made one. The man made limitations can be improved upon.
 Signature Bart
acl - 12 Mar 2007 14:32 GMT > >> I too agree that pattern noise is more obvious that random noise. > >> Probably by at least a factor of ten. It is our eye+brain's [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Shot noise is a physical limitation, not a man made one. The man made > limitations can be improved upon. The speed of light is also a physical limitation. Would you therefore agree to the statement that the top speeds of current spaceships are limited by the speed of light, and therefore we must work on finding ways to circumvent that (rather than on finding some better propulsion system than semi-controlled explosions) :)? (I'm not claiming that banding really is the main limitation, by the way, I actually agree with Roger and presumably you).
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 12 Mar 2007 04:17 GMT > >> I too agree that pattern noise is more obvious that random noise. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > and that is only statistically, without consideration for the pattern noise > effects, which widen the visual gap even further. Nice plot. If you look at my past posts, you would also see that I've said for at least a couple of years 14-bit or higher A/D are needed too because current DSLRs are limited by 12-bit converters. Some attacked me in this NG with the idea that "if more than 12-bits were really needed, then why haven't camera manufacturers done it?" We'll we now see they have, and I'm sure 14 or more-bits will become a new standard in future DSLRs.
Regarding fixed pattern noise versus photon Poisson noise, your plot and some simple illustrations show what is dominant. First clue, look at the thousands of images on the net. How many show fixed pattern noise? It is very rare. You tend to see fixed pattern noise at the very lowest lows in an image. Second, if fixed pattern noise is really a factor, guess what, you can calibrate most of it out with dark frame subtraction. I think good examples of fixed pattern noise is illustrated at: http://www.clarkvision.com/photoinfo/night.and.low.light.photography Figure 1, for example shows two merged low light images and fixed pattern noise is not apparent, nor is it the dominant noise source in the image. Figure 2 shows the black sky above the Sydney opera house in an ISO 100 20 second exposure. Fixed pattern noise is a little over 1 bit out of 12 in the raw data. It simply is not a factor. But where the scene has signal, e.g. the lit roof, noise is proportional to the square root of the signal strength, with photon noise up to 18 out of 4095 in the 12-bit raw file. So, over most of the range, photon noise dominates. The low end, the bottom few values or bottom couple of bits, is a combination of photon noise, read noise, and fixed pattern noise. That gives about 10 bits out of 12 with photon noise as the dominant noise source. Again, if you work at the low end, calibrate out the majority of fixed pattern noise with dark frames.
Let's work an example. Let's assume fixed pattern noise is more objectionable by 10 times random noise (this is a reasonable estimate for me, and I find fixed pattern noise quite objectionable). But then with processing, e.g. dark frame subtraction, it can be reduced about 10x, then filtered and reduced more, all with minimal impact on resolution. Random photon noise in an image from can only be reduced by pixel averaging, thus reducing spatial resolution.
Let's use your full well depth, rounding off to 53,000 electrons. Fixed pattern noise in DSLRs like the 20D and 1D Mark II are between 1 and 2 bits in the A/D at low ISOs. At low signal levels, line-to-line pattern noise is on the order of 7 electrons in the 1D Mark II, with low frequency offset of a few tens of electrons (at ISO 100 fixed pattern noise appears at about the 1-bit level, which is ~13 electrons. The low frequency fixed pattern noise is entirely eliminated by a dark frame subtraction, and line-to-line (what you call 1D) is reduced by about 10X with dark frame subtraction.
So there are multiple conditions. Here is one example:
ISO 100, 1D Mark II, 53,000 electron full signal:
Signal Photon noise Read Noise Fixed-pattern What noise dominates (elect- stops (electrons) +A/D noise noise Photon, read, or pattern rons) (electrons) (electrons)
53,000 0 230 17 ~13 Photon 12,250 -4 110 17 ~13 Photon 3,312 -6 57 17 ~13 Photon 828 -8 29 17 ~13 Photon 207 -10 14 17 ~13 all 3 similar 51 -12 7 17 ~13 read + pattern
The above table demonstrate the the sensor has noise dominated by photon statistics over most of its dynamic range. Each generation of cameras that comes out pushed the floor where other noise sources in the electronics show. It is likely we'll see the 1D Mark III push those limits a stop or two lower. But photon noise remains and is the ultimate limit.
Here is another test series that illustrates the above conclusions: Digital Camera Raw Converter Shadow Detail and Image Editor Limitations: Factors in Getting Shadow Detail in Images http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/raw.converter.shadow.detail
Figure 6 shows areas from +2 to -7.6 stops. But if you look at the different raw conversions, you'll see widely different results and wildly different fixed pattern noise. Then look at Figure 16: the camera jpeg looks pretty clean with less pattern noise than some of the raw conversions. So when you say you don't believe photon noise versus fixed pattern noise, understand the effects of converters too.
Roger
John Sheehy - 11 Mar 2007 15:45 GMT
> But all this talk about banding is a little > mis-informed in my opinion. John Sheehy seems to be saying that [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > brain are very good at picking out patterns, whether that pattern > is below random noise, or embedded in other patterns. Yes, that is a problem, and that is exactly why you can't evaluate noise by standard deviation alone. It doesn't even take human perception to focus on the banding; binning and downsampling math focus on it too; an blackframe from a 20D with 10x the total noise as the horizontal banding component will show *only* banding noise, and no visible 2D noise at all, if binned down far enough. I think that this fact speaks volumes as to how useless standard deviations and S/N ratios based on them can be when comparing different *characteristics* of noises.
> Thermal noise equals read noise after about 5 minutes. Statistically, perhaps, but standard deviation does not tell the full story. You can clearly compare the standard deviations of two noise situations with the same characteristics, which only vary in terms of amplitude, but noise comes in a variety of characteristics, and the standard deviations are not necessarily related to the visual strength of noise when the characteristics are different. Dark current noise is much more visible than shot noise, with the same standard deviation, because most of its energy goes into a minority of pixels.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Bart van der Wolf - 12 Mar 2007 00:11 GMT >> The problem is that our eyes plus brain are very good at >> picking out patterns, whether that pattern is below random >> noise, or embedded in other patterns. What's worse, we see non-existing patterns (e.g. a triangle in the following link) because we want to: <http://www.xs4all.nl/~bvdwolf/temp/Triangle-or-not.gif>.
> Yes, that is a problem, and that is exactly why you can't evaluate > noise by standard deviation alone. That depends what one wants to evaluate. Standard deviation (together with mean) only tells something about pixel to pixel (or sensel to sensel) performance. It doesn't allow to make valid judgements about anything larger. Banding could be either calibrated out of the larger structure, or an analysis of systematic noise should be done (and care should be taken to not mistake Raw-converter effects for camera or sensor array effects).
 Signature Bart
acl - 12 Mar 2007 00:38 GMT > >> The problem is that our eyes plus brain are very good at > >> picking out patterns, whether that pattern is below random [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > sensel) performance. It doesn't allow to make valid judgements about > anything larger. As a matter of fact, they don't tell you anything (literally) about pixel to pixel behaviour. If I tell you that a signal has mean zero and given standard dev, what else can you tell me about it? Nothing. It could be anything from an otherwise random time series to a sine wave to a series of square waves to anything else. It's like knowing the first two coefficients in an infinite power series (well that's exactly what it is: the first two coefficients in an infinite power series).
the reason people use the first two moments (mean and std) is that the noises under consideration are often assumed to be gaussian, in which case these 2 qtys completely characterise the noise. this is usually a good approximation when the noise comes from many different sources.
> Banding could be either calibrated out of the larger > structure, or an analysis of systematic noise should be done (and care > should be taken to not mistake Raw-converter effects for camera or > sensor array effects). Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 12 Mar 2007 13:54 GMT >>>> The problem is that our eyes plus brain are very good at >>>> picking out patterns, whether that pattern is below random [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > exactly what it is: the first two coefficients in an infinite power > series). And that is why people who evaluate sensors do more than simply study the standard deviation of one image. To understand noise sources, the standard procedure is to make a series of exposures and analyze the results from the different test conditions. e.g.:
The Nikon D50 Digital Camera: Sensor Noise, Dynamic Range, and Full Well Analysis http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/evaluation-nikon-d50
http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/long-exposure-comparisons/index.html
and more at: http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/index.html#sensor_analysis
other: http://www.astrosurf.org/buil/20d/20dvs10d.htm
Roger
> the reason people use the first two moments (mean and std) is that the > noises under consideration are often assumed to be gaussian, in which [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> should be taken to not mistake Raw-converter effects for camera or >> sensor array effects). acl - 12 Mar 2007 14:27 GMT On Mar 12, 2:53 pm, "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <usern...@qwest.net> wrote:
> And that is why people who evaluate sensors do more than simply > study the standard deviation of one image. To understand noise sources, Never claimed otherwise! By the way, why don't people study the full power spectrum of the noise (ie of a blackframe)? That would give quite a lot of information (it should allow distinguishing between the white part of the noise and things like banding). And it should not be too hard (eg with IRIS, split the channels and FT them). And if you do that to an average of many frames, you'll be studying repeatable noise only. Is there some particular reason this isn't done by anybody?
> The Nikon D50 Digital Camera: > Sensor Noise, Dynamic Range, and Full Well Analysis > http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/evaluation-nikon-d50 That's quite interesting, why don't you include dark frames from more cameras? I'd think that this would be quite useful for people intending to do very low light work.
> http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/long-exposure-comparisons/inde... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Roger Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 12 Mar 2007 15:57 GMT > On Mar 12, 2:53 pm, "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" > <usern...@qwest.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > that to an average of many frames, you'll be studying repeatable noise > only. Is there some particular reason this isn't done by anybody? Time and effort--remember most are doing this for free out of curisoty. I started doing this to try and get the best camera for astrophotography. Then after seeing the trends, it became clear to me that because the photon noise limit had been reached, one can model and predict performance pretty closely. Now I find it interesting about the claims coming out in some press releases that seem to ignore physical reality ;-). I and other astrophotographers tend to ignore fixed pattern noise because we can calibrate most of it out of our images. If that is an issue for other people, then I suggest they learn how to take dark frames, average them, and subtract them from their images. It is really pretty easy, but for best results, it needs to be done on linear data. Another calibration that can improve images is flat field calibration, which not only corrects for pixel to pixel variations, but corrects for light fall-off from lenses.
But if someone wants to pay me to run more tests......
>> The Nikon D50 Digital Camera: >> Sensor Noise, Dynamic Range, and Full Well Analysis >> http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/evaluation-nikon-d50 > That's quite interesting, why don't you include dark frames from more > cameras? I'd think that this would be quite useful for people > intending to do very low light work. Again, time. I do have a fair amount of additional data for a number of cameras but I have not had time to write it up.
Roger
>> http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/long-exposure-comparisons >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >> Roger Doug McDonald - 12 Mar 2007 16:32 GMT >> On Mar 12, 2:53 pm, "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" >> <usern...@qwest.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > me that because the photon noise limit had been reached, one can > model and predict performance pretty closely. I have the Canon 30D. I took a bunch of very underexposed shots recently (no tripod at critical time) and found that background subtraction didn't help much. The annoying noise is some sort of horizontal banding or streaking (these are landscape shots). Looks sort of like they scan the image TV-wise and this is 1/f noise in the amplifiers.
Comments?
Doug McDonald
John Sheehy - 13 Mar 2007 14:44 GMT > I have the Canon 30D. I took a bunch of very underexposed shots > recently (no tripod at critical time) and found that background [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Comments? That's pretty typical of digital cameras in general; it is simply more visible in cameras with a certain ratio of banding noise to total noise. For the 30D it should be the same as the 20D (ignoring the 30D's fake, extra ISOs):
http://www.pbase.com/jps_photo/image/65737967/original
The yellow line represents standard deviation of a blackframe, divided by 10 to fit in with the horizontal and vertical banding noises (they'd be flat if the entire chart scaled for the the yellow line).
A few things become very clear here; the banding is generally only about 1/10 the strength of the total noise, and yet it is highly visible. With more read noise, the banding would be less obvious (although it may still contribute somewhat to visible noise, just without the obvious pattern). The higher ISOs are all normalized for ISO 100; IOW the values for ISO 200 are divided by two, ISO 400 values are divided by 4, etc, so these are proportional to electrons as units of noise. All noises decrease as you get to the higher ISOs, and the total noise looks like it is leveling off a bit from 800 to 1600, but still had room to improve a little at 3200, but 3200 is "fake" and is really ISO 1600 amplification, multiplied by two, so it is exactly the same as ISO 1600. The horizontal banding is still dropping dramatically from 800 to 1600, and seems to have the capability of dropping even further if the amplification went to 3200 or even 6400.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< John Sheehy - 15 Mar 2007 14:31 GMT > I and other astrophotographers tend to ignore fixed pattern noise > because we can calibrate most of it out of our images. I'm not sure where "fixed pattern noise" came into play here; the issue was read noise and one of it's components, 1-D noise. There is, for all intents and purposes, zero fixed pattern noise in my 20D. Subtracting a stack of black frames from a short exposure results in nothing but slightly higher noise.
> If that is an > issue for other people, then I suggest they learn how to take > dark frames, average them, and subtract them from their images. What about the read noise in short exposures?
> It is really pretty easy, but for best results, it needs to be > done on linear data. And in the case of Canons which have "negative noise" at the blackpoint, it needs to be done without any clipping at the black level.
> Another calibration that can improve images is > flat field calibration, which not only corrects for pixel to pixel > variations, but corrects for light fall-off from lenses.
> But if someone wants to pay me to run more tests...... I don't feel like financing anything right now, but I might suggest that when you have the time, you do a "gap" test of large vs small pixels. Your 1DmkII vs S70 page seems to be about pixel size, but it is really about sensor size. Do a test with a small-pixel camera, and the 1DmkII, both using the same real focal length, the same Av value, the same Tv value, the same ISO setting, of the same detailed subject from the same distance. I guarantee that your big pixels will fall to the ground like Goliath, when viewing the subject at any magnification, from both downsampled to both upsampled, or printed large. This is the real test of pixel size. What you seem to overlook in your analyses is the fact that standard deviation is only *one* factor in the noise equation; magnification is another, and the low noise of big pixels is visually magnified when the pixels are magnified along with the subject.
I am quite certain that the only benefits of big pixels are:
1) quicker readout time and less storage requirements, and
2) slight benefit in photons collection rate per unit of sensor area due to less wasted space on the sensor (not always realized, however; my 1.97u FZ50, for example, collects about the same number of photons per unit of area as the 1DmkII, at RAW saturation for the same ISO).
Here is one of my tests; it needs to be redone, because I realized after doing it that ISO 1600 on the FZ50 is crippled by a very bad amplifier, that is worse than pushing 100 to 1600. Here is the original, however:
http://www.pbase.com/jps_photo/image/74020772
Don't forget that the 10D images would need to be sharpened more, sharpening the noise as well.
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<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< acl - 15 Mar 2007 17:24 GMT > that standard deviation is only *one* factor in the noise equation; > magnification is another, and the low noise of big pixels is visually > magnified when the pixels are magnified along with the subject. Exactly, and if you don't need the extra pixels you can bin.
> I am quite certain that the only benefits of big pixels are: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > 1.97u FZ50, for example, collects about the same number of photons per > unit of area as the 1DmkII, at RAW saturation for the same ISO). Well, as long as there are no constant noise sources (eg 10 electrons/ pixel independent of the area). I have no idea if there are or not.
John Sheehy - 16 Mar 2007 18:50 GMT >> that standard deviation is only *one* factor in the noise equation; >> magnification is another, and the low noise of big pixels is visually >> magnified when the pixels are magnified along with the subject. > > Exactly, and if you don't need the extra pixels you can bin. Yes, but I think it is very important to stress that there is no need to bin to get the benefit. Often, the situation is described in such a way that binning or downsampling are *necessary* to get the benefit. There is a cult of pixel-for-pixel's sake that misses the forest (image or subject) for the trees (pixels), IMO. To me, the most important quality factors in descending importance are:
1) SQ (subject quality)
2) IQ (image quality)
3) PQ (pixel quality)
If #3 doesn't also help #1, it is in vein.
>> 2) slight benefit in photons collection rate per unit of sensor area >> due >> to less wasted space on the sensor (not always realized, however; my >> 1.97u FZ50, for example, collects about the same number of photons per >> unit of area as the 1DmkII, at RAW saturation for the same ISO).
> Well, as long as there are no constant noise sources (eg 10 electrons/ > pixel independent of the area). I have no idea if there are or not. Blackframe read noise on my FZ50 is about 3.34 electrons at ISO 100 (4800 electrons at saturation), and about 2.71 electrons at ISO 1600 (about 300 electrons at saturation). Binned down 3x3 (to DSLR size), that's about 0.9 and 1.11 electrons (43,200 and 2700 max), respectively.
These values are derived from multiplying the standard deviation of FZ50 blackframes by 1.66, since the Panasonic RAW files, unfortunately, are clipped at the blackpoint, a very bad idea that most camera manufacturers engage in. Canon is one of the few that leave a bias in the RAW data with a full symmetrical noise histogram with positive and negative noise. Clipping at black means bright, noise-clouded blacks with minute signals clipped. Blackpoint clipping should not occur, IMO, until your RAW conversion needs to enter a gamma-adjusted state (where negative signal or noise are meaningless). All white-balancing, resampling, and demosaicing should be done before the clipping, to maintain black blacks, and a minimum of noise. I would guess that most converters don't maintain this state, but clip Canons at black immediately upon loading RAW data to get it in the same state as most other cameras. In my own hand-conversions in IRIS and in PS with filtermeister and RAW linear greyscale sources, I have made conversions with much less color tint and bright haze in the deepest shadows. In fact, I have even promoted images to a higher bit-depth before any interpolative actions, for more precision. RAW converters, generally, are taking a lot of short-cuts, IMO, and are not delivering what they can in these areas. They seem focused mainly on the post-processing values like skin color and tonal curves in the highlight areas, etc.
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<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< John Sheehy - 16 Mar 2007 21:03 GMT > Blackframe read noise on my FZ50 is about 3.34 electrons at ISO 100 > (4800 electrons at saturation), and about 2.71 electrons at ISO 1600 > (about 300 electrons at saturation). Binned down 3x3 (to DSLR size), > that's about 0.9 and 1.11 electrons (43,200 and 2700 max), > respectively. Sorry, I had just woken up after an 18-hour emergency shift at work.
I divided by three when I should have multiplied by three. I was thinking in terms of the noise-to-signal ratio, and applied it to absolute photon counts.
That should have read:
Blackframe read noise on my FZ50 is about 3.34 electrons at ISO 100 (4800 electrons at saturation), and about 2.71 electrons at ISO 1600 (about 300 electrons at saturation). Binned down 3x3 (to DSLR size), that's about 8.1 and 10 electrons (43,200 and 2700 max), respectively.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< acl - 16 Mar 2007 21:28 GMT > Sorry, I had just woken up after an 18-hour emergency shift at work. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > that's about 8.1 and 10 electrons (43,200 and 2700 max), > respectively. OK, I missed this post before, that explains it. Thanks.
acl - 16 Mar 2007 21:24 GMT > >> that standard deviation is only *one* factor in the noise equation; > >> magnification is another, and the low noise of big pixels is visually [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > electrons at saturation). Binned down 3x3 (to DSLR size), that's about > 0.9 and 1.11 electrons (43,200 and 2700 max), respectively. I don't understand, why are you dividing by three? for noise r, you want sqrt(9*r^2)=3r, ie around 10 and 9 electrons or so. Or am I missing something?
> These values are derived from multiplying the standard deviation of FZ50 > blackframes by 1.66, since the Panasonic RAW files, unfortunately, are > clipped at the blackpoint, a very bad idea that most camera manufacturers > engage in. Canon is one of the few that leave a bias in the RAW data > with a full symmetrical noise histogram with positive and negative noise. Yes I think Nikon does this too I didn't check in detail though, just an impression I got from looking at blackframes in IRIS some time ago; but maybe it is also dcraw's handling of the data, I don't know. The standard deviation of the noise was slightly higher at slightly larger raw values (5 or so) than at 0; so I thought that it is simply clipping the left edge of the noise distribution. But I didn't specifically check.
> Clipping at black means bright, noise-clouded blacks with minute signals > clipped. Blackpoint clipping should not occur, IMO, until your RAW [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > focused mainly on the post-processing values like skin color and tonal > curves in the highlight areas, etc. I must admit that I cannot imagine that this clipping will have any serious consequences, except maybe if you do binning (it'll lighten the black), but I'm not sure how important it would be. But maybe if it's really noise then it will have an effect. I can't check, though. Could you post examples with and without this when you get time? I am curious.
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 16 Mar 2007 04:11 GMT >>I and other astrophotographers tend to ignore fixed pattern noise >>because we can calibrate most of it out of our images. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > stack of black frames from a short exposure results in nothing but > slightly higher noise. Fixed pattern noise occurs in different ways with different sensors. All sensors have fixed pattern noise, even your 20D unless you have a magical one. For example, see: http://www.astrosurf.org/buil/5d/test.htm It is in French, but the pictures are labeled well enough with 30D, 5D etc, that you can see the effects. Common is vertical striping and amplifier glow. There is no camera, CCD or CMOS that doesn't have fixed pattern noise.
Figure 10 at this page: http://www.clarkvision.com/photoinfo/night.and.low.light.photography shows that the Canon 1D Mark II has a low level background offset. That too is fixed pattern noise. So is the line striping you see in the images on this page. All cameras have these effects.
A good example of amplifier glow creating an offset near the edge of the frame is at: http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/long-exposure-comparisons e.g. see Figure 2b.
>> If that is an >>issue for other people, then I suggest they learn how to take >>dark frames, average them, and subtract them from their images. > > What about the read noise in short exposures? Read noise produces a random signal added to all other signals, regardless of exposure. It is a property of reading the sensor, not a property of the exposure time. Examples on the above two web pages show read noise in both short and long exposures.
>>It is really pretty easy, but for best results, it needs to be >>done on linear data. > > And in the case of Canons which have "negative noise" at the blackpoint, > it needs to be done without any clipping at the black level. Sensors collect photons, which are converted to electrons. The signal is always positive or zero, not negative. The readout electronics add a negative offset so that the signals do not go negative. Of course, if noise is too high, then the output signal could hit zero. Very few pixels are zero in most cameras, even at the shortest exposure times in the dark. (I know you know this; I'm adding information to provide a complete story for others reading, so please don't take offense; I know you have studied sensors in detail and you have provided great information to us for years.) So, I don't know what you mean by negative noise.
>>Another calibration that can improve images is >>flat field calibration, which not only corrects for pixel to pixel [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > 1.97u FZ50, for example, collects about the same number of photons per > unit of area as the 1DmkII, at RAW saturation for the same ISO). Here is the fundamental fallacy of your assertion that the only benefit is better fill factor (that is what you describe in #2 above): The physics of lenses, and not directly related to sensors at all.
Every lens at a given f/ratio delivers, for a given light source, the same surface brightness in th4e focal plane. Another way to put this is the photons per square micron is constant at a given f/ratio regardless of the lens focal length. So an f/4 lens of 20mm focal length looking at a gray card in sunlight delivers the same number of photons per square micron to its focal plane as does a 500 mm f/4 lens looking at the same gray card. It is a simple deduction, that given two sensors, identical in every way including quantum efficiency, read noise, and fill factor, that the sensor with larger pixels collects more photons simply due to lens physics.
An 8 micron pixel collects 16 times the photons as a pixel 2 microns in size (8*8/(2*2) = 16), and that is exactly what we observe with today's digital cameras. For example, see: Digital Cameras: Does Pixel Size Matter? Part 2: Example Images using Different Pixel Sizes http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/does.pixel.size.matter2
> Here is one of my tests; it needs to be redone, because I realized after > doing it that ISO 1600 on the FZ50 is crippled by a very bad amplifier, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Don't forget that the 10D images would need to be sharpened more, > sharpening the noise as well. Your test is biased in that the two images from the two cameras are not comparable. By using two different sized sensors with the same focal length, of course the sensor with smaller pixels sees finer detail. But the large sensor shows a larger field of view that is not covered by the smaller sensor at all. So depending on who wanted the image, one could draw different conclusions: the person who wanted a wide field of view would choose the large sensor; one who wanted a telephoto image would choose the small pixels. But in either case, the pixels from the small sensor would be noisier in proportion to the square root ratio of the areas of each pixel.
Roger
David J. Littleboy - 16 Mar 2007 04:29 GMT >> I don't feel like financing anything right now, but I might suggest that >> when you have the time, you do a "gap" test of large vs small pixels. [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > the sensor with larger pixels collects more photons > simply due to lens physics. I think you guys are talking past each other here.
I think John is arguing that _for a sensor of a given size_, larger pixels aren't any better.
David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 16 Mar 2007 05:04 GMT > I think you guys are talking past each other here. > > I think John is arguing that _for a sensor of a given size_, larger pixels > aren't any better. 1) Well, his example used 2 different sized sensors.
2) There is a difference. The signal you record has added read noise. A larger pixel collects more photons so the signal is larger compared to the read noise. Thus you can detect fainter things, or have better high ISO performance. If you sum the signal from a smaller pixels to equal the area of a larger pixel size, you are also adding read noise, so you don't gain as much as having the larger pixel with one read noise.
Roger
acl - 16 Mar 2007 13:32 GMT On Mar 16, 7:04 am, "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <usern...@qwest.net> wrote:
> 2) There is a difference. The signal you record has added > read noise. A larger pixel collects more photons [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > you are also adding read noise, so you don't gain > as much as having the larger pixel with one read noise. Is read noise fixed per pixel, per unit area, or something else?
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 16 Mar 2007 14:49 GMT > On Mar 16, 7:04 am, "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" > <usern...@qwest.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Is read noise fixed per pixel, per unit area, or something else? Read noise is per pixel. Say you had 2 sensors, one with half the pixel size, so you needed to add 4 pixels to equal the area of the larger pixel. Lats say both had great read noise of 4 electrons. The larger pixel gets: X + 4 electrons noise. The smaller pixel sensor, adding 4 pixels gets: X + sqrt(4)*4 = X + 8, so the read noise is effectively doubled.
Read noise for a given sensor is dependent on the design of the sensor and how the readout is configured. Read ranges from just under 4 to about 30 electrons and is not dependent on pixel size. For example, see Figure 3 at; http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/digital.sensor.performance.summary
At low ISO, and low bit count (e.g. 12 bits) and noise in the A/D converter contributes greater noise than the true read noise from the sensor.
Roger
acl - 16 Mar 2007 16:15 GMT On Mar 16, 3:46 pm, "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <usern...@qwest.net> wrote:
> > On Mar 16, 7:04 am, "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" > > <usern...@qwest.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > X + sqrt(4)*4 = X + 8, so the read noise is effectively > doubled. Yes of course if the noise is independent of pixel size. This is why I asked.
> Read noise for a given sensor is dependent on the design of the sensor > and how the readout is configured. Read ranges from just under 4 [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > At low ISO, and low bit count (e.g. 12 bits) and noise in the A/D converter > contributes greater noise than the true read noise from the sensor. OK thanks. That explains why it is independent of pixel size. I'd have thought that, except for noise coming from amplifiers and the readout circuitry, the rest (things like thermal noise) should scale with the detector area. But on second thought, this is far more complicated than the simplistic model I have, there are capacitors, surface states (for these small sizes) etc.
But personally I hope this kind of noise could go down enough so we can have high pixel density sensors which will give more flexibility in trading off noise for resolution. Hopefully with built-in binning for the raw files too, as always having 60MB raw files seems a bit wasteful (but the again 300KB for an executable seemed huge to me in 1988).
John Sheehy - 16 Mar 2007 21:18 GMT > But personally I hope this kind of noise could go down enough so we > can have high pixel density sensors which will give more flexibility > in trading off noise for resolution. Hopefully with built-in binning > for the raw files too, as always having 60MB raw files seems a bit > wasteful (but the again 300KB for an executable seemed huge to me in > 1988). The smaller the pixels become, the less bit depth you need to record them at the same level of accuracy.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< acl - 16 Mar 2007 21:27 GMT > > But personally I hope this kind of noise could go down enough so we > > can have high pixel density sensors which will give more flexibility [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > The smaller the pixels become, the less bit depth you need to record them > at the same level of accuracy. Yes you're right. If the full well capacity is proportional to pixel area (and it must be something like that), then the size of a raw file should in principle remain roughly constant as we decrease the pixel size (until edge effects take over and it is not useful to miniaturise any more due to the fill factor not being 1).
Nice to know that we won't be needing 100GB cards soon.
John Sheehy - 16 Mar 2007 20:53 GMT > On Mar 16, 7:04 am, "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" > <usern...@qwest.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Is read noise fixed per pixel, per unit area, or something else? It's something that happens when reading the pixels, and has more to do with the electronics involved than anything else. It includes noise from all parts of the readout chain (at the pixel, in the amplifier, in the readout wiring, in the ADC, etc. Canon is very good at keeping it low, relative to signal, at high ISOs compared to most other companies, which seem to just amplify the same noise to a higher amplitude.
There are basically three categories in the read noise vs ISO category; Cameras like Canon DSLRs that have less read noise at ISO 1600 than ISO 100, in electrons, cameras like the Pentax K10D which have the same read noise in electrons at all ISOs, and cameras like my FZ50, which does a very good job of readout at ISO 100, but gets more read noise in electrons at ISO 100.
Of course, the most relevant part of read noise at the pixel level, as measured in units of electrons, is the ratio of the maximum number of electrons digitized at the ISO, and the read noise in electrons. That determines the lowest signal level, relative to saturation, where a 1:1 S/N could be obtained, if blackframe read noise was the only noise.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< acl - 16 Mar 2007 21:13 GMT > > On Mar 16, 7:04 am, "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" > > <usern...@qwest.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > relative to signal, at high ISOs compared to most other companies, which > seem to just amplify the same noise to a higher amplitude. Maybe I didn't phrase my question carefully: Is it dependent on the area of the pixel? For example, something like thermal noise should be proportional to the active volume of the photodetector (to a first approximation at least), while noise which is produced by the amplifier should be independent of the actual area. The point of the question is to find out whether it will scale down with the pixels or not, and if it does, do we gain or lose? eg if it was proportional to the volume, then scaling down to half the linear dimensions would increase the s/n ratio, as the number of photons detected would be 1/4 but the noise would be 1/8 (this is supposed to be a sketch to explain what I mean, not a serious argument).
Of course it is obvious that eventually there's a limit, for small enough structures everything changes, but this should be at the scale of a few nm at most, not microns, so irrelevant for us.
> There are basically three categories in the read noise vs ISO category; > Cameras like Canon DSLRs that have less read noise at ISO 1600 than ISO [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > determines the lowest signal level, relative to saturation, where a 1:1 > S/N could be obtained, if blackframe read noise was the only noise. Yes and the question relevant to our subject is how the two scale. The signal scales with the square of the linear size, but the noise? That is the point.
John Sheehy - 16 Mar 2007 23:36 GMT John Sheehy <JPS@no.komm> wrote in news:Xns98F5A1C552A9Fjpsnokomm@ 130.81.64.196:
> There are basically three categories in the read noise vs ISO category; > Cameras like Canon DSLRs that have less read noise at ISO 1600 than ISO > 100, in electrons, cameras like the Pentax K10D which have the same read > noise in electrons at all ISOs, and cameras like my FZ50, which does a > very good job of readout at ISO 100, but gets more read noise in > electrons at ISO 100. That should have been "at ISO 1600" in the last line.
Does usenet have editing yet? :)
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< John Sheehy - 16 Mar 2007 21:15 GMT > If you sum the signal from a smaller > pixels to equal the area of a larger pixel size, > you are also adding read noise, so you don't gain > as much as having the larger pixel with one read noise. No. Read noise doesn't add linearly. 9 pixels binned into one triples the pixel read noise in electrons, while multiplying the signal electrons by 9, resulting in 3x the signal-to-readnoise ratio. Have you ever binned blackframes?
With CCDs, on-chip binning can actually increase the ratio further, as they can add the same read noise to 4 pixels as they can to one pixel. There's a Dalsa paper about this technique. Such hardware binning is the only reason besides storage/speed issues to do the binning in-camera, IMO; otherwise, more and smaller pixels are better (especially if RAW data is not clipped at the blackpoint).
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Lionel - 16 Mar 2007 05:12 GMT >I think you guys are talking past each other here. > >I think John is arguing that _for a sensor of a given size_, larger pixels >aren't any better. But they /are/ better! - That's why the sensor designers are constantly trying to improve the fill-factor, ie; make the pixels (or, more accurately, the actual photo diode surface, which is smaller than the pixel size) bigger for a given sensor size/resolution ratio. This is because the bigger the suface of the photodiode (as a proportion of the size of that pixel on the sensor), the more photons it'll collect for a given exposure. And, all else being equal, more photons equals a better signal to noise ratio.
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John Sheehy - 16 Mar 2007 21:37 GMT >>I think you guys are talking past each other here. >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > for a given exposure. And, all else being equal, more photons equals a > better signal to noise ratio. Bigger pixels capture more photons per *PIXEL*; not per unit of sensor area, which is much more relevant. Noise per pixel is just a myopic, "missing-the-forest-for-the-trees" academic curiosity with no direct relationship to practical photography, in terms of pixel density.
Think hard about this, if you think large pixels give better images, for shot noise reasons:
Imagine that you had 16 square containers, and you gave them to an assistant, to place in a tight 4x4 array out in a field, to measure rainfall during a certain period of time.
Your assistant is me, and I decide to replace the 16 containers with 64 square containers, 4 of which fit in the same space as 1 of yours. I come back to you with a list of results from 64 smaller containers, instead of the 16 you asked for. The list is longer, and the total count is the same as it would be if I used your original containers, but have I created any *NOISE*?
Of course not, but many people believe so for capturing photons instead of raindrops!
The fact is, the smaller pixels give you more detail about where the raindrops (or photons) fell. That is not *NOISE*.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Lionel - 17 Mar 2007 01:02 GMT >>>I think you guys are talking past each other here. >>> [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >The fact is, the smaller pixels give you more detail about where the >raindrops (or photons) fell. That is not *NOISE*. If fill-factor wasn't an issue, your reasoning would be correct. However, the more photodiodes you put in a given area, the more of that area is used for the support structures (eg; the array selection & blanking transistors) that are needed *for every photodiode* to get the data out of them & over to the amplifiers. (Using your analogy, think of them as the hoses, pumps & taps that go to each of your buckets.) There is a minimum practical size those structures can be[0], so the more pixels you have in a given area, the more of it is being used for those support electronics, rather than for detecting photons.
[0] With the present state of the art in semiconductor fabrication. This will likely improve over time, but it's a slow process.
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John Sheehy - 17 Mar 2007 03:21 GMT
> If fill-factor wasn't an issue, your reasoning would be correct. > However, the more photodiodes you put in a given area, the more of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > being used for those support electronics, rather than for detecting > photons.
> [0] With the present state of the art in semiconductor fabrication. > This will likely improve over time, but it's a slow process. Yeah, this is what I believed, until I realized that the tiny-sensor ZLRs were capturing as many photons per square mm of sensor area as big-pixel DSLRs. Canon's on-site transistors are a two-edged sword; they help greatly with relatively low read noise at high ISOs, but they get in the way of minaturization. The 1.97u pixels from a Panasonic FZ50, filling a full 36x24mm frame, would have 223MP. Imagine a very sharp lens, like the 500mm f/4L on that.
Even if you lose some photons due to miniaturization, remember, the shot noise is only proportional to the square root of the signal. You gain a small amount of shot noise, and a whole lot of resolution.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Lionel - 17 Mar 2007 04:13 GMT >> If fill-factor wasn't an issue, your reasoning would be correct. >> However, the more photodiodes you put in a given area, the more of [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >were capturing as many photons per square mm of sensor area as big-pixel >DSLRs. Sure, but shot/thermal noise as a proportion of photon count increases dramatically with reductions in photodiode size, greatly lowering the signal to noise ratio. Paul Rubin did a nice job of explaining how this works in terms of the raindrop analogy. But the problem with the raindrops & buckets analogy is that it doesn't model the kind of noise you get with photodiodes, nor does it accurately model the scaling issues.
>Even if you lose some photons due to miniaturization, remember, the shot >noise is only proportional to the square root of the signal. IIRC, it's proportional to the temperature of the sensor, & the bias across the photodiode, which is not the same thing. When we start discussing things in this sort of detail, hand-waving & analogies stop being useful, & we need to refer to the underlying physics & the characteristics of real photodiodes. There's a very good reference available from one manufacturer of photodiodes at: <http://sales.hamamatsu.com/assets/applications/SSD/photodiode_technical_informat ion.pdf> You'll find the noise characteristics in section 2-4. Do bear in mind that they're referring to photodiodes about a thousand times larger than a typical DSLR photodiode, so the contribution of a single photon on the total signal is very small, unlike the signal from an image sensor photodiode, where single photons make a significant contribution to the total signal.
I think that where you're going wrong is that you're forgetting that with the really tiny signals we're discussing, popular, macro-level analogies for light & electricity stop making sense, & we have to look at the quantum characteristics of photons & electrons. See, you can't measure half a photon, or a third of an electron. Like a brick, you either see it or you don't. if you replace the raindrops in your analogy with bricks, & imagine that it's raining bricks (in proportion to the temperature!) at the same time, then the problem with trying to count the bricks (photons/electrons) in smaller buckets (photodiodes) is a /lot/ clearer. ;^)
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acl - 17 Mar 2007 05:03 GMT > >Even if you lose some photons due to miniaturization, remember, the shot > >noise is only proportional to the square root of the signal. > > IIRC, it's proportional to the temperature of the sensor, & the bias > across the photodiode, which is not the same thing. When we start Shot noise in this thread refers to fluctuations in the number of detected photons due to the random intervals between their arrival (hence poissonian); it has absolutely nothing to do with temperature etc. There are other noise sources that do.
> discussing things in this sort of detail, hand-waving & analogies stop > being useful, & we need to refer to the underlying physics & the > characteristics of real photodiodes. These aren't hand-waving analogies, it's the real thing. The only quantum aspect of the photons relevant to shot noise here is that they're discrete particles.
> There's a very good reference > available from one manufacturer of photodiodes at: > <http://sales.hamamatsu.com/assets/applications/SSD/photodiode_technic...> > You'll find the noise characteristics in section 2-4. Do bear in mind This is about read noise and similar noise sources (the ones that will be a problem in this scenario, indeed).
> I think that where you're going wrong is that you're forgetting that > with the really tiny signals we're discussing, popular, macro-level [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > count the bricks (photons/electrons) in smaller buckets (photodiodes) > is a /lot/ clearer. ;^) That is exactly why what he says works. The problem is a) a fixed error per bucket, so they add up (or their squares do), b) nxn smaller buckets don't cover the same area as a larger bucket of area n^2 (fill factor<1). This is sort of what you're saying, but it does not contradict what he is saying.
Lionel - 17 Mar 2007 05:28 GMT >> >Even if you lose some photons due to miniaturization, remember, the shot >> >noise is only proportional to the square root of the signal. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >(hence poissonian); it has absolutely nothing to do with temperature >etc. There are other noise sources that do. True, I've been conflating shot noise & thermal noise, which is incorrect of me, & a result of me pushing the boundries of my electroics knowledge. However, both noise sources are present, & must be taken into consideration when we're discussing real sensors.
>> discussing things in this sort of detail, hand-waving & analogies stop >> being useful, & we need to refer to the underlying physics & the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >quantum aspect of the photons relevant to shot noise here is that >they're discrete particles. Yes, exactly. What do you think 'quantum' means?
>> There's a very good reference >> available from one manufacturer of photodiodes at: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >This is about read noise and similar noise sources (the ones that will >be a problem in this scenario, indeed). ...and thermal noise, & shot noise. Read the whole section.
>> I think that where you're going wrong is that you're forgetting that >> with the really tiny signals we're discussing, popular, macro-level [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >factor<1). This is sort of what you're saying, but it does not >contradict what he is saying. Well, the point is that when you're talking about real image sensors where, (when all other characteristics are the same), the S:N ratio for an image from a 4MP sensor will be different to that of an 8MP sensor, even if you bin them both down to the same output resolution.
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acl - 17 Mar 2007 05:37 GMT > >> >Even if you lose some photons due to miniaturization, remember, the shot > >> >noise is only proportional to the square root of the signal. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > electroics knowledge. However, both noise sources are present, & must > be taken into consideration when we're discussing real sensors. They are taken into consideration!
> >> discussing things in this sort of detail, hand-waving & analogies stop > >> being useful, & we need to refer to the underlying physics & the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Yes, exactly. What do you think 'quantum' means? It means a lot more, but this is not the place to go on about it, and anyway it's irrelevant for what we're discussing.
> >> There's a very good reference > >> available from one manufacturer of photodiodes at: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > ...and thermal noise, & shot noise. Read the whole section. I did. Look, what I am saying is that the shot noise will be exactly the same if you bin as when you used a bigger pixel (except for the effects of the fill factor, which you have already mentioned), while the read noise will increase in comparison to the small pixels. So it will be necessary to have lower constant noise sources (constant=independent of the signal level). In fact, if we must bin nxn pixels to get the same pixel size, we need n times less constant noise sources to get the same s/n ratio. I don't think anybody said otherwise.
> Well, the point is that when you're talking about real image sensors > where, (when all other characteristics are the same), the S:N ratio > for an image from a 4MP sensor will be different to that of an 8MP > sensor, even if you bin them both down to the same output resolution. Look I think we're talking at cross purposes, we're saying the same things but reach opposite conclusions. Better to let it rest, we're just going to both end up with carpal tunnel syndrome and still disagree!
acl - 17 Mar 2007 05:41 GMT > (constant=independent of the signal level). In fact, if we must bin > nxn pixels to get the same pixel size, we need n times less constant > noise sources to get the same s/n ratio. Argh, what did I write? I meant that the total constant noise in the binned pixel will be n times that of the smaller ones.
See? Attrition is already setting in :)
Paul Rubin - 17 Mar 2007 03:11 GMT > Your assistant is me, and I decide to replace the 16 containers with 64 > square containers, 4 of which fit in the same space as 1 of yours. I come > back to you with a list of results from 64 smaller containers, instead of > the 16 you asked for. The list is longer, and the total count is the > same as it would be if I used your original containers, but have I > created any *NOISE*? Well, how to you measure how many raindrops fell in each container? Let's say exactly 100 raindrops fell in each of the original 16 containers. Your counting method is accurate to within +/- 5 raindrops, so you get counts from 95 to 105 inclusive, not too bad for this type of measurement; each count is within a 5% error band.
Now you use the 64 smaller containers, and your counting method is still accurate to +/- 5 raindrops. But now you only have 25 raindrops per container on average, so now your +/- 5 raindrop error is a 20% band. And the total count for each 4 raindrop cluster can be anywhere from 80 to 120 instead of 95 to 105.
In this case I would say you have added more noise by using smaller containers, since you haven't decreased the counting error per container. You've taken a +/- 5% accurate measurement and replaced it with a +/- 20% measurement.
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 17 Mar 2007 05:05 GMT >>Your assistant is me, and I decide to replace the 16 containers with 64 >>square containers, 4 of which fit in the same space as 1 of yours. I come [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > You've taken a +/- 5% accurate measurement and replaced it with a +/- 20% > measurement. Excellent analogy. I was going to write something similar. Thanks!
The other thing that is forgotten in this drive to smaller pixels is the boundary between pixels. There is a significant "wall" between the pixel wells to hold the electrons in place. The wall is finite, a fair fraction of a micron in size, and not sensitive to light. As more and more pixels are added, the walls take up more space and decrease the active area of the sensor. The effect of the need for this wall impacts the lower limit of a sensor, along with the physical size of a photon (upper end of visible range recorded by cameras: 0.7 to 0.8 micron). The two combined sets the lower size of a pixel at around 2 microns. And this is what is seen in Figures 1, 2, and 6 at: http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/digital.sensor.performance.summary Figure 6 shows the largest impact of small pixels.
Regardless of pixel size, the physics of lenses say that for a given light source and f/ratio, the photons per square micron delivered to the focal plane is a constant. This is why exposure times are the same whether one uses a 20 mm f/4 lens or a 1000 mm f/4 lens. For an 18% gray level, assuming 100% is sensor saturation, the photons converted by a sensor with 30% quantum efficiency is about 170 to 180 photo-electrons in the green passband per square micron. The signal-to-noise ratio is then only about 13 per square micron (rising with the square root of the area), and this is at the digital camera's lowest ISO. So the S/N ~ 13 applies to ISOs around 50 to 100. For ISO 1600, the photons per square micron are 6 to 11 photons, and S/N ~ 2 to 3 (assuming no noise besides photon counting statistics).
There is no hard limit to pixel size where images are crap, so signal-to-noise ratio is a subjective thing. But many people complain in this newsgroup about noise and low light performance of small pixel size cameras. So one must decide for themselves where they want to draw that line.
So which is better: a full frame sensor with 2-micron pixels, or a full frame sensor with 6-micron pixels? The 2-micron pixels gives about 216 megapixels and the 6-micron pixel sensor gives 24 megapixels. I would say that if you only did full sun or inanimate objects, I would choose the 216 megapixel sensor. If I wanted to do astro-photography or wildlife action photography, I would choose the 24 megapixel camera. We'll really be lucky is some day we have that choice.
Today, if I want to travel light (with photo gear) I take a 7-megapixel P&S camera realizing I'll not be doing wildlife action photography. If I want to do serious landscape work or wildlife action, I take my 1D Mark II with full compliment of lenses and tripods, Wimberly head and pano head.
Roger
acl - 17 Mar 2007 05:51 GMT On Mar 17, 7:05 am, "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <usern...@qwest.net> wrote:
> >>Your assistant is me, and I decide to replace the 16 containers with 64 > >>square containers, 4 of which fit in the same space as 1 of yours. I come [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Excellent analogy. I was going to write something similar. > Thanks! The analogy might be good, but the reasoning and conclusion is not. He takes errors of +/- 5 per container and concludes that the total error in the binned case is 4*that, ie he adds the noises instead of adding the squares and taking the square root. In reality, the "read" noise will be doubled, not quadrupled, so long as the noise sources are uncorrelated. Still, of course, the s/n ratio decreases.
Lionel - 17 Mar 2007 06:19 GMT >On Mar 17, 7:05 am, "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" ><usern...@qwest.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >will be doubled, not quadrupled, so long as the noise sources are >uncorrelated. Still, of course, the s/n ratio decreases. And that's before considering the fill factor, which has a big impact on the final S:N ratio when you're talking about these sorts of tiny pixel sizes, where they're starting to be not much larger than the minimum size of the per-pixel support infrastructure.
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John Sheehy - 17 Mar 2007 05:24 GMT >> Your assistant is me, and I decide to replace the 16 containers with >> 64 square containers, 4 of which fit in the same space as 1 of yours. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Well, how to you measure how many raindrops fell in each container? This is just a thought experiment, not a real-world problem. Change it to marbles, and actually count them. Happy? The thought experiment is about shot noise. Read noise is another issue, but reality works in the favor of small pixels there, really.
> Let's say exactly 100 raindrops fell in each of the original 16 > containers. Your counting method is accurate to within +/- 5 > raindrops, so you get counts from 95 to 105 inclusive, not too bad for > this type of measurement; each count is within a 5% error band. You do understand that this is analogous to read noise, not shot noise, right? There really is no counting error in shot noise. Shot noise is not really noise; it is an accurate count of the *REAL* nature of light. We just don't like it in our images, because unlike the shot "noise" in our retinas, our perceptual system doesn't buffer it from us in our experience of media. Our brains only do noise reduction on what it thinks is direct experience of light.
> Now you use the 64 smaller containers, and your counting method is > still accurate to +/- 5 raindrops. That's not a very likely scenario. Error is likely to be proportional to amount, at least in part, not a fixed number. But keep going...
> But now you only have 25 raindrops > per container on average, so now your +/- 5 raindrop error is a 20% > band. And the total count for each 4 raindrop cluster can be anywhere > from 80 to 120 instead of 95 to 105.
> In this case I would say you have added more noise by using smaller > containers, since you haven't decreased the counting error per > container. Then I think you'd be wrong.
Real World: My FZ50 has a read noise of 2.7 electrons at ISO 100, with a full-well capacity of 4800 electrons. 9 of its pixels, binned together, will have a read noise of 8.1 electrons, and a full count of 43,200 photons, about the same as full-well capacity in my 20D, but the 20D has a read noise of about 26 electrons at ISO 100.
43200/8.1 = 5233.33. The 20D has a full-well capacity of about 44000 electrons. 44000/26 = 1692.31. The binned FZ50 pixels have over 3x the dynamic range of a 20D pixel at ISO 100 (where DR is the ratio of max signal to the level where 1:1 S/N lies); they cover about the same area, and collect about the same number of photons.
> You've taken a +/- 5% accurate measurement and replaced it > with a +/- 20% measurement. No. Noise or error doesn't add like that. Cases of 4 +5s and 4 -5s will be rare , even with a linear distribution, but in the majority of cases, there will be near-cancellation of + and - errors. The standard deviation would actually be lower, even with your unrealistically high error rate of 20% in the smaller containers, when binned down to the bigger virtual containers.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Lionel - 17 Mar 2007 06:14 GMT >>> Your assistant is me, and I decide to replace the 16 containers with >>> 64 square containers, 4 of which fit in the same space as 1 of yours. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >to marbles, and actually count them. Happy? The thought experiment is >about shot noise. To include shot noise, you'd need to throw another bucket full of marbles into the air above your array, so they'd land randomly in your sensor buckets.
> Read noise is another issue, but reality works in the >favor of small pixels there, really. No, it definitely doesn't. The smaller the photodiode, the harder it is to accurately read the signal from it. Try designing an photodiode amplifier sometime that needs to be able to accurately generate a measurable signal from single photons hitting a photodiode & you'll soon find out how much harder it is than amplifying the signal from a big photodiode being hit by millions of photons.
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John Sheehy - 17 Mar 2007 06:40 GMT > To include shot noise, you'd need to throw another bucket full of > marbles into the air above your array, so they'd land randomly in your > sensor buckets. Actually, my thought experiment actually had shot noise, until Paul declared that all the containers had the same number of drops (but that I just had problems counting them).
>> Read noise is another issue, but reality works in the >>favor of small pixels there, really.
> No, it definitely doesn't. The smaller the photodiode, the harder it > is to accurately read the signal from it. ... and the more pixels covering an area, the less important the accuracy of any one pixel is. You're another one missing the forest (image/subject) for the trees (pixels).
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Lionel - 17 Mar 2007 06:50 GMT >> To include shot noise, you'd need to throw another bucket full of >> marbles into the air above your array, so they'd land randomly in your [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >... and the more pixels covering an area, the less important the accuracy >of any one pixel is. Ah, but your larger photodiode+amp *can* still accurately detect individual photons that the photodiodes+amps in your sub-array of the same size /won't/ be able to accurately detect. That's exactly my point.
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John Sheehy - 17 Mar 2007 16:49 GMT >>... and the more pixels covering an area, the less important the >>accuracy of any one pixel is.
> Ah, but your larger photodiode+amp *can* still accurately detect > individual photons that the photodiodes+amps in your sub-array of the > same size /won't/ be able to accurately detect. That's exactly my > point. Huh? That doesn't make any sense.
In order for what you say to be true, the smaller pixels would have to have a read noise at least 4x as high as that in pixels 4x as large. 4 pixels into one means 4x the signal, and 2x the noise, for an increase in S/N of 2x.
In all these arguments against what I'm saying, I see people fabricating high read noises for small pixels that don't happen in real life. I'm supposed to believe the boogey-man stories of the hand-wavers who accuse me of hand-waving, and none have actually taken the trouble to see what happens in the real world with available products.
Take any blackframe; load into a program that bins, check the standard deviation before and after. For an NxN bin, signal increases by a factor of N^2, and noise increases by N, for an increase in S/N of N times. That would require N times as much noise in the smaller pixel to equal the larger, after binning, and more than N times to make it worse.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 17 Mar 2007 06:20 GMT >>>Your assistant is me, and I decide to replace the 16 containers with >>>64 square containers, 4 of which fit in the same space as 1 of yours. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > about shot noise. Read noise is another issue, but reality works in the > favor of small pixels there, really. In any digital counting, e.g. an A/D converter is always +/- 1 count. If your count is 25 photons, it is 25+/- 1 plus the photons noise plus the read noise. Counting small numbers plus read noise means smaller pixels can NEVER do as well as large pixel when you sum small pixels to equal the large pixels.
And we haven't even begun to discuss diffraction effects at the edges of the pixels and microlenses. That makes the situation worse still.
Roger
> You do understand that this is analogous to read noise, not shot noise, > right? There really is no counting error in shot noise. Shot noise is [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > That's not a very likely scenario. Error is likely to be proportional to > amount, at least in part, not a fixed number. But keep going... No, digital counting is always +/- 1 count.
> Real World: My FZ50 has a read noise of 2.7 electrons at ISO 100, with a > full-well capacity of 4800 electrons. 9 of its pixels, binned together, > will have a read noise of 8.1 electrons, and a full count of 43,200 > photons, about the same as full-well capacity in my 20D, but the 20D has > a read noise of about 26 electrons at ISO 100. Where do you get these numbers? The read noise of 2.7 electrons is lower than any other tested point and shoot or DSLR. Pretty impressive if true. Remember that in a typical exposure, 4800 electrons is saturation and an 18% gray card gets only about 864 electrons, with a S/N ~ 29. The full well of 4800 at ISO 100 also pretty impressive considering the full well is higher at lower ISO (minimum iso = 80 => full well ~6000). Do you have a reference?
> 43200/8.1 = 5233.33. The 20D has a full-well capacity of about 44000 > electrons. 44000/26 = 1692.31. The binned FZ50 pixels have over 3x the > dynamic range of a 20D pixel at ISO 100 (where DR is the ratio of max > signal to the level where 1:1 S/N lies); they cover about the same area, > and collect about the same number of photons. Show images that demonstrates this. Note too that cameras like the 20D at low ISO are limited by the A/D and its electronics, not true sensor read noise. Now that 14-bit DSLRs are coming out, we'll see the gap widening.
Then try the same thing at ISO 200, then 400, then 800. You'll see the large pixel camera pull away quickly in image quality.
Roger
Doug McDonald - 17 Mar 2007 17:24 GMT r
> area, which is much more relevant. Noise per pixel is just a myopic, > "missing-the-forest-for-the-trees" academic curiosity with no direct [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Of course not, but many people believe so for capturing photons instead > of raindrops! That last sentence is WRONG. That said, it is wrong only because of read noise, which is of the order of 3 to 5 electrons. If the actual signal is bigger than say 100 photoelectrons the read noise becomes negligible. Nevertheless, at the very lowest signal levels, your argument is wrong in the real quantized world.
Doug McDonald
Lionel - 17 Mar 2007 17:29 GMT >r >> area, which is much more relevant. Noise per pixel is just a myopic, [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >noise becomes negligible. Nevertheless, at the very lowest signal levels, >your argument is wrong in the real quantized world. Exactly. And he's also neglecting to account for (in his analogy), the drops that hit the lips of the smaller containers, & are lost, (equivalent to the extra fill-factor loss), & the fact that the smaller containers will fill & overflow more easily at points with heavy exposure (which is equivalent to lowered well capacity in the smaller photodiodes, thus a reduced maximum photon capacity).
 Signature W "Some people are alive only because it is illegal to kill them." . | ,. w , \|/ \|/ Perna condita delenda est ---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------
John Sheehy - 17 Mar 2007 22:40 GMT > Exactly. And he's also neglecting to account for (in his analogy), the > drops that hit the lips of the smaller containers, & are lost, Apparently, not many photons are lost with the 1.97u pixel pitch in my FZ50. It captures almost exactly the same amount of photons per square mm at ISO 100 saturation as the 1DmkII! Even photons that get close to the edge may still go into a well, whether it is the next one over is irrelevant, as the resolution is still more precise than if you had large pixels, where any collected photon could have been in any of a number of pixel wells on a finer-pixel-pitch sensor.
You're talking boogey-men. Talk facts, from real world stuff, please. No cultish hand-waving.
> (equivalent to the extra fill-factor loss), & the fact that the > smaller containers will fill & overflow more easily at points with > heavy exposure (which is equivalent to lowered well capacity in the > smaller photodiodes, thus a reduced maximum photon capacity). You're getting very funny now. Go back and look at what you just wrote; you just complained about resolution!
What if there was a pattern of extra drops in every second row of small containers? How would you see that with the larger containers?
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Lionel - 18 Mar 2007 03:10 GMT >> Exactly. And he's also neglecting to account for (in his analogy), the >> drops that hit the lips of the smaller containers, & are lost, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >at ISO 100 saturation as the 1DmkII! Even photons that get close to the >edge may still go into a well, No, that's not how photodiodes work. Those photons are lost.
> whether it is the next one over is >irrelevant, as the resolution is still more precise than if you had large [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >You're talking boogey-men. Talk facts, from real world stuff, please. No >cultish hand-waving. And you're calling names, not supplying facts.
>> (equivalent to the extra fill-factor loss), & the fact that the >> smaller containers will fill & overflow more easily at points with [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >You're getting very funny now. Go back and look at what you just wrote; >you just complained about resolution! I did? Where?
>What if there was a pattern of extra drops in every second row of small >containers? How would you see that with the larger containers? How would you see it if you're binning all these drops? - You /are/ still talking about binning all these samples, aren't you?
 Signature W "Some people are alive only because it is illegal to kill them." . | ,. w , \|/ \|/ Perna condita delenda est ---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------
John Sheehy - 18 Mar 2007 04:39 GMT
>>> Exactly. And he's also neglecting to account for (in his analogy), >>> the drops that hit the lips of the smaller containers, & are lost,
>>Apparently, not many photons are lost with the 1.97u pixel pitch in my >>FZ50. It captures almost exactly the same amount of photons per >>square mm at ISO 100 saturation as the 1DmkII! Even photons that get >>close to the edge may still go into a well,
> No, that's not how photodiodes work. Those photons are lost. Which ones are lost? You made a very vague reference to drops on the edge; I can only guess the scenario in which they occur. I don't know how thick the walls are in your mind, etc. I get the feeling that you meant imply "in the worst and most impractical manner possible". The fact is, current tiny-sensor pixels are not losing many photons the way they would in your horror story.
>> whether it is the next one over is >>irrelevant, as the resolution is still more precise than if you had >>large pixels, where any collected photon could have been in any of a >>number of pixel wells on a finer-pixel-pitch sensor.
>>You're talking boogey-men. Talk facts, from real world stuff, please. >> No cultish hand-waving.
> And you're calling names, not supplying facts. I hope I didn't offend any boogey-men, but then again, they *want* to scare you.
I am supplying facts about various cameras and how much noise they have, and how they bin. You're just making up worst-case scenarios.
>>> (equivalent to the extra fill-factor loss), & the fact that the >>> smaller containers will fill & overflow more easily at points with [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I did? Where? You complained about a small container filling up, while its neighbors didn't.
>>What if there was a pattern of extra drops in every second row of >>small containers? How would you see that with the larger containers?
> How would you see it if you're binning all these drops? - You /are/ > still talking about binning all these samples, aren't you? Binning is optional. It's saves space on memory cards, and speeds up their writes.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Lionel - 18 Mar 2007 05:10 GMT >>>> Exactly. And he's also neglecting to account for (in his analogy), >>>> the drops that hit the lips of the smaller containers, & are lost, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Which ones are lost? The ones that land anywhere other than the sensitive area of the photodiode, obviously. That includes the areas between the photodiodes, & the edges of the photodiodes themselves.
> You made a very vague reference to drops on the >edge; I can only guess the scenario in which they occur. I don't know >how thick the walls are in your mind, etc. My mind has nothing to do with it. We're talking about real, physical devices that have edges, & cannot even be packed edge to edge anyway. (Well, not if you want to be able to read them, at least.)
> I get the feeling that you >meant imply "in the worst and most impractical manner possible". The >fact is, current tiny-sensor pixels are not losing many photons the way >they would in your horror story. They don't need to lose 'many' photons to prove my point, just some percentage, because the point is that those same photons /won't/ be lost with a larger photodiode.
>>> whether it is the next one over is >>>irrelevant, as the resolution is still more precise than if you had [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >I hope I didn't offend any boogey-men, but then again, they *want* to >scare you. <rolls eyes>
>I am supplying facts about various cameras and how much noise they have, >and how they bin. You're just making up worst-case scenarios. No, I'm talking about real-world electronic engineering & physics. You're just hand waving about stuff that you clearly don't understand. You don't get to just make sh.t up & expect the rest of us to take your word for it.
>>>> (equivalent to the extra fill-factor loss), & the fact that the >>>> smaller containers will fill & overflow more easily at points with [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >You complained about a small container filling up, while its neighbors >didn't. If the bright image covers its neighbours as well, they'll obviously fill up too. What's your point?
>>>What if there was a pattern of extra drops in every second row of >>>small containers? How would you see that with the larger containers? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Binning is optional. In that case, you don't get to claim the noise reduction benefit of binning that you've been claiming throughout this thread. You can either claim the resolution benefit of havng more photodiodes in a given area (in which case you lose SNR & DR), or you can claim the noise benefit of binning those smaller photodiodes, (in which you lose well-capacity/DR/maximum-count + resolution), but you can't claim both benefits at the same time!
> It's saves space on memory cards, and speeds up >their writes. Um, yeah, whatever.
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Paul Furman - 18 Mar 2007 05:25 GMT > Lionel <usenet@imagenoir.com> wrote >>>Lionel <usenet@imagenoir.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > Binning is optional. It's saves space on memory cards, and speeds up > their writes. I really don't get this binning. Does anybody do that (half the megapixels) because they can't afford memory cards?
Lionel - 18 Mar 2007 05:30 GMT >> Lionel <usenet@imagenoir.com> wrote [...]
>>>How would you see it if you're binning all these drops? - You /are/ >>>still talking about binning all these samples, aren't you? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I really don't get this binning. Does anybody do that (half the >megapixels) because they can't afford memory cards? Not that I know of. But all the Canons already offer this amazing 'binning' feature anyway - that's what you get when you set your camera to JPEG mode, & use a JPEG size smaller than full resolution. ;^)
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John Sheehy - 18 Mar 2007 06:33 GMT > Not that I know of. But all the Canons already offer this amazing > 'binning' feature anyway - that's what you get when you set your > camera to JPEG mode, & use a JPEG size smaller than full resolution. > ;^) Well, downsampling and binning are a bit different. A downsampling should use a filter to remove frequencies that complicate and artifact the output. Binning is just a box effect, with the contents literally added together.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< David J. Littleboy - 19 Mar 2007 00:35 GMT >> Not that I know of. But all the Canons already offer this amazing >> 'binning' feature anyway - that's what you get when you set your [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > output. > Binning is just a box effect, with the contents literally added together. Binning will result in gross aliasing effects, which are very nasty with a Bayer sensor. So it's probably not useful in real life.
Noise reduction (via a Gaussian blur) followed by downsampling wouldn't have that problem.
David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan
acl - 19 Mar 2007 01:44 GMT > >> Not that I know of. But all the Canons already offer this amazing > >> 'binning' feature anyway - that's what you get when you set your [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Noise reduction (via a Gaussian blur) followed by downsampling wouldn't have > that problem. If I take 4x4 blocks and replace all 4 spins by the average of the original 4 spins (but do not coarse grain them into 1 pixel, but instead leave them as 4 separate but identical pixels), is this a blurring operation or not? If I next take these 4 (now identical) pixels and create one with the same value, is the combined operation what is meant by binning or not?
Compare the above to "nearest neighbour" interpolation, which is to take one of the 4 pixels and discard the others (thus no blurring before downsampling, if you prefer this way of looking at it)
acl - 19 Mar 2007 01:45 GMT On Mar 19, 3:44 am, some idiot wrote:
> If I take 4x4 blocks and replace all 4 spins by the average of the pixels damnit, pixels! sorry
David J. Littleboy - 19 Mar 2007 01:59 GMT >> > Well, downsampling and binning are a bit different. A downsampling >> > should [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > pixels and create one with the same value, is the combined operation > what is meant by binning or not? Yes. Binning (presumably) averages four (or some other number) of pixels with no information from any other pixels. This doesn't work very well as a low-pass filter, and allows aliasing artifacts to occur.
Applying a (well-designed) blur at every pixel at the higher resolution and then downampling will produce an image with much lower levels of aliasing artifacts.
> Compare the above to "nearest neighbour" interpolation, which is to > take one of the 4 pixels and discard the others (thus no blurring > before downsampling, if you prefer this way of looking at it) That's decimation. And is, of course, even worse than averaging, since it approximates point sampling.
David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan
acl - 19 Mar 2007 02:17 GMT > >> > Well, downsampling and binning are a bit different. A downsampling > >> > should [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > with no information from any other pixels. This doesn't work very well as a > low-pass filter, and allows aliasing artifacts to occur. Yes, at the cost of lowering resolution. No free lunch! While more pixels allow a weaker AA filter, downsampling to improve S/N would force us to blur them (using software) to a similar extend as the AA filter would for larger pixels. Good point.
> Applying a (well-designed) blur at every pixel at the higher resolution and > then downampling will produce an image with much lower levels of aliasing [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > That's decimation. And is, of course, even worse than averaging, since it > approximates point sampling. That was the point. I didn't know the terminology was used in signal processing, if that's where you know it from (I know it from elsewhere). I am painfully aware of what it can do to you (much worse than false high-frequency detail, it can completely mislead and give an explicitly wrong answer in some situations).
John Sheehy - 19 Mar 2007 02:10 GMT > If I take 4x4 blocks and replace all 4 spins by the average of the > original 4 spins (but do not coarse grain them into 1 pixel, but > instead leave them as 4 separate but identical pixels), Sounds like PS' "Pixelate|Mosaic".
> is this a > blurring operation or not? If I next take these 4 (now identical) > pixels and create one with the same value, is the combined operation > what is meant by binning or not? That's sort of like binning, but by averaging instead of adding, you are working with less precision. Pure binning does not lose anything to rounding errors. IOW, If you bin 40, 40, 40, and 41, you get 161, which is equivalent to 40.25 in the original scale, but it would be either 40 or 41 in your method, which is less accurate.
> Compare the above to "nearest neighbour" interpolation, which is to > take one of the 4 pixels and discard the others (thus no blurring > before downsampling, if you prefer this way of looking at it) Nearest neighbor increases noise at the pixel level with an RGB image, because the low-frequency noise becomes high-frequency. The Nearest neighbor output is full of strong noise at the nyquist, compared to a downsampled or binned output.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< acl - 19 Mar 2007 02:28 GMT > > If I take 4x4 blocks and replace all 4 spins by the average of the > > original 4 spins (but do not coarse grain them into 1 pixel, but [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > equivalent to 40.25 in the original scale, but it would be either 40 or 41 > in your method, which is less accurate. it was a thought experiment; my thoughts are infinitely precise :). so multiplying my result by 4 would give the same as if i did not average
> > Compare the above to "nearest neighbour" interpolation, which is to > > take one of the 4 pixels and discard the others (thus no blurring [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > neighbor output is full of strong noise at the nyquist, compared to a > downsampled or binned output. there are also other reasons, not just that the noise is moved up in frequency space
acl - 19 Mar 2007 02:30 GMT > > > If I take 4x4 blocks and replace all 4 spins by the average of the > > > original 4 spins (but do not coarse grain them into 1 pixel, but [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > there are also other reasons, not just that the noise is moved up in down not up
Lionel - 19 Mar 2007 02:41 GMT >> If I take 4x4 blocks and replace all 4 spins by the average of the >> original 4 spins (but do not coarse grain them into 1 pixel, but [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >That's sort of like binning, but by averaging instead of adding, Averaging is just binning with the result scaled by the number of samples to normalise the output amplitude.
 Signature W "Some people are alive only because it is illegal to kill them." . | ,. w , \|/ \|/ Perna condita delenda est ---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------
Lionel - 19 Mar 2007 02:44 GMT >>> If I take 4x4 blocks and replace all 4 spins by the average of the >>> original 4 spins (but do not coarse grain them into 1 pixel, but [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Averaging is just binning with the result scaled by the number of >samples to normalise the output amplitude. Oops. The above is obviously wrong, please ignore it. (I was confusing different algorithms.)
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John Sheehy - 19 Mar 2007 02:00 GMT >>> Not that I know of. But all the Canons already offer this amazing >>> 'binning' feature anyway - that's what you get when you set your [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Binning will result in gross aliasing effects, which are very nasty > with a Bayer sensor. So it's probably not useful in real life. That's true with large binnings. For 2x2 ones, from cameras with AA filters, you're actually not going to see much aliasing.
There are so many ways to bin, though. If you want to bin big, you have the option of including overlapping pixels in multiple output pixels.
> Noise reduction (via a Gaussian blur) followed by downsampling > wouldn't have that problem. Downsampling often reduces the noise statistic better than binning, but the (traditionally) binned image is already sharper to begin with.
Median filtering is better than gaussian blur, IME. (unless you just do blur on 'a' and 'b' in Lab mode for chromatic noise). I made my own CFA- aware median filter in Filtermeister that is based on ratio instead of difference from neighbors. Good for hot pixels, and warm and cool ones and dead ones, as well.
PS' "dust and scratches" can actually work well, too, before downsampling.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Scott W - 19 Mar 2007 02:03 GMT > Binning will result in gross aliasing effects, which are very nasty with a > Bayer sensor. So it's probably not useful in real life. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > David J. Littleboy > Tokyo, Japan Whereas binning will lead to some artifacts it is not much worse then bicubic. It is pretty simple to do a quick test in Photoshop to see how binning will affect the image, use a custom filter with the 5x5 matrix fill in with 1s and the scale set to 25. Then down sample to 20% using nearest neighbor sampling. Make sure the original image is size by a factor of 5 in both height and width otherwise you won't get true binning.
This is a test I did, here is the original image. http://www.pbase.com/konascott/image/75855908/original
This is the image that you get binning 5 x 5 pixels, so the new image is 20% the size of the original. http://www.pbase.com/konascott/image/75855919/original Note there are some artifacts in the steeple of the church.
This is a down sampling using bicubic http://www.pbase.com/konascott/image/75855954/original The artifacts look about the same here as in the one that used binning.
This time I have used gaussian blur followed by down sampling to 20%, using nearest neighbor. http://www.pbase.com/konascott/image/75856012/original Here we are pretty much free of the artifacts.
Now if you want something really bad just down sample using nearest neighbor with no filtering before hand. http://www.pbase.com/konascott/image/75856104/original
No the one disclaimer is that this was not done with the raw value from the bayer sensor but rather a filer that had already been converter to RGB.
Scott
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 19 Mar 2007 04:05 GMT Hey Scott, Where is your test with the picket fence? As I recall, all attempts to downsample without artifacts pretty much failed. Quite interesting.
Roger
Scott W - 19 Mar 2007 06:46 GMT On Mar 18, 5:05 pm, "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <usern...@qwest.net> wrote:
> Hey Scott, > Where is your test with the picket fence? As I recall, > all attempts to downsample without artifacts pretty much failed. > Quite interesting. > > Roger Here is the test image. http://www.pbase.com/konascott/image/69543104/original
What looks like a fence is a test pattern then is just past Nyquist when down sampled to 25%. What I find that that mostly we try to avoid frequencies that are twice the Nyquist limit as these are the ones that make strong moiré patterns. Frequencies that are just past Nyquist create much more subtle artifacts and in a normal photo are not all that visible, the test pattern however does show the artifacts pretty strongly and any of the down sample methods that people put forth.
In an perfect world we would not have any information past Nyquist but given that we are often left with a limited number of sample, like what a computer screen can display, we are force to push things a bit if we want the photo to look at all sharp.
Now if I could have a 20 inch monitor with something like 3000x2000 pixels life would be a lot easier.
Scott
acl - 19 Mar 2007 13:45 GMT > In an perfect world we would not have any information past Nyquist but > given that we are often left with a limited number of sample, like > what a computer screen can display, we are force to push things a bit > if we want the photo to look at all sharp. But it's not so simple. Imagine using a square cutoff (a step) in frequency space to remove all frequencies above Nyquist. We'd get ringing artifacts even though they are not actually caused by the downsampling itself (but by the low-pass filter). We need a smooth rolloff. In fact, the product of the extend of the rolloff in frequency space and the extend of the artifacts in real space should be a constant, I think, so it's a tradeoff. Of course it depends on the constant, if it's 10^-10 who cares. I don't know what it is.
Also, if simply removing all such frequencies (above half the sampling) in any way was sufficient to avoid artifacts, binning 2x2 (ie just addding the 4 pixels together) would result in zero artifacts. I think the point is to avoid creating artifacts by the process of removing the high frequencies itself.
David J. Littleboy - 20 Mar 2007 01:49 GMT "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" wrote:
> Where is your test with the picket fence? As I recall, > all attempts to downsample without artifacts pretty much failed. Here is the test image. http://www.pbase.com/konascott/image/69543104/original <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
How's this for a first shot?
http://www.pbase.com/davidjl/image/75917810/original
David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan
Doug McDonald - 17 Mar 2007 18:05 GMT >> Your assistant is me, and I decide to replace the 16 containers with >> 64 square containers, 4 of which fit in the same space as 1 of yours. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > noise becomes negligible. Nevertheless, at the very lowest signal levels, > your argument is wrong in the real quantized world. I should add that in the limit of really small pixels, I suppose that a designer could get the read noise well below 1 electron. When that happens, you really DO reach the limit where smaller pixels are better (except for fill factor arguments and the associated factor of microlenses.) It IS possible to get semiconductor read noise below one electron, it just hard to do very fast. With read noise well below one electron, and enough analog gain, amplifier noise at low signals (streaks) can be processed way.
Doug McDonald
John Sheehy - 17 Mar 2007 22:47 GMT > I should add that in the limit of really small pixels, I suppose that > a designer could get the read noise well below 1 electron. When that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > electron, and enough analog gain, amplifier noise at low signals > (streaks) can be processed way. Popular belief varies greatly from forum to forum. There are a good number of people who are on top of the technological issues in the Open Talk and News Discussion forums on DPReview, even people who actually design digital cameras, and there is more of a belief there that the future lies in true digital imaging; gigapixel digital sensors, measuring as little as one photon per pixel, with one bit of depth. IIRC, there are already prototypes of some of this technology.
No color aliasing. No downsampling artifacts. No need for AA filters, or teleconverters (except for the optical viewfinders). Just highly detailed photon capture.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< acl - 17 Mar 2007 23:15 GMT > > I should add that in the limit of really small pixels, I suppose that > > a designer could get the read noise well below 1 electron. When that [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > teleconverters (except for the optical viewfinders). Just highly detailed > photon capture. Exactly, but you cannot see this if you're stuck at thinking in terms of today's electronics (as most people here are). Knowledge inertia.
John Sheehy - 17 Mar 2007 22:28 GMT >> Of course not, but many people believe so for capturing photons >> instead of raindrops!
> That last sentence is WRONG. That said, it is wrong only because > of read noise, which is of the order of 3 to 5 electrons. This was a thought experiment, to isolate the shot noise issue. People are always saying that smaller pixels means more shot noise. That is what this was about. Read noise is another subject, but the fact is, read noise in the real world decreases with smaller pixels, either in binning, downsampling, or considering noise power as a function of magnification.
Read noise is 2.7 electrons in my FZ50 at ISO 100. 9 of those pixels binned together equal a typical DSLR pixel both in coverage area, and maximum photon count. 2.7 * 9^0.5 = 8.1 electrons of read noise for the "superpixel". That's about 1/3 of the ISO 100 read noise on my 20D.
> If the > actual signal is bigger than say 100 photoelectrons the read > noise becomes negligible. Nevertheless, at the very lowest signal > levels, your argument is wrong in the real quantized world. What are you comparing it against? Let's say you have 9 tiny pixels with a signal of 5 electrons, and a read noise of 2.7 electrons. 9 of those, binned together, have a signal of 45 electrons, and a read noise of 8.1 electrons. With hardware binning like Dalsa uses, that might mean 2.7 electrons (or a tad more) even for the binned superpixel. A typical DSLR at ISO 100 will have a read noise of 18 to 30 electrons.
Large pixels are not doing well in current technology, in terms of read noise at low ISOs!
The real world does not match your boogey-man stories of read noise problems with small pixels.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Doug McDonald - 17 Mar 2007 23:43 GMT > What are you comparing it against? Let's say you have 9 tiny pixels with > a signal of 5 electrons, and a read noise of 2.7 electrons. 9 of those, > binned together, have a signal of 45 electrons, and a read noise of 8.1 > electrons. With hardware binning like Dalsa uses, that might mean 2.7 > electrons (or a tad more) even for the binned superpixel. Hardware binning, that is, adding the charge before the amplifiers, does indeed work fine, except you lose the resolution!
As I said in another post, all else (i.e. fill factor) being equal, smaller pixels do result in a smaller read noise due to smaller capacitance. The downside of course is lower dynamic range.
Doug McDonald
John Sheehy - 18 Mar 2007 00:41 GMT >> What are you comparing it against? Let's say you have 9 tiny pixels >> with a signal of 5 electrons, and a read noise of 2.7 electrons. 9 >> of those, binned together, have a signal of 45 electrons, and a read >> noise of 8.1 electrons. With hardware binning like Dalsa uses, that >> might mean 2.7 electrons (or a tad more) even for the binned >> superpixel.
> Hardware binning, that is, adding the charge before the amplifiers, > does indeed work fine, except you lose the resolution!
> As I said in another post, all else (i.e. fill factor) being > equal, smaller pixels do result in a smaller read noise due > to smaller capacitance. The downside of course is lower > dynamic range. Why? DR depends on noise. Less read noise means higher low-standard (1:1 SNR) DR, and the same number of photons means the same shot noise, and therefore the same high-standard (10:1 SNR) DR.
This all works with or without binning. Don't forget, light is really falling everywhere with extreme resolution, and extreme shot noise. Just looking at it that way doesn't make it any noisier than it is.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Lionel - 18 Mar 2007 03:16 GMT >>> What are you comparing it against? Let's say you have 9 tiny pixels >>> with a signal of 5 electrons, and a read noise of 2.7 electrons. 9 [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Why? DR depends on noise. DR depends on a number of factors, of which noise is only one. At the analog level, dynamic range is the difference between the smallest detectable signal & the largest measurable signal.
 Signature W "Some people are alive only because it is illegal to kill them." . | ,. w , \|/ \|/ Perna condita delenda est ---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------
John Sheehy - 18 Mar 2007 04:48 GMT > DR depends on a number of factors, of which noise is only one. At the > analog level, dynamic range is the difference between the smallest > detectable signal & the largest measurable signal. Which is in the same ratio with or without microlenses.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Lionel - 18 Mar 2007 04:53 GMT >> DR depends on a number of factors, of which noise is only one. At the >> analog level, dynamic range is the difference between the smallest >> detectable signal & the largest measurable signal. > >Which is in the same ratio with or without microlenses. Explain to me how a small photodiode under a microlens can possibly have a well size as large as that of a photodiode the size of the microlens itself.
 Signature W "Some people are alive only because it is illegal to kill them." . | ,. w , \|/ \|/ Perna condita delenda est ---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------
John Sheehy - 18 Mar 2007 05:11 GMT > Explain to me how a small photodiode under a microlens can possibly > have a well size as large as that of a photodiode the size of the > microlens itself. I can't explain that; I'm not sure it's possible. However, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that a microlens only affects how fast a well fills, not the ratio of max signal to lowest usable signal (DR).
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Lionel - 18 Mar 2007 05:26 GMT >> Explain to me how a small photodiode under a microlens can possibly >> have a well size as large as that of a photodiode the size of the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >whatsoever to do with the fact that a microlens only affects how fast a >well fills, not the ratio of max signal to lowest usable signal (DR). *sigh*
Suppose you have two photodiodes next to each other on the same piece of silicon. One can hold a maximum of 1000 photons. The second has only half the surface area of the first, & can therefore hold only 500 photons at most. The second photodiode, however, has a microlens in front of it, so it will collect photons from an area exactly the same size as the surface area of the first photodiode. Now, send a stream of photons at both photodiodes & measure the output signal from the diodes. Everything is equal from 0-500 photons/diode, but the smaller photodiode tops out at 500 photons, whie the larger photodiodes keeps on providing a useful signal right up to 1000 photons. Therefore, the larger photodiode has double the (linear) dynamic range of the smaller one.
 Signature W "Some people are alive only because it is illegal to kill them." . | ,. w , \|/ \|/ Perna condita delenda est ---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------
John Sheehy - 18 Mar 2007 06:21 GMT > Suppose you have two photodiodes next to each other on the same piece > of silicon. One can hold a maximum of 1000 photons. The second has [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > photons. Therefore, the larger photodiode has double the (linear) > dynamic range of the smaller one. I qualify my statements much more thoroughly than most of the population, and even I wouldn't consider it necessary to qualify for your hypothetical "mixed capacity" sensor. We were discussing whether or not "microlenses" affect DR. You had to come up with a scenario that adds another factor, and the discussion is not about microlenses anymore. You are going to comical lengths to try to find me wrong about something.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Lionel - 18 Mar 2007 08:13 GMT >> Suppose you have two photodiodes next to each other on the same piece >> of silicon. One can hold a maximum of 1000 photons. The second has [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >and even I wouldn't consider it necessary to qualify for your hypothetical >"mixed capacity" sensor. WTF are you jabbering about with that comment?
>We were discussing whether or not "microlenses" >affect DR. You had to come up with a scenario that adds another factor, What factor is that, John? The above argument is just as valid if you are talking about two different sensors, I'm simply making the point that the silicon process types, etc, are irrelevant to my point, which is simply that a small well has less dynamic range than a big well, which should be fairly obvious.
>and the discussion is not about microlenses anymore. Then what is it about, exactly?
> You are going to >comical lengths to try to find me wrong about something. I've already proved you wrong, the comical lengths seem to be what's required to make you see the flaws in your incorrect beliefs.
 Signature W "Some people are alive only because it is illegal to kill them." . | ,. w , \|/ \|/ Perna condita delenda est ---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------
John Sheehy - 18 Mar 2007 15:47 GMT >>> Suppose you have two photodiodes next to each other on the same >>> piece of silicon. One can hold a maximum of 1000 photons. The second [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > WTF are you jabbering about with that comment? I am "jabbering" about the fact that you went way out of the context of the conversation to create a scenario that involves microlenses and affects dynamic range. The assumed normal context is uniform microlenses, and all other things being equal. If you had something unusual in mind like mixed well depths and mixed microlenses, you should have said so. I never would have said that partial microlenses would not affect DR of the system.
>>We were discussing whether or not "microlenses" >>affect DR. You had to come up with a scenario that adds another >>factor,
> What factor is that, John? See above.
> The above argument is just as valid if you > are talking about two different sensors, I'm simply making the point > that the silicon process types, etc, are irrelevant to my point, which > is simply that a small well has less dynamic range than a big well, > which should be fairly obvious. That's only true if there is no read noise. Read noise can potentially limit the DR of a larger well more.
>>and the discussion is not about microlenses anymore.
> Then what is it about, exactly? It's about mixed microlenses and well capacities. You hinted *NOTHING* about this early on, and even after disagreement you did not even ask, "what about cases in which microlenses are different or missing on a fraction of the pixels?".
>> You are going to >>comical lengths to try to find me wrong about something.
> I've already proved you wrong, the comical lengths seem to be what's > required to make you see the flaws in your incorrect beliefs. You haven't proved me wrong, because you never said what it is that you had in mind until the end of a few rounds of disagreement. You are either clumsy in your argument, or intentionally deceptive.
I never would have said that selective use of microlenses on pixels would not affect DR, and I think that it is totally unreasonable to expect that to be the context when discussing whether or not microlenses affect DR, because they do not affect the DR of any pixel, and blanket microlens use is the norm.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Rita Ä Berkowitz - 18 Mar 2007 22:26 GMT > I am "jabbering" about the fact that you went way out of the context > of the conversation to create a scenario that involves microlenses and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > should have said so. I never would have said that partial > microlenses would not affect DR of the system. The reality of all of this is if you were to use the world famous and legendary 58mm f/1.2 Noct Nikkor none of this would even be a concern. A great lens eliminates all of these problems, real or imagined.
Rita
John Sheehy - 18 Mar 2007 23:44 GMT >> I am "jabbering" about the fact that you went way out of the context >> of the conversation to create a scenario that involves microlenses [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > legendary 58mm f/1.2 Noct Nikkor none of this would even be a concern. > A great lens eliminates all of these problems, real or imagined. Which problems? There are multiple layers going on here.
I'll assume you mean the long-lost topic of the the OP; low light (sorry, I should have started a new thread).
Even with fast lenses, you hit limits, too. And do you really want to use such a lens wide open? Focusing is difficult in low light, and the DOF at f/1.2 is not very forgiving. Many fast lenses are optically compromised wide open, too, even when focused, and tend to have lots of luminance roll- off in the corners. I generally don't let my f/1.4 lenses shoot below f/2.0. The lens you suggest, of course, may only have the DOF issue.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 18 Mar 2007 00:00 GMT >>> Of course not, but many people believe so for capturing photons >>> instead of raindrops! [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > maximum photon count. 2.7 * 9^0.5 = 8.1 electrons of read noise for the > "superpixel". That's about 1/3 of the ISO 100 read noise on my 20D. Your number for the 20D is incorrect. What you refer to as read noise is not true sensor read noise, but the limitation of a 12-bit A/D converter. The 20D has a full signal well depth of 51,000 electrons. So: 51000/4095 = 12.5 electrons per A/D bit. Add +/- 1 bit noise on each A/D reading, and noise should be about 1.4 bits, or 1.4 * 12.5 = 17.5 electrons not including actual sensor read noise. DSLRs are so good at low ISOs, they are limited at the low end by A/D converter electronics, not sensor read noise.
Small pixel P&S cameras get so few photons, that the entire range is adequately characterized by 12-bit converters.
Roger
>> If the >> actual signal is bigger than say 100 photoelectrons the read [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Large pixels are not doing well in current technology, in terms of read > noise at low ISOs! Again, not doing well with 12-bit A/Ds. That is why canon has now announced a camera with 14-bit A/Ds. We'll see more of that in the future,
> The real world does not match your boogey-man stories of read noise > problems with small pixels. The real world marches to a complete description of physics, not a narrow view to push an agenda.
Roger
John Sheehy - 18 Mar 2007 01:51 GMT > Your number for the 20D is incorrect. What you refer to as read noise > is not true sensor read noise, but the limitation of a 12-bit A/D > converter. I didn't say that it was "true sensor read noise". I said that it was "read noise" and sometimes I qualify it by saying "blackframe read noise".
Regardless of the source, it is making the shadows of the RAW files much less useful than what the sensor wells themselves record.
> The 20D has a full signal well depth of 51,000 electrons. No, it has about 44,000. It has about 26,500 at RAW saturation at ISO 200, but ISO 100 has less headroom, and the camera stretches the upper highlights to reach 4095 ADUs, like the other ISOs on the camera.
Here is the same scene, with twice the exposure time on the left, ISO 100 on the left, and ISO 200 on the right:
http://www.pbase.com/jps_photo/image/73326997
The ISO 100 comes to clipping faster in the gradient, even though all the darker tones are exactly the same.
> So: 51000/4095 = 12.5 electrons per A/D bit. The 20D has 3967 meaningful ADUs; 0 through 127 are only for negative noise.
51000/3967 = 12.85 electrons per ADU. Read noise is 2.07 ADU at ISO 100. Read noise is then 12.85*2.07 = 26.61 electrons.
> Add +/- 1 bit noise > on each A/D reading, +/- 0.5 ADU, with a global offset of +/- 0.5 ADU, which should be accounted for in blackpointing the RAW data, and the former adds like any other noise; the square root of the sum of the squares, so you don't add it linearly. It sometimes goes positive when the analog noise goes negative, and visa-versa.
> and noise should be about 1.4 bits, or > 1.4 * 12.5 = 17.5 What kind of math is that? You're multiplying a term called "bits" which should be a logarithm, I think, by a linear ratio. Also, where did the 1.4 come from? The noise in an ISO 100 blackframe from a 20D is about 2.07 ADU. 2.07 * 12.5 = 25.87. 2.07 * 12.85 = 26.61. Neither is close to 17.5.
> electrons not including actual sensor read > noise. DSLRs are so good at low ISOs, they are limited at the > low end by A/D converter electronics, not sensor read noise. Whatever it is, it is a problem. 2.07 ADU of noise is not caused by bit depth. It is analog noise, regardless of where it happens in the signal path.
> Small pixel P&S cameras get so few photons, that the entire range > is adequately characterized by 12-bit converters. No argument there, for high ISOs. The FZ50 has 4800 photons per pixel, and 3982 (IIRC) RAW values at ISO 100. 12 bits could not count that accurately. Even at ISO 200, it would cause an uneven histogram, with a gap every so often. Electrons need to be oversampled by about 3x or so to avoid erratic histograms (the effects, of course, are quite subtle, but if you really were just counting photons, it could make a visible difference in deep shadows pushed in PP). Of course, read noise make exact photon counting impossible with any bit depth.
> Again, not doing well with 12-bit A/Ds. That is why canon has > now announced a camera with 14-bit A/Ds. We'll see more of that > in the future, Again, probably marketing lies. The read noise is analog. The 1DmkIIIs that Canon has released to reviewers has the same read noise, relative to max signal at ISO 100, as the mkII does.
You greatly overestimate the role of bit depth. Its effect is rather subtle in the ranges we're talking about.
>> The real world does not match your boogey-man stories of read noise >> problems with small pixels.
> The real world marches to a complete description of physics, > not a narrow view to push an agenda. The real world has small pixels that bin down to better pixels than the big DSLR pixels, and are better also, unbinned, with the same magnification of the sensor surface. So to say that larger pixels are needed for IQ and SQ is nonsense.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 18 Mar 2007 06:59 GMT >>Your number for the 20D is incorrect. What you refer to as read noise >>is not true sensor read noise, but the limitation of a 12-bit A/D [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Regardless of the source, it is making the shadows of the RAW files much > less useful than what the sensor wells themselves record. But you keep comparing this artificial A/D limit to other cameras (with small pixels) that aren't limited by the A/D converter.
>>The 20D has a full signal well depth of 51,000 electrons. > > No, it has about 44,000. It has about 26,500 at RAW saturation at ISO > 200, but ISO 100 has less headroom, and the camera stretches the upper > highlights to reach 4095 ADUs, like the other ISOs on the camera. The test data I've seen do not indicate this, whether it is 44,000 or 51,000 makes little difference; that is only 0.2 stop difference.
> Here is the same scene, with twice the exposure time on the left, ISO 100 > on the left, and ISO 200 on the right: > http://www.pbase.com/jps_photo/image/73326997 > The ISO 100 comes to clipping faster in the gradient, even though all the > darker tones are exactly the same. And is your camera calibrated to better than 0.2 stop to be sure you are seeing true sensor property. The calibration includes the f/stop, the shutter speed, the light source stability, and the ISO gain. Again, it matters little in the argument.
>>So: 51000/4095 = 12.5 electrons per A/D bit. > The 20D has 3967 meaningful ADUs; 0 through 127 are only for negative > noise. > > 51000/3967 = 12.85 electrons per ADU. Read noise is 2.07 ADU at ISO 100. > Read noise is then 12.85*2.07 = 26.61 electrons. Your smaller range (3967) only makes your argument worse.
>> Add +/- 1 bit noise on each A/D reading, > +/- 0.5 ADU, with a global offset of +/- 0.5 ADU, which should be > accounted for in blackpointing the RAW data, and the former adds like any > other noise; the square root of the sum of the squares, so you don't add > it linearly. It sometimes goes positive when the analog noise goes > negative, and visa-versa. No, the error in quantization is +/- 1 bit. There are no "half" bits!
>>and noise should be about 1.4 bits, or >>1.4 * 12.5 = 17.5 > > What kind of math is that? I took the 2-bit error and assumed the RMS would be root 2, so the factor 1.4. But I have underestimates the A/D noise. It seems that the minimum noise is more like 1.8 ADU. This is illustrated in Christian Buil's wen page, see Table 3: http://astrosurf.com/buil/5d/test.htm The data for canon sensors clearly shows all the sensors bottoming out just above 1.8 ADU.
> You're multiplying a term called "bits" which > should be a logarithm, I think, by a linear ratio. Also, where did the > 1.4 come from? The noise in an ISO 100 blackframe from a 20D is about > 2.07 ADU. 2.07 * 12.5 = 25.87. 2.07 * 12.85 = 26.61. Neither is close > to 17.5. 1 bit = 1 ADU, the smallest unit of change.
>>electrons not including actual sensor read >>noise. DSLRs are so good at low ISOs, they are limited at the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > depth. It is analog noise, regardless of where it happens in the signal > path. What is your evidence for the noise source. I pointed you to Christian Buils web page that clearly shows the read noise from multiple sensor bottoming out above 1.8 ADU. Then 16-bit CCDs used in amateur and professional astronomy properly digitize lower read noise than 26 electrons. So do point and shoot cameras with smaller well depths. P&S cameras with their cheaper electronics don't seem limited by some mythical 26 electron analog noise. To the contrary, a 1.8 ADU error in A/D conversion best describes all the available data, from P&S to scientific systems.
>>Small pixel P&S cameras get so few photons, that the entire range >>is adequately characterized by 12-bit converters. > > No argument there, for high ISOs. The FZ50 has 4800 photons per pixel, > and 3982 (IIRC) RAW values at ISO 100. 12 bits could not count that > accurately. Why not. 4800 electrons/3982 = 1.2 electrons/ADU, pretty good.
> Even at ISO 200, it would cause an uneven histogram, with a > gap every so often. Electrons need to be oversampled by about 3x or so > to avoid erratic histograms (the effects, of course, are quite subtle, > but if you really were just counting photons, it could make a visible > difference in deep shadows pushed in PP). Of course, read noise make > exact photon counting impossible with any bit depth. Sorry, but I see no evidence for the need to oversample electrons 3x. That would be ISO 4800 on the Canon 5D! Again, see Christian Buil's web page. He has a section on optimal gain: see Table 5: http://astrosurf.com/buil/5d/test.htm
What you need is adequate sampling of the noise, not an electron. Christian derives, for example the optimal gain for the 5D at ISO 1100, or 1.5 electrons/ADU.
>>Again, not doing well with 12-bit A/Ds. That is why canon has >>now announced a camera with 14-bit A/Ds. We'll see more of that >>in the future, > Again, probably marketing lies. The read noise is analog. The 1DmkIIIs > that Canon has released to reviewers has the same read noise, relative to > max signal at ISO 100, as the mkII does. Hmmm. Doesn't fit your paradigm, so its marketing lies. Canon claims significant improvement in shadow detail. We'll have to wait and see until real tests are performed, not reviewers using raw converters that mes sup the signal.
> You greatly overestimate the role of bit depth. Its effect is rather > subtle in the ranges we're talking about. Hardly.
>>The real world marches to a complete description of physics, >>not a narrow view to push an agenda. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > magnification of the sensor surface. So to say that larger pixels are > needed for IQ and SQ is nonsense. Sorry, not the physics of the real world. If we had perfect sensors with zero added noise, then small pixels summed could equal larger pixels, but not better them.
Roger
acl - 18 Mar 2007 13:50 GMT On Mar 18, 8:59 am, "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <usern...@qwest.net> wrote:
> >>and noise should be about 1.4 bits, or > >>1.4 * 12.5 = 17.5 [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I took the 2-bit error and assumed the RMS would be root 2, > so the factor 1.4. But I have underestimates the A/D noise. He is trying to say that bits=log(counts)/log(2), and you meant counts, not bits.
> It seems that the minimum noise is more like 1.8 ADU. > This is illustrated in Christian Buil's wen page, see Table 3:http://astrosurf.com/buil/5d/test.htm > The data for canon sensors clearly shows all the sensors > bottoming out just above 1.8 ADU. acl - 16 Mar 2007 13:31 GMT > I think you guys are talking past each other here. > > I think John is arguing that _for a sensor of a given size_, larger pixels > aren't any better. But doesn't this make him a "crop fan" for you? Or does your attitude depend on who you're replying to?
David J. Littleboy - 16 Mar 2007 15:55 GMT >> I think you guys are talking past each other here. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > But doesn't this make him a "crop fan" for you? No. I think what John is saying is orthogonal to sensor size arguments. He's arguing that for a given sensor size, one wants as many pixels as one can get. Roger is arguing that for a given number of pixels, one wants the largest sensor you can get.
I suspect that they're both right.
David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan
Doug McDonald - 16 Mar 2007 17:33 GMT > No. I think what John is saying is orthogonal to sensor size arguments. He's > arguing that for a given sensor size, one wants as many pixels as one can > get. Roger is arguing that for a given number of pixels, one wants the > largest sensor you can get. > > I suspect that they're both right. It is certainly not true that for a given sensor size, one wants as many pixels as possible. One does not want pixels so small that no or very very few lenses can make use of the resulting sensor resolution, because smaller pixels result in worse very low light noise. This only occurs when the square root of the number of photons is smaller than the read noise.
For sensitivity, one does want, for a given number of pixels, the largest sensor size possible. Of course, to use this one needs large, fast, expensive lenses ... and the concommittent loss of depth of field.
Doug McDonald
David J. Littleboy - 17 Mar 2007 00:37 GMT >> No. I think what John is saying is orthogonal to sensor size arguments. >> He's arguing that for a given sensor size, one wants as many pixels as [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > resolution, because smaller pixels result in worse very low light > noise. The point/claim is that pixel binning (or noise reduction plus downsampling) will result in the same image as the larger pixels would have in lower light. One is collecting the same number of photons, so this should/might work.
Meanwhile, system (lens + sensor) resolution (MTF) is always improved by having more pixels, even if only marginally, in the situations where there's enough light for the smaller pixels. And there are lenses that have lots of resolution at (any prime 85mm or longer at any f stop or medium wide/normal primes at f/5.6 to f/11, for example).
David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan
acl - 17 Mar 2007 01:26 GMT > Meanwhile, system (lens + sensor) resolution (MTF) is always improved by > having more pixels, even if only marginally, in the situations where there's > enough light for the smaller pixels. And there are lenses that have lots of > resolution at (any prime 85mm or longer at any f stop or medium wide/normal > primes at f/5.6 to f/11, for example). Having more and therefore smaller pixels and binning also means we're oversampling. So we can use an antialiasing filter that blurs less, resulting in sharper downsampled images (in other words, the transfer function of the AA filter can start curving downwards at higher frequenciesthan it does now). Of course this has to be balanced against fill factors, noise from electronics etc affecting the S/N ratio.
Still, I have never had any doubt that eventually (and I don't mean in 20 years, but earlier than that) we'll end up with very high resolution sensors and will simply downsample to whatever we want, depending on output requirements and sensitivity demands. I cannot believe that read noise etc cannot be overcome. For example, there must be hardware binning techniques to reduce readout noise per binned pixel to less than simply reading out at the max resolution and downsampling (JPS I think meantioned something already).
Paul Rubin - 17 Mar 2007 03:12 GMT > The point/claim is that pixel binning (or noise reduction plus downsampling) > will result in the same image as the larger pixels would have in lower > light. One is collecting the same number of photons, so this should/might > work. Is there experimental validation for this claim? My experience has been not so encouraging but I'm probably not using the best possible methods.
acl - 17 Mar 2007 03:35 GMT > > The point/claim is that pixel binning (or noise reduction plus downsampling) > > will result in the same image as the larger pixels would have in lower [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > been not so encouraging but I'm probably not using the best possible > methods. If the only error is shot noise, then there is no difference bet binning 4 pixels and using a pixel twice as long. eg create a random image (add noise to an empty image) in ps, measure the std and then bin and repeat. Or in real images, find a uniform area and do the same. It works (if it didn't, it would mean that the noise isn't uncorrelated, and then you could model it and remove it). What may be a problem is if there is a constant amount of noise per pixel which does not scale, then, the more you bin, the worse it becomes. Also the finite fraction of pixel area taken up by non-photosensitive stuff.
Paul Rubin - 17 Mar 2007 03:55 GMT > > Is there experimental validation for this claim? My experience has > > been not so encouraging but I'm probably not using the best possible [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > What may be a problem is if there is a constant amount of noise per > pixel which does not scale, then, the more you bin, the worse it becomes. Precisely. Thus the question about experimental validation. I think we've pretty much established that with large pixels, shot noise dominates. I don't think this has been established for small pixels
acl - 17 Mar 2007 04:33 GMT > Precisely. Thus the question about experimental validation. I think > we've pretty much established that with large pixels, shot noise > dominates. I don't think this has been established for small pixels Well for high signal levels I certainly hope it does. But what dominates per pixel isn't the point, the point is that if we read the pixels, each having read noise r, and bin them nxn, the read noise per binned pixel will be effectively n*r. So we'd need lower read noise.
For example, if we take the data Roger has for the S70 and the D200 here http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/digital.sensor.performance.summary/index.html we see that if we binned the image from the S70 3x3 we'd get effectively around 9 electrons read noise (as opposed to around 7 for the D200; I assume these are at unity gain which is different, but never mind, suppose the read noise is constant). But shot noise would be potentially less. So a larger version of the S70 sensor, with the same-size pixels (I think this would be around 20mpx) could perform close to a D200 by binning, or with twice the pixel and worse low- light capabilities. This is because it has less read noise (per pixel).
If this does not work when someone tries it (I don't have an S70, and the other compact there seems to have much higher read noise), either Roger's data isn't correct (which I doubt), or the noise is correlated.
Lionel - 17 Mar 2007 04:48 GMT >> Precisely. Thus the question about experimental validation. I think >> we've pretty much established that with large pixels, shot noise [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >pixels, each having read noise r, and bin them nxn, the read noise per >binned pixel will be effectively n*r. So we'd need lower read noise. Your read noise is going to be multplied by the number of photodiodes you're binning. Worse, because the signal level is proportional to the size of the photodiode, your read noise for each pixel increases (ie; the signal to read noise ratio decreases) with decreases in photodiode size.
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acl - 17 Mar 2007 04:54 GMT > >> Precisely. Thus the question about experimental validation. I think > >> we've pretty much established that with large pixels, shot noise [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > the signal to read noise ratio decreases) with decreases in photodiode > size. No it's multiplied by the sqrt of the number of pixels you're binning. This is exactly what I say in the part you quoted. I also do not see why the absolute value of the read noise will decrease with decreasing size. True, the s/n decreases because the signal decreases, but blah blah. Please, read the post to which you replied a bit more carefully, I think that would be the answer to what you say.
Lionel - 17 Mar 2007 05:09 GMT >> >> Precisely. Thus the question about experimental validation. I think >> >> we've pretty much established that with large pixels, shot noise [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >why the absolute value of the read noise will decrease with decreasing >size. Huh? I said the read noise would /increase/ with smaller photodiodes. (This, BTW, is for the simple reason that it's harder to read smaller signals than larger one, & because the amplifiers also suffer from thermal & shot noise that must be included in the calculations.)
>True, the s/n decreases because the signal decreases, but blah >blah. Please, read the post to which you replied a bit more carefully, >I think that would be the answer to what you say. Hm, I think I could say the same thing to you. ;^)
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acl - 17 Mar 2007 05:14 GMT > >> >> Precisely. Thus the question about experimental validation. I think > >> >> we've pretty much established that with large pixels, shot noise [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Huh? I said the read noise would /increase/ with smaller photodiodes. Oops typo, the question was "I don't see why it would increase".
> (This, BTW, is for the simple reason that it's harder to read smaller > signals than larger one, & because the amplifiers also suffer from > thermal & shot noise that must be included in the calculations.) But it will not increase in absolute value, only in relation to the signal. Look, write it down and try it (add the squares of the noises and take the sqrt), you'll see what I mean. And when you bin, you increase the signal (yes, the noises too, but, erm, read my post :) )
> >True, the s/n decreases because the signal decreases, but blah > >blah. Please, read the post to which you replied a bit more carefully, > >I think that would be the answer to what you say. > > Hm, I think I could say the same thing to you. ;^) Ah, but you'd be wrong :). Seriously, I think you misread my post.
John Sheehy - 17 Mar 2007 06:33 GMT
> Your read noise is going to be multplied by the number of photodiodes > you're binning. No. It is multiplied by the square root of that, while the signal is multiplied by it, so the S/N increases by the square root.
Read noise is more of a problem when you have less and larger pixels. Really.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Lionel - 17 Mar 2007 06:46 GMT >> Your read noise is going to be multplied by the number of photodiodes >> you're binning. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Read noise is more of a problem when you have less and larger pixels. >Really. No, it's categorically not. The bigger the signal, the easier it is to amplify & convert accurately. As the signal level decreases, it eventually drops below the noise floor, & can only be detected by statistical means, over multiple repeated samples. This is a fundmental fact in electronics.
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John Sheehy - 17 Mar 2007 16:14 GMT >>Read noise is more of a problem when you have less and larger pixels. >>Really.
> No, it's categorically not. The bigger the signal, the easier it is to > amplify & convert accurately. At the pixel level. I don't worship pixels. I use them to record images. having more of them, with slightly less accuracy each, has more useful resolution information about the subject, and when binned, has less read noise. This is what is happening now in the real world, despite your boogey-man stories. Did you read the figures for the FZ50 pixels binned to DSLR size? 8.1 electrons of read noise, out of a max of 43,200 photons, at ISO 100. That is what is real, right now. Forget your boogey-man read noise horror stories.
> As the signal level decreases, it > eventually drops below the noise floor, & can only be detected by > statistical means, over multiple repeated samples. This is a > fundmental fact in electronics. The "noise floor" is determined by the electronics used, and as useage changes, so does the electronics. Think about Canon high ISO - very low read noise for small signals; less noise in electrons at higher ISOs, where there are *SMALLER SIGNALS*. Your generalization falls apart in reality.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Lionel - 17 Mar 2007 16:36 GMT >>>Read noise is more of a problem when you have less and larger pixels. >>>Really. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >At the pixel level. Pixel level is what we're discussing here. If you don't actually understand how photodiodes or sense amplifiers work, & aren't interested in finding out, there's not really a lot of point in you arguing with people about them.
> I don't worship pixels. I use them to record >images. Then why are you arguing about them? Drop the thead, & discuss the images instead.
> having more of them, with slightly less accuracy each, has more >useful resolution information about the subject, and when binned, has >less read noise. Except that it doesn't. It's entirely possible that the sensor you're talking about produces a better image than the other sensor of the same size that you're comparing it too, but if so, it won't be because the one you like has smaller pixels, it'll be because it has better photodiodes, sense amps, ADCs, software, (or some combination of the above) than the other sensor.
> This is what is happening now in the real world, >despite your boogey-man stories. Did you read the figures for the FZ50 [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >The "noise floor" is determined by the electronics used, Amongst other things, sure.
> and as useage >changes, so does the electronics. Think about Canon high ISO - very low >read noise for small signals; less noise in electrons at higher ISOs, >where there are *SMALLER SIGNALS*. Oh dear. Please tell me you don't seriously think that the process is as simple as that. There are actually a number of possible explanations for the increased sensitivity & higher noise in Canons higher ISO modes, the most obvious being that they simply turn up the gain in the read amps, which is also simple, & has the advantage that it's compatible with the laws of physics.
> Your generalization falls apart in >reality. You've never designed an amplifier, have you? ;^)
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John Sheehy - 17 Mar 2007 17:27 GMT >>At the pixel level.
> Pixel level is what we're discussing here. Obviously; you are a member of the "Pixel as an end in itself" club.
I'm saying that pixels don't determine noise by themselves. Their spatial magnification is another factor in real-world noise strength.
> If you don't actually > understand how photodiodes or sense amplifiers work, & aren't > interested in finding out, there's not really a lot of point in you > arguing with people about them. I don't know all the details of the process, but I *CAN* read the evidence of current cameras, which says that read noise does *NOT* deteriorate as much with small signals in the real world, as you boogey- man stories suggest.
>> I don't worship pixels. I use them to record >>images.
> Then why are you arguing about them? I'm arguing against them as ends in themselves. My interest is in the subject and the image, and pixels are only one of the factors. The noise of an image, and the dynamic range of an image, are not directly related to the noise of the pixels. That is just a lot of a priori nonsense that has been repeated so many times that people believe and defend it.
> Drop the thead, & discuss the > images instead. I have been, all along. Are you really that dense?
>> having more of them, with slightly less accuracy each, has more >>useful resolution information about the subject, and when binned, has >>less read noise.
> Except that it doesn't. It's entirely possible that the sensor you're > talking about produces a better image than the other sensor of the > same size that you're comparing it too, but if so, it won't be because > the one you like has smaller pixels, it'll be because it has better > photodiodes, sense amps, ADCs, software, (or some combination of the > above) than the other sensor. Hardly. Extra resolution is worth a little more noise, even if there is more noise at the image level. At the pixel level, noise can increase with smaller pixels, and still result in lower image noise.
>> This is what is happening now in the real world, >>despite your boogey-man stories. Did you read the figures for the >>FZ50 pixels binned to DSLR size? 8.1 electrons of read noise, out of >>a max of 43,200 photons, at ISO 100. That is what is real, right now. >> Forget your boogey-man read noise horror stories. No comment on this? It is the jist of my argument.
>> and as useage >>changes, so does the electronics. Think about Canon high ISO - very >>low read noise for small signals; less noise in electrons at higher >>ISOs, where there are *SMALLER SIGNALS*.
> Oh dear. Please tell me you don't seriously think that the process is > as simple as that. You'd love to believe that, wouldn't you? This is an *EXAMPLE* of how a lower signal can is amplified with less added (read) noise. An *EXAMPLE*, to show that there isn't a strict real-world correlation, and all you can think of responding is to try to belittle me as if I were to say, "the higher the gain, the less noise added, always".
> There are actually a number of possible > explanations for the increased sensitivity & higher noise in Canons > higher ISO modes, the most obvious being that they simply turn up the > gain in the read amps, which is also simple, & has the advantage that > it's compatible with the laws of physics. That sounds like a genie wish, and you accuse *me* of naive simplicity. What a joke.
>> Your generalization falls apart in >>reality.
> You've never designed an amplifier, have you? ;^) You've never looked at existing products, have you? The read noise in small-pixel cameras, binned down to large pixels, can be less than in native big pixels. This is a fact, and you seem to want to avoid it, and cling to worst-case scenarios that are far from current reality.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< David J. Littleboy - 17 Mar 2007 03:51 GMT >> The point/claim is that pixel binning (or noise reduction plus >> downsampling) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > been not so encouraging but I'm probably not using the best possible > methods. Note that I added the word "claim" in there<g>.
I just played with this ISO 25,600 5D image (taken at ISO 3200, underexposed by three stops, and pushed in postprocessing to ISO 25,600). What I've done is taken an ISO 25,600 image, blasted it with full-tilt Lightroom noise reduction, and downsampled by a factor of 9. The idea is that a 1.5MP full-frame image at ISO 25,600 ought to have similar pixel level noise to an ISO 3200 12.5MP full-frame image.
Pushed with no other processing, 100% crop of 5D ISO 25,600 image. http://www.pbase.com/davidjl/image/75374090/original
100% luma and chroma NR in Lightroom, 1.5-pixel Gaussian blur in Photoshop, downsampled to 1.5MP, and sharpened. Full 1.5MP image. http://www.pbase.com/davidjl/image/75751501/original
It's hard to compare this to the other images, since the scaling is so different.
For comparison, here are a sequence of 5D images processed for printing as best I could at ISO 3200, 6400, 12,800, and 25,600. I think the 6,400 image would make a superb 8x10, and a surprisingly good 12x18. But the speckles are out of control in the 12,800 image, and the 25,600 image was completely unsharpenable.
http://www.pbase.com/davidjl/image/75359389/original
David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 18 Mar 2007 20:44 GMT >> The point/claim is that pixel binning (or noise reduction plus downsampling) >> will result in the same image as the larger pixels would have in lower [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > been not so encouraging but I'm probably not using the best possible > methods. Binning methods are used in astronomy all the time. e.g.: http://www.mistisoftware.com/Astronomy/Galaxies_m33.htm Sometimes binning is needed to improve the signal-to-noise ratio on faint subjects.
It is also used in scientific work. Thus it is well understood, and the claims being made here about equaling or bettering a larger pixel sensor have never been demonstrated. The one example being used in this thread to support the claim is a restricted case where the larger pixel sensor is A/D limited, not sensor performance limited. If John would do the test with the same two sensors at a higher ISO where the large pixel sensor was not A/D limited, he would come to the opposite conclusion.
Roger
John Sheehy - 18 Mar 2007 23:23 GMT
> It is also used in scientific work. Thus it is well understood, > and the claims being made here about equaling or bettering [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > large pixel sensor was not A/D limited, he would come to the > opposite conclusion. The "one example" was at ISO 1600. Read noise is 3.34 electrons at ISO 1600 on the FZ50, and as I already said, I found afterwards that just puxhing ISO 100 would have been better, with a read noise of 2.7 electrons. 3 2.7 electron FZ50 ISO 1600 pixels binned together will collect a max of 2700 electrons, with a read noise of about 8.1 electrons, quite comparable to a DSLR. The best Canons are about half of that; shot noise is significant in ISO 1600 shadows, however, and should be similar.
If you don't bin, you have 3x the linear resolution.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 19 Mar 2007 04:19 GMT > The "one example" was at ISO 1600. Read noise is 3.34 electrons at ISO > 1600 on the FZ50, and as I already said, I found afterwards that just [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > If you don't bin, you have 3x the linear resolution. Your math doesn't add up. If the FZ50 gets 4800 electrons at ISO 100, then at ISO 1600 the most it will record is 4800/16 = 300. With 3.3 electron read noise, that is only a dynamic range of 91. VERY poor. But I digress. Your 3 binned pixels would then have a max signal of 900 electrons and read noise of 5.8 electrons and a dynamic range of only 155.
The Canon 1D Mark II at ISO 1600 records ~3,300 electrons with 3.9 electron read noise and has a dynamic range of 850, or 9.7 stops.
Roger
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 18 Mar 2007 20:29 GMT > For sensitivity, one does want, for a given number of pixels, > the largest sensor size possible. Of course, to use this one > needs large, fast, expensive lenses ... and the concommittent > loss of depth of field. We've been over this one before in this news group. For the same image quality, there is NO loss in depth of field by using a larger sensor. Details are discussed here: http://www.clarkvision.com/photoinfo/dof_myth
Roger
acl - 16 Mar 2007 18:56 GMT > >> I think you guys are talking past each other here. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > I suspect that they're both right. Well Roger's argument is that read noise is independent of pixel size, in which case there is a pixel size that optimizes the resolution/ noise tradeoff (it depends on where you set your threshold for noise tolerance and on the noise properties of the sensor and electronics).
But anyway I was referring to the fact that, from reading your previous posts, I'd have expected you to make some derogatory remark. At least, that's what you seemed to do every time someone else mentioned higher pixel density as an advantage for a sensor. But it seems that now, for some reason, you decided to think before ridiculing, and I was forced to conclude that it has to do with the messenger rather than the message.
David J. Littleboy - 17 Mar 2007 00:39 GMT > But anyway I was referring to the fact that, from reading your > previous posts, I'd have expected you to make some derogatory remark. > At least, that's what you seemed to do every time someone else > mentioned higher pixel density as an advantage for a sensor. That's because up to now, it has always been in the context of a smaller sensor.
David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan
John Sheehy - 16 Mar 2007 21:40 GMT > No. I think what John is saying is orthogonal to sensor size > arguments. He's arguing that for a given sensor size, one wants as > many pixels as one can get. Roger is arguing that for a given number > of pixels, one wants the largest sensor you can get. > > I suspect that they're both right. Yes, if that is what Roger is arguing. There are legions of people, however, in other web forums that quote Roger as proof that bigger pixels are always better, in all situations, and that the "megapixel race" is a race to nowhere. He could be clearer if he means what you say, but I get the impression that he does believe that subdividing a given pixel real- estate into smaller pixels lowers the bottom line in image quality.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Lionel - 17 Mar 2007 01:09 GMT >> No. I think what John is saying is orthogonal to sensor size >> arguments. He's arguing that for a given sensor size, one wants as [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >the impression that he does believe that subdividing a given pixel real- >estate into smaller pixels lowers the bottom line in image quality. It does, because of the fill-factor problem. I've gone into this in more detail in my reply to another of your posts in this thread, but the bottom line is that the more pixels you put in a given area, the more of that area is being used for things other than collecting photons. In fact, as you increase the number of pixels in an area, you eventually reach the point where the whole area is support electronics, & there's no longer any room left for the actual photodiodes.
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David J. Littleboy - 17 Mar 2007 04:07 GMT >>> No. I think what John is saying is orthogonal to sensor size >>> arguments. He's arguing that for a given sensor size, one wants as [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > electronics, & there's no longer any room left for the actual > photodiodes. Not so much to argue with you, but to get clarification from people who know more of the details than I do.
(One thing that you don't mention, but makes your point more valid, is that I suspect that smaller microlenses are harder to fabricate and probably not as efficient as larger ones.)
How much of an issue is fill factor _in the presence of microlenses_? I'd think that microlenses would mean that fill factor in the silicon itself is much less of an issue. (This is the main issue I'd like to see addressed.)
Also, my understanding (possibly wrong) is that the CCD/CMOS sensors are fabricated in technology that's multiple generations behind the DRAM/microprocessor/ASIC curve, so there's actually quite a bit of room for improvement in the circuits.
My (jaundiced as usual) reading between the line of the FillFactory/Kodak/Dalsa stuff was that these guys don't (or didn't) have the technology to fabricate microlenses and thus the fill factor really is/was a big deal for these guys.
David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan
Lionel - 17 Mar 2007 04:43 GMT >(One thing that you don't mention, but makes your point more valid, is that >I suspect that smaller microlenses are harder to fabricate and probably not >as efficient as larger ones.) Ditto. It's damn hard to etch curved surfaces at the micro-meter level, & the slightest inaccuracies would screw things up pretty badly. (I have a pet idea as to how this might be overcome, but I don't know enough about these kinds of optics to know whether it's reasonable or totally whacky. If any optics or silicon fab experts read this, I'd love to hear from them.)
>How much of an issue is fill factor _in the presence of microlenses_? I'd >think that microlenses would mean that fill factor in the silicon itself is >much less of an issue. (This is the main issue I'd like to see addressed.) At this point, I need to disclaim any expertise on the topic of micro-meter scale optics, so I won't attempt to claim that my beliefs have any kind of authority, okay? Having said that, assuming that microlenses work similarly to lenses at the macro level, on the one hand, they should definitely help improve the signal to noise ratio at the level of the individual photodiode, but on the other hand, will fill the smaller well sooner, decreasing the effective dynamic range of each pixel. And because the output signal will still be small, you'll get more amplifier noise when you read the signal from the pixel. So my gut feeling is that as you decrease the pixel size, you'll start seeing an exponential factor appearing in the noise vs pixel-size curve.
>Also, my understanding (possibly wrong) is that the CCD/CMOS sensors are >fabricated in technology that's multiple generations behind the >DRAM/microprocessor/ASIC curve, so there's actually quite a bit of room for >improvement in the circuits. Broadly, that's not the case. You may be thinking of CCD technology, rather than CMOS.
>My (jaundiced as usual) reading between the line of the >FillFactory/Kodak/Dalsa stuff was that these guys don't (or didn't) have the >technology to fabricate microlenses and thus the fill factor really is/was a >big deal for these guys. Ever considered how you'd go about manufacturing a microlens array? - It's a much harder problem than etching a chip. ;^)
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Lionel - 17 Mar 2007 05:02 GMT >On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 12:07:08 +0900, "David J. Littleboy" >>Also, my understanding (possibly wrong) is that the CCD/CMOS sensors are >>fabricated in technology that's multiple generations behind the >>DRAM/microprocessor/ASIC curve, so there's actually quite a bit of room for >>improvement in the circuits. Now that I think about this further, I've realised that you're probably thinking of minimum feature-size, which is vitally important for DRAM & other digital circuits, but isn't terribly useful for image sensors. Image sensors can be made with older fabrication technologies because photodiodes as small as modern DRAM cells would (I think!) be too small to usefully detect photons.
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David J Taylor - 17 Mar 2007 10:06 GMT >> On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 12:07:08 +0900, "David J. Littleboy" >>> Also, my understanding (possibly wrong) is that the CCD/CMOS [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > because photodiodes as small as modern DRAM cells would (I think!) be > too small to usefully detect photons. But the smaller feature size might reduce the space occupied by the support structure and thereby improve the fill-factor.
David
Lionel - 17 Mar 2007 14:43 GMT >>> On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 12:07:08 +0900, "David J. Littleboy" >>>> Also, my understanding (possibly wrong) is that the CCD/CMOS [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >But the smaller feature size might reduce the space occupied by the >support structure and thereby improve the fill-factor. If that were possible, they'd already be doing it. Canon at least, already have up to date fabs.
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John Sheehy - 17 Mar 2007 06:18 GMT > Having said that, assuming that microlenses work similarly to lenses > at the macro level, on the one hand, they should definitely help > improve the signal to noise ratio at the level of the individual > photodiode, but on the other hand, will fill the smaller well sooner, > decreasing the effective dynamic range of each pixel. Microlenses have zero effect on dynamic range. They only alter sensitivity (and reduce aliasing strength somewhat, if insufficient AA filtering is present).
> And because the > output signal will still be small, you'll get more amplifier noise > when you read the signal from the pixel. But not relative to absolute exposure.
> So my gut feeling is that as > you decrease the pixel size, you'll start seeing an exponential factor > appearing in the noise vs pixel-size curve. Noise per pixel or per unit of sensor area?
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Lionel - 17 Mar 2007 06:42 GMT >> Having said that, assuming that microlenses work similarly to lenses >> at the macro level, on the one hand, they should definitely help [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Microlenses have zero effect on dynamic range. Not so. Each photodiode has a maximum well capacity that determines its dynamic range. When it's full, any excess is lost, & will either leak into adjacent areas, causing errors or 'blooming', or must be dumped into 'drains', which require more non-light sensitive surface area.
>> And because the >> output signal will still be small, you'll get more amplifier noise >> when you read the signal from the pixel. > >But not relative to absolute exposure. That would be true if you're using theoretical perfect amplifiers. It's not the case with real world amplifiers.
>> So my gut feeling is that as >> you decrease the pixel size, you'll start seeing an exponential factor >> appearing in the noise vs pixel-size curve. > >Noise per pixel or per unit of sensor area? Both. At the macro level, it'll manifest as decreased dynamic range. (See Roger Clarke's dynamic range vs ISO graphs for a real world view of how this effect would appear.)
(Hm. That's just given me a couple of interesting ideas as to how Canons noise reduction systems work. Multi-pattern spatial sub-sampling & integration, perhaps? Something like that might explain a lot about the noise characteristics of Canons high ISO images...)
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John Sheehy - 17 Mar 2007 16:35 GMT >>> Having said that, assuming that microlenses work similarly to lenses >>> at the macro level, on the one hand, they should definitely help [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Not so. You say "Not so", then you imply "Yes so":
> Each photodiode has a maximum well capacity that determines > its dynamic range. Which is exactly why microlenses have no effect on DR. No matter how big, small, or absent your "light funnel", the S/N at any given level in the RAW data is exactly the same; the 1:1 S/N is the same number of stops below saturation for any microlens; and that follows for 10:1, 3:1, 1:2, or any ratio you deem as "minimum usable".
> When it's full, any excess is lost, & will either > leak into adjacent areas, causing errors or 'blooming', or must be > dumped into 'drains', which require more non-light sensitive surface > area. This is all relative. The microlens coverage is equivalent to using variable neutral density filters, as far as signal level is concerned. ND filters do not affect DR.
>>> And because the >>> output signal will still be small, you'll get more amplifier noise >>> when you read the signal from the pixel.
>>But not relative to absolute exposure.
> That would be true if you're using theoretical perfect amplifiers. > It's not the case with real world amplifiers. Think Canon high ISO. Less noise in electrons, at higher gain. That's real world. The small-pixel cameras tend to have very good read noise at ISO 100, and poor amplifiers for high ISO; worse than pushing. Better can be done.
>>Noise per pixel or per unit of sensor area?
> Both. At the macro level, it'll manifest as decreased dynamic range. > (See Roger Clarke's dynamic range vs ISO graphs for a real world view > of how this effect would appear.) Roger has a knack for testing one thing, and drawing conclusions about another. My tests show that low noise in big pixels is only an advantage when magnifying the *PIXELS* at the same size; not the subject - when the same focal length, Av, Tv, and ISO are used. Roger compares large pixel,large sensor to small pixels, small sensor, with equivalent FOV, and then draws conclusions about small *pixels*. That is wrong. The conclusions should be about small *sensors*.
> (Hm. That's just given me a couple of interesting ideas as to how > Canons noise reduction systems work. Multi-pattern spatial > sub-sampling & integration, perhaps? Something like that might explain > a lot about the noise characteristics of Canons high ISO images...) That is a real-world example of how small signals are not necessarily read out with more noise in electrons, even without binning.
Stop defending the myth, and start thinking.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< acl - 17 Mar 2007 17:13 GMT > Roger has a knack for testing one thing, and drawing conclusions about > another. My tests show that low noise in big pixels is only an advantage [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and then draws conclusions about small *pixels*. That is wrong. The > conclusions should be about small *sensors*. Even ignoring all the mess in this thread, it has always irritated me how people measure the noise stdv and compare it between cameras as if nothing else matters. Obviously a given noise frequency spectrum (spatial frequency in terms of pixels) will have a different visual effect (when printed to a given size) if present in a 6mp image or a 12mp image. Of course, some thought about this results in what is being "discussed" here, ie binning and addition of noises and how things may be scaled, and I reached similar conclusions to yours some time ago (although I never measured anything, I just thought about it a bit).
But I never bothered mentioning anything here for reasons that I think are now obvious, to wit that everybody will start inventing reasons that it cannot be done, they'll argue against 1 angstrom-sized pixels as if this is what is being proposed, not bother to read what is written because they already know the answer etc.
And anyway, in 5-10 years I'll buy a very high mp small-sensor camera with built-in binning ability whether people here agree now or not.
Lionel - 17 Mar 2007 17:22 GMT >>>> Having said that, assuming that microlenses work similarly to lenses >>>> at the macro level, on the one hand, they should definitely help [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Which is exactly why microlenses have no effect on DR. Of course they do. Your microlenses gather more light. They dump more light in the well, it fills faster. Once it's full, it clips. If the pixel is larger, it doesn't fill as quick, therefore it has more dynamic range. Simple.
> No matter how >big, small, or absent your "light funnel", the S/N at any given level in [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >This is all relative. Obviously. We're discussing a bunch of small photodiodes, relative to a single larger photodiode. Unless the smaller ones have the same total surface area as the larger one (ie; fill factor of 100%), the smaller ones will fill up faster from the same total exposure, therefore they will clip (blow out) more easily, therefore they have a smaller dynamic range than the larger pixel.
> The microlens coverage is equivalent to using >variable neutral density filters, as far as signal level is concerned. Um, no. Filters /reduce/ the total exposure for a photodiode, microlenses /increase/ total exposure for a photodiode.
>ND filters do not affect DR. Of course not.
>>>> And because the >>>> output signal will still be small, you'll get more amplifier noise [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >real world. The small-pixel cameras tend to have very good read noise at >ISO 100, and poor amplifiers for high ISO; You're assuming that. You (and I too) don't have sufficient data to make this kind of definitive statement. I am, at least, making educated guesses, as I have some experience with related technology. (But I'd shut the hell up if someone from the Canon design team told me I was wrong. ;^)
> worse than pushing. Better >can be done. With small pixels? - Maybe. Easily? - Probably not.
>>>Noise per pixel or per unit of sensor area? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Roger has a knack for testing one thing, and drawing conclusions about >another. So far, I haven't seen him arguing with the laws of physics. ;^)
> My tests show that low noise in big pixels is only an advantage >when magnifying the *PIXELS* at the same size; not the subject - when the >same focal length, Av, Tv, and ISO are used. Roger compares large >pixel,large sensor to small pixels, small sensor, with equivalent FOV, >and then draws conclusions about small *pixels*. That is wrong. The >conclusions should be about small *sensors*. Well, the thing is that it's pretty easy to see that the images from a smaller sensor are noisier. Small pixels on a large sensor must, in the real world, give lesser results than large pixels on a large sensor, but the differences aren't as obvious.
>> (Hm. That's just given me a couple of interesting ideas as to how >> Canons noise reduction systems work. Multi-pattern spatial [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >That is a real-world example of how small signals are not necessarily >read out with more noise in electrons, even without binning. Of course there's more noise. The raised noise floor in high ISO images is clearly visible in the data. The bit that's interesting is that Canon manage to keep it as low as they do. That's really not an easy thing to do, despite all the assumptions some people are making about the ease of building zero-noise sense amps.
>Stop defending the myth, and start thinking. I still haven't seen any hard evidence that a myth exists. Are you aware that binning the output of a bunch of small photodiodes simply simulates what would happen inside a larger, single photodiode with the same surface area as the bunch of small diodes? And that all the extra processing involved /must/ increase the total noise level over that of the single photodiode? I can think of other, more complicated algorithms that /might/, give an improvement, but simple binning isn't one of them.
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Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 17 Mar 2007 20:27 GMT > Think Canon high ISO. Less noise in electrons, at higher gain. That's > real world. The small-pixel cameras tend to have very good read noise at > ISO 100, and poor amplifiers for high ISO; worse than pushing. Better > can be done. John, you are confusing several things in your argument in this thread. 1) Small pixel size cameras are at near unity gain at low ISO. (for other readers, unity gain ISO is the ISO where 1 electron equals one bit in the A/D converter). ISO's above unity gain ISO is nothing more than "digital ISO." You essentially gain nothing at higher ISOs as you can't measure a fraction of an electron.
2) Current DSLR cameras, like the Canon 20D, Nikon D50, and all other DSLRs tested on my web pages and other people testing cameras that I reference, ARE NOT SENSOR READ NOISE LIMITED AT LOW ISO. You cite the high read noise of DSLRs at low ISO in electrons, but that is an electronics limitation, NOT sensor limitation.
2a) As electronics improve, e.g we see that in the newly announced canon 1D mark III with 14-bit converter, the low ISO noise is reduced (according to Canon). Current scientific sensors use 16-bit converters and achieve full well digitization with good digitization of true sensor read noise. We'll see that soon in coming DSLRs.
3) So what you are describing as lower read noise for binned small pixel sensors, is really because the small pixel cameras are operating at near unity gain ISOs, while the DSLRs are not. You are comparing apples and oranges. (Interesting that DSLRs are not yet living up to their low ISO potential! That is exactly what is shown in Figure 4 at http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/digital.sensor.performance.summary where the P&S small sensors are below the 12-bit line and the DSLRs are above the line indicating they are A/D electronics limited. Note the data indicate the 1D Mark II and 5D would still be limited with 14-bit converters, so the new 1D Mark III will still not quite live up to its potential.)
4) DSLRs do not live up to their full low signal, low ISO potential because they are A/D limited. Remember, all A/D conversions are accurate to +/- 1 bit. A DSLR with 50,000 electron full well (e.g ~ Canon 20D) and a 12-bit converter digitizes 1 bit = 50000/(2^12 -1) = 50000/4095 = 12.2 electrons. 14-bit converter digitizes 1 bit = 50000/(2^14 -1) = 50000/16383= 3.05 electrons. The read noise of the 20D sensor is 3.9 electrons. 14-bits is close to digitizing that well but 12-bits is not (remember the +/- 1 bit added noise).
>>> Noise per pixel or per unit of sensor area? >> Both. At the macro level, it'll manifest as decreased dynamic range. >> (See Roger Clarke's dynamic range vs ISO graphs for a real world view >> of how this effect would appear.)
> John Sheehy wrote: > Roger has a knack for testing one thing, and drawing conclusions about [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > and then draws conclusions about small *pixels*. That is wrong. The > conclusions should be about small *sensors*. The current crop of available cameras gives choices like: 8 megapixel P&S small sensor, small pixel camera versus 8 megapixel DSLR with large pixels. I provide data and information for people to evaluate what they would lose in making a choice between such cameras. THAT IS NOT WRONG.
For those new to my web sites, relevant web pages are at: http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/index.html#sensor_analysis
John, your assertion seems to be (correct me if I'm wrong): Given two sensors of the same total size, one with large pixels, and one with small pixels, the small pixel camera can deliver equal quality images when the pixels are binned to the size of the larger pixels. You then support this by saying the low ISO read noise of DSLRs is larger than at high ISOs and at low ISOs is larger than small pixel cameras. You bolster your argument using currently electronics limited DSLRs with fictitious small pixel sensors that have many times the pixels currently available in any sensor (e.g. your 223 megapixel sensor or something like that).
So with the fact that current 12-bit DSLRs must be limited in their read noise at low ISOs and the fact that 16-bit scientific sensors available (even amateur astronomers have such chips), it is a matter of time before we see the DSLRs with lower effective read noise, e.g. as is the case with the new 1D Mark III. So, I think you should level the playing field and use true sensor read noise in your calculations. When you do, you'll find this is a common sampling problem and is encountered in science all the time. The noise in any one measurement has an error. The smaller the signal, the lower the signal to noise ratio of that measurement. Adding multiple samples improves as the square root of the number of samples.
So in the level playing field of equal read noise in both large and small sensor, the small sensor binned up to the large sensor will have read noise higher by the square root of the number of pixels binned.
If you want to try the experiment with current cameras, use an ISO where the DSLR is not electronics limited, like ISO 800. You'll see that the small pixel camera can actually come close in binned images quality, but noise AT BEST at the low end will be worse by square root number of pixel binned. Fill factor using edge effects will actually make the small pixels worse overall. How much worse depends on a number of factors, all quite predictable if we knew what the parameters were (like the fill factors).
Then in the real world, you earlier complained about fixed pattern noise. The practical problem with your idea is that for the small pixel camera to compete with the large pixel camera, the fixed pattern noise would have to be considerably less than the fixed pattern noise in the large pixel camera, by at least the square root of the number of pixels being binned (depends on the spatial frequency distribution of the fixed pattern noise).
So, again, I resent you saying my data are wrong when you are applying it to theoretical cameras that do not exist. My data and conclusions are absolutely right for evaluating current cameras that DO EXIST and that people are trying to choose and understand the differences between such real cameras.
Roger
acl - 17 Mar 2007 20:53 GMT On Mar 17, 11:22 pm, "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <usern...@qwest.net> wrote:
> > Think Canon high ISO. Less noise in electrons, at higher gain. That's > > real world. The small-pixel cameras tend to have very good read noise at [quoted text clipped - 93 lines] > small sensor, the small sensor binned up to the large sensor will have > read noise higher by the square root of the number of pixels binned. Hi. I am obviously not JPS. Basically, you and everybody else who disagree with what he says keep repeating this as if it was never mentioned, and imply that it negates his argument. It doesn't. For a uniform subject, it's true that if I have two sensors of the same size but with different sized pixels, and if they all have the same read noise (per pixel), then the only difference between the binned pixels is that the effective read noise in the binned pixel is n times larger (if I binned n pixels), I don't think anybody disagreed. I ignore fill factors here (ie take them to be unity).
Without retyping every single thing I have typed in this thread (obviously nobody cares about it), your argument seems to be that this means that we'll always get better performance from larger pixels. That's true, and obviously there's a lower bound to read noise/pixel, and this sets a lower bound on the effective pixel size (this will depend on a threshold I set for acceptable low illumination performance).
But I find it very hard to believe that this limit is at 6 microns, or that the performance of the canon cameras in terms of read noise cannot be duplicated and improved. So I don't understand everybody's reactions to this idea (on the other hand, they do not surprise me). Yes it's a tradeoff between low light performance in that for given read noise we'll get better performance with larger pixels, although nowhere near the extend to which this is done now with small pixel cameras. The low light performance can be improved by lower read noise and larger pixels (obviously!), so it is a tradeoff, in the end, and for low enough read noise we can approach the performance of larger pixels (as you said, the only difference is a term in the noise of n*r, with n^2 the number of binned pixels and r the read noise/pixel). Nobody is arguing that we want 1nm^2 pixels here, so we're not dealing with a physical limit.
Look, if I met you in 1984 at a conference (so in a technological mood :) ) and told you that in 22 years you'll be able to buy a 5D or a D200 for less than 2000 euro/dollars (or even a p&s for 100 euro), what would you say? Remember, even AF cameras were novelties then. My point is that your arguments are basically based on current technology, not fundamental limits, except when talking about extreme low light performance (a few electrons/pixel). And it's not as if we're talking about something as extreme as a detector requiring .4K to work, we are discussing reducing read noise at low gains. I am sure it is not trivial to do, but that's another story.
> If you want to try the experiment with current cameras, use an > ISO where the DSLR is not electronics limited, like ISO 800. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > that people are trying to choose and understand the differences between such > real cameras. I don't think he said it's wrong, he disagreed with your conclusions.
> Roger Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 18 Mar 2007 00:06 GMT > But I find it very hard to believe that this limit is at 6 microns, or > that the performance of the canon cameras in terms of read noise > cannot be duplicated and improved. 6-micron limit? Who said 6-micron limit? I haven't said anything about a 6 micron limit. I've only argued that the premise of binning smaller pixels can equal the performance of larger pixels. That goes for 8 versus 16-micron pixels or 2 versus 6. I also said given the choice of a 200+ megapixel camera with 2-micron pixels or a 24 mpixel camera with 6 micron pixels, I would choose the 200+ camera for static shots and the 24 mpixel camera for fast action and low light work.
Roger
acl - 18 Mar 2007 05:06 GMT On Mar 18, 3:00 am, "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <usern...@qwest.net> wrote:
> > But I find it very hard to believe that this limit is at 6 microns, or > > that the performance of the canon cameras in terms of read noise > > cannot be duplicated and improved. > > 6-micron limit? Who said 6-micron limit? I haven't said anything > about a 6 micron limit. Nobody mentioned 6 microns. But 6 microns is the current smallest size of DSLR pixels, and you wrote:
2) Current DSLR cameras, like the Canon 20D, Nikon D50, and all other DSLRs tested on my web pages and other people testing cameras that I reference, ARE NOT SENSOR READ NOISE LIMITED AT LOW ISO.
So read noise isn't the limiting factor for current dslrs, but the ADC. If the pixels were significantly smaller (thus lower well capacities), eventually read noise would become limiting (and yes, shot noise too, but we can bin them and get rid of that, while we cannot reduce the significance of read noise by binning, as has been gone over ad nauseum by all sorts of people here). Since current sensors aren't limited by their read noise, but smaller pixels would, I concluded that the argument was that we are well-balanced now. Maybe I misunderstood.
But I cannot see why read noise can't be reduced further. Also, I cannot see why on-chip binning cannot be implemented, so that the read noise (or the part of it that is purely due to reading out the charges) can be independent of how many pixels are binned (thus, r per pixel for unbinned pixels, r per binned pixel for binned). I do not know how much of it is indeed due to readout and how much due to other stuff (eg the structures around the sensing area), though. It's one thing to say it's not done now, and another to say it cannot be done (which you didn't, I know; nor did anybody else).
> I've only argued that the premise > of binning smaller pixels can equal the performance of larger pixels. > That goes for 8 versus 16-micron pixels or 2 versus 6. > I also said given the choice of a 200+ megapixel camera with > 2-micron pixels or a 24 mpixel camera with 6 micron pixels,
> I would choose the 200+ camera for static shots and the > 24 mpixel camera for fast action and low light work. And a very expensive lens, and a very heavy tripod...
Lionel - 18 Mar 2007 03:21 GMT >Without retyping every single thing I have typed in this thread >(obviously nobody cares about it), your argument seems to be that this [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >that the performance of the canon cameras in terms of read noise >cannot be duplicated and improved. Who said either of those things? I haven't seen Roger do so, I certainly haven't, nor have I noticed anyone else saying that.
You seem to be arguing with something that nobody has said.
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acl - 18 Mar 2007 05:08 GMT > >But I find it very hard to believe that this limit is at 6 microns, or > >that the performance of the canon cameras in terms of read noise > >cannot be duplicated and improved. > > Who said either of those things? I haven't seen Roger do so, I > certainly haven't, nor have I noticed anyone else saying that. No point in rewriting my reply, read the one to Clark.
> You seem to be arguing with something that nobody has said. Maybe. Happens often! I don't think so in this case, though.
Paul Furman - 17 Mar 2007 21:21 GMT >> Think Canon high ISO. Less noise in electrons, at higher gain. >> That's real world. The small-pixel cameras tend to have very good [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > (for other readers, unity gain ISO is the ISO where 1 electron > equals one bit in the A/D converter). Aughhhh, I hate that I can't understand these discussions.
Unity Gain ISO - the ISO where 1 electron = 1 bit in the A/D converter
A/D Converter - analog to digital, where electrons are assigned numbers
So unity gain ISO is where there isn't a rounding error problem. Read Noise is the rounding problems, higher bit depth in the raw file lessens read noise.
P&S cameras don't have this problem because there are so few electrons, they are easy to count?
Does it really matter if there are minor rounding errors? Is it really noise because colors are off by 1 bit? Relevant noise is random wack hair-brained colors, not minute color shifts, right?
What is Dark Current?
What's this business of clipping at blackpoint before setting gamma? That means you can set the blackpoint? How could there be negative number? Why?
I don't get the charts against pixel pitch. It doesn't matter because there could be some efficiency or inefficiency in the layout, the only thing that matters is full well electrons, right?
Signal to Noise seems clear enough, shoot a gray card & count the pixels that come out some color other than gray.
What is the significance of raw noise versus final bayer interpolated RGB values unless you are doing binning to interpolate by greatly shrinking the pixel count? (if I understand the term 'binning' correctly)
And who cares what the characteristics are before white balancing? Nobody is using un-whitebalanced images and the basic WB is fairly dramatic in any lighting. I can see how these things make the math clean but I don't see how they are necessarily relevant in the final product.
Ah, my head hurts... am I understanding?
> ISO's above unity gain > ISO is nothing more than "digital ISO." You essentially gain [quoted text clipped - 122 lines] > > Roger Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 18 Mar 2007 21:53 GMT >>> Think Canon high ISO. Less noise in electrons, at higher gain. >>> That's real world. The small-pixel cameras tend to have very good [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Unity Gain ISO - the ISO where 1 electron = 1 bit in the A/D converter Yes, the smallest integer interval. In a 12-bit A/D, there are 2^12-1 levels = 4095. So the finest interval that is recorded is max signal into the A/D converter / 4095.
> A/D Converter - analog to digital, where electrons are assigned numbers Yes. And digital converters always have an accuracy of +- one number. So if the signal is 2/4095 of full signal, the answer the A/D will give is sometimes 1, sometimes 2, or sometimes 3.
> So unity gain ISO is where there isn't a rounding error problem. > Read Noise is the rounding problems, higher bit depth in the raw file > lessens read noise. Yes, assuming one can actually "see" one electron (and in electronic sensors, the noise is only a few electrons, so there is really no benefit to gains higher that digitizing one electron. It's really pretty impressive when you think about it. We are buying, for a few hundred dollars, devices (digital cameras) that directly detect quantum processes!
> P&S cameras don't have this problem because there are so few electrons, > they are easy to count? Effectively, yes. They capture so few photons that 12 bits (4095 levels) adequately records the highest signals to the smallest signals with the few electron noise. Current electronic sensors, CCDs or CMOS, capture at most about 1000 to 2000 photo-electrons per square micron. So a 2 square micron CCD fills up with electrons at only 4,000 to 8,000 electrons. 8000/4095 = 1.95 electrons per number out of the A/D converter. But a large pixel DSLR can have 60+ square micron collection area. For example the 1D mark II stores a maximum of about 80,000 electrons (ISO 50), so the 12-bit A/D converter gives 80,000/4095 = 19.5 electrons per data number. If you boost the gain to a higher ISO, so you look at only the bottom 8,000 electrons, then the A/D records 1.95 electrons per number, like the small P&S camera, but at a much higher ISO. When you boost gain to so one number in the A/D conversion is equivalent to 1 electron, that is the unity gain ISO. That is a factor of more than 16 from current small pixel P&S cameras to large pixel DSLRs, and is the fundamental reason why small sensor cameras have poor high ISO performance, and why they always will relative to their larger cousins.
> Does it really matter if there are minor rounding errors? Is it really > noise because colors are off by 1 bit? Relevant noise is random wack > hair-brained colors, not minute color shifts, right? Noise that we view is mostly due to intensity variations. Noise due to color shifts is called chrominance noise and is less bothersome. Noise in bright parts of a scene are not objectionable to most viewers, but the noise becomes more obvious in night scenes or in shadow detail. For example, look at Figure 5 on this page: http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/does.pixel.size.matter2 The Canon S70 image looks pretty noisy, especially in the dark areas, and that is due to a few electron noise. So 1 bit noise is usually not a factor unless one is pushing limits (like is done in high ISO action photography, night and low light photography).
> What is Dark Current? All electronic sensors have some electrons that leak into the well with the other electrons from the converted photons. The dark current amount is temperature dependent and that adds noise equal to the square root of the number of electrons accumulated from the dark current over the exposure. For most modern digital cameras with exposures less then a few tens of seconds, dark current is negligible. For long exposure of minutes it can become dominant over read noise.
> What's this business of clipping at blackpoint before setting gamma? > That means you can set the blackpoint? How could there be negative > number? Why? Because there is noise all signals, e.g. read noise, the natural fluctuations can send a measured signal to negative voltage. Manufacturers usually set a small offset in the electronics voltage to compensate. Lets say the sensor put out 1 volt on the output amplifier to the analog-to-digital (A/D) converter. Manufacturers add a small negative voltage, like 0.02 volts so the A/D converter digitizes from -0.02 volt to 1 volt. Thus 0 light on the sensor gives about number 100 in the output raw file. Some raw converters subtract off that level, but some values will be less than 100, and in the subtracted image, values would be clipped at zero.
> I don't get the charts against pixel pitch. It doesn't matter because > there could be some efficiency or inefficiency in the layout, the only > thing that matters is full well electrons, right? Actually, what matters is: 1) quantum efficiency of converting photons to electrons (typically in the 30 to 50% range in modern digital cameras, and that is very good), 2) active area to convert photons to electrons (currently effectively in the 80% range although manufacturers do not generally publish that number (Kodak does on their sensors), 3) the full well capacity to hold those electrons.
Quantum efficiency is similar for current consumer devices, so within a factor of two they are pretty much the same. Full well capacity is correlated to pixel pitch, as is active area. Full well capacity is about 1000 to 2000 electrons per square micron. The vertical scatter in the pixel pitch plots you refer to are mostly due to the variations in active area, full well capacity and quantum efficiency between devices.
> Signal to Noise seems clear enough, shoot a gray card & count the pixels > that come out some color other than gray. Not quite. Not a color, but an intensity in each red, green or blue channel.
> What is the significance of raw noise versus final bayer interpolated > RGB values unless you are doing binning to interpolate by greatly > shrinking the pixel count? (if I understand the term 'binning' correctly) The raw conversion with Bayer interpolation is variable. Some converters, like the Canon converter do minimal sharpening and effectively average pixels, reducing noise by about 1.5x. Other converters (in their default settings) attempt to increase apparent spatial detail but at the expense of increased noise. The Rawshooter Essentials is one such example (technology now in Photoshop CS3 beta), and does very well in my experience. It is nice to have the high signal to noise ratio that large pixels give to play the game in raw conversion: do I want a lower noise lower resolution image, or more detail at the expense of noise? If the signal-to-noise ratio is high to begin with, you can afford to push for more apparent spatial detail. You don't have that luxury with smaller pixels and the lower signal-to-noise ratios they give.
> And who cares what the characteristics are before white balancing? > Nobody is using un-whitebalanced images and the basic WB is fairly > dramatic in any lighting. I can see how these things make the math clean > but I don't see how they are necessarily relevant in the final product. Yes, I basically agree. One must have adequate S/N to white balance, however. For example, there are very few blue photons from an incandescent lamp, so after white balancing noise in the blue can be quite large. In that case it might be better to use a color correction filter on the lens and a longer exposure to get more blue photons.
> Ah, my head hurts... am I understanding? I think so. It's those who don't know what question to ask that are probably not understanding (unless of course they completely understand).
Very good questions. I'll probably develop this into a web page and add it to my sensor analysis section.
Roger
Paul Furman - 19 Mar 2007 17:57 GMT Thanks for the reply... a few comments below.
Roger N. Clark wrote:
>> Roger N. Clark wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > high ISO performance, and why they always will relative to their > larger cousins. OK so a 1D mark II can boost ISO 19.5x without increasing read noise. I see unity on your chart at 1300 (close enough). Still it seems like the read noise would be trivial compared to the basic noise at ISO 1300.
>> Does it really matter if there are minor rounding errors? Is it really >> noise because colors are off by 1 bit? Relevant noise is random wack [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > not a factor unless one is pushing limits (like is done in > high ISO action photography, night and low light photography). The read noise (rounding errors) is going to be the difference between 30 & 31 (on a scale from -30 to 4096) and intuitively I'd guess ISO 1600 noise is more like 30 & 300 isn't that roughly in the ballpark? Maybe it does make more of a difference in the shadows because of the linear issue & applying a curve when setting a 'normal' gamma. When I look at noise I see clear reds, blues & greens in what ought to be greys, that looks like a lot more than a few bits to me.
>> What is Dark Current? > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > dark current is negligible. For long exposure of > minutes it can become dominant over read noise. Oh yeah, now I recall, it's heat generated noise... background heat producing apparent detail, and can be reduced with dark frame subtraction.
>> What's this business of clipping at blackpoint before setting gamma? >> That means you can set the blackpoint? How could there be negative [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > subtract off that level, but some values will be less than 100, and > in the subtracted image, values would be clipped at zero. OK this makes sense. So including the negative shadow noise would give blacker blacks, even though it is just random cloudiness.
>> I don't get the charts against pixel pitch. It doesn't matter because >> there could be some efficiency or inefficiency in the layout, the only [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Quantum efficiency is similar for current consumer devices, so > within a factor of two they are pretty much the same. Only 30-50% sounds like tons of room for improvement.
> Full well > capacity is correlated to pixel pitch, as is active area. > Full well capacity is about 1000 to 2000 electrons per square > micron. The vertical scatter in the pixel pitch plots you refer to are > mostly due to the variations in active area, full well capacity > and quantum efficiency between devices. The pixel pitch is a nice clue but ultimately it's not reliable data and not really meaningful, except to show how neatly each camera has packed it's sensors. Those charts seem to me like they would be easier to read as a simple stack or bar chart.
>> Signal to Noise seems clear enough, shoot a gray card & count the >> pixels that come out some color other than gray. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > pixels, reducing noise by about 1.5x. Other converters (in their default > settings) Well default settings don't really matter.
> attempt to increase apparent spatial detail but at the > expense of increased noise. The Rawshooter Essentials is one > such example (technology now in Photoshop CS3 beta), and does very > well in my experience. I tried RSE and was not pleased at all, I like CS3/CS much better. It may be that RSE just allowed more extreme adjustments so I was more likely to create unnatural looking conversions.
> It is nice to have the high signal to noise > ratio that large pixels give to play the game in raw conversion: [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Very good questions. I'll probably develop this into a web page and > add it to my sensor analysis section. Thanks again for taking the time.
John Sheehy - 19 Mar 2007 23:47 GMT > The read noise (rounding errors) Read noise is not rounding errors. The blackframe read noise in Canons is mostly real, analog noise picked up somewhere between amplification at the sensor wells, and digitization.
I'm not sure if Roger is suggesting that the read noise is just something that happens in general before digitization or is part of the quantization itself, but it is most certainly *NOT* the quantization. It is analog noise, digitized.
The idea that current blackframe read noises are a hard mathematical result of quantization is nonsense. In the absence of any analog noises, the quantization only makes noises of less than 0.3 ADUs (and 0.3 is a worst-case scenario, and requires a complex signal to appear all over the image).
Do you remember my images of the dock pilings, shot with the same absolute exposure at ISOs 100 and 200 from a couple years ago?
I quantized the ISO 1600 image to the same level as the ISO 100, and its noise did not increase visibly at all. I had to subtract one from the other and multiply the result greatly to even see the difference! The ISO 100, however, looked quite noisy compared to either the quantized or unquantized ISO 1600. Conclusion: bit depth and quantization are *NOT* the limiters of shadow quality; analog read noise is.
Another point in this regard is that the DR of the 1DmkIII is exactly the same as the 1DmkII; if the standard deviation of the blackframe were somehow correlated to the least significant bits, you would expect the values to remain fairly constant with the 2 extra bits (in native ADUs), but they do not - they quadruple, meaning that they have *NOTHING* whatsoever to do with quantization, and everything to do with analog read noise.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Paul Furman - 20 Mar 2007 00:07 GMT >>The read noise (rounding errors) > > Read noise is not rounding errors. Maybe a semantics problem? Are you two talking about the same thing?
> The blackframe read noise in Canons > is mostly real, analog noise picked up somewhere between amplification at > the sensor wells, and digitization. Urgh, what is 'blackframe'?
> I'm not sure if Roger is suggesting that the read noise is just something > that happens in general before digitization or is part of the > quantization itself, but it is most certainly *NOT* the quantization. It > is analog noise, digitized. I think analog noise is what he calls plain old noise??? Rounding errors was an issue for him in explaining why the high bit ImagePlus raw converter produced cleaner images, though I'm not convinced rounding errors are significant.
> The idea that current blackframe read noises are a hard mathematical > result of quantization is nonsense. In the absence of any analog noises, > the quantization only makes noises of less than 0.3 ADUs (and 0.3 is a > worst-case scenario, and requires a complex signal to appear all over the > image). ADU = Analog to Digital Unit? electrons, photons, bits???
> Do you remember my images of the dock pilings, shot with the same > absolute exposure at ISOs 100 and 200 from a couple years ago? Yes, that was the result of getting the detail into the higher part of the counts so that when the gamma curve is applied, it doesn't get trashed: more detail in the highlights than the shadows due to linear conversion to normal gamma. After A/D conversion, in the raw conversion step. Roger's argument is to add more bits to the raw conversion and get more detail in the shadows that way.
> I quantized the ISO 1600 image to the same level as the ISO 100, and its > noise did not increase visibly at all. I had to subtract one from the > other and multiply the result greatly to even see the difference! The > ISO 100, however, looked quite noisy compared to either the quantized or > unquantized ISO 1600. Conclusion: bit depth and quantization are *NOT* > the limiters of shadow quality; analog read noise is. I'm not sure what you mean by 'quantized'. Is that the application of normal gamma curves during raw conversion. Sorry if I'm not using the right terms.
> Another point in this regard is that the DR of the 1DmkIII is exactly the > same as the 1DmkII; if the standard deviation of the blackframe were [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > whatsoever to do with quantization, and everything to do with analog read > noise. You lost me here. Standard deviation refers to noise level deviating from what it should be? I don't even really know what standard deviation is, honestly.
John Sheehy - 20 Mar 2007 01:33 GMT >>>The read noise (rounding errors) >> >> Read noise is not rounding errors. > > Maybe a semantics problem? Are you two talking about the same thing? I don't think so, based on Roger's hope that the extra 2 bits in the mkIII will increase DR (lower read noise), which they fail to do.
>> The blackframe read noise in Canons >> is mostly real, analog noise picked up somewhere between >> amplification at the sensor wells, and digitization. > > Urgh, what is 'blackframe'? That an "exposure" that really has no exposure; going through the motion of an exposure, with the lens cap on. Most if not all digital cameras have pixels that are covered, and therefore capture "blackframe pixels" in every exposure.
>> I'm not sure if Roger is suggesting that the read noise is just >> something that happens in general before digitization or is part of >> the quantization itself, but it is most certainly *NOT* the >> quantization. It is analog noise, digitized.
> I think analog noise is what he calls plain old noise??? Rounding > errors was an issue for him in explaining why the high bit ImagePlus > raw converter produced cleaner images, though I'm not convinced > rounding errors are significant. They aren't all that significant in capture, not with current read noise levels. They are a little more significant in conversion and PP, though, AFAICT.
>> The idea that current blackframe read noises are a hard mathematical >> result of quantization is nonsense. In the absence of any analog [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > ADU = Analog to Digital Unit? > electrons, photons, bits??? There is no direct relationship between ADUs and photons or electrons. They can be expressed as a ratio to each other, but that are arbitrarily independent from system to system.
>> Do you remember my images of the dock pilings, shot with the same >> absolute exposure at ISOs 100 and 200 from a couple years ago? > > Yes, that was the result of getting the detail into the higher part of > the counts so that when the gamma curve is applied, Not exactly. It's not about the higher parts of the counts, per se. It's about signal-to-noise ratios. Michael Reichmann's explanation of "exposing to the right" introduced that vocabulary of more levels to the right, but in real world cameras, the levels aren't nearly important as the S/N ratios, which increase as you expose to the right with a given camera and ISO. When you compare one ISO against another, or against another camera, then exposing to the right in one is not necessarily better than exposing to the left in another.
> it doesn't get > trashed: more detail in the highlights than the shadows due to linear > conversion to normal gamma. After A/D conversion, in the raw > conversion step. Roger's argument is to add more bits to the raw > conversion and get more detail in the shadows that way. I have nothing against precision; more precision is always better, even if by just a tiny amount. In my own hand-conversions, I try to use the full range of precision available to me; I promote RAW files to 16-bit, multiplying the values by 16, before doing any white balancing, or demosaicing, and I even downsample in this bloated precision before clipping the blackpoint.
My point in playing down bit depth in this thread is that it is not the main source of shadow noise in current cameras; analog read noise is the main source. Roger's opinion on this is incorrect, IMO, and I have proven it by quantizing RAW data myself. Quantization does not rear it's ugly head, in clear visibility, until you quantize so far that the standard deviation is a bit below 1 ADU. IOW, you can turn the last four least significant bits of any ISO 1600 from a current Canon into zeros, and gain only a tad of noise, and still be quite a bit cleaner than ISO 100 under-exposed by 4 stops, even though they are both quantized exactly the same.
We need less analog read noise, much more than we need >12-bit depths.
>> I quantized the ISO 1600 image to the same level as the ISO 100, and >> its noise did not increase visibly at all. I had to subtract one [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> and quantization are *NOT* the limiters of shadow quality; analog >> read noise is.
> I'm not sure what you mean by 'quantized'. Is that the application of > normal gamma curves during raw conversion. Sorry if I'm not using the > right terms. Quantization is just the act of converting analog data to digitized integers. If there is no added noise in the process, then any analog range of values equivalent to one ADU will wind up with that single ADU value. For systems where absolute values matter, this means errors over any one ADU range, like -0.999 to 0, or -0.5 to +0.499, or 0 to +0.999; never +/- 1 as Roger suggests in other posts. In systems like RAW data, where the blackpoint is movable and arbitrary, there is no point in viewing the errors as anything but +/- 0.5. Of course, the analog part of the read noise can make it wider than that, (and always does in current consumer products), but that's the most that quantization in and of itself will do.
>> Another point in this regard is that the DR of the 1DmkIII is exactly >> the same as the 1DmkII; if the standard deviation of the blackframe [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> have *NOTHING* whatsoever to do with quantization, and everything to >> do with analog read noise.
> You lost me here. Standard deviation refers to noise level deviating > from what it should be? I don't even really know what standard > deviation is, honestly. It's what you get when you take a number of samples, subtract each one separately from the average of them all, square each result, average them all together, and take the square root of the new average.
There is no way that you can tell what value a pixel is supposed to be, so the individual deviation of a particular pixel is generally unknown. If, however, you photograph something like a Color Checker card, out-of- focus, in even lighting, then you have an average value that all samples within a square can be considered as the fixed value from which everything is deviating. In a real camera, light is not even and may increase the standard deviation for non-noise reasons. So, you can subtract one RAW image from another, properly registered, and measure the standard deviation a little more accurately, as you're only measuring what changes between frames. This ignores fixed-pattern noises, of course, that repeat from frame to frame. We know that adding noise to noise of equal intensity multiplies it by the square root of two, so you have to divide your standard deviations by the square root of two to get the single-frame deviations of non-repeating noises with the subtractive methods.
With a blackframe, you know exactly what the signal is supposed to be; nothing.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 20 Mar 2007 05:56 GMT > Quantization is just the act of converting analog data to digitized > integers. If there is no added noise in the process, then any analog > range of values equivalent to one ADU will wind up with that single ADU > value. For systems where absolute values matter, this means errors over > any one ADU range, like -0.999 to 0, or -0.5 to +0.499, or 0 to +0.999; > never +/- 1 as Roger suggests in other posts. Gee, some simple research would prove you are wrong. Try reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog-to-digital_converter which is a pretty good writ-up. For example, note the statement: "Commercial converters usually have ±0.5 to ±1.5 LSB error in their output." (section on commercial analog-to-digital converters.
Let's look at some noise in ADUs from a wide range cameras:
Camera Read Noise in ADU (or DN, or LSBs) ISO: 50 100 200 400 800 1600 Canon 1DMII 1.2 1.3 1.4 1.7 2.5 4.8 Canon 5D 1.8 1.8 1.9 2.1 2.6 7.4 Canon 10D 1.4 2.0 3.9 6.4 13. Nikon D50 1.8 4.0 Nikon D200 1.3 2.0 3.8 7.4 15. Canon 20D 2.0 2.2 2.4 3.2 4.5 Canon S60 2.5 Canon S70 2.0 3.4 6.3 17.
The best noise is 1.2 ADU and the average of the lowest 7 values (iso 50 or 100) is 1.7 ADU.
Now let's look at a real device, e.g. a 14-bit converter from Analog devices: http://www.analog.com/en/prod/0,2877,760%255F788%255FAD7952,00.html Note it says: ±0.3 LSB typical, ±1 LSB maximum. Error depends on the speed of conversion. This device does maximum 1 million samples per second. Canon's 1D Mark II most do 100 million samples per second.
Here is Analog Devices summary of 14 and 16 bit A/Ds working at ~ 100 megasamples/sec: http://www.analog.com/IST/SelectionTable/?selection_table_id=204 Notice that the SNR for 14-bit converters ranges 71.9 to 77.6 dB, and the lower SNR is for lower power devices (those that would more likely be used in cameras). That's less than 12-perfect bits equivalent. Also notice that no 16-bit converter reaches an SNR above 80 dB (barely over 13 perfect bits equivalent).
12-bit converters do a little better, http://www.analog.com/IST/SelectionTable/?selection_table_id=197 with SNR at 62 to 71 dB. 62 dB is less than 11 bits, consistent with the noise observed in the cameras listed above.
Explore other converters: http://www.analog.com/en/subCat/0,2879,760%255F788%255F0%255F%255F0%255F,00.html
Busted!
Roger
Paul Furman - 20 Mar 2007 18:49 GMT >> Quantization is just the act of converting analog data to digitized >> integers. If there is no added noise in the process, then any analog [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Canon S60 2.5 > Canon S70 2.0 3.4 6.3 17. Is there a way to show the 'main' sensor noise in the same units compared to this read noise? I think I understand that an AUD is the smallest unit of info that can be read, right? And these AUDs are essentially rounding errors, not random noise? If so I would expect them to follow a more consistent increas like:
1.2 2.4 4.8 9.6 19.2 38.4
> The best noise is 1.2 ADU and the average of the lowest > 7 values (iso 50 or 100) is 1.7 ADU. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Roger Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 21 Mar 2007 04:28 GMT >> Let's look at some noise in ADUs from a wide range cameras: >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Is there a way to show the 'main' sensor noise in the same units > compared to this read noise? Yes, the ISO 1600 values are pretty close to the true read noise of the sensor. So for read noise in ADUs at ISO 100 divide the ISO 1600 values by 16. For example, the 1DMII with 4.8 ADUs at ISO 1600 should be about 4.8/16 = 0.3 ADU at ISO 100. That is why a converter with more bits should improve the low ISO shadow detail.
> I think I understand that an AUD is the > smallest unit of info that can be read, right? Yes, ADU. I don't know where this ADU term came from. In the terrestrial and planetary sciences, we use DNs, and so do the engineers I've worked with on spacecraft sensors. DN = data number.
> And these AUDs are > essentially rounding errors, not random noise? If so I would expect them > to follow a more consistent increas like: > > 1.2 2.4 4.8 9.6 19.2 38.4 The ADUs (DNs) are errors introduced by 1) sensor noise + 2) analog gain amplifier noise + 3) A/D converter noise and converter errors. It's not a straight line increase because one of those three dominates at one end and another dominates at the other end of the ISO. #1 and 2 are strongly coupled. 1+2 dominates at the high ISO, #3 dominates at the low ISO in the above sensors. We are all hoping that #3 will be less in the new canon 1DMIII with the 14-bit converter. And Canon says that is the case. I hope they are right.
Roger
acl - 21 Mar 2007 16:37 GMT On Mar 21, 5:27 am, "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <usern...@qwest.net> wrote:
> >> Let's look at some noise in ADUs from a wide range cameras: > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > #1 and 2 are strongly coupled. 1+2 dominates at the high ISO, > #3 dominates at the low ISO in the above sensors. We are all If that's the case, wouldn't on chip binning improve this problem (ie number 3) at low ISOs? on-chip I mean by reading off 4 (say) pixels at a time. I know that in CCDs this is not so hard to do for 4 pixels in a line, but I have no idea if it's equally easy for eg a 2x2 block; I also don't know if this kind of binning them together introduces other sources of noise (in which case on-chip binning wouldn't help beyond a point), or how it works for a CMOS sensor. Do you have any pointers to more information?
John Sheehy - 21 Mar 2007 22:00 GMT > If that's the case, wouldn't on chip binning improve this problem (ie > number 3) at low ISOs? on-chip I mean by reading off 4 (say) pixels at [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > point), or how it works for a CMOS sensor. Do you have any pointers to > more information? Dalsa claims to be doing this with a 28MP CCD; they actually read a 2x2 block of pixels with the same CFA filter color, if I remember their whitepaper correctly. They claim the same read noise four the 4 binned pixels, in electrons, as a single pixel, giving a gain of a stop over 2x2 binning in software or firmware.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< acl - 21 Mar 2007 23:19 GMT > Dalsa claims to be doing this with a 28MP CCD; they actually read a 2x2 > block of pixels with the same CFA filter color, if I remember their > whitepaper correctly. They claim the same read noise four the 4 binned > pixels, in electrons, as a single pixel, giving a gain of a stop over 2x2 > binning in software or firmware. Great thanks, I'll look for info on their website.
John Sheehy - 22 Mar 2007 03:00 GMT > The ADUs (DNs) are errors introduced by 1) sensor noise + 2) analog > gain amplifier noise + 3) A/D converter noise and converter errors. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > 14-bit converter. And Canon says that is the case. > I hope they are right. Here's the shadow area of a 1DmkIII ISO 100 RAW, at the original 14 bits, and at quantizations to 12, 11, and 10 bits:
http://www.pbase.com/jps_photo/image/76001165
The demoasicing is a bit rough; it's my own quick'n'dirty one, but it is applied homogenously to all quantization levels, and I gave the three with extra quantization the same bit depth for demosaicing as the 14-bit (they all have the same precision for processing). Gave them all a little USM (0.5px/120%), which emphasizes the noise a little. These are all pushed from ISO 100 to 3200; the full tonal range of these images is linear, and represents the lowest 256 photonic levels (1024 through 1279) of the 15,280 usable levels of the ISO 100 RAW.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< John Sheehy - 20 Mar 2007 23:08 GMT >> Quantization is just the act of converting analog data to digitized >> integers. If there is no added noise in the process, then any analog [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Gee, some simple research would prove you are wrong. Gee, maybe you should read what I actually write. I never said that the low ISO read noise has nothing to do with the ADC. I said it wasn't the *bit depth* that causes the noise, in reply to the idea that the noise was a mathematical artifact of quantization. It is only reasonable that in the design of ADCs, bit depth far beyond analog noise are not worthwhile, in general, making the typical ADC only designed for a worthwhile bit depth, putting them all in a close range.
If you google my posts in other forums, you will see that I have concluded that the flat rate of read noise at all Canon DSLR ISOs probably has something to do with the last stages, including the ADC. I have not concluded, in along time, however, that it is because of the bit depth of the capture. It is easy to quantize data further, and see at what point on the quantization curve you are. The fact is, you have to quantize ISO 100 by about two bits, and ISO 1600 by about 3 bits, before you see more noise, due to the quantization.
> Try reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog-to-digital_converter > which is a pretty good writ-up. > For example, note the statement: > "Commercial converters usually have ±0.5 to ±1.5 LSB error in their > output." (section on commercial analog-to-digital converters. If you had paid any attention to what I wrote, you would have seen that I wrote "If there is no added noise ...". IOW, I was clearly and deliberately taking the mathematical aspect of quantization into isolation. I mentioned also in some other spot that it was not 100% clear if you were talking about the mathematical act of quantization, or the total effect of the ADC, incuding the noise it introduces. The fact is, you used the exact term "+/- 1", which doesn't look like a real noise figure, but a mathematical, theoretical one. For me to lean towards the interpretation that you meant that the +/- 1 was a mathematical error was only logical. Once again, your language leaves a lot of mystery.
In the past 24 hours, I have had three people on DPReview quote your work to me, to prove that the 14 bits in the mkIII will automatically increase DR by 2 stops, because current cameras are limited by 12-bit capture. had you made it clear that it isn't the bit-depth itself, but the noise inherent in real-world ADCs, people might be drawing more accurate conclusions. There is only going to be 2 more stops of DR if the blackframe noise drops to 1.3 14-bit ADUs (0.325 12-bit ADUs). The Imaging Resource mkIII had ISO read noises of 4.88 14-bit ADUs and greater (I get 7.91 in one file; this may have some kind of electrical interference; I have to look closer for patterns).
> Let's look at some noise in ADUs from a wide range cameras: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Canon 5D 1.8 1.8 1.9 2.1 2.6 7.4 > Canon 10D 1.4 2.0 3.9 6.4 13. Those 10D figures are way off. They are 1.9, 2.8, 4.9, 9.0, and 18.0. Perhaps your figures were taken from a blackpointed RAW blackframe.
The 5D figure is very high for ISO 1600, also. The 5D ISO 1600 blackframes I have here are all 4.6.
> Nikon D50 1.8 4.0 > Nikon D200 1.3 2.0 3.8 7.4 15. I don't recall seeing values this low at the low ISOs in the Nikon RAW files I had. These are probably taken literally from the RAW blackframe, so they are automatically reduced to about 60% of what they'd be if they weren't black-clipped, like the Canons.
> Canon 20D 2.0 2.2 2.4 3.2 4.5
> Canon S60 2.5 > Canon S70 2.0 3.4 6.3 17.
> Busted! You should pay more attention. I never said no noise came from the ADC stage or unit; I said the *bit depth* was not the problem.
Let me state my viewpoint with a very clear example; if you quantize a 12-bit Canon DSLR ISO 100 to 11 bits, it will lose little DR, much closer to 0 stops than 1 stop.
If the 1DmkIII actually had noise of 1.3 14-bit ADUs, and you quantized that RAW data to 11 bits, it would still have more DR at the pixel level than a 12-bit RAW from existing 12-bit Canons.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< acl - 20 Mar 2007 23:26 GMT > > Nikon D50 1.8 4.0 > > Nikon D200 1.3 2.0 3.8 7.4 15. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > so they are automatically reduced to about 60% of what they'd be if they > weren't black-clipped, like the Canons. Exactly: For the D200 at least, if you measure from areas where the average signal isn't zero, you see clearly that a measurement from a blackframe gives too low a stdev, consistent with clipping. This occurs with dcraw and other software which uses it to read the data, but it doesn't look like dcraw itself subtracts an offset or anything (but I may have missed it).
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 21 Mar 2007 04:17 GMT >>> Quantization is just the act of converting analog data to digitized >>> integers. If there is no added noise in the process, then any analog [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Gee, maybe you should read what I actually write. Yeah, some the other way. I always discussed quantization in terms of the ADC. ADCs are not perfect.
Fine, now I hope we are on the same page.
> If you google my posts in other forums, you will see that I have > concluded that the flat rate of read noise at all Canon DSLR ISOs > probably has something to do with the last stages, including the ADC. Great, we agree, sort of! From the data I see, I conclude most of the noise at the low ISOs is due to the ADC.
> I > have not concluded, in along time, however, that it is because of the > bit depth of the capture. A better ADC will improve the noise at low ISO. That comes with more bits (higher bit converters).
> It is easy to quantize data further, and see > at what point on the quantization curve you are. The fact is, you have > to quantize ISO 100 by about two bits, and ISO 1600 by about 3 bits, > before you see more noise, due to the quantization. This does not make sense.
>> Try reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog-to-digital_converter >> which is a pretty good writ-up. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > clear if you were talking about the mathematical act of quantization, or > the total effect of the ADC, incuding the noise it introduces. I was only talking about the ADC. That is all that matters in the quantization step. IT IS ALL ABOUT ADC PERFORMANCE. 12-bit ADCs do not give perfect 12 bits quantization.
> In the past 24 hours, I have had three people on DPReview quote your work > to me, to prove that the 14 bits in the mkIII will automatically increase > DR by 2 stops, because current cameras are limited by 12-bit capture. > had you made it clear that it isn't the bit-depth itself, but the noise > inherent in real-world ADCs, people might be drawing more accurate > conclusions. That is your jump to conclusions. If you read what I actually wrote... e.g. see the caption to Figure 4 at: http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/digital.sensor.performance.summary which I wrote before the 1D mark II was announced: Figure 4. Dynamic range of sensors. Many sensors are limited to just under 12 photographic stops by the camera's 12-bit analog-to-digital (A/D) converter. Look for future DSLRs to use 14 or 16 bit A/Ds.
> There is only going to be 2 more stops of DR if the > blackframe noise drops to 1.3 14-bit ADUs (0.325 12-bit ADUs). The > Imaging Resource mkIII had ISO read noises of 4.88 14-bit ADUs and > greater (I get 7.91 in one file; this may have some kind of electrical > interference; I have to look closer for patterns). There won't be 2 stops of improvement with 14-bit ADC if the Analog Devices ADCs are indicative of the ADC used by Canon. Canon claims 1 stop of shadow improvement.
>> Let's look at some noise in ADUs from a wide range cameras: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Those 10D figures are way off. They are 1.9, 2.8, 4.9, 9.0, and 18.0. > Perhaps your figures were taken from a blackpointed RAW blackframe. Oh, so you've tested my canon 10D? I didn't see you in my house. My numbers are correct for my camera.
> The 5D figure is very high for ISO 1600, also. The 5D ISO 1600 > blackframes I have here are all 4.6. Perhaps there is some variation in cameras, or you are testing at different temperatures. See reference 13 on my digital.sensor.performance.summary web page for the 5D data.
>> Nikon D50 1.8 4.0 >> Nikon D200 1.3 2.0 3.8 7.4 15. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > so they are automatically reduced to about 60% of what they'd be if they > weren't black-clipped, like the Canons. Well, perhaps you could examine the real data, e.g.: http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/evaluation-nikon-d200
I don't just do a dark frame measurement; I analyze the noise and response over the entire range of the sensor and model the results. See Figure 1 on the above web page. You'll see the largest deviation from the model is less than 10%, and I have light levels down to DN 16 (out of 4095). Where is your data that proves this is wrong?
> You should pay more attention. I never said no noise came from the ADC > stage or unit; I said the *bit depth* was not the problem. You've been arguing that a 14-bit ADC would not help the low ISO performance. Canon and I claim otherwise. Canon has stated improved shadow noise with their 14-bit converter in the 1DIII. Current data indicate low ISO cameras (Nikon and Canon) are limited by 12-bit ADCs.
> Let me state my viewpoint with a very clear example; if you quantize a > 12-bit Canon DSLR ISO 100 to 11 bits, it will lose little DR, much closer [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > that RAW data to 11 bits, it would still have more DR at the pixel level > than a 12-bit RAW from existing 12-bit Canons. This does not make sense.
I think this thread has gone on long enough. Let's simply wait a few months until 1DIIIs are in the hands of competent testers and publish real evaluations of read noise and full well capacities. I predict the read noise in the 1DIII at low iso will improve by about a factor of 2 over the 1DII simply from typical ADC specifications.
Oh, and one other prediction: we'll see more images being limited by photoshop's 15-bit math.
Roger
acl - 22 Mar 2007 01:52 GMT On Mar 21, 7:15 am, "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <usern...@qwest.net> wrote:
> >> Nikon D50 1.8 4.0 > >> Nikon D200 1.3 2.0 3.8 7.4 15. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > light levels down to DN 16 (out of 4095). Where is your data > that proves this is wrong? But if indeed the signal is clipped to what would have been zero had there been no noise, then this would start to be visible only when the signal and the standard deviation are roughly equal (since if the signal is higher, the noise doesn't reach zero so doesn't get clipped).
This would be invisible on the scale of figure 1. But if I understand correctly, you obtained the values for the read noise by measuring the output s and the noise n and fitting the noise curve to n(s)=sqrt(f^2+m) where m is the number of electrons and f the fixed noise? [that is, you determine f from this]? In that case indeed your value for f would be the true read noise, because the deviation from the model caused by this clipping would be over a tiny range of values to the extreme left of your plot and wouldn't affect the fitting appreciably.
Anyway, my D200 does clip the noise at zero (ie the stdev is abnormally low for very low signals). Not that this contradicts your results or has any practical significance (that I can tell).
John Sheehy - 22 Mar 2007 02:24 GMT > This would be invisible on the scale of figure 1. But if I understand > correctly, you obtained the values for the read noise by measuring the > output s and the noise n and fitting the noise curve to > n(s)=sqrt(f^2+m) where m is the number of electrons and f the fixed > noise? [that is, you determine f from this]? In that case indeed your > value for f would be the true read noise, Not necessarily. Many cameras have fairly significant noise that is neither in the blackframe, nor is shot noise. There are basically three components I've seen; the fixed, blanket noise (blackframe noise), the shot noise, and noise that is directly proportional to signal. If the latter type is significant, the camera will fail to reach the maximum S/N dictated by the photon count. My XTi is certainly like this; the top 1.5 stops or so at ISO 100 has the same S/N; about 100:1. Failure to account for it leads to an estimation of lower photon count than the actual. When I measure shot noise in low-ISO highlights, I divide signal in DN by standard deviation in DN, of a completely OOF patch of a solid area with no texture and shadows (like the color checker squares) in a single color channel of the RAW data (treating green as two different, but similar, channels), and square the result of the division. I consider this number to be the *minimum* number of photons; not *the* number.
There may be some other noise correlations as well, which I have not noticed yet (albeit low in intensity).
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 22 Mar 2007 03:32 GMT >> This would be invisible on the scale of figure 1. But if I understand >> correctly, you obtained the values for the read noise by measuring the [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > There may be some other noise correlations as well, which I have not > noticed yet (albeit low in intensity). You are limiting the signal-to-noise ratio your derive because of variations in the target you are imaging. E.g. the macbeth color checker of make of paper, which has fine textures. Illuminate the chart at a low angle and this will become more obvious. Those small variations in the target translate to small variations in intensity from pixel to pixel and result in your lower S/N. I initially tried to do this too in order to speed up testing, but hit this problem. I've encountered this problem at work in testing sensors too (more difficult when you are trying to evaluate sensors in flight on aircraft and spacecraft). I have found the only reliable way is the method used by the sensor manufacturers which uses pairs of full field illumination. That method also avoids scattered light which can also influence the lowest signal measurements which impact correct dynamic range evaluations. Details are available on my website and references therein:
Procedures for Evaluating Digital Camera Sensor Noise, Dynamic Range, and Full Well Capacities; Canon 1D Mark II Analysis http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/evaluation-1d2
Roger
John Sheehy - 23 Mar 2007 01:10 GMT
> You are limiting the signal-to-noise ratio your derive because of > variations in the target you are imaging. No, that is not the problem. I am quite aware of texture; that is why I extremely unfocus the chart, and use diffuse light. I also window the visible luminance range to exaggerate contrast for the squares, so I can clearly see any dust or texture that might be present. I look for areas that only vary at high frequency due to noise, and create a rectangular selection, and try others, of sufficient size to get a good sample, but small enough so that it is less likely to include a problem area.
The results vary from camera to camera as well; my 20D and my FZ50 have no such limit to S/N, but the XTi does.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 23 Mar 2007 04:13 GMT > >> You are limiting the signal-to-noise ratio your derive because of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > selection, and try others, of sufficient size to get a good sample, but > small enough so that it is less likely to include a problem area. Perhaps you need to look at this issue a little closer. There are very difficult problems in getting uniformity better than ~1%. Here are some of the issues:
1) Even with diffuse light, it is very difficult to produce a uniform filed of illumination better than a percent. Try some computing of light source distance and angles to different spots. 1/r^2 has a big impact. Scrambling the light may help, but it also scrambles knowledge. For example if one part of the diffuser has a fingerprint or slightly different reflectance for some reason, it produces a different field, and at the <1% level it becomes important. I have several diffuse illuminaters and run tests for uniformity and none pass the 1% test in my lab.
2) At the <1% level few targets are truly uniform. I have tested multiple surfaces in my lab for just this issue and most fail. There are large (many mm) variations in macbeth targets at the ~< 1% level. Here, for example is the macbeth color chart: http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/evaluation-1d2/target.JZ3F5201-700.jpg Now here is the same chart with the top and bottom rows stretched panel by panel to show the variations: http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/evaluation-1d2/target.JZ3F5201-700-str1.jpg There are variations on a few mm range, small spots (those are not sensor dust spots--they are too in focus), and there are gradients from one side of a patch to the other. The variations are typically a couple of percent (which in my opinion is actually very very good for such a low cost mass produced test target.)
3) The light field through the lens as projected onto the focal plane even given a perfectly uniformly lit test target, is not uniform. You have a) cosine angle changing the apparent size of the aperture, b) 1/r^ changes from center to edge of the frame, variations in optical coatings and optical surfaces translate to small variations in the throughput of the system, d) center optic rays pass through more glass than edge optic rays, and the percentage of light passing through different angles to the optical axis pass through different amounts of glass, thus have different absorption.
All of these effects may be small in photographic terms (although light fall-off is commonly seen), but at the percent level, even few percent level, they become important. Some cameras collect enough photons that the noise from photons gives S/N > 200. With your methods you are likely limiting what you can achieve.
Try replacing the macbeth chart with several sheets of white paper. Take a picture and stretch it. Can you see any variation in level? If you can't see any variation, please tell us how you compensated for all the above effects, which would require a careful balance of increasing illumination off axis to counter the light fall-off of your lens, let alone the other non-symmetric effects.
If you are testing sensors and want answers better than 10%, your method requires field illumination to be better than 10 times the photon noise, or 0.0005%. There is a reason why sensor manufacturers have adopted the methods in use today. Your method, even defocusing the target (which introduces other issues), probably can't even meet a 2% uniformity requirement.
(Actually I tried this too, thinking I could speed up the testing. It became obvious in my first tests it didn't work.)
(I've designed illumination sources for laboratory spectrometers for 25+ years, where requirements are quite tight.)
Roger
> The results vary from camera to camera as well; my 20D and my FZ50 have no > such limit to S/N, but the XTi does. Lionel - 23 Mar 2007 04:57 GMT >If you are testing sensors and want answers better than 10%, your >method requires field illumination to be better than 10 times [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >(Actually I tried this too, thinking I could speed up the >testing. It became obvious in my first tests it didn't work.) Yes, after first seeing your site, I was interested in performing similar tests to yours, so I sat down & did some maths. I soon realised that it wasn't possible to get accurate data from jury-rigged setups using charts & the like. The obvious approach was to illuminate the sensor directly with a calibrated light source, (which is something I can design myself), but I'd need lab grade optical equiment to get a flat, accurate illumination field on the sensor, & access to people with a lot more optical expertise than myself, & I no longer have access to an optics lab.
>(I've designed illumination sources for laboratory spectrometers >for 25+ years, where requirements are quite tight.) It shows. (And there's nothing quite like trying to duplicate someone else's work to make you realise how hard it was create in the first place. ;^) I'm sure I've said this before, but thank you for all the hard work you did to create a really useful photography resource.
PS: I've stopped responding to John's posts on this topic, because the weird misconceptions he's expressing about data aquisition technology are getting so irritating that I feel more like flaming him than educating him.
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John Sheehy - 24 Mar 2007 14:46 GMT > PS: I've stopped responding to John's posts on this topic, because the > weird misconceptions he's expressing about data aquisition technology > are getting so irritating that I feel more like flaming him than > educating him. What misconceptions? Almost every reply you or Roger has made to me has ignored what I have actually written, and assumed something else entirely.
Look at the post you just replied to; I made it quite clear in my post that Roger responded to, that the effect only happens with *ONE CAMERA*, yet Roger replied as if my technique were at fault, in some elementary way. He didn't pay attention, and *YOU* didn't pay attention, made obvious by your ganging up with him and failing to point out to him that it only happened with one camera.
Did you even notice that fact? (That post wasn't the first time I said it was only one camera, either).
Did you point out to Roger that when he wrote that ADCs have an error of +/- 1 DN, that because there was no range of errors amongst ADCs, and that 1 AN = 1 DN, that it would seem that he was writing about the rounding or truncation aspect of the quantization, itself, but mistakenly doubled? Surely if he were talking about ADC noise not due directly to the mathematical part of quantization, he would have given the range of error the the best and worse, or typical ADC, none of which would likely be exactly +/- 1.
It was not my fault that I thought he was talking about the mathematical aspect; he, as usual, is sloppy with his language, and doesn't care that it leads to false conclusions. He is more interested in maintaining his existing statements than seeking and propagating truth.
If anyone is weird here, it is you and Roger. You agree with and support each other when an "adversary" appears, no matter how lame your statements or criticisms.
Where was Roger when when you implied that microlenses can effect dynamic range, without qualifying that you meant mixing sensor well depths *and* microlenses? Or perhaps you didn't even have that in mind the first time you did; you came up with that exceptional, non-traditional situation to make yourself right, without giving me a chance to comment on such an unusual arrangement, to which I would have immediately said that different well depths and/or sensitivities would affect overall system DR. Your use of different well depths in the example brings things to another level of dishonesty on your part. That was nothing short of pathetic.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ASAAR - 24 Mar 2007 16:33 GMT > Almost every reply you or Roger has made to me has ignored what I have > actually written, and assumed something else entirely. . . .
> It was not my fault that I thought he was talking about the mathematical > aspect; he, as usual, is sloppy with his language, and doesn't care that > it leads to false conclusions. He is more interested in maintaining his > existing statements than seeking and propagating truth. Ah, deja vu, yet again. You've distilled l'essence du Roger.
> made obvious by your ganging up with him That too, reminiscent of one of Lionel's bizarre, out of the blue, unprovoked attacks coming across almost as an RNC sock puppet. I wouldn't be surprised if it was true. It may be in the stars!
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 25 Mar 2007 05:20 GMT > Almost every reply you or Roger has made to me has ignored what I have > actually written, and assumed something else entirely. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Did you even notice that fact? (That post wasn't the first time I said > it was only one camera, either). I look at the big picture. It's not just one line of one of your responses that I have been responding to. Here are some of your posts, which involve MULTIPLE cameras:
You said:
> The results vary from camera to camera as well; my 20D and my FZ50 have no > such limit to S/N, but the XTi does. and responding to data I've presented:
> Those 10D figures are way off. They are 1.9, 2.8, 4.9, 9.0, and 18.0. > Perhaps your figures were taken from a blackpointed RAW blackframe. and:
> I don't recall seeing values this low at the low ISOs in the Nikon RAW > files I had. and data others have derived using the same methods I use:
> The 5D figure is very high for ISO 1600, also. The 5D ISO 1600 > blackframes I have here are all 4.6. and then you discuss conclusions from other cameras:
> Here's the shadow area of a 1DmkIII ISO 100 RAW, at the original 14 bits, > and at quantizations to 12, 11, and 10 bits: > http://www.pbase.com/jps_photo/image/76001165 > The demoasicing is a bit rough; it's my own quick'n'dirty one, and these are just from a coulple of your many posts in this thread.
What I see is you attacking the data on multiple cameras from multiple sources, all of which paint a consistent picture. But as the details of your own testing come out, and shown to be inadequate, you start the personal attacks. A more appropriate response would be to 1) verify that your methods actually do not suffer from the problems I outlined, and 2) then explain why your results with your methods are actually correct and why they are better than those using industry standards.
Roger
Lionel - 25 Mar 2007 08:10 GMT [...]
>and these are just from a coulple of your many posts in this thread. > >What I see is you attacking the data on multiple cameras from multiple >sources, all of which paint a consistent picture. But as the details >of your own testing come out, and shown to be inadequate, >you start the personal attacks. Exactly.
I refuse to waste any more of my time trying to teach electronics to someone who clearly knows nothing about the subject, & who either ignores the data, or responds with childish insults about "defending myths" or "boogey-men". If John is that determined to make a fool of himself by pretending that he knows more about physics, optics & electronics than people in those industries, (including the people who /design/ the cameras, FFS!), then he can just go ahead & do so - it's no skin off my nose.
 Signature W "Some people are alive only because it is illegal to kill them." . | ,. w , \|/ \|/ Perna condita delenda est ---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 22 Mar 2007 03:44 GMT > On Mar 21, 7:15 am, "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" > <usern...@qwest.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > abnormally low for very low signals). Not that this contradicts your > results or has any practical significance (that I can tell). I use the following noise model:
N = (P + r^2 + t^2)^(0.5),
Where N = total noise in electrons, P = number of photons, r = read noise in electrons, and t = thermal noise in electrons (effectively zero for short exposures). Noise from a stream of photons, the light we all see and image with our cameras, is the square root of the number of photons, so that is why the P in equation 2 is not squared (sqrt(P)2 = P).
I track the signal and noise as a function of intensity, and watch for deviations from the model. Deviations indicate other noise sources are present, or other issues in the testing, or the camera and its processing. At low signals, if the read noise was clipped significantly, it would become obvious in the data as it would not fit well, showing a change in read noise as a function of intensity.
Details are given here: Procedures for Evaluating Digital Camera Sensor Noise, Dynamic Range, and Full Well Capacities; Canon 1D Mark II Analysis http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/evaluation-1d2
Roger
acl - 22 Mar 2007 03:58 GMT On Mar 22, 6:39 am, "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <usern...@qwest.net> wrote:
> > On Mar 21, 7:15 am, "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" > > <usern...@qwest.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > it would become obvious in the data as it would not fit well, showing > a change in read noise as a function of intensity. What I mean is this. As you say in your webpage http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/evaluation-nikon-d200/ the read noise at ISO 100 corresponds to about 1 DN; 10 electrons. So unless the signal itself is of the order of 10 electrons, almost no clipping will occur. In other words, we're talking about a deviation from the noise model you have when you are at 1 DN or thereabouts, which basically means no deviation. This would be completely invisible on the graph and missed by any fitting procedure I know of (and rightly so).
Another way to put it: this thing would occur when s\approx n, with s the number of electrons and n the "noise electrons". This could not possibly affect the fitting unless you only include a very small range of data, nor would it be visible unless you specifically looked for it (or noticed it by chance).
Now it may be that what I saw in my blackframes is because of the way dcraw outputs "raw" data; maybe it subtracts an offset. I don't know, and this effect, whatever is causing it, is so inconsequential that I did not try to find out.
But all this has made me doubt myself, so I'll take some blackframes and check again. I'll try to find and use a program not based on dcraw to read the raw files (if such a thing exists).
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 22 Mar 2007 04:25 GMT > What I mean is this. As you say in your webpage > http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/evaluation-nikon-d200/ > the read noise at ISO 100 corresponds to about 1 DN; 10 electrons. Remember, a standard deviation of 1 means peak to peak variations on about 4 DN. It is not simply you get 1 and only 1 all the time.
There is another issue with the Nikon raw data: it is not true raw, but depleted values. I think they did a good job in designing the decimation, as they made it below the photon noise.
Roger
acl - 22 Mar 2007 04:50 GMT On Mar 22, 7:22 am, "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <usern...@qwest.net> wrote:
> > What I mean is this. As you say in your webpage > >http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/evaluation-nikon-d200/ > > the read noise at ISO 100 corresponds to about 1 DN; 10 electrons. > > Remember, a standard deviation of 1 means peak to peak variations on about > 4 DN. It is not simply you get 1 and only 1 all the time. I've written papers on stochastic processes, and I know perfectly well what a standard deviation is; the point is that if this thing occurs, it is confined to extremely low signals. Maybe I should have replaced "when s=n" by "when the signal is of the order of the noise", to prevent this. Anyway, not much point in talking about this, as I think it's gotten to the point where everybody is talking past each other and we're just creating noise ourselves [which by now exceeds the signal, methinks :) ]. I'll take some blackframes tomorrow and check again.
> There is another issue with the Nikon raw data: it is not true raw, but > depleted values. I think they did a good job in designing the > decimation, as they made it below the photon noise. The D200 (and more expensive models) have an option to save uncompressed raw data. And yes, the resolution loss is indeed below the shot noise (using your measured values for the well depth). Although I guess it's now my turn to point out that this noise obviously isn't always sqrt(n) so shot noise can exceed the resolution limit (eg for a uniform subject it could be that you get zero photons in one pixel and 80000 in the other; not terribly likely, though), but never mind.
But keep in mind that Nikons do process their "raw" data. I once wrote a short program to count the number of pixels above a given threshold in the data dumped by dcraw. I ran it on some blackframes. For a given threshold, the number of these pixels increases as the exposure time increases, up to an exposure time of 1s. At and above 1s, the number drops immediately to zero for thresholds of x and above (I don't remember what x was for ISO 800), except for a hot pixel which stays there. So obviously some filtering is done starting at 1s (maybe they're mapped, I don't know).
It also looks to me (by eye) like more filtering is done at long exposure times, but I have not done any systematic testing. Maybe looking for correlations in the noise (in blackframes, for instance) will show something, but if I am going to get off my butt and do so much work I might as well do something publishable, so it won't be this :)
Well, plus I am rubbish at programming and extremely lazy.
Paul Furman - 25 Mar 2007 03:52 GMT > On Mar 22, 7:22 am, "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" > <usern...@qwest.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > in one pixel and 80000 in the other; not terribly likely, though), but > never mind. I finally took a shot where I wished I'd turned off RAW compression on my D200. It was the new moon, shot mid-day almost straight up, kinda hazy at +2 EC just before blowing then darkened in PP to a black sky and the remaining moon detail was pretty badly posterized. I actually got it to look good with a lot of PP work so I can't easily show the problem but I guess that was the cause. A rather unusual situation.
> But keep in mind that Nikons do process their "raw" data. I once wrote > a short program to count the number of pixels above a given threshold [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Well, plus I am rubbish at programming and extremely lazy. acl - 25 Mar 2007 04:21 GMT > I finally took a shot where I wished I'd turned off RAW compression on > my D200. It was the new moon, shot mid-day almost straight up, kinda > hazy at +2 EC just before blowing then darkened in PP to a black sky and > the remaining moon detail was pretty badly posterized. I actually got it > to look good with a lot of PP work so I can't easily show the problem > but I guess that was the cause. A rather unusual situation. That's interesting; I never managed to see any difference between compressed and uncompressed raw. Even when I tried to force it (by unrealistically extreme processing) I couldn't see it, even by subtracting the images in photoshop. Is it easy for you to post this somewhere? From what you say, it sounds like you did some heavy processing, did you do it in 16 bits or 8 (I mean after conversion)? This sort of extreme adjustment is just about the only place where I can see a difference between 8 and 16 bit processing (or 15 bit or whatever it is that photoshop actually uses).
On the one hand, I find it hard to believe it's the compression, the gaps between the levels that are present are smaller than the theoretical photon noise, so basically the extra tonal resolution of uncompressed raw just records noise more accurately [and since you can't really see shot noise in reasonably high-key areas, that tells you it's irrelevant resolution anyway]. On the other hand, who knows? Maybe there is some indirect effect.
Paul Furman - 26 Mar 2007 04:52 GMT >>I finally took a shot where I wished I'd turned off RAW compression on >>my D200. It was the new moon, shot mid-day almost straight up, kinda [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > subtracting the images in photoshop. Is it easy for you to post this > somewhere? Here's a 'bad' curves version, what I got out of the raw converter & the original: http://www.edgehill.net/1/?SC=go.php&DIR=Misc/moon/2007-03-22/tech -the final is up one folder I'll email the NEF file if you want to tinker, just remove the hyphens from my email. In the end I did salvage it pretty well just using ACR & 8 bit photoshop.
> From what you say, it sounds like you did some heavy > processing, did you do it in 16 bits or 8 (I mean after conversion)? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > you it's irrelevant resolution anyway]. On the other hand, who knows? > Maybe there is some indirect effect. John Sheehy - 26 Mar 2007 23:39 GMT > On the one hand, I find it hard to believe it's the compression, the > gaps between the levels that are present are smaller than the > theoretical photon noise, That still posterizes the noise and signal a little bit. You're not likely to see it with any normal tonal curve; you really need to increase the contrast quite a bit, and you will see it. For example, I remember shooting in extreme fog a couple of years ago, where I used +2 EC with my 20D, at ISO 400, and raised the effective blackpoint such that the dark parts of the Robins approached black. It brought up a bit of noise that would not normally be seen, with any exposure compensation level, while black was still anchored at black. Same with taking pictures of things reflected in glass over a white background, if you try to restore black in the processing.
> so basically the extra tonal resolution of > uncompressed raw just records noise more accurately [and since you > can't really see shot noise in reasonably high-key areas, that tells > you it's irrelevant resolution anyway]. On the other hand, who knows? > Maybe there is some indirect effect. Recording noise better is a good thing, and the same conditions record signal better as well (and allows the brain and algorithms to separate them better, as well).
In this particular case, it is only likely to be seen in extreme blackpointing, or perhaps extreme sharpening.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< acl - 26 Mar 2007 23:56 GMT > > On the one hand, I find it hard to believe it's the compression, the > > gaps between the levels that are present are smaller than the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > reflected in glass over a white background, if you try to restore black > in the processing. Well yes, that is what I was thinking too (ie that posterising the noise could cause problems under extreme adjustments), but didn't actually see anything the couple of times I tried (by shooting in forg and moving the black and white points). I also played a bit with compressed and uncompressed raw files but could not see anything so far. Maybe I was not extreme enough.
> > so basically the extra tonal resolution of > > uncompressed raw just records noise more accurately [and since you [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > In this particular case, it is only likely to be seen in extreme > blackpointing, or perhaps extreme sharpening. Yes, obviously you'd expect to see a difference under conditions that exaggerate small differences, ie extreme tonal stretching or sharpening (which is local tonal manipulation, after all). But I didn't.
Well I'll try to play with Paul's example and see what happens (unfortunately I just remembered I have an early plane to catch tomorrow so it'll have to wait a bit).
John Sheehy - 22 Mar 2007 22:18 GMT > There is another issue with the Nikon raw data: it is not true raw, > but depleted values. I think they did a good job in designing the > decimation, as they made it below the photon noise. The Leica M8 does something similar, but a little different. It writes out 8-bit gamma-adjusted RAWs as uncompressed DNG files. The RAW image is sitting neatly in the DNGs; any program that opens ".raw" files (the kind from before the era of digital cameras) can read them.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Lionel - 20 Mar 2007 09:22 GMT >My point in playing down bit depth in this thread is that it is not the >main source of shadow noise in current cameras; Bit depth of the ADC & 'shadow noise' are totally unrelated to each other, except as economic engineering constraints. For a given combination of sensor & (analog) conditioning circuit, the kinds of noise sources we've been discussing have already been managed to the best of the ability of the people responsible for the analog part of the design. Once the characteristics of the analog signal are known, an engineer selects an ADC based on the voltage range of the analog input signal (the output of the photodiode sense-amps, in this context), & then calculates the maximum useful bit-depth at which the voltage represented by one LSB (eg; a 12 bit ADC measuring a 1V signal has an LSB value of ~244uV (microvolts)) will be consistently detectable above the noise-floor of the input signal. (nb: for the sake of simplicity, I'm ignoring dithering & other sampling esoterica.) While one can convert to as many bits as one is willing to pay for, the (very expensive) extra bits will, for all practical purposes, be random numbers.
(The ADC /can/ add conversion artifacts to the sampled data, but they're not noise, are very well defined, & a good design will keep them out of the digital output.)
> analog read noise is the >main source. That's incorrect. It isn't possible to make a blanket claim that any particular type of noise is the "main source" of noise in images from digital cameras in general, because noise in images is totally dependent on the design of the camera, & can vary not only from brand to brand, & camera to camera, but between different modes or settings on the same camera, & even at different ambient temperatures.
> Roger's opinion on this is incorrect, IMO, and I have >proven it by quantizing RAW data myself. That statement makes no sense whatsoever. There is no way in the world that you have actually 'quantised' image data from a real camera yourself, unless you have actually built your own analog to digital conversion system & wired it up to the image sensor of the camera. Presumably, you're talking about processing RAW files, which have already been processed by the sense amps, quantised by the ADC in the camera, then twiddled by the firmware. If so, that is totally irrelevant to the topic of small photodiodes vs large photodiodes, & tells you nothing whatever about the noise levels on either.
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Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 21 Mar 2007 03:47 GMT > IOW, you can turn the last four > least significant bits of any ISO 1600 from a current Canon into zeros, > and gain only a tad of noise, and still be quite a bit cleaner than ISO > 100 under-exposed by 4 stops, even though they are both quantized exactly > the same. Correcting the half truths is getting tiring.
Here is a demo: See figure 9 at: http://www.clarkvision.com/photoinfo/night.and.low.light.photography
Here is the original raw data converted linearly in IP, scaled by 128: http://www.clarkvision.com/photoinfo/night.and.low.light.photography/nightscene_ linear_JZ3F7340_times128-876px.jpg
Now here is the same data with the bottom 4 bits truncated: http://www.clarkvision.com/photoinfo/night.and.low.light.photography/nightscene_ linear_JZ3F7340-lose-4bits_times128-876px.jpg
You lose quite a bit in my opinion. It would be a disaster in astrophotography.
Roger
John Sheehy - 22 Mar 2007 01:06 GMT > Here is a demo: See figure 9 at: > http://www.clarkvision.com/photoinfo/night.and.low.light.photography
> Here is the original raw data converted linearly in IP, scaled by 128: > http://www.clarkvision.com/photoinfo/night.and.low.light.photography/ni > ghtscene_linear_JZ3F7340_times128-876px.jpg
> Now here is the same data with the bottom 4 bits truncated: > http://www.clarkvision.com/photoinfo/night.and.low.light.photography/ni > ghtscene_linear_JZ3F7340-lose-4bits_times128-876px.jpg
> You lose quite a bit in my opinion. > It would be a disaster in astrophotography. *You* do. I never have the blackpoint drift up like that when I truncate/quantize data; the effect is usually subtle. The overall intensity should remain almost the same. You are doing something wrong, I think.
Part of the problem might be that you are using tools that hide what they're really doing from you. I see references to "linear conversions" in your texts. You should do all the steps yourself, under your control, so you know *exactly* what is happening to the data at every step of the way. IRIS, DCRAW with the "-D" parameter are the only, and loading the RAW images from un-compressed DNGs are the only ways I know of that get you the real RAW data. (MaximDL, as well, I think).
Note, I didn't say that an ISO 1600 suffers nothing at all from 8-bit quantization; I said that it is still better than ISO 100, pushed to the same EI.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 22 Mar 2007 04:02 GMT >> Here is a demo: See figure 9 at: >> http://www.clarkvision.com/photoinfo/night.and.low.light.photography [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > quantization; I said that it is still better than ISO 100, pushed to the > same EI. Well, lets look at this another way. Go to: http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/dynamicrange2
4 bits is DN = 16 in the 0 to 4092 range. In 16-bit data file, that would be 16*16 = 256.
Now go to Figure 7 and draw a vertical line at 256 on the horizontal axis. Now note all the data below that line that you cut off. Now go to Figure 8b and draw a vertical line at 4 stops, and note all the data you cut off. Now go to Figure 9D and draw the vertical line at 256 and note all the data you cut off. (Note too how noisy the 8-bit jpeg data are.)
Pretty obvious.
Roger
John Sheehy - 24 Mar 2007 15:00 GMT > Well, lets look at this another way. Go to: > http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/dynamicrange2 [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > note all the data you cut off. (Note too how noisy the > 8-bit jpeg data are.) You can't just divide by 16, to drop 4 LSBs. 0 through 15 become 0. You have to add 8 first, and then divide by 16 (integer division), then multiply by 16, and subtract the 8, to get something similar to what you would get if the ADC were actually doing the quantization. The ADC is working with analog noise that dithers the results; you lose that benefit" when you quantize data that is already quantized. You won't notice the offset when the full range of DNs is high, but for one where a small range of DN is used for full scene DR, it is essential. I am amazed that you didn't stop and say to yourself, "I must have done something wrong" when you saw your quantized image go dark. That's what I said to myself, the first time I did it. I looked at the histograms, and saw the shift, and realized that an offset is needed unless the offset is a very small number relative to the full range of the scene.
In the case of the mkIII image at 14, 12, 11, and 10 bits in another post, I used PS' Levels, because it simplifies the process, by doing the necessary offset to keep the distribution of tones constant.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 25 Mar 2007 15:04 GMT >> Well, lets look at this another way. Go to: >> http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/dynamicrange2 [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > multiply by 16, and subtract the 8, to get something similar to what you > would get if the ADC were actually doing the quantization. Fair enough, I'll redo the test.
Here is the full set of images:
See figure 9 at: http://www.clarkvision.com/photoinfo/night.and.low.light.photography
Here is the original raw data converted linearly in IP, scaled by 128: http://www.clarkvision.com/photoinfo/night.and.low.light.photography/nightscene_ linear_JZ3F7340_times128-876px.jpg
Now here is the same data with the bottom 4 bits truncated: http://www.clarkvision.com/photoinfo/night.and.low.light.photography/nightscene_ linear_JZ3F7340-lose-4bits_times128-876px.jpg
Now here is the same data with the bottom 4 bits truncated, doing nearest integer using your formula. While subjectively it looks a little better, it has still lost a lot of image detail compared to the full 12-bits: http://www.clarkvision.com/photoinfo/night.and.low.light.photography/nightscene_ linear_JZ3F7340-lose-4bits-nearestint_times128-876px.jpg
You lose quite a bit in my opinion. It would be a disaster in astrophotography.
Roger
The ADC is
> working with analog noise that dithers the results; you lose that > benefit" when you quantize data that is already quantized. You won't [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > post, I used PS' Levels, because it simplifies the process, by doing the > necessary offset to keep the distribution of tones constant. Lionel - 25 Mar 2007 17:00 GMT >> Well, lets look at this another way. Go to: >> http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/dynamicrange2 [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >You can't just divide by 16, to drop 4 LSBs. Of course you can.
> 0 through 15 become 0. You >have to add 8 first, and then divide by 16 (integer division), then >multiply by 16, and subtract the 8, to get something similar to what you >would get if the ADC were actually doing the quantization. What a complete load of crap. Have you *ever* worked with ADC's in your life? It sounds like you might be confusing 2 quadrant ADC's that're used for audio applications with single quadrant ADC's that're used for this sort of device.
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teflon - 26 Mar 2007 03:48 GMT On 25/3/07 17:00, in article lk6d03dsb6vpa4r2qkgv2k6o6mapqnog22@4ax.com,
>>> Well, lets look at this another way. Go to: >>> http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/dynamicrange2 [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > for audio applications with single quadrant ADC's that're used for > this sort of device. 'Dropping LSB's'? 'Quadrant ADC's'? My brain's fallen out.
Are there any real photographers here?
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 26 Mar 2007 06:37 GMT > Are there any real photographers here? How's this? http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries
David J Taylor - 26 Mar 2007 08:35 GMT []
> 'Dropping LSB's'? 'Quadrant ADC's'? My brain's fallen out. > > Are there any real photographers here? Obviously there are, and ones who wish to have a better understanding of the equipment used. If you are uncertain about terms, why not ask or look them up?
David
Lionel - 26 Mar 2007 09:18 GMT >[] >> 'Dropping LSB's'? 'Quadrant ADC's'? My brain's fallen out. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >the equipment used. If you are uncertain about terms, why not ask or look >them up? And if he doesn't care about the topic, nobody's forcing him to read this thread.
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Lionel - 18 Mar 2007 03:03 GMT >> Think Canon high ISO. Less noise in electrons, at higher gain. That's >> real world. The small-pixel cameras tend to have very good read noise at [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > (for other readers, unity gain ISO is the ISO where 1 electron > equals one bit in the A/D converter) Correction: You mean one count, not one bit.
>If you want to try the experiment with current cameras, use an >ISO where the DSLR is not electronics limited, like ISO 800. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >How much worse depends on a number of factors, all quite predictable >if we knew what the parameters were (like the fill factors). Exactly.
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Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 18 Mar 2007 20:50 GMT >>> Think Canon high ISO. Less noise in electrons, at higher gain. That's >>> real world. The small-pixel cameras tend to have very good read noise at [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Correction: You mean one count, not one bit. By 1-bit I implied the least significant bit. In remote sensing science, this is called a BN (Data Number). Roger
>> If you want to try the experiment with current cameras, use an >> ISO where the DSLR is not electronics limited, like ISO 800. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Exactly. Lionel - 18 Mar 2007 23:20 GMT >>>> Think Canon high ISO. Less noise in electrons, at higher gain. That's >>>> real world. The small-pixel cameras tend to have very good read noise at [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >By 1-bit I implied the least significant bit. Yes, I know, but lots of people reading this group won't know that, & will confuse it with an output bit.
> In remote sensing science, >this is called a BN (Data Number). I'm used to more mundane ADC applications, where we refer to LSBs or counts. ;^)
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Doug McDonald - 17 Mar 2007 17:53 GMT > How much of an issue is fill factor _in the presence of microlenses_? I'd > think that microlenses would mean that fill factor in the silicon itself is > much less of an issue. (This is the main issue I'd like to see addressed.) I think that that depends on the f/number of the camera lens. At f/1.2 microlenses that really help are going to be hard to fabricate (they reach their ultimate limit at about f/0.25 using lenses of diamond or cubic zirconia).
Do current microlenses function fully if the light is f/1.2 coming in (and, at the corners, at an angle.)?
Doug McDonald
John Sheehy - 17 Mar 2007 06:10 GMT > It does, because of the fill-factor problem. I've gone into this in > more detail in my reply to another of your posts in this thread, but [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > electronics, & there's no longer any room left for the actual > photodiodes. The Panasonic FZ50 collects as many photons at ISO 100 saturation, per unit of sensor area, as the 1DmkII. This is a real-world fact, that shows that your concern is pretty much a boogey-man story, in the range of current pixel sizes. And, even when miniaturization of the sensel *does* lead to photon loss per unit of area, it takes a huge difference in photon collection to make a difference in shot noise. Shot noise is not proportional to signal; it's proportional to its square root.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 19 Mar 2007 05:07 GMT > The Panasonic FZ50 collects as many photons at ISO 100 saturation, per unit > of sensor area, as the 1DmkII. This is a real-world fact, that shows that [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > collection to make a difference in shot noise. Shot noise is not > proportional to signal; it's proportional to its square root. There is a simple reason for this "real-world fact." The 1D Mark II is a CMOS sensor; CMOS sensors have lower fill factors than CCDs. The FZ50 is a CCD, which generally have larger fill factors. You are comparing apples and oranges. The on pixel support electronics is why there are no small pixel size CMOS sensors, because once pixel size drops below about 4 microns, the active area drops too much. CCD encounter similar problems around 2 microns, only due to the inactive area between pixels.
Roger
John Sheehy - 20 Mar 2007 00:38 GMT >> The Panasonic FZ50 collects as many photons at ISO 100 saturation, >> per unit of sensor area, as the 1DmkII. This is a real-world fact, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > factors than CCDs. The FZ50 is a CCD, which generally have > larger fill factors. This I know.
> You are comparing apples and > oranges. I am not "comparing" in the context you suggest. I am simply trying to demonstrate the fact that small pixels are not necessarily the bad thing they are made out to be by big pixel fanatics. Maybe you're not concerned, but I get very concerned about false information circulating as fact, or half-truths taken out of context like an evangelist quoting scripture for his own gain. There is a growing cult of people who believe that small pixels can not give good image quality, and your work is the most often-quoted Bible.
> The on pixel support electronics is why > there are no small pixel size CMOS sensors, because once > pixel size drops below about 4 microns, the active area > drops too much. CCD encounter similar problems around > 2 microns, only due to the inactive area between pixels. You don't need all of the amplification levels, though. If the pixel pitch halves to 4u, you can eliminate the ISO 100- and ISO 200-related circuit components. When you go smaller yet, there may be no more benefit in Canon's current technology at all. What if you could read 2u pixels with 4800 photons each with a single amplification with only 1.5 electrons of read noise; what would be the point in having bigger pixels, especially if you had the option of the firmware downsampling or binning for you, if you didn't want all that data?
My main concern is that companies don't want to be bothered with higher pixel densities in DSLRs, and big-pixel fanaticism is exactly what they want people to believe, so that they don't have to move in the right direction for maximum IQ, or niche products. AFAIAC, there are huge gaps in current offerings. Where is the camera that takes EOS lenses that has a small sensor like the one in the FZ50? Imagine an FZ50 sensor capturing the focal plane of a 500mm or 600mm f/4L IS! Imagine a more professional version with lower read noise. No bokeh-destroying TCs necessary; you can leave them home and get as much or better detail, with better bokeh.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 22 Mar 2007 04:19 GMT >>> The Panasonic FZ50 collects as many photons at ISO 100 saturation, >>> per unit of sensor area, as the 1DmkII. This is a real-world fact, [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > believe that small pixels can not give good image quality, and your work > is the most often-quoted Bible. Me too!
>> The on pixel support electronics is why >> there are no small pixel size CMOS sensors, because once [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > pitch halves to 4u, you can eliminate the ISO 100- and ISO 200-related > circuit components. This makes NO sense. As pixel size and active area drops, the unity gain ISO drops. You don't need ISOs above unity gain ISO, so it is the high ISOs that are not needed. The low ISOs give you the full well range of the sensor. Dropping those low ISOs and you just lose dynamic range, which you've already reduced by using a smaller pixel..
> When you go smaller yet, there may be no more > benefit in Canon's current technology at all. What if you could read 2u > pixels with 4800 photons each with a single amplification with only 1.5 > electrons of read noise; what would be the point in having bigger pixels, > especially if you had the option of the firmware downsampling or binning > for you, if you didn't want all that data? The problem with this scenario are multiple: 1) reduced dynamic range. 2) you want many more pixels, so the readout is slower and you lose frames per second. You lose with fast action photography. 3) you lose high ISO performance.
> My main concern is that companies don't want to be bothered with higher > pixel densities in DSLRs, and big-pixel fanaticism is exactly what they > want people to believe, so that they don't have to move in the right > direction for maximum IQ, or niche products. Image quality is more than just megapixels. Signal-to-noise ratio is very important, and that is what you are sacrificing with smaller pixels. However, the one thing you have not thought that does change the equation is QE. If QE could be increased along with maintaining full well with smaller pixels, then we would have a winner. See below.
> AFAIAC, there are huge gaps > in current offerings. Where is the camera that takes EOS lenses that has > a small sensor like the one in the FZ50? Imagine an FZ50 sensor > capturing the focal plane of a 500mm or 600mm f/4L IS! No, it would not be very good. See below.
> Imagine a more > professional version with lower read noise. No bokeh-destroying TCs > necessary; you can leave them home and get as much or better detail, with > better bokeh. The factors in image quality include resolution, and signal-to-noise ratio. To get that wonderful quality with current QE and full wells gives the sweet spot of about 6 to 8 microns. And that sweet spot also corresponds to the sweet spot in 35mm camera lenses. WE ARE AT THE SWEET SPOT TODAY!
If you changed DSLR sensors to 4 microns, to give good image quality, you would need to maintain full wells, increase QE by 3x (basically to max: >90% QE), and improve all the lenses by about 2x in MTF response. While all of this might happen, and I hope it does, there are no indications of sensors that meet that criteria, and lens designs for that improved MTF would not be cheap.
Its nice to dream of the future, but don't forget we have wonderful performance right now. I imagine a 30D class full frame sensor, about 22 megapixels, 5 frames per second. That should come out soon. ;-)
Roger
John Sheehy - 09 Mar 2007 02:30 GMT > In the 5D and 1Dmk2, the ISO 100 read noise looks to me to be > dominated by quantization errors; The standard deviation of an ISO 100 blackframe is about 1.26 ADU on a mkII, and 1.97 on a 5D (it's 0.9 ADU on the Pentax K10D). These are all quite a bit more than what is possible with quantization, and the ranges near black are where quantization is potentially most harmful.
With the 14-bit 1DmkIII, the blackframe read noise at ISO 100 is 4.88 ADU; not an improvement over the 1.26 of the 12-bit successor, and a hint that the mkII's 1.26 has nothing much to do with posterization (and how do you posterize black, anyway?).
> the bit depth of the A/D converter > is two bits shy of what's needed, maybe three. It's definitely shy of what is usable within the sensor wells. We really can't tell at what point in the signal chain the high read noise (in electrons) comes from, but it is really there, so even if sensor wells are only limited by shot noise (and dark current noise, when applicable), the *camera* is still subjected to high read noise. The blackframe read noise at ISO 100 is generally in the 20 to 30 electron range. That means that two neighboring pixels could be as much as 100 electrons off, as far as their recorded and real differences are concerned.
> The dynamic range at > ISO 100 to 400 is simply consistent with a 12-bit A/D converter. There really aren't that many samples of unique camera arrangements where you can observe one effect in isolation. We are victims of all kinds of coincidences in our observations.
Anyway, regardless whether its the ADC, or the first amplifiers, the camera, somewhere, is picking up tremendous read noise, as measured in relative signal electrons, at the lowest ISOs electrons. You don't need more than 12 bits to get more DR out of these cameras; you need less read noise. You want just enough read noise to dither away any posterization. There is *far* more than what is needed for that in current cameras.
> It's > only at ISO 800 and above that other noise sources intrude. > > That's why the D200 has the same ISO 100 dynamic range as the 5D. Does it? Most of the tests I've seen are about the RAW conversions, which tend to equalize things a bit; not RAW comparisons. The D200 may have less shot noise, but I think it also has more read noise, IIRC, and stronger banding noise (horizontal, not vertical as in those high- contrast edge problems), hidden by even stronger 2D random read noise. Nikon also clips their RAW data at the blackpoint; not a very good idea if you're really interested in clean deep shadows.
>> Shot noise is >> the least of our digital imaging problems, IMO, especially with large [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > http://www.pbase.com/davidjl/image/75374090/original There's a strong horizontal banding component there. Load it into photoshop, and open the motion blur tool. Set it to 0 degrees, and 50 pixels. Then, change it to 90 degrees. See the difference? The horizontal blur creates much stronger horizontal streaks than the vertical does vertical, because there is horizontal streaking in the image, the pattern of which is masked by the more random 2D noise, but the strength of which is not.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< acl - 09 Mar 2007 02:45 GMT > which tend to equalize things a bit; not RAW comparisons. The D200 may > have less shot noise, but I think it also has more read noise, IIRC, and > stronger banding noise (horizontal, not vertical as in those high- > contrast edge problems), hidden by even stronger 2D random read noise. Where did you see this horizontal banding? I've never seen anything like that in my raw files, only vertical bands, eg here: http://www.pbase.com/al599/image/74719850 I once took a black frame, dumped the data using dcraw, and then looked at the fourier transform of parts of the frame, and saw a smoothed spike indicating patterns periodic in the horizontal direction (ie vertical banding). But that was what I was looking for so maybe I missed something. Or maybe it is dcraw. I don't know. So, how did you see horizontal banding?
> Nikon also clips their RAW data at the blackpoint; not a very good idea > if you're really interested in clean deep shadows. John Sheehy - 09 Mar 2007 03:11 GMT
> Where did you see this horizontal banding? It was not readily visible in the D200, for the reason I mentioned. The ratio of 2D noise to 1D noise determines how well you can see the 1D noise. I extracted the 1D components from the image, from an unilluminated area, and the intensity was actually greater than with my Canon 20D, which has a reputation for banding at high ISOs. I subsequently did the same for several cameras by various manufacturers, and found that they all had banding, and all had stronger banding than the 20D, but their 2D random noise was so much more so that the banding was masked.
By banding, I mean offsets in the RAW data on a line-by-line basis, visible or not. Even when banding is not visible as "banding", it's removal still makes the remaining noise look much more natural (except, of course, for the inherent pixel grid of both the signal and noise), despite the fact that the standard deviation may drop by less than 1%. Any patterned or 1D noise, is much more destructive per unit of standard deviation, than 2D random noise. Even binning and downsampling fail to reduce 1D noise at the rate it reduces 2D noise; same for viewing full-res images from a distance, or printed small; the lines do not fade away, whether they are perceived as lines or not.
I've taken blackframes from my Canons and binned them down to ridiculous levels, and all that remains is horizontal and vertical lines with no 2D random noise left; the bands are resilient.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< acl - 09 Mar 2007 12:26 GMT > > Where did you see this horizontal banding? > > It was not readily visible in the D200, for the reason I mentioned. The > ratio of 2D noise to 1D noise determines how well you can see the 1D noise. Well yes, but i can clearly see vertical bands and cannot see horizontal bands at all (and not the high-contrast business, it's patterned noise).
> I extracted the 1D components from the image, from an unilluminated area, > and the intensity was actually greater than with my Canon 20D, which has a > reputation for banding at high ISOs. I subsequently did the same for > several cameras by various manufacturers, and found that they all had > banding, and all had stronger banding than the 20D, but their 2D random > noise was so much more so that the banding was masked. Well ok I'll look again. I will be surprised if there's are horizontal banding and I've misses it, but it could be there.
> By banding, I mean offsets in the RAW data on a line-by-line basis, visible > or not. Even when banding is not visible as "banding", it's removal still [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > or printed small; the lines do not fade away, whether they are perceived as > lines or not. Yes, I've noticed the same thing.
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 09 Mar 2007 03:29 GMT >>I don't see how the 1Dmk3 does better given the various observations >>that the 20D's low light performance is limited basically by photon [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > noises (both blackframe offset, and scalar illumination noises), which have > much more visual power than the randomly-distibuted poisson shot noise. Photon noise has a unique signature: it follows a square root dependence on signal strength. You may not believe my results, but then how do you explain all the other testing from the sensor manufacturers, university testing, and other amateur astronomers testing that come to the same conclusion and get the same results? What noise source would you advocate that shows a square root dependence? Why would the expected photon noise agree with derived quantum efficiencies that agree with published QE levels?
Sure at the very low end, read noise, A/D quantization and pattern noise is present, and that is also shown in the online test reports, but that is usually below the level most people work at, and it is also easily calibrated out for those who want to work at the lower levels (e.g. astrophotographers. The implications of the 1D Mark III specs imply significant improvements in this area too.
> That said, Canon does claim less wasted space on the sensor (higher fill > factor) over the mkII, and greater quantum efficiency, I didn't see any claim in increased quantum efficiency. Efficiency due to fill factor and micro-lens improvements perhaps, but not device quantum efficiency (although I would be happy if I'm wrong here).
For those just joining, some relevant references on the subject: http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/index.html#sensor_analysis
Summary of data from many sources and also many references: http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/digital.sensor.performance.summary
Roger
ray - 08 Mar 2007 17:38 GMT >> >>>>> I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the >> >>>>> best DSLR for this purpose? [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > have seen of even ISO 400 film have looked pretty bad, I don't want to > even think about how bad ISO 1600 color print film would be. That's another point that the OP failed to mention: is the ultimate objective to have an image in the computer to manipulate or just to have some good prints? That, IMHO, would make a difference.
> And the DSLRs just keep getting better, our 20D does very well at 1600 > and is very usable at 3200, but I have seen test shots from the 1D > mark 3 at 6400 that just blow me away. > > Scott Scott W - 08 Mar 2007 17:48 GMT > That's another point that the OP failed to mention: is the ultimate > objective to have an image in the computer to manipulate or just to have > some good prints? That, IMHO, would make a difference. My own experience has been that I can get far better prints by scanning my own negatives and printing from the image files rather then just sending the film to a lab.
Scott
Floyd L. Davidson - 08 Mar 2007 22:14 GMT >>>> Digital is significantly better at higher ISOs. >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >what might be achieved under optimal conditions rather than addressing >high ISO - low light action shots. I'm still not convinced. You do have to actually *read* them, not just scan them. The do each address it specifically, though some in less detail than others. The point in the number of cites was merely to demonstrate there is a consensus. For specifics you can't do better than the discussion by Roger N. Clarke.
Regardless, you've made it quite clear that you are not interested in definitive analysis of the question; and won't accept anything that disturbs your current bias.
I don't have the time to waste with detailed discussion of the above reference under those circumstances.
 Signature Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
Lionel - 08 Mar 2007 23:11 GMT >> I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the >> best DSLR for this purpose? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >film. I don't think the practical ISO ranges available on DSLRs yet match >what is available with film. ROTFL! Nice troll, Ray.
The EOS 10D produces far better images at ISO 1600 than any ISO 800 colour print film I've ever seen, & the EOS 1Dmk2 is better at ISO 1600 than any ISO 400 colour print film I've ever seen.
At ISO 800 & upwards, the better DLSRs have been thrashing film for a long time.
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Tzortzakakis Dimitrios - 07 Mar 2007 16:23 GMT > I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the > best DSLR for this purpose? > Thanks, On my film days, I used some 400 ASA film for such an occasion, with my Nikkor 50 mm 1.4 (either delta or T-Max).Now I use a P&S, and besides I was a Nikon fan, canon cameras are generally very good.
-- Tzortzakakis Dimitrios major in electrical engineering mechanized infantry reservist dimtzort AT otenet DOT gr
David Dyer-Bennet - 07 Mar 2007 16:44 GMT > I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the > best DSLR for this purpose? Well, any of the Nikon or Canon offerings are going to be significantly better than what you're using now (I've read ahead some).
On the other hand, many of the good choices blow your $1500 max budget *before* buying a lens. By a factor of about 5, in some cases. At that budget, anything remotely resembling the "best" the market currently has to offer is completely off the radar. Some of the lenses you might want to buy for this work blow your $1500 budget all by themselves.
Sounds like you're talking bright home / average office brightness levels, rather than really low light levels. And people in normal life, rather than high-speed sports and such.
I would suggest that you'll be best off with a bottom-end DSLR from Canon or Nikon plus the best fast lenses you can fit into the budget. Nothing slower than f/2.8 need apply. You want at least one at f/1.4 or faster, probably either a 50mm or the Sigma 30mm. And you still won't be able to get what you really need for $1500. You also need the good flash, in Nikon the SB-800, I forget the Canon equivalent model. The Nikon flash system is generally thought better than the Canon, the Canon noise at high ISOs is generally thought lower than the Nikon in comparable cameras. The Canon fast lenses seem to be cheaper, but on Nikon you can get cheap manual focus fast lenses and still use them on the DSLRs. It's all a bunch of tradeoffs.
But your $1500 just isn't going to cut it with anything other than fairly blatantly compromised equipment.
UC - 07 Mar 2007 18:12 GMT > I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the > best DSLR for this purpose? > Thanks, > Yip None. You need light to do photography, you moron.
David Dyer-Bennet - 07 Mar 2007 18:31 GMT >> I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the >> best DSLR for this purpose? >> Thanks, >> Yip > > None. You need light to do photography, you moron. Troll.
Frank ess - 07 Mar 2007 19:07 GMT >>> I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the >>> best DSLR for this purpose? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Troll. Troll nourisher.
Mark² - 08 Mar 2007 05:33 GMT >>> I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the >>> best DSLR for this purpose? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Troll. In my browser, this particular troll is only an echo... :)
 Signature Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at: www.pbase.com/markuson
UC - 08 Mar 2007 17:53 GMT > >> I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the > >> best DSLR for this purpose? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Troll. Moron.
Adsense-Support - 19 Mar 2007 02:25 GMT If more than 3 people even use the internet or especially usenet I would be surprised until you know what its like to be me you havent earned the right to talk to me let alone insult me.
http://en.mediaopedia.org/2006_11_21_history.html - Monday High Noon brokers Billionaire showdown eliminates Captain Kirk and takes out the Fed Right out of the picture signalling a solution to lack of a 10-k filing. Fact is we are broke..... Bankruptcy is in the near future for google with all the impending lawsuits and lack of " Real " advertisers. As the fed signals disgust with google time to jump ship. Either way I am telling you how it is, why would you want to invest in a company that is un-profitable? Every Jew Alive knows if you give a dollar and make more its blessed thou are and righteous in what your doing. I am not picking faiths here I just want a jew to do my happy dance.
Why do I hate google? Hate is a strong word, I don't hate google, I had many trys at trying to make google profitable and I failed every attempt. Lack of real advertisers, honest people working for them and a honest click calculating system.
Finally the truth is out there........
Now google can't.... shelter money, time to sink or swim, float like a butterfly and sting like a bee, be a pig about what you take the time to help strength what yahoo and msn are doing. Amazon isn't going to carry the bills google is fronting baby ,,, get out while you can baby, comcast did it, you can too.
Floyd L. Davidson - 07 Mar 2007 18:29 GMT >I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the >best DSLR for this purpose? Either Canon or Nikon will do fine, as well as perhaps others.
The camera itself isn't really that important, compared to lense selection. (I use Nikon equipment, so that is what I'll discuss specifically, but the basic selection process would be the same for any brand of camera.)
The trick is to figure out which lenses you actually *need*. Consider that there are inexpensive 20mm f/2.8 plus 50 and 85mm f/1.8 lenses; and there are 30mm, 50mm and 85mm f/1.4 lenses which are not so inexpensive.
If your budget allows, the f/1.4 lenses are definitely better, but if the budget is tight it might be necessary to select just one of the f/1.8 lenses. (Note that for Nikon, the 50mm f/1.8 is very good and very inexpensive.)
For a general purpose lense, Nikon has an 18-70mm zoom lense that is wonderful, but far too slow for "low light conditions".
I would consider any of the low end Nikon DSLRs, with the 18-70mm zoom as a kit lense; then look on eBay to find the fast fixed focal length lense that suits your style.
 Signature Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
Lionel - 08 Mar 2007 22:59 GMT >I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the >best DSLR for this purpose? Canon EOS 1Dmk2, or the new 1Dmk3, if you are willing to wait for it.
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C J Campbell - 13 Mar 2007 15:11 GMT > I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the > best DSLR for this purpose? > Thanks, > Yip For your budget, any of the cameras that handle well -- a D40 or Rebel will work nicely, especially if you get a fast 50mm lens.
If you want to use flash, get a real flash unit.
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Pat - 15 Mar 2007 18:10 GMT > I have to shoot action photos in low light conditions. What is the > best DSLR for this purpose? > Thanks, > Yip At the risk of pissing off all of the "purists" out there, you might want to consider the original Canon Digital Rebel (the good old 300). That would get you a useable body for not much money. Then add the Russian operating system to get to ISO of 3200. It's a bit grainy but sometimes grainy is better than nothing.
Then, with your "extra" money get a Canon 580 flash (or two) and a "wedding bracket" to avoid red eye and limit shadow. Skip the kit lens and get the Tokina F2 (or f2.8) zoom. it is something like a 28 to 70mm.
That would get you a servicable package within you price range.
There are lots of situation where this wouldn't be the right setup, but for what you are describing it will work just fine.
Good luck with it.
John Sheehy - 16 Mar 2007 18:15 GMT > At the risk of pissing off all of the "purists" out there, you might > want to consider the original Canon Digital Rebel (the good old 300). > That would get you a useable body for not much money. Then add the > Russian operating system to get to ISO of 3200. It's a bit grainy but > sometimes grainy is better than nothing. ISO 3200 on the 10D and the 300D with the hack is nothing but ISO 1600 metered for a stop of under-exposure.
The 10D and 300D are worse performers at high ISO than any of the APS-sized Canon DSLRs to come after them. The 10D/300D have about 4x the read noise in the deepest shadows as the 20D and 30D and more than 2x the XTi pushed to 3200.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Pat - 16 Mar 2007 19:12 GMT > > At the risk of pissing off all of the "purists" out there, you might > > want to consider the original Canon Digital Rebel (the good old 300). [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > John P Sheehy <J...@no.komm> > ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Yeah, and .....
The OP's best bet would be a Hasselblad, a few banks of soft boxes, and a crew of gaffers. But, like your ideas, it doesn't take into account the OP's budget. You want to start with a $1200 camera when the persons budget is $1000. Ain't going to happen.
So if you don't like my idea -- which I'm not sure I even like my idea -- what dSLR would you suggest for the OP with a $1000 budget (don't forget sales tax and shipping)?
John Sheehy - 16 Mar 2007 20:38 GMT
> So if you don't like my idea -- which I'm not sure I even like my idea > -- what dSLR would you suggest for the OP with a $1000 budget (don't > forget sales tax and shipping)? A used 20D or a used Rebel XT.
With lenses, might run a little bit more than a used 300D, but will be far faster in operation, and better in low light. Sometimes it's worth going a little over budget to get something a notch or two better.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Pat - 16 Mar 2007 21:37 GMT > > So if you don't like my idea -- which I'm not sure I even like my idea > > -- what dSLR would you suggest for the OP with a $1000 budget (don't [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > John P Sheehy <J...@no.komm> > ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< I don't necessarily disagree with that, but then $1000 would really be the budget then, would it.
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