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Photo Forum / General Photo Topics / General Topics / April 2006

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FOVEON: There is no substitute

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Gary - 25 Apr 2006 05:52 GMT
Why The X3 is Way Betterer

To capture the color that other image sensors miss, Foveon X3® direct
image sensors use three layers of pixels embedded in silicon. The
layers are positioned to take advantage of the fact that silicon
absorbs different wavelengths of light to different depths. The bottom
layer records red, the middle layer records green, and the top layer
records blue. Each stack of pixels directly records all of the light at
each point in the image.

Until now, all other image sensors have featured just one layer of
pixels, capturing just one color per point the image. To capture color,
the pixel sensors in CCD and CMOS image sensors are organized in a
grid, or mosaic, resembling a three-color checkerboard. Each pixel is
covered with a filter and records just one color-red, green, or blue.

That approach has inherent drawbacks, no matter how many pixels a
mosaic-based image sensor might contain. Since mosaic-based image
sensors capture only one-third of the color, complex processing is
required to interpolate the color they miss. Interpolation leads to
color artifacts and a loss of image detail. Blur filters must then be
used to reduce color artifacts. The use of blur filters adversely
affects  sharpness and resolution of the final image captured.

With its revolutionary process for capturing light, Foveon X3
technology never needs to compromise on quality, so you get sharper
pictures, truer colors, and fewer artifacts. And cameras equipped with
Foveon X3 technology do not have to rely on processing power to fill in
missing colors, reducing hardware requirements, simplifying designs and
minimizing lag time between one shot and the next.

Dollar for dollar, pixel for pixel, nothing compares to Foveon X3
technology.

http://www.foveon.com/article.php?a=69
Bob - 25 Apr 2006 06:37 GMT
"Gary" <gary.l.burnore@gmail.com>

You must be a very lonely person.
Darrell Larose - 25 Apr 2006 14:47 GMT
> "Gary" <gary.l.burnore@gmail.com>
>
> You must be a very lonely person.

Actually it's a troll with someone forging Burnore's name. Likely Steve
Giovanni aka George Preddy
RiceHigh - 25 Apr 2006 06:48 GMT
Why it haven't been popular if it is so good?

RiceHigh
http://www.geocities.com/ricehigh
Lionel - 25 Apr 2006 14:08 GMT
>Path: be01!atl-c01.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!atl-c05.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!postnews.google.com!j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
>From: "RiceHigh" <ricehigh@yahoo.com>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>References: <1145940749.281804.195940@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: 202.153.9.158

f.ck off, Bowtie.

>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>RiceHigh
>http://www.geocities.com/ricehigh
Signature

  W          
. | ,. w ,   "Some people are alive only because
 \|/  \|/     it is illegal to kill them."    Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

Ron Hunter - 25 Apr 2006 09:26 GMT
> Why The X3 is Way Betterer
>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
> http://www.foveon.com/article.php?a=69

Just one question.  If it is so superior, why doesn't the entire
industry adopt it?
Pete D - 25 Apr 2006 09:52 GMT
>> Dollar for dollar, pixel for pixel, nothing compares to Foveon X3
>> technology.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Just one question.  If it is so superior, why doesn't the entire industry
> adopt it?

Actually every camera manufacturer is now using the technology but are far
too embarrassed to tell us! ;-)
Peter A. Stavrakoglou - 25 Apr 2006 11:08 GMT
>> Why The X3 is Way Betterer
>>
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> Just one question.  If it is so superior, why doesn't the entire industry
> adopt it?

One reason for not adopting the technology is the huge investment that has
already been made in Beyer-sensor technology.
Bill Funk - 25 Apr 2006 18:06 GMT
>> Just one question.  If it is so superior, why doesn't the entire industry
>> adopt it?
>
>One reason for not adopting the technology is the huge investment that has
>already been made in Beyer-sensor technology.

How long does it take to recoup that investment?
New technology (*EXPENSIVE* new technology) is being implemented all
the time.
The Sigma SDx cameras haven't been barn-burners in the sales
department. The Foveon chip may or may not be the reason for that, but
the Foveon chip has been hitched to the Sigma cameras for better or
worse. The *impression* in the marketplace is that he Foveon chip is
the responsible factor.
Why would Canon (or any other mfgr) use a chip that has a bad stigma
attached?
Signature

Bill Funk
replace "g" with "a"

RichA - 25 Apr 2006 18:24 GMT
Eventually, something like Foveon will replace Beyer.  Why?  Because
the basic design
is much simpler, which generally means cheaper.  Foveon or similar
technology my be worthless right now, but give the engineers a few more
years.
y_p_w - 25 Apr 2006 19:19 GMT
> Eventually, something like Foveon will replace Beyer.  Why?  Because
> the basic design
> is much simpler, which generally means cheaper.  Foveon or similar
> technology my be worthless right now, but give the engineers a few more
> years.

The Bayer array is simpler to manufacture.  The sensor sites are
all placed at the surface, and each is covered by a color filter.

In concept the X3 sounds good.  It may even work out eventually.
I doubt it would be cheaper to produce.
g n p - 25 Apr 2006 11:50 GMT
Here we go again..............
Sigh....................
Plonk.
Lionel - 25 Apr 2006 14:10 GMT
>Path: be01!atl-c01.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!atl-c05.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!postnews.google.com!g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
>From: "Gary" <gary.l.burnore@gmail.com>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Message-ID: <1145940749.281804.195940@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.48.34.110

f.ck off, Bowtie.

>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>
>http://www.foveon.com/article.php?a=3D69
Signature

  W          
. | ,. w ,   "Some people are alive only because
 \|/  \|/     it is illegal to kill them."    Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

Darrell Larose - 25 Apr 2006 14:46 GMT
Why The X3 is Way Betterer

Dollar for dollar, pixel for pixel, nothing compares to Foveon X3
technology.

Why is it then that there hasn't been any new Foveon dSLR based product
since the Sigma SD10?
Randall Ainsworth - 26 Apr 2006 02:49 GMT
> Dollar for dollar, pixel for pixel, nothing compares to Foveon X3
> technology.

Pretty expensive for a 3.42MP kiddie toy.

> Why is it then that there hasn't been any new Foveon dSLR based product
> since the Sigma SD10?

Nobody wants to sell stuff that sucks?
Thomas T. Veldhouse - 26 Apr 2006 13:23 GMT
In rec.photo.digital Randall Ainsworth <rag@nospam.techline.com> wrote:

>> Dollar for dollar, pixel for pixel, nothing compares to Foveon X3
>> technology.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Nobody wants to sell stuff that sucks?

So what was the point of you making a comment at all ... insults?

Signature

Thomas T. Veldhouse
Key Fingerprint: 2DB9 813F F510 82C2 E1AE  34D0 D69D 1EDC D5EC AED1

mark - 26 Apr 2006 13:34 GMT
Randall Ainsworth schreef:

> > Dollar for dollar, pixel for pixel, nothing compares to Foveon X3
> > technology.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Nobody wants to sell stuff that sucks?

Hey Randall,

great to see you back!

Someone's recycling your previous post though...
Randall Ainsworth - 26 Apr 2006 14:06 GMT
> Hey Randall,
>
> great to see you back!
>
> Someone's recycling your previous post though...

I've been here...just haven't seen much interesting lately to comment
on.
Nigel Cummings - 25 Apr 2006 18:11 GMT
Any of the high end DSLR's irrespective of whatever image capturing device
they possess, will produce excellent photographs if used properly.
Perhaps people should go and take photographs rather than talk incessantly
about the brand and what is 'under the bonnet' of their DSLRs?

Why The X3 is Way Betterer

To capture the color that other image sensors miss, Foveon X3® direct
image sensors use three layers of pixels embedded in silicon. The
layers are positioned to take advantage of the fact that silicon
absorbs different wavelengths of light to different depths. The bottom
layer records red, the middle layer records green, and the top layer
records blue. Each stack of pixels directly records all of the light at
each point in the image.

Until now, all other image sensors have featured just one layer of
pixels, capturing just one color per point the image. To capture color,
the pixel sensors in CCD and CMOS image sensors are organized in a
grid, or mosaic, resembling a three-color checkerboard. Each pixel is
covered with a filter and records just one color-red, green, or blue.

That approach has inherent drawbacks, no matter how many pixels a
mosaic-based image sensor might contain. Since mosaic-based image
sensors capture only one-third of the color, complex processing is
required to interpolate the color they miss. Interpolation leads to
color artifacts and a loss of image detail. Blur filters must then be
used to reduce color artifacts. The use of blur filters adversely
affects  sharpness and resolution of the final image captured.

With its revolutionary process for capturing light, Foveon X3
technology never needs to compromise on quality, so you get sharper
pictures, truer colors, and fewer artifacts. And cameras equipped with
Foveon X3 technology do not have to rely on processing power to fill in
missing colors, reducing hardware requirements, simplifying designs and
minimizing lag time between one shot and the next.

Dollar for dollar, pixel for pixel, nothing compares to Foveon X3
technology.

http://www.foveon.com/article.php?a=69
Helen - 25 Apr 2006 21:14 GMT
>nothing compares to Foveon X3
>technology.

Which is why only one manufacturer - notable for manufacturing quite poor
lenses - has released a camera which uses this technology. (though I
understand that Polaroid, or someone who bought that name, produced a toy
thing with foveon in it.)

We may count ourselves fortunate that nothing compares to foveon technology,
and that proper digital cameras therefore use Bayer technology.  It's also
notable that sigma, at the recent PMA, had nothing new to show, and
therefore continue to hawk only their <4 MP playthings.
SMS - 25 Apr 2006 22:23 GMT
>> nothing compares to Foveon X3
>> technology.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> notable that sigma, at the recent PMA, had nothing new to show, and
> therefore continue to hawk only their <4 MP playthings.

Speaking of Foveon, I saw that the Polaroid X530 (1.5 megapixels) is
being sold at a few on-line retailers for $200. Of course they're
claiming that it's 4.5 megapixels, LOL. When it falls to around $50, it
might be an interesting toy.
y_p_w - 25 Apr 2006 22:34 GMT
> >> nothing compares to Foveon X3
> >> technology.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> claiming that it's 4.5 megapixels, LOL. When it falls to around $50, it
> might be an interesting toy.

I'm just wondering when the current incarnation of Preddy is going
to come back here and talk about how advanced the manufacturing
process is and that it packs the processing power equivalent of a
Pentium III.
John Francis - 25 Apr 2006 23:04 GMT
>Speaking of Foveon, I saw that the Polaroid X530 (1.5 megapixels) is
>being sold at a few on-line retailers for $200. Of course they're
>claiming that it's 4.5 megapixels, LOL. When it falls to around $50, it
>might be an interesting toy.

That's still pretty inoffensive marketing when compared to the sleazy
ads pushing the "10 Megapixel" Bell & Howell digital camera (which also
somehow claims to be able to store a large number of images (?160?) in
it's massive built-in 16MB of memory).
JSF - 26 Apr 2006 03:52 GMT
Why are these sooo good.
http://www.foveon.com/gallery.php

>>Speaking of Foveon, I saw that the Polaroid X530 (1.5 megapixels) is
>>being sold at a few on-line retailers for $200. Of course they're
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> somehow claims to be able to store a large number of images (?160?) in
> it's massive built-in 16MB of memory).
Skip M - 26 Apr 2006 05:47 GMT
> Why are these sooo good.
> http://www.foveon.com/gallery.php

Well, if you think those are good, it would explain a lot...Most that show
any detail show signs of oversharpening, and the others are lacking in
detail.

Signature

Skip Middleton
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com

SMS - 26 Apr 2006 07:04 GMT
>> Speaking of Foveon, I saw that the Polaroid X530 (1.5 megapixels) is
>> being sold at a few on-line retailers for $200. Of course they're
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> somehow claims to be able to store a large number of images (?160?) in
> it's massive built-in 16MB of memory).

Yes, the Bell and Howell marketing is probably the most offensive
marketing of any digital camera. I guess once it became okay to lie
about the number of pixels, there was no reason to not carry it even
further.
Bill - 26 Apr 2006 09:16 GMT
>>> Speaking of Foveon, I saw that the Polaroid X530 (1.5 megapixels) is
>>> being sold at a few on-line retailers for $200. Of course they're
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>about the number of pixels, there was no reason to not carry it even
>further.

Does this mean I can say my Canon XT has a 24.3 megapixel sensor?

:-)
JSF - 26 Apr 2006 14:04 GMT
>>> Speaking of Foveon, I saw that the Polaroid X530 (1.5 megapixels) is
>>> being sold at a few on-line retailers for $200. Of course they're
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> marketing of any digital camera. I guess once it became okay to lie about
> the number of pixels, there was no reason to not carry it even further.

And do the math on OK

2268x1512  Red pixel, Plus 2268x1512 Green Pixels, Plus 2268x1512 Blue
Pixels
= to 10,2876,48 Pixels.
a 2268x1512 pixel (full image from the 10.3 claimed
> megapixel) and I am left with a 3.4 megapixel image HOW?
Cynicor - 26 Apr 2006 17:05 GMT
>>>>Speaking of Foveon, I saw that the Polaroid X530 (1.5 megapixels) is
>>>>being sold at a few on-line retailers for $200. Of course they're
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
>>megapixel) and I am left with a 3.4 megapixel image HOW?

A D200 has 10.2 MP resolution. However, each of those pixels has CMYK
values. Therefore, it's really a 40.8 MP camera.
JSF - 27 Apr 2006 03:00 GMT
>>>>>Speaking of Foveon, I saw that the Polaroid X530 (1.5 megapixels) is
>>>>>being sold at a few on-line retailers for $200. Of course they're
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> A D200 has 10.2 MP resolution. However, each of those pixels has CMYK
> values. Therefore, it's really a 40.8 MP camera.

The D200 has  a 10.2 million pixel CCD sensor
Lets see, 2.55 mpixels for blue, 2.55mpixels for red, and 5.1 mpixels for
green, only adds totally up to 10.2 mpixels WOW.

CMYK does not come from one pixel , I wish it did .
Rooty - 26 Apr 2006 06:21 GMT
Excellent
I never knew anything of this before mosaic or otherwise
How would I make good of this?
Thanks Gary
Rooty
minoxidil - 26 Apr 2006 15:27 GMT
> Why The X3 is Way Betterer
Because it makes the digital sensor behave like a film.

>complex processing is
> required to interpolate the color they miss.

Interplation (either sinc or cubic) is not that difficult.
It is actually quite common and simple to overcame hardware
shortcomings with software.

thanks for the heads up...
 
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