Been thinking about storage devices myself of late and noticed a related
post or two about Vosonic and iPods for example. How reliable are they??
What sort of life can you expect from these things. If things go wrong,
what measures are there to recover information lost?
What is the best way to archive your images at the end of the day? CD or
DVD - single layer or dual DVD???
We all want our work to last the distance, but what does everyone here do??
Currently, I back up new images after I upload them onto my computer and
then after manipulation once more (call me paranoid....I can take it!!),
onto a DVD re-recordable. But when I go out into the field, it would be nice
to have a device which I can back up to and then clear my cards for further
use.....I take heaps of shots to fish out the best ones for use. Seeing as
I've just got into digital I'm interested in what all you guys do.
cheers
Jasen
Al Dykes - 26 Oct 2005 17:04 GMT
>Been thinking about storage devices myself of late and noticed a related
>post or two about Vosonic and iPods for example. How reliable are they??
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>cheers
>Jasen
Read about storage and lifetimes of CD and DVD media here;
http://www.itl.nist.gov/div895/carefordisc/CDandDVDCareandHandlingGuide.pdf
I'm in PC tech support and I've been watching reports of failures in
external hard disk backpack devices.
IMO the no-name stuff isn't ready for my data.
NTFS file systems are still closed to Microsoft. The Linux folks have
been trying to develip a full function NTFS driver and say they can't
until MS documents some of it's internals. Until then, Read-write
drivers for NTFS are not complete. Very large disks formatted with
NTFS in backpackes are IMO unusually risky hased on the failure
reports I see. Having a disk on a seperate power line also leaves you
open for power glitches that corrupt data.
If you have a name-brand backpack like Maxtor you're better off but I
would never make a backpack device the sole repository of important
files.
Per the NIST document, CDRs *can* be very reliable. That document is
2 years old and at the time there was still lots of change in the DVD
catagory but the handling instructions are good.
CD/DVD media has the advantage of being cheap and you can make several
copies and keep them at multiple locations.
I've been doing buisness continuity planning and data center
operation management for 30 years. Maybe I'm just an old phart.
My $0.02.

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Don't blame me. I voted for Gore.
Jasen - 26 Oct 2005 23:37 GMT
Thanks Al
> >Been thinking about storage devices myself of late and noticed a related
> >post or two about Vosonic and iPods for example. How reliable are they??
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Read about storage and lifetimes of CD and DVD media here;
http://www.itl.nist.gov/div895/carefordisc/CDandDVDCareandHandlingGuide.pdf
> I'm in PC tech support and I've been watching reports of failures in
> external hard disk backpack devices.
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> My $0.02.
rb - 27 Oct 2005 03:07 GMT
[snip]
> Per the NIST document, CDRs *can* be very reliable. That document is
> 2 years old and at the time there was still lots of change in the DVD
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> My $0.02.
Thanks for the link.
Out of interest, what brand and type of CD and DVD blank do you prefer
for archival purposes of five or more years?
cheers
rb
eawckyegcy@yahoo.com - 26 Oct 2005 20:45 GMT
Jasen probably trolls:
> [...]
A few moments at google reveals vast tracts of commentary, review, etc
on this subject. Try the query:
"storage device" photos
on google groups. Note that there is nothing special about photos --
many other areas (audio, video, literature) are experiencing ballooning
demands of storage (short and long term), and any solution for them is
just as good as for images. Bits are bits.
Basically, there isn't much more one can add to this well-trodden
subject, beyond, say, new product announcements. But those usually
appear, and are archived at, the Usual Websites.
Jasen - 26 Oct 2005 23:27 GMT
> Jasen probably trolls:
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> subject, beyond, say, new product announcements. But those usually
> appear, and are archived at, the Usual Websites.
No, I am not trolling. I simply asked a question.
But thankyou for answering nonetheless.
Bill Hilton - 26 Oct 2005 21:10 GMT
> Jasen writes ...
>
>Been thinking about storage devices myself of late ...How
>reliable are they??
Sooner or later they will fail ... I've seen up to 10 years MTBE data
for Seagate external drives but they could fail in 6 months too,
especially if you're traveling and they are subject to excess shock or
moisture (or theft).
>... when I go out into the field, it would be
>nice to have a device which I can back up to and then clear
>my cards for further use.
For most of my trips I take a laptop computer and a 2nd portable disk
with a card reader built in, like the Nixvue or Wolverine. I download
images to the laptop, make a quick edit to cull out what I can safely
cull, and write from the laptop to the 2nd disk. Then and only then
will I clear my CF cards. I can do this with a 2 GB card (~250 images)
in about 15-20 minutes, depending on how long I take editing.
I try to keep the computer and the disk in separate places, for example
the disk in the car or my photo jacket and the laptop in the hotel
room, so if one is stolen I still have backup. Some guys I am friends
with take a small 2nd disk without the card reader, which is lighter
and cheaper, but then they are screwed if something goes wrong with the
laptop (usually a busted screen when it's dropped, from what I've seen
thus far) while I can at least download the cards to my disks.
If I can't take a laptop (like on a recent camping trip to Alaska) I
take two portable drives, right now a 60 GB Nixvue and a 100 GB
Wolverine, and copy to both drives before clearing the card. I'm
getting an Epson P-4000 soon (80 GB version of the P-2000), which will
let me look at the images without a computer. I know all these devices
will fail one day (especially with the rigors of travel) but the odds
are very low that two of them will fail on the same trip.
>What is the best way to archive your images at the end of the day?
>CD or DVD - single layer or dual DVD???
Neither ... I use external USB or 1394 hard drives (5 at the moment),
you can get a 250 GB external for $125 on sale ... I keep one at home
and one in storage and rotate them every time I do a big shoot,
updating the RAW archives. Again, I know they will fail eventually but
odds are astronomical they'll both fail at the same time. By the time
one fails you'll find new ones with 4x the capacity at 1/4th the price
:)
Bill
Jasen - 26 Oct 2005 23:31 GMT
> > Jasen writes ...
> >
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>
> Bill
Thanks guys, I appreciate your answers. I like your thinking Bill about
using two drives.
I think I'll stick to backup using CD/DVD also, just in case!
(PeteCresswell) - 27 Oct 2005 00:26 GMT
Per Jasen:
>I think I'll stick to backup using CD/DVD also, just in case!
Good plan, but don't count on either being permanent. I've had CDs go south
after a year or two. There are differences in quality, based on the dye used
in the recording medium - but the ones that went on me were supposedly the "good
stuff".

Signature
PeteCresswell
Eugene - 27 Oct 2005 11:03 GMT
> Good plan, but don't count on either being permanent. I've had CDs go south
> after a year or two. There are differences in quality, based on the dye used
> in the recording medium - but the ones that went on me were supposedly the "good
> stuff".
Probably a good idea to use two different types. There'd be not much
benefit doing doubles if they're both the same type because more than
likely they'll both suffer the same fate.
Unspam - 27 Oct 2005 18:01 GMT
> Per Jasen:
>> I think I'll stick to backup using CD/DVD also, just in case!
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> "good
> stuff".
Buy archival discs, they have a black base and are more permanent.
microsnot - 30 Oct 2005 02:36 GMT
> Good plan, but don't count on either being permanent. I've had CDs go south
> after a year or two. There are differences in quality, based on the dye used
> in the recording medium - but the ones that went on me were supposedly the
> "good
> stuff".
To be extra safe. Don't ever write (even with DVD/CD markers) or print onto
the media.
microsnot - 30 Oct 2005 02:36 GMT
> For most of my trips I take a laptop computer and a 2nd portable disk
> with a card reader built in, like the Nixvue or Wolverine. I download
> images to the laptop, make a quick edit to cull out what I can safely
> cull, and write from the laptop to the 2nd disk. Then and only then
> will I clear my CF cards. I can do this with a 2 GB card (~250 images)
> in about 15-20 minutes, depending on how long I take editing.
I keep the laptop in the hotel room and carry around a iRiver H340 for
storage and MP3's. It only stores 40Gb (I keep 15Gb reserved for photos...
But can clear out more space if needed) but that is more than sufficient for
me. I can plug it straight into the camera or use a card reader with it, it
mounts them as a drive. When I get back to the hotel, I'll upload the photos
onto the laptop and burn a DVD copy or copy the files onto a 60Gb 2.5"
external HDD as well. I wouldn't carry around a 3.5" based external drive as
their heavy and generally require external power. Also, I 'believe' that
2.5" HDD can take more abuse. DVD copies go into the suitcase, H340 into my
carry-on backpack and Powerbook and external 2.5" HDD into the laptop bag.
I'd have to be pretty unlucky to damage or lose all three.
> Neither ... I use external USB or 1394 hard drives (5 at the moment),
> you can get a 250 GB external for $125 on sale ... I keep one at home
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> one fails you'll find new ones with 4x the capacity at 1/4th the price
> :)
When I get home, I store all the files onto my main box and back them up
onto external USB2 drives. Currently all drives are Western Digital or
Seagate. I will then make a backup of the photos onto another DVD (different
manufacturer/batch). So, I use 2 DVDs from different manufacturers and an
external HDD for backups.
(PeteCresswell) - 27 Oct 2005 00:26 GMT
Per Jasen:
>e all want our work to last the distance, but what does everyone here do??
>Currently, I back up new images after I upload them onto my computer and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>use.....I take heaps of shots to fish out the best ones for use. Seeing as
>I've just got into digital I'm interested in what all you guys do.
So far, I've toasted two iPods - so I wouldn't consider iPod a reliable medium
for storage.
I back up onto four USB-2 hard drives: one permanently attached to the sys, one
that I occasionally do a full backup to and keep in a closet, and two that are
designed tb portable that I alternate - shuttling them between home and work.
Now that I've broken down and bought a DVD drive, I'll probably do annual or
semiannual full backups to DVD and store those at a neighbor or relative's
house.

Signature
PeteCresswell
Jasen - 27 Oct 2005 02:49 GMT
> Per Jasen:
> >e all want our work to last the distance, but what does everyone here do??
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> semiannual full backups to DVD and store those at a neighbor or relative's
> house.
Good ideas, thanks Peter.
Jasen
Ron Hunter - 27 Oct 2005 09:49 GMT
> Been thinking about storage devices myself of late and noticed a related
> post or two about Vosonic and iPods for example. How reliable are they??
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> cheers
> Jasen
Well, you could just buy lots of cards. At current prices, storing the
data on cards is cheaper than buying 35mm film....

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Ron Hunter rphunter@charter.net
Eugene - 27 Oct 2005 10:34 GMT
> Been thinking about storage devices myself of late and noticed a related
> post or two about Vosonic and iPods for example. How reliable are they??
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> cheers
> Jasen
I use an X'S Drive II with a 20GB drive and I haven't had any problems
with it, except that it takes ages (around 15 minutes) to copy the
images off my 1GB card when it's full, but I think that's mostly because
the card itself is fairly slow.
There are situations where it would be really handy to be able to review
the images on the drive, but I've learned to work around that
limitation. I've started clearing the cards now as soon as I've backed
them up, because it's very easy to lose track of which cards have been
backed up and which haven't.
Brian - 27 Oct 2005 11:27 GMT
>Been thinking about storage devices myself of late and noticed a related
>post or two about Vosonic and iPods for example. How reliable are they??
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>cheers
>Jasen
It's best to write your camera photos to two disks as one disk could
get damaged. Use a good brand of disk. You might want to use a
different brand of disk for the second disk.
If you take a lot of photos and the file size of each photo is large
then writing to DVD is best else write to CD.
Every year you could create a DVD with a years worth of your best
photos.
Regards Brian
(PeteCresswell) - 27 Oct 2005 16:09 GMT
Per Brian:
>It's best to write your camera photos to two disks as one disk could
>get damaged. Use a good brand of disk. You might want to use a
>different brand of disk for the second disk.
Also, if it's hard disks, you have to exercise some discipline.
If one disc fails, you have to resist the temptation to just hook up the other
one.
What you need to do is buy yet another drive, copy the contents of the remaining
drive to it using another computer, and then hook up the new drive.
Reason for this is that the cause of a drive's failure can be a rogue USB or
FireWire card and you don't want to fry the remaining drive.
That's one reason why three drives is the absolute minimum for me. Then, if
the worst happens and I manage to damage a second drive in the recovery process
I still have one more left. Needless-to-say, I'd also have DVD's, but they
would be somewhat out of date. Belt-And-Suspenders all the way....

Signature
PeteCresswell
Jasen - 27 Oct 2005 16:50 GMT
> Per Brian:
> >It's best to write your camera photos to two disks as one disk could
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> I still have one more left. Needless-to-say, I'd also have DVD's, but they
> would be somewhat out of date. Belt-And-Suspenders all the way....
Phew! It sounds like everyone has a slightly different way of doing things
but there is an underlying theme here. I think I'll do a mix of everthing
and hopefully I'll have the backup I need. Thanks for your input.
Cheers
Jasen
(PeteCresswell) - 28 Oct 2005 01:11 GMT
Per Jasen:
>Phew! It sounds like everyone has a slightly different way of doing things
>but there is an underlying theme here.
I suspect that some of the difference in how far we go collelates with the
significance of the data.
For me, it's basically a good bit of my professional life for the last ten
years. I'm a computer application developer and my work is cumulative in that
when a situation I've dealt with before comes up my value increases if I can
call up code that was used for prior similar situations.

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PeteCresswell
Leonard Lehew - 28 Oct 2005 14:10 GMT
>Been thinking about storage devices myself of late and noticed a related
>post or two about Vosonic and iPods for example. How reliable are they??
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>cheers
>Jasen
Probably not as reliable as CF cards. Digital workflow is covered in a
lot of other posts and in plenty of books. The important thing is to
have a consistent approach that protects your data. Briefly, I work as
follows:
1. Carry enough CF cards with me to take the pictures. For me, I can
get about 100 images on a 2GB card.
2. Copy the contents of the CF card to my computer.
3. Delete any obviously useless shots.
4. Sort the images into CD-sized directories.
5. Burn the unaltered files from my camera onto CDs.
6. Back up from my hard drive to an external USB drive.
7. At that point, I will reformat the CF cards.
I keep copies of the images I really like (and my working copies) on
my PCs hard drive. I back up these working copies to an external hard
drive. My guiding principle is to always have at least 2 copies of any
data that I care about.
Leonard