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Photo Forum / General Photo Topics / General Topics / August 2005

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Night Time Photography

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Melody - 28 Aug 2005 21:30 GMT
I'm terrible at it! I went out last night (yesss, I took a tripod) and took
about 60 pictures of a local bridge. I'm really not happy with the lighting
on any of them.

I'd like to be able to shoot night time landscapes but I need some major
help with lighting. Any tips?
mOSaic - 28 Aug 2005 21:40 GMT
what type of lighting is already on the bridge? my recommendation is a time
exposure with a wide aperature. i'm the farthest from a pro.
> I'm terrible at it! I went out last night (yesss, I took a tripod) and
> took
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I'd like to be able to shoot night time landscapes but I need some major
> help with lighting. Any tips?
Rob Novak - 28 Aug 2005 22:06 GMT
>I'd like to be able to shoot night time landscapes but I need some major
>help with lighting. Any tips?

Can you put some examples up somewhere along with some text about what
you like or don't like about your shots?

You have to take the color casts of various types of lighting into
account: the bluish mercury vapor lights, yellow low-pressure sodium,
orange-pink high-pressure sodium, narrow-spectrum HID lamps, etc.  If
you're shooting digital - shoot RAW and set the color temp to your
liking later.  If you don't want to shoot raw, turn off auto
white-balance.  If you're shooting film, you can use filters to color
correct the lighting.  However, in some cases it's just best to
emphasize or use the lighting that's there to your advantage.

Always use a tripod.  Always use a moderate aperture to get good DOF.
Meter for the shadows, not the lights.  Use mirror lockup and/or a
cable release to reduce vibration from your hand or mirror-slap.  If
you can't get a good meter reading for your selected aperture, open up
the lens fully, take a reading (if possible) and then multiply that
time by two for every stop you close the lens back down.  If you don't
have a manual shutter speed that long, use "bulb" and the second hand
on your watch.  Sometimes, it really just comes down to making an
educated guess.

Signature

Central Maryland Photographers' Guild - http://www.cmpg.org
Strange, Geometrical Hinges - http://rob.rnovak.net

Melody - 29 Aug 2005 01:47 GMT
> >I'd like to be able to shoot night time landscapes but I need some major
> >help with lighting. Any tips?
>
> Can you put some examples up somewhere along with some text about what
> you like or don't like about your shots?

Here are a few of the shots:
http://www.innamorata.com/Bridges/

(keep in mind I wasn't trying for any sort of award when shooting these,
haha, just trying to get a grasp on this nighttime-flashless digital
photography thing)

I do not like the little rainbow halo's you see around some of the lights,
though I'm wondering if the UV filter (yes, yes, I should have taken it off)
might have caused that(?). Otherwise, I have a terrible time critiquing my
own photography... I can pinpoint in other people's work what I don't like
or what doesn't look right but I have a hell of a time turning that around
on myself... I look at it, realize *something* looks wrong then dwell over
what it is without ever coming to a specific conclusion. (Is anyone else
like that or am I just an oddball?)

<great tips snipped>
>  If
> you're shooting digital - shoot RAW and set the color temp to your
> liking later.  If you don't want to shoot raw, turn off auto
> white-balance.  If you're shooting film, you can use filters to color
> correct the lighting.  However, in some cases it's just best to
> emphasize or use the lighting that's there to your advantage.

Thanks for the tips, I need to do a lot of research on lighting, it's always
been my big downfall.

I'm trying to shoot digital but I've always been a manual girl. I've shot
with a Nikon FM, an old Hasselblad, and an old Rolleicord since I was eight
years old. Going from that to this Canon 350D has been a huge change. I'm
not used to all the digital menus and trying to figure out how to change
f-stops... it's going to take some getting used to. I really need to sit
down & read the manual cover to cover, I just skimmed it and looked up
tidbits from time to time.

> Always use a tripod.  Always use a moderate aperture > to get good DOF.

I did use a tripod...

> Use mirror lockup and/or a
> cable release to reduce vibration from your hand or mirror-slap.

I used the timer when I took these shots. My shutter release cables don't
work (obviously) and I haven't yet researched what kind of cable I need for
this one.

Thanks again, Rob (and others who replied), let me know what you think
please.
kz8rt3 - 29 Aug 2005 04:33 GMT
> > >I'd like to be able to shoot night time landscapes but I need some major
> > >help with lighting. Any tips?
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> haha, just trying to get a grasp on this nighttime-flashless digital
> photography thing)

I see very few things to dislike. The general scene is kind of boring to
me. No real subject.

> I do not like the little rainbow halo's you see around some of the lights,
> though I'm wondering if the UV filter (yes, yes, I should have taken it off)
> might have caused that(?).

This image
http://www.innamorata.com/Bridges/target18.html
makes me think it is your filter or glass causing the halo. It is too
clear of a prism to be from fog. Take off the glass, clean your lenses,
and switch lenses. EXPERIMENT! :^)

(In fact I am pretty sure it is your glass.)

> Otherwise, I have a terrible time critiquing my
> own photography... I can pinpoint in other people's work what I don't like
> or what doesn't look right but I have a hell of a time turning that around
> on myself... I look at it, realize *something* looks wrong then dwell over
> what it is without ever coming to a specific conclusion. (Is anyone else
> like that or am I just an oddball?)

I assure you, you are an oddball. It's a nice place to be.

Anyway, I found that if I do not like something I just put it away.
There are many things that are not quantifiable in art. Don't bother
dwelling. Stay with the feeling and you'll do fine.

http://www.innamorata.com/Bridges/target3.html
It is too even, cut right in the middle. The brain does not like that.
Most of them are actually. It works sometimes but not with these for me.

> I'm trying to shoot digital but I've always been a manual girl.

One more tip. Go back to film. ;^P
Melody - 31 Aug 2005 00:27 GMT
> In article <qdGdnUnFP5eNxo_eRVn-iQ@comcast.com>,

> I see very few things to dislike. The general scene is kind of boring to
> me. No real subject.

Agreed, it was all about getting the lighting right, not the composition.

> This image
> http://www.innamorata.com/Bridges/target18.html
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> (In fact I am pretty sure it is your glass.)

Yeah, I'm going to go back soon (after the lovely Katrina decides to leave
the area) and try it again without the filter and try a couple of different
lenses. I'm a lens cleaning junkie so I'm pretty sure the lens was as clean
as it possibly could be but I did just buy a new UV filter a couple of weeks
ago because I was afraid I'd end up scratching the lens if I didn't put
something on it... so I'm guessing it's probably the culprit.

> One more tip. Go back to film. ;^P

Still considering it, but I like the instant gratification I get from
digital... I'll never get rid of my film cameras or stop using them
completely but the instant results from shooting digital are allowing me to
improve in ways film didn't, yanno?
frank - 30 Aug 2005 16:44 GMT
If you take out the blocked shadows and concentrate on , or crop, the
bridge and reflections you will get a better shot. Or, you can expose
for the shadows and blend them with the highlights, which came out
well. As for the rainbows...if it were completely the lens's fault all
the specular lights would have tiny rainbows around them, which I fail
so see. I would suggest it is the type, temperature, proximity and
directionality of the light that caused the highlights. All of one
could cause that....but ask yourself....why not in all cases.
Photography is also problem solving.
kz8rt3 - 28 Aug 2005 23:06 GMT
> I'm terrible at it! I went out last night (yesss, I took a tripod) and took
> about 60 pictures of a local bridge. I'm really not happy with the lighting
> on any of them.
>
> I'd like to be able to shoot night time landscapes but I need some major
> help with lighting. Any tips?

Not enough info.

Camera type?

Time of night?

What kind of landscape?

What was wrong with the images?
Canongirly - 29 Aug 2005 19:17 GMT
Try shooting at dawn or dusk instead of dead of night.

> I'm terrible at it! I went out last night (yesss, I took a tripod) and
> took
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I'd like to be able to shoot night time landscapes but I need some major
> help with lighting. Any tips?
DBLEXPOSURE - 29 Aug 2005 20:27 GMT
> Try shooting at dawn or dusk instead of dead of night.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>> I'd like to be able to shoot night time landscapes but I need some major
>> help with lighting. Any tips?

I would like to see these images, It might be helpful in offering advice.

Assuming the bridge was lit,  You might be unhappy with the colors you got.
Photoshop can be a great help with this as outdoor lighting can be at many
differnt color temps.

Also, it can be hard to focus at night because there isn't much to see in
the viewfinder.  Try metering with the lens wide open, if you can get an
exposure time, then start stopping down the lens and doubling the exposure
time for each stop,  (smaller aperture makes focus less imortant, infact do
not even try to focus visually, use the scale on the lens or just set it to
infinity).  Lets say you come up with 2 minutes for your exposure.  Go ahead
and shoot it a 2min.  and then at 4min maybe 1.5min and even 6 or 8min,
(bracketing)

DO this on calm nights when wind won't mess with you tripod.

I have seen some really cool stuff that where any where from 1 to 6 hour
exposures.  You just have to get a feel for it.  It takes hands on
experience...

http://www.usefilm.com/image/887329.html

http://www.usefilm.com/image/776169.html


Melody - 29 Aug 2005 22:27 GMT
> Try shooting at dawn or dusk instead of dead of night.

Well, the point was that I want to improve my skill at shooting at night,
not that I wanted pictures of this bridge. (This stupid bridge is probably
the most overphotographed thing within 100 mile radius of me.) I know how to
adjust for dusk and dawn light... just wanting to learn how to do it in the
dead of night :) Thanks though!
Unspam - 29 Aug 2005 23:28 GMT
>> Try shooting at dawn or dusk instead of dead of night.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> adjust for dusk and dawn light... just wanting to learn how to do it in the
> dead of night :) Thanks though!

Well at least you don't have to worry about reciprocity failure. I think you
need to give a little more exposure and select less contrasty subjects (i.e.
not artificially lit) or choose a time of day when there is some ambient
light, like on a moonlit night.
Melody - 31 Aug 2005 00:27 GMT
> Well at least you don't have to worry about reciprocity failure. I think you
> need to give a little more exposure and select less contrasty subjects (i.e.
> not artificially lit) or choose a time of day when there is some ambient
> light, like on a moonlit night.

Indeed. I will try that. Thanks :)

P.S. Send me your Leica :)
Hunt - 30 Aug 2005 05:06 GMT
>> Try shooting at dawn or dusk instead of dead of night.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>adjust for dusk and dawn light... just wanting to learn how to do it in the
>dead of night :) Thanks though!

Melody,

What you are basically saying is that you want to photograph objects/settings,
that are not well lit, will contain the instruments of illumination, and want
great results with little, or no ambient light.

About the only thing you can do is to have some assistants with tons of strobe
power, who will fire their lights, when you open the shutter. Not very likely.

As for the halos, yes, anything in front of the lens, or behind it (though
behind is better) will affect the spectral sources, i.e. the lights on the
bridge. A smaller aperture, though usually not closed to min. will help in
this area, as will the actual lens design. If you shoot digital, and can shoot
RAW, you might be able to modulate the halos somewhat.

Best bet is to shoot when there is some ambient light, otherwise, all you will
get is a photograph of the instruments of illumination.

Hunt
Melody - 31 Aug 2005 00:27 GMT
> Melody,
>
> What you are basically saying is that you want to photograph objects/settings,
> that are not well lit, will contain the instruments of illumination, and want
> great results with little, or no ambient light.

Well, yeah, wouldn't that be ideal? :) hahaha
I just want to be able to get as close as possible to being able to
photograph the scene as I see it.

> About the only thing you can do is to have some assistants with tons of strobe
> power, who will fire their lights, when you open the shutter. Not very likely.

Wanna come help? :)

> As for the halos, yes, anything in front of the lens, or behind it (though
> behind is better) will affect the spectral sources, i.e. the lights on the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Hunt

Good points, thanks :)
Hunt - 30 Aug 2005 04:58 GMT
>I'm terrible at it! I went out last night (yesss, I took a tripod) and took
>about 60 pictures of a local bridge. I'm really not happy with the lighting
>on any of them.
>
>I'd like to be able to shoot night time landscapes but I need some major
>help with lighting. Any tips?

Rob Novak had some good comments and questions for you. Aside from his query,
you might want to use this bridge as an example, and do multiple exposures of
it, either on film, or via multiple shots combined in PS, or similar, on
digital. Shoot the bridge with the evening light, and underexpose slightly,
then wait until the lights come on and do a shot just for the lights.

Hunt
chrlz@go.com - 30 Aug 2005 07:46 GMT
>..took about 60 pictures of a local bridge. I'm really not happy
>with the lighting on any of them

Just a late comment..  As I quickly glanced over the thumbnails, I
couldn't help but think - what are these pictures *of*?

Yes, I know it's a bridge at night..! (O:  But we've all seen pretty
bridges at night, and unless the composition is interesting, they are
just fairly boring pictures (sorry, but you said *you* didn't like them
either!).  I think before agonising over the lighting (which isn't too
bad) you need to look much more carefully at how you are composing the
images.  Rules of thirds, leading lines, unusual viewpoints, you know
the stuff... and get *everything* out of the image that is not
required.

F'rinstance, in 'target14.html', there is a really interesting vertical
pillar with strong textures - it would make a great focus for an image
*without* most of the rest of the scene.  In 'target16.html', you have
got in a lot closer to an interesting feature, and from a thumbnail
point-of-view, it's probably the only one that would attact my
interest.  But the righthand side of that shot draws my eye away -
there is just too much 'stuff' to look at, and none of it is
particularly striking.

To me, what makes an image a 'keeper' is the emotional impact thing -
there should be a 'wow', or a sigh, or some sort of 'oh yeah - I see
what s/he is trying to say..'  It could be as simple as an interesting
texture, or a dark foreboding mood, a weird shape that emerges from
structures, a striking shadow effect, maybe a single attractive
structure with the other elements in the image 'pointing' at it....
whatever - but it needs to be *something*.  I don't think it is the
lighting that is such a problem - it's more the lack of that
something..

Hope that helps, and you don't think I'm being too harsh - I don't mean
to be..  The shots are certainly a good start at night photography!
Melody - 31 Aug 2005 00:33 GMT
> Hope that helps, and you don't think I'm being too harsh - I don't mean
> to be..  The shots are certainly a good start at night photography!

No, no, not at all.. I apprieciate the tips.

I am fully aware that the composition was bad. It was 1am, I was downtown,
didn't want to be raped, killed, blugoned, etc... so I went somewhere safe
that I could play around. Unfortunately there's not a very good place to get
good angles there and I didn't really care about the composition so much as
being able to achieve the right lighting (which is apparently impossible on
a moonless night). Working with artificial lighting is, in my opinion, my
biggest weakness and I'm playing around trying to get better at
photographing it. I really apprieciate the tips from everyone, I've learned
a ton.

Thanks guys :)
Dirty Harry - 30 Aug 2005 09:20 GMT
> I'm terrible at it! I went out last night (yesss, I took a tripod) and took
> about 60 pictures of a local bridge. I'm really not happy with the lighting
> on any of them.
>
> I'd like to be able to shoot night time landscapes but I need some major
> help with lighting. Any tips?

Those halos from your lens really ruin the picture.  The last one is really
good except for the halos.  Here is my best bridge pic:
http://s124954247.onlinehome.us/Edmonton%20album/slides/bridgenight.jpg
have you tried getting right down to the water?  I had to get my tripod wet
for that one.  Try some really long exposures for some cool effects of the
lights reflecting off the water.  Oh I think, but i'm not sure, if you stop
your lens down you might get stars instead of halos, I've never had that
problem with any of my lenses though, including the 18-55 kit lens.  Oh one
more bridge pic www.harryphotos.com/fireworks4.jpg
BH - 30 Aug 2005 22:08 GMT
I think the original photos just need more light or to zoom in a bit.

Here's my attempt -

http://www.pbase.com/anglotexan/image/46834335

I wasn't in the water, but right at it.

BH

>> I'm terrible at it! I went out last night (yesss, I took a tripod) and
> took
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> one
> more bridge pic www.harryphotos.com/fireworks4.jpg
Melody - 31 Aug 2005 00:40 GMT
> I think the original photos just need more light or to zoom in a bit.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> BH

That's a great shot! Thanks for sharing it.

I'll definitely go somewhere different next time, use a different lens,
etc... I'll make sure I go more prepared for a good overall shot. Thanks :)
Melody - 31 Aug 2005 00:40 GMT
> Those halos from your lens really ruin the picture.  The last one is really
> good except for the halos.  Here is my best bridge pic:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> problem with any of my lenses though, including the 18-55 kit lens.  Oh one
> more bridge pic www.harryphotos.com/fireworks4.jpg

Those are both gorgeous shots, thanks for sharing them!

Unfortunately the river in that area is surrounded by steep rocky ledges and
it's damn near impossible to even get down to the water there (and I didn't
want to try it alone at 1am either!). If I want to actually get a good shot
of that bridge I'll try it from a different vantage point. Thanks!
 
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