Photo Forum / General Photo Topics / General Topics / June 2005
Bad prints
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Scott W - 22 Jun 2005 14:23 GMT I shoot a roll of film, take it to the photo lab, the next day pick it up and look at the photos, and this is often what I would see. http://www.pbase.com/konascott/image/45161464/large You can hit original on any of the photos for the full res view.
It looks like I have totally blown out the highlights, but a quick view of the negative shows that the image is all there, it just was not printed right.
Many years go by and I keep watching the price for film scanners, at last they get cheap enough that I can buy one.
Scanning the negative, almost 20 years later, this is what I got http://www.pbase.com/konascott/image/45161465/large
So ok not perhaps a great photo, but at least it is ok.
Scanning prints with a flatbed scanner never can match a good negative scan, but the print really is as bad as it looks in the scan. For comparison here is a scan of a print that was made from a digital photo http://www.pbase.com/konascott/image/45161463/large
And here is the digital photos, resize http://www.pbase.com/konascott/image/45161462/large
Not every film print that I have gotten back has looked as bad as the first photo, but many have. I have yet to have a digital photo printed poorly.
I believe that one of the reasons that so many people have gone to digital photography is that crappy prints from film is pretty much the norm. Consumer Reports had a long article on this a couple of years ago, where they took the same negatives to a number of labs to get them printed, most of the time the printing job was not very good.
I am sure there are pro labs that could and would do a much better job of the printing but most people, including me, don't want to pay an arm and a leg for their prints.
It has been said the people go to digital for the convenience, but I believe it is as much about quality as convenience. The thing I hear the most from people who went from film to digital is the relief at being able to control their own prints. In short film has not served the mainstream photographer well, there should be little wonder that people are so glad to get away from it.
Scott
dadiOH - 22 Jun 2005 15:20 GMT > In short film has not served > the mainstream photographer well, there should be little wonder that > people are so glad to get away from it. The problem isn't film, it is the people using it and their misunderstandings (and/or lack of expertise) and expectations that exceed the capabilities of the media.
For example, in your first example, the photographic print had inordinately dense highlights (too light in the print) because of the large masses of dark areas in the background...the exposure was an "average" one for the entire scene - a scene which had lighting ranges too extreme for either film or digital. Had you based your exposure on the sunlighted people, all would have been better. So why didn't the printer correct the faux pas? Two reasons: firstly, he has no way of knowing what you want; secondly, photo finishing equipment is set to provide for an "average" negative.
In your second example, the first photo is too red. It is too red because you didn't adjust your scan to adjust that. People are accepting of a wide range of color...some (not me) would prefer the too red one over the correction which is, arguably, too green or cyan.
-- dadiOH ____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06... ...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that. Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
Scott W - 22 Jun 2005 19:56 GMT >> In short film has not served >> the mainstream photographer well, there should be little wonder that [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > knowing what you want; secondly, photo finishing equipment is set to > provide for an "average" negative. You might be correct that the print machines are set up for average negatives. Still I think the problem with the print go a bit beyond that, there is a halo effect on the print, almost like there was Vaseline on the enlarger lens.
I would argue that the negative was exposed well, any less and I would have lost detail in the shadows. I think what the print shows is that for people who just want to drop there photos off and pick up prints film is not being used to its full capabilities. If I can’t use the more heavily exposed parts of a negative it greatly reduces its effective dynamic range.
So my choices as I see it are, shoot film and do my own scanning, shoot film and accept the limitations of the standard printer, shoot film and use a pro lab to produce my prints.
I don’t like what I get from the mini-labs, and from the article in Consumer Reports there is a lot not to like, I don’t want to pay the cost to have a pro lab make my prints, I would rather not take the time to scan my negatives, this leaves digital, which is working very well for me.
I do, on occasion, get some great looking prints from film. These have been over the years and have come from the same labs that produce crap much of the time. Clearly it is possible from them to produce good prints but the consistency is lacking. I have any number of prints that are so out of focus that they look like crap, and yet the negative is sharp.
I have a love hate relationship with my film scanner, I love that I can "rescue" photos that I have had printed in the past. I hate that it takes so much time and effect to do so. Did I mention that the mini-labs seem to love to put scratches on my negatives, it can take a long time to clean the scanned image.
Sadly I am loosing my negatives over time, here is another print from about 20 years ago
http://www.pbase.com/konascott/image/45171664/original
And here is what a scan of the negative looks like today
http://www.pbase.com/konascott/image/45171665/original
I live in Hawaii, which is probably one of the worst places you can store negatives. The above is a pretty extreme case but most of my negatives from 20 years ago are showing some level of degradation, a few are not. So when people tell me that film is archival and digital is not I have to just shake my head.
Scott
Pat Ziegler - 22 Jun 2005 20:15 GMT Another option. Learn to process your own film. You can get started for around $100 and you can get you cost/roll down to less than a dollar for 36 exposures... There is a bit of a learning curve but it really is not as bad as most think it is... Plus you now have total control of the process!
If you want to know more let me know and I can help get you started
Pat Ziegler http://imagequest.netfirms.com
>>> In short film has not served >>> the mainstream photographer well, there should be little wonder that [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > > Scott Scott W - 22 Jun 2005 20:32 GMT > Another option. Learn to process your own film. You can get started for > around $100 and you can get you cost/roll down to less than a dollar for [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > If you want to know more let me know and I can help get you started Normally the negatives come out ok, it is the prints that are the problem. I don't have a good place for a darkroom in the house and to be honest I now simply use my 20D as my 35mm camera, this has solved the problem for me, well expect that I still have a lot of old negatives that I have not scanned yet.
Scott
Alan Browne - 22 Jun 2005 20:47 GMT > Normally the negatives come out ok, it is the prints that are the problem. I > don't have a good place for a darkroom in the house and to be honest I now > simply use my 20D as my 35mm camera, this has solved the problem for me, > well expect that I still have a lot of old negatives that I have not scanned > yet. I've scanned negatives and slides that are 20 - 40 years old. Colors are a bit wacky sometimes, but that can be 'helped' in PS. Recent (last 10 years) negatives are fine.
I suggest, if you haven't done so, that you spend some time at www.scantips.com
Cheers, Alan
 Signature A beaver and a rabbit are sitting in the woods near Hoover Dam. "Did you build that one?" the rabbit asked. "No, but it was based on an idea of mine," the beaver replied. -Jack Kilby on his invention of the IC.
Scott W - 22 Jun 2005 21:48 GMT >> Normally the negatives come out ok, it is the prints that are the >> problem. I don't have a good place for a darkroom in the house and to be [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I suggest, if you haven't done so, that you spend some time at > www.scantips.com I have a lot of negatives from around 20 years ago that look just fine today, here is one from close to 20 years ago http://www.pbase.com/konascott/image/45175061/original In this case the negative did not have any scratches and the colors still look good, and I can get a much better print from this scan then I got from the lab. BTW this was a log that had falling into a stream, in the middle of the woods and the water going through it like a pipe, very neat.
But many of my old negatives are going bad, some very much so, like this http://www.pbase.com/konascott/image/45171665/original
This negative needs more then a little work in Photoshop.
I just don't view color negatives as even close to archival.
Scott
Alan Browne - 22 Jun 2005 21:56 GMT > I just don't view color negatives as even close to archival. If properly kept, they go a very long time. Cool, dry (which is harder to do in most houses than most people appreciate. But a small room with a dehumidifier goes a long way ... not that I've done it.)
 Signature A beaver and a rabbit are sitting in the woods near Hoover Dam. "Did you build that one?" the rabbit asked. "No, but it was based on an idea of mine," the beaver replied. -Jack Kilby on his invention of the IC.
Scott W - 22 Jun 2005 22:37 GMT >> I just don't view color negatives as even close to archival. > > If properly kept, they go a very long time. Cool, dry (which is harder to > do in most houses than most people appreciate. But a small room with a > dehumidifier goes a long way ... not that I've done it.) I live in Hawaii, there is no cool and dry here. The houses are wide open here, what the temp and humidity is outside is the same that we see inside.
Scott
Alan Browne - 23 Jun 2005 13:47 GMT >>>I just don't view color negatives as even close to archival. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > here, > what the temp and humidity is outside is the same that we see inside. Well run down to your local hardware store and get enough material to build a small room in a utility area, reasonably well sealed, but not hermetic. Helps to add a door. Put an a/c in there. All done. Cool / dry.
 Signature A beaver and a rabbit are sitting in the woods near Hoover Dam. "Did you build that one?" the rabbit asked. "No, but it was based on an idea of mine," the beaver replied. -Jack Kilby on his invention of the IC.
dadiOH - 23 Jun 2005 13:44 GMT > I would argue that the negative was exposed well, Exposed well maybe for the entire scene - a scene in which the range exceeded the media capability - but not for the people. _______________
> any less and I > would have lost detail in the shadows. What shadow detail? There is none, just a bit of cyan because the print is underexposed. _______________
> If I can’t use the more heavily exposed parts of a negative it greatly reduces
> its effective dynamic range. Film - including transparencies - can capture detail in a greater range than can paper. If your intent is paper prints from film you have to take that fact into consideration. _______________
> I live in Hawaii, which is probably one of the worst places you can > store negatives. Hawaii isn't particularly bad. Temperatures are much less than many mainland areas, humidity is too depending upon where you live in Hawaii. I lived there for almost 40 years, regularly made prints from old negs. ______________
>The above is a pretty extreme case but most of my > negatives from 20 years ago are showing some level of degradation, a > few are not. So when people tell me that film is archival and digital > is not I have to just shake my head. I don't know where you got the idea that film (or prints) is archival. Especially color. Color film/prints are both subject to change both from light and dark. Much B&W goes eventually too, generally from residual chemicals.
-- dadiOH ____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06... ...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that. Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
Scott W - 23 Jun 2005 15:39 GMT > > I would argue that the negative was exposed well, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > What shadow detail? There is none, just a bit of cyan because the print > is underexposed. I think my whole point has in fact been that the print was under exposed, which is what made the people look so washed out. If I had exposed the negative less then I did then the shadow areas would have been very clear and there would have been nothing at all got get from them but noise.
> _______________ > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > mainland areas, humidity is too depending upon where you live in Hawaii. > I lived there for almost 40 years, regularly made prints from old negs. There are places that are hotter and more humid like Florida, but people tend to use air-conditioning in those kind of places, not here.
> >The above is a pretty extreme case but most of my > > negatives from 20 years ago are showing some level of degradation, a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > from light and dark. Much B&W goes eventually too, generally from > residual chemicals. There are many on who have argued that negatives will outlast digital files, clearly this is not always the case.
Scott
Mr. Mark - 22 Jun 2005 15:58 GMT > I shoot a roll of film, take it to the photo lab, the next day pick it > up and look at the photos, and this is often what I would see. > http://www.pbase.com/konascott/image/45161464/large > You can hit original on any of the photos for the full res view. <snip>
I went through this a while back at Ritz. It's why I stopped going to these hack labs and started using a pro shop that knew wtf they were doing.
Your images are excellent examples of the problem.
BTW, what scanner are you using - the scans look great.
 Signature Mark
Photos, Ideas & Opinions http://www.marklauter.com
Scott W - 22 Jun 2005 19:04 GMT >> I shoot a roll of film, take it to the photo lab, the next day pick it >> up and look at the photos, and this is often what I would see. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > BTW, what scanner are you using - the scans look great. For the film scanner I am using a Minolta Dimage Scan Dual III,
it takes a lot of work to get it set up right and has pretty disappointing dynamic
range, it is a 16 bit scanner but the bottom bits are all pretty much just noise.
But with a bit of care it can get the color right, which is more then I can say of the places I have had my prints done at in the past.
Scott
Marvin - 22 Jun 2005 17:12 GMT > I shoot a roll of film, take it to the photo lab, the next day pick it > up and look at the photos, and this is often what I would see. [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > Scott Prints made from digital files are using new equipment. That may explain the better results.
Once was Ryadia - 22 Jun 2005 19:10 GMT >I shoot a roll of film, take it to the photo lab, the next day pick it > up and look at the photos, and this is often what I would see. > http://www.pbase.com/konascott/image/45161464/large > You can hit original on any of the photos for the full res view. Amazing how many posters are prepared to blame the shooter and not the real problem. It is common place in high volume, cut price labs to increase the developing temperature of their film processor and reduce the processing time to speed up the daily take.
You can also do this with a print processor but the results are way more noticeable than with film. Your shots look to me like a classic example of this practice.
Just figure that no one in business is going to give you anything for free. When they cut the price, they must either use cheaper labour (untrained staff) or speed up their throughput. I'd have a guess and say this crew have done it all and your job is evidence of that.
You might also care to consider that on days with deep shadow and bright sun, often the shadow detail has to be sacrificed to record the highlights. This is why Pros use a flash in daylight - to reduce the contrast range.
Most film is able to record a decent range of either highlights to mid range or shadow to mid range and some on either side. It's hard enough to decide which to sacrifice without having someone you pay money to, destroying the balance because "they" decided you couldn't tell the difference. Change your lab but as film loses ground to digital, expect to see more and more hungry operators pull these stunts.
Douglas
McLeod - 22 Jun 2005 20:51 GMT >It is common place in high volume, cut price labs to increase the developing >temperature of their film processor and reduce the processing time to speed >up the daily take. I haven't worked on a film processor with an adjustable speed setting for over 10 years. To me it just looks like bad printing or an out of control situation in a printer.
You must be pretty good to diagnose a temperature increase in development and a speed increase on a film processor by looking at a scan of a print from a 35mm negative.
Doug - 23 Jun 2005 08:33 GMT > You must be pretty good to diagnose a temperature increase in > development and a speed increase on a film processor by looking at a > scan of a print from a 35mm negative. --------------------- Yes, you are right. Get in touch with some of the cowboys in Australia and your's can run at whatever speed you chose with a simple addition of a few soldered wires and potentiometer on it... Regardless of the make.
Douglas
dooey - 27 Jun 2005 23:03 GMT > >I shoot a roll of film, take it to the photo lab, the next day pick it > > up and look at the photos, and this is often what I would see. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > noticeable than with film. Your shots look to me like a classic example of > this practice. What a load of rubbish! These a simply colour balance issues. In fact, in my experience it is high volume labs that monitor their process control particually carefully as the cost of retanking is obviously higher with larger tanks and increased downtime. Different paper and chemistry types and processes have different temps and process speeds.
Dooey.
Mr. Mark - 23 Jun 2005 16:58 GMT > I shoot a roll of film, take it to the photo lab, the next day pick it <snip>
I once took a roll of film to a lab. When I got them back I was very disappointed to see that they were - every last one of them - printed up side down. I looked at the negatives to be sure that the mistake wasn't mine. <g>
 Signature Mark
Photos, Ideas & Opinions http://www.marklauter.com
Scott W - 23 Jun 2005 17:15 GMT > > I shoot a roll of film, take it to the photo lab, the next day pick it > <snip> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > side down. I looked at the negatives to be sure that the mistake wasn't > mine. <g> Upside down is not too hard to fix, using the mechanical rotation method, although I am never sure if I should rotate right or left 180.
But I had one whole set of negative printed from the wrong side, the result was of course that the prints were all mirror images.
I had another case where I got prints, but someone else's negatives. I did not notice until I went to scan the negatives years later, whether the other person ever notice I don't know.
Scott
Mr. Mark - 23 Jun 2005 17:36 GMT > > I once took a roll of film to a lab. When I got them back I was very > > disappointed to see that they were - every last one of them - printed up [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Upside down is not too hard to fix, using the mechanical rotation > method, although I am never sure if I should rotate right or left 180. I had them reprint them 3 times and finally gave up. :)
> But I had one whole set of negative printed from the wrong side, the > result was of course that the prints were all mirror images. Doh! That *would* be a problem.
> I had another case where I got prints, but someone else's negatives. > I did not notice until I went to scan the negatives years later, > whether the other person ever notice I don't know. Were the pictures on the negatives any good? :)
 Signature Mark
Photos, Ideas & Opinions http://www.marklauter.com
Scott W - 23 Jun 2005 18:25 GMT > > I had another case where I got prints, but someone else's negatives. > > I did not notice until I went to scan the negatives years later, > > whether the other person ever notice I don't know. > > Were the pictures on the negatives any good? :) There were not all that bad, but there were all these people in them that I did not know. They were of the Black Hills area of South Dakota, including Mt. Rushmore, which I have also photographed. So at fist I though maybe I got my own negatives in with the wrong prints, but when I started to see a lot of people I did not know it became clear what happened.
Scott
Mr. Mark - 23 Jun 2005 18:54 GMT "Scott W" <biphoto@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > Were the pictures on the negatives any good? :) > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > but when I started to see a lot of people I did not know it became > clear what happened. Perhaps they are people you *used to know*, but forgot. :)
It would be fun to build stories around the folks in the pictures.
"And this is Crazy Uncle Ted. He drinks too much." :D
 Signature Mark
Photos, Ideas & Opinions http://www.marklauter.com
William Graham - 23 Jun 2005 22:58 GMT > "Scott W" <biphoto@hotmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > "And this is Crazy Uncle Ted. He drinks too much." :D Wait a minute! - I had an uncle Ted who drank too much....Maybe those pictures are mine......
William Graham - 23 Jun 2005 22:55 GMT >> > I shoot a roll of film, take it to the photo lab, the next day pick it >> <snip> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Scott You're lucky that the prints, at least, were yours. My father used to use the first picture on every roll shooting a white card that had his name and address on it, just in case his slides ended up in someone else's hands. (He printed his own, B&W pictures) I don't do this because I have never had them make a mistake, and my slides aren't that important anyway.....
William Graham - 23 Jun 2005 22:50 GMT >> I shoot a roll of film, take it to the photo lab, the next day pick it > <snip> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > side down. I looked at the negatives to be sure that the mistake wasn't > mine. <g> Yes. I notice that they print my slides backwards about half the time, too.....
Mr. Mark - 23 Jun 2005 22:52 GMT > > I once took a roll of film to a lab. When I got them back I was very > > disappointed to see that they were - every last one of them - printed up [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Yes. I notice that they print my slides backwards about half the time, > too..... Backwards is worse than upside down. ;)
 Signature Mark
Photos, Ideas & Opinions http://www.marklauter.com
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