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Photo Forum / General Photo Topics / General Topics / February 2005

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Corporate Photography Bid

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Noel St. John - 22 Feb 2005 15:59 GMT
Group:

Yet another question regarding pricing.  Hopefully this won't devolve
into the flame war that my last post inspired....

I'm bidding on covering a national 10K race.  I know exactly what the
client paid for last year's coverage.  While I run a professional
Photography outfit, my team and I are still relatively new and
underexperienced.  I really want this gig as it will greatly enhance
my portfolio, and I am considering bidding substantially lower than
last year's photographer to insure that I get it.

Have any of you lost jobs by bidding too low?  Your thoughts on this
would be greatly appreciated.

For those interested in seeing the kind of work I do, please visit
http://www.stjohnphotographics.com.

Thank You,
Noel St. John
canongirly - 22 Feb 2005 17:32 GMT
> Group:
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Have any of you lost jobs by bidding too low?  Your thoughts on this
> would be greatly appreciated.

Yes

The organisers have a budget. They figure on getting at least three quotes.
Last years supplier (if he was any good) and two others. They may try to use
a lower bid as leverage on the last years supplier to get a lower price out
of him this year...or not. However the job is worth X bidding below X by a
sizable margin may smack of despertion and they may have "concerns" about
your ability to actually deliver at that price.

If you want to bid below last years supplier my advice would be no less than
15% below. Personally I 'd go above last years if for no other reason than
to offset inflation.

Good luck and I hope you make a killing.

> For those interested in seeing the kind of work I do, please visit
> http://www.stjohnphotographics.com.
>
> Thank You,
> Noel St. John
Stephen Maudsley - 22 Feb 2005 17:57 GMT
> Group:
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Have any of you lost jobs by bidding too low?  Your thoughts on this
> would be greatly appreciated.

And you're creating an expectation of low prices which won't help you in the
long run.

A better bet is to consider how to improve the product that you're
offering...
C. Falise - 22 Feb 2005 19:05 GMT
> > Group:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> A better bet is to consider how to improve the product that you're
> offering...

just for the sake of arguement (i may regret this) -
i understand that driving down prices is not good for any of us.  however,
it is possible that the OP's product is of good quality - possibly better
than that of the current photographers.

it seems to me that the issue is one of how to get into the marketplace
initially with little experience and no proven track record.  i can see how
trying to underbid the competition may be one way to get the foot in the
door, so to speak.
i would also agree with another poster who suggested undercutting by no more
than 15%, as going too low may indeed give the impression of desperation.
that certainly will not help...

good luck to the OP

-c.
UC - 22 Feb 2005 21:58 GMT
> Group:
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Thank You,
> Noel St. John

Typical photo whore. Why not do it for free?

Get a life.
Noel St. John - 22 Feb 2005 23:15 GMT
>> Group:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
>Get a life.

Welcome to my killfile.
PLONK
Eric Boyce - 22 Feb 2005 22:45 GMT
hi

knowing what they paid last year is ok, but I would be more concerned about
what you can afford to do the job for. If you can quote a good price and
make a profit, then thats what you should do. If like others have stated you
can provide it and go a little extra, eg longer time shooting, or
beter/unique viepoint or something, then all the better.

If you go in cheap, then next year someone will go cheaper. in the end, you
will pay them.
eric
Noel St. John - 22 Feb 2005 23:31 GMT
My overhead is extremely low, so the profit I will make is more than
substantial, even if I keep the bid to 75% of last year's price.  

I have no illusions regarding the quality of my photography: I'm good
- I'm not great.  I know that there are many of you out there with a
better eye and much more experience.  The edge I have is unmatched
customer service, extremely fast turn around, and the willingness to
go the extra mile to satisfy my clients needs and expectations.  

Your point is valid regarding the lowering of prices.  Nevertheless,
the last thing I want any of my clients thinking is that they got
ripped off.  

>hi
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>will pay them.
>eric
UC - 23 Feb 2005 00:05 GMT
> My overhead is extremely low, so the profit I will make is more than
> substantial, even if I keep the bid to 75% of last year's price.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> the last thing I want any of my clients thinking is that they got
> ripped off.

You're a moron....and have no business sense at all....
SVTKate - 23 Feb 2005 02:35 GMT
Wow! Two kill files in one thread UC!

Plonk!

| > My overhead is extremely low, so the profit I will make is more than
| > substantial, even if I keep the bid to 75% of last year's price.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
|
| You're a moron....and have no business sense at all....
UC - 23 Feb 2005 00:50 GMT
> My overhead is extremely low,

(You live with your parents and ride a bike)

> so the profit I will make is more than
> substantial, even if I keep the bid to 75% of last year's price.

Right

> I have no illusions regarding the quality of my photography:

Desperate and useless, right?

> I'm good
> - I'm not great.  I know that there are many of you out there with a
> better eye and much more experience.

Then let them have the work. They deserve it!

> The edge I have is unmatched
> customer service, extremely fast turn around, and the willingness to
> go the extra mile to satisfy my clients needs and expectations.

How so? You ride a bike! You have no studio! You have no office
assistant!

> Your point is valid regarding the lowering of prices.  Nevertheless,
> the last thing I want any of my clients thinking is that they got
> ripped off.  

'Ripped off'? WTF? What? You're in high school?
Peter Resch - 23 Feb 2005 21:05 GMT
Where can I find out how to do a "Killfile"?
Peter Resch

> > My overhead is extremely low,
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> 'Ripped off'? WTF? What? You're in high school?
Noel St. John - 23 Feb 2005 22:01 GMT
If you are using Forte Agent:

Highlight the message from the future resident of your killfile, then
Message>Filter>Kill Filter.  Then select the parameters.

-or-

While holding the alt key hit in succession M F K D B

Quite a useful place to store the trolls.

Happy Killing!
Noel

>Where can I find out how to do a "Killfile"?
>Peter Resch
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>>
>> 'Ripped off'? WTF? What? You're in high school?
Piemanlager - 24 Feb 2005 19:21 GMT
> If you are using Forte Agent:
>
> Highlight the message from the future resident of your killfile, then
> Message>Filter>Kill Filter.  Then select the parameters.

Thanks Noel, never knew you could do that!

Simon

(Wales)

> -or-
>
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>>>
>>> 'Ripped off'? WTF? What? You're in high school?
Noel St. John - 25 Feb 2005 05:42 GMT
>> If you are using Forte Agent:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>(Wales)

Always happy to help!

>> -or-
>>
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>>>>
>>>> 'Ripped off'? WTF? What? You're in high school?
SVTKate - 23 Feb 2005 02:39 GMT
Noel,
You should stay competitive. My experience has been that if you come in way
low that your customers WILL come to expect that bargain basement price each
and every time. As soon as you raise your rates to those of your peers they
will abandon you for the next guy with the lowest price even if his quality
is poor. A little lower is good, but do not demean yourself or your staff by
bidding like an amateur.

Best of luck to you! Hope you'll let us know what happens.

Kate

| My overhead is extremely low, so the profit I will make is more than
| substantial, even if I keep the bid to 75% of last year's price.
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
| >will pay them.
| >eric
Noel St. John - 23 Feb 2005 04:19 GMT
Kate:

Thank you for the sage advice.  This bid is due tomorrow and I will be
working on producing one that is fair to all involved.  I will keep
you posted on the status of the bid.

>Noel,
>You should stay competitive. My experience has been that if you come in way
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>| >will pay them.
>| >eric
BillB - 23 Feb 2005 04:25 GMT
> Thank you for the sage advice.  This bid is due tomorrow and I will be
> working on producing one that is fair to all involved.  I will keep
> you posted on the status of the bid.

 Banks and other companies often have special offers designed to
entice new customers.  If you come up with a reasonable "first time"
inducement (special low price, discount, etc.) you wouldn't have to
worry about being saddled with the expectation of a similarly low
price in the future.
canongirly - 23 Feb 2005 07:38 GMT
>  Banks and other companies often have special offers designed to entice
> new customers.

VERY VERY BAD analagy. Banks are multi BILLION dollar/pound/whatever
corporations. They can easily afford to accept a small loss (like that's
EVER gonna happen) on new accounts coz 95% of customers don't change their
banks for at least 5 years. Most never change.

> If you come up with a reasonable "first time" inducement (special low
> price, discount, etc.) you wouldn't have to worry about being saddled with
> the expectation of a similarly low price in the future.

And you cannot be in business.

If you were you'd know how unlikely it is that the client will remember that
last time they used you they got a "special" price. Chances are that the
next time they contact you it'll be a different spod at their end whose
first remark on being reminded of this would be "Yeah but last year you
charged X" shortly before they put the phone down and called the next one on
the list.
grol - 23 Feb 2005 07:59 GMT
> If you were you'd know how unlikely it is that the client will remember that
> last time they used you they got a "special" price. Chances are that the
> next time they contact you it'll be a different spod at their end whose
> first remark on being reminded of this would be "Yeah but last year you
> charged X" shortly before they put the phone down and called the next one on
> the list.

Even if there is no repeat business from this customer, he would still have
achieved his goal:
   "I really want this gig as it will greatly enhance my portfolio"

It might gain him some recognition, which is valuable and a stepping stone to
other things.
grol
BillB - 23 Feb 2005 08:46 GMT
>>  Banks and other companies often have special offers designed to entice
>> new customers.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> EVER gonna happen) on new accounts coz 95% of customers don't change their
> banks for at least 5 years. Most never change.

 No, it isn't a bad analogy.  Just because banks use these
inducements it doesn't follow that small businesses don't.  In fact,
I still have several coupons (expired, of course) from a local
camera store good for free 8x10 prints.  This offer doesn't have to
be writ in stone for all time.  He could put in a line item showing
travel expenses, followed by canceling it (if the national 10k race
isn't taking place locally), telling the client that by an amazing
coincidence he would be visiting in that area, and wouldn't bill for
an expense not incurred.   Use this technique for only a short
period of time, and limit it to the first half dozen clients.  Or
less.

 You also make a VERY VERY BAD mistake by implying that if Noel
tried this he would suffer an unaffordable loss which a large bank
could afford (and the bank's giveaways are usually a very small
percentage of what is required to open an account so there probably
wouldn't be any losses, and probably restrictions on closing the
account).  The idea is to offer a *small* inducement.  One that
would slightly reduce the profit, but *not* drive the shoot into red
ink territory.  Noel even stated that "I am considering bidding
substantially lower . . .".  I'm trying to suggest *not* bidding
substantially lower, which would make it harder to raise his fees
for subsequent business.  Instead, he should use a much less drastic
inducement that's also easy to separate from the fees charged, which
would eliminate future business confusion.

>> If you come up with a reasonable "first time" inducement (special low
>> price, discount, etc.) you wouldn't have to worry about being saddled with
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> charged X" shortly before they put the phone down and called the next one on
> the list.

 And you cannot be thinking clearly, or I didn't make my point
clear enough.  But either way you seem to have overreacted by at
least a little bit.  The invoice would show the FULL price charged.
Not a reduced 'special' price.  There might be on another line a
clear description of what the inducement was along with limitations
and restrictions.  And another mistake you've made is thinking that
this would become his way of doing business (see "writ in stone,
above").  It's not supposed to do that at all.  It's supposed to
last only long enough to fatten his portfolio, which was the goal.
Not to find a long term way to steal business from competitors.
Mike Kohary - 24 Feb 2005 05:12 GMT
>>  Banks and other companies often have special offers designed to
>> entice new customers.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> that's EVER gonna happen) on new accounts coz 95% of customers don't
> change their banks for at least 5 years. Most never change.

Regardless, many small businesses have special offers to entice customers.
Maybe he should have chosen another example besides banks, but the point
still stands.

>> If you come up with a reasonable "first time" inducement (special low
>> price, discount, etc.) you wouldn't have to worry about being
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> be "Yeah but last year you charged X" shortly before they put the
> phone down and called the next one on the list.

I do agree with you on this.  Don't bid down a "first time" price.  Instead,
offer a promotion that doesn't actually cost you any money, for example one
free print for a sitting, or a discount on a package deal - something that
forces the customer to actually buy something in order to receive the
promotion.  Simply giving them a cut rate on the shoot itself costs you
money for nothing in return.

Signature

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Kohary        mike at kohary dot com        http://www.kohary.com

         Karma Photography:  http://www.karmaphotography.com
    Seahawks Historical Database:  http://www.kohary.com/seahawks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

SVTKate - 24 Feb 2005 02:36 GMT
Bill, that is an excellent suggestion!

| > Thank you for the sage advice.  This bid is due tomorrow and I will be
| > working on producing one that is fair to all involved.  I will keep
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
| worry about being saddled with the expectation of a similarly low
| price in the future.
BillB - 24 Feb 2005 03:09 GMT
> Bill, that is an excellent suggestion!

 Thanks.  It might not be the best solution for everyone, but the
idea is to be flexible or creative.  Sometimes known as "thinking
outside the box." :)
Mike Kohary - 24 Feb 2005 05:10 GMT
> My overhead is extremely low, so the profit I will make is more than
> substantial, even if I keep the bid to 75% of last year's price.

I know you've made your bid by now, so this is all moot, but my late 2 cents
anyway...  ;)  The thing is, you don't want a)your clients to expect this
low price from you always, or b)appear desperate and cheap for the work.
When I shop for a big job of some type, I take bids and compare prices, and
then I not only weed out the very highest prices, but also the very lowest.
It's because I'm afraid the low-priced folks are low-priced for a reason -
they're not very good at what they do, and they're desperate to pick up
business.  I'd bet many (most?) people think this way when bidding out a
project.  Perception means a lot.

> I have no illusions regarding the quality of my photography: I'm good
> - I'm not great.  I know that there are many of you out there with a
> better eye and much more experience.  The edge I have is unmatched
> customer service, extremely fast turn around, and the willingness to
> go the extra mile to satisfy my clients needs and expectations.

It's good to be modest with yourself, which helps give incentive for
constant improvement.  But don't ever show that to your clients.  ;)  Again,
it's about perception, so don't undersell yourself either.  When you make a
bid, project the utmost confidence in your abilities to deliver the best
possible work, and work that is better than your competitors.

> Your point is valid regarding the lowering of prices.  Nevertheless,
> the last thing I want any of my clients thinking is that they got
> ripped off.

If you do a terrific job, they won't feel "ripped off".

Signature

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Kohary        mike at kohary dot com        http://www.kohary.com

         Karma Photography:  http://www.karmaphotography.com
    Seahawks Historical Database:  http://www.kohary.com/seahawks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Skinner1@hotmail.com - 23 Feb 2005 12:00 GMT
>Group:
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>Thank You,
>Noel St. John

Nawww.....

Just bid it and ask for comparrisons. Most times they will let you
know.... but if they don't, adjust on your next bid.
Christian Bonanno - 24 Feb 2005 16:30 GMT
> Group:
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Thank You,
> Noel St. John

Hey Noel, I hope you view this as constructive. You have too many photos
on your web site and mot of them are boring. You may may been interested
in there people but that does not transfer to other people being
interested in them. Most of your "faces" series have got to got. I feel
like I am looking at someone's scrap book and they demean some other of
your photos.

Yeah, just too many photos.
Noel St. John - 25 Feb 2005 05:40 GMT
>> Group:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
>Yeah, just too many photos.

Perhaps you are right.  Nevertheless, I post these photos for the
benefit of my clients who seem to enjoy them.  I also generate more
than a few incidental sales from people to whom I give my business
card and then see themselves on the web.  

Your criticism is well taken in the name of improvement.  I have been
consulting with a professional web developer to streamline my website
without compromising the value to my customers.

Thanks for taking the time to have a look and your comments are
greatly appreciated.
characterzero - 27 Feb 2005 19:01 GMT
yes yes.  i was going to say the same thing.  at least in your
portfolio section, cut down the amount of pics to the very best.  it's
a lot less to look at to get an idea of the best quality you can
achieve.  also might want to look at your white balance and possibly
change color temp. for certain situations...
  best of luck!
 
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