Photo Forum / General Photo Topics / General Topics / April 2008
Questions/opinions about variable-density optical audio track recording.
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Green Xenon [Radium] - 22 Apr 2008 01:54 GMT Hi:
I am not asking homework questions. The questions are out of my interest in variable-density film audio.
My favorite analog audio storage medium consist of the optical equivalent of magnetic tape. It is similar to the optical tracks of old analog B&W films -- except without the video or any images. My optical tape records audio optically on a tape using variable-density encoding [not variable-area] and is monaural. As with any photography, the tape must not be exposed to light before recording or development and must not be exposed to extraneous light [light other than the optical audio signal] during or before recording/development. Such exposure will corrupt the film. After recording. The film is developed using photographic chemicals. This tape is like a reel-to-reel [i.e. not a cassette] film using optics and chemistry instead of magnetism.
What characteristics in the film material itself [e.g. the chemicals within the film, "grains", etc. etc.] determines the audio quality [e.g. the bandwidth, dynamic range, SNR, clipping point, treble response, etc. etc.] of a VD track?
What types of audio artifacts are specifically-associated with the variable-density optical tracks of B&W films? What are these artifacts caused by?
In magnetic audio cassette, the maximum frequency that can be recorded is determined by the tape speed. What determines the maximum frequency that can be recording onto a variable-density optical track of a B&W film? Is tape speed still a factor here?
Movietone kicks photophone's @$$ because the former uses variable-density while the latter uses variable-area.
I've listened to both variable-density and variable-area. I prefer the former over the latter.
I don't have this analog audio storage device I described. It is something I would like to have but I don't. While it is possible to make this device, I am probably the only individual in the world who wants it. Nobody else cares for something like this. This is mainly because I am the only one who enjoys the artifacts associated with the variable-density audio of old B&W movies. Most everyone else prefers VA over VD. Not to mention, most also prefer magnetic over optical.
The problem is my film device does not exist because there is no demand for it. I am the only one in the world who cares to have such a device. No one else has any interest in the audio quality of the old VD audio tracks.
As for performance levels I would like the artifacts specifically associated with VD tracks to be clearly noticeable without ruining the musical quality of the audio.
Two things I do not want -- at all -- are any clipping or aliasing. At the same time, I want high-quality treble. I am a fan of treble but not bass. I do not want there to be any distortion that specifically results from sounds being too loud [e.g. clipping] or from the sounds being too high in frequency [e.g. aliasing]. Yet I still want all treble that any human can hear to be encoded. The film and the rest of the equipment should be able to handle at least 1.5x the loudest sound a human ear can be exposed to without any pain or damage. Treble response should be up to 40 kHz or higher while the clipping point should be at 144 dB or above.
For some reason, I find the artifacts associated with B&W VD tracks to be appetizing. Even I can't understand why. It's something about the noise/distortions [other than those caused by excess amplitude/frequency] in VD that I enjoy. It's like the sound of fresh garlic bread baking in clay oven fueled by bituminous coal. That's the best description I can give.
I've listened to audio artifacts from very old B&W movies [which used VD]. That's where I get my opinion. I've compared it with movies that came out later [with VA instead of VD]. From there, is where I got my preference for VD over VA.
Regards,
Radium
Ken Hart - 22 Apr 2008 04:58 GMT > Hi: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > the bandwidth, dynamic range, SNR, clipping point, treble response, etc. > etc.] of a VD track? This is completely out of my area, but I'll throw out some ideas/concepts.
Based on your comments, the audio output depends on the density of the exposed film. Film does not always have straight-line response to light. Additionally, the developing process may not always cause a straight-line density response. For example, if a particular audio tone goes from 10% to 90% electronically, the film's response may be 10% to 50%. Additionally, the developement may move the film's response so that the final result might be 30% to 100%. You have to consider the base density of the film, and the contrast of the film.
As for the characteristics of the film, a finer grain film will allow a quicker change in density, allowing a higher frequency sound to be recorded for a given speed of transport.
If I've completely missed the mark of your post, please re-read my first sentence!
Green Xenon [Radium] - 22 Apr 2008 06:05 GMT Thanks for your response.
> Based on your comments, the audio output depends on the density of the > exposed film. Film does not always have straight-line response to light. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > 30% to 100%. You have to consider the base density of the film, and the > contrast of the film. What do you mean by "audio tone goes from 10% to 90%"? "Goes from"??
> As for the characteristics of the film, a finer grain film will allow a > quicker change in density, allowing a higher frequency sound to be recorded > for a given speed of transport. What determines the dynamic range in the VD track?
Ken Hart - 22 Apr 2008 13:29 GMT > Thanks for your response. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > What do you mean by "audio tone goes from 10% to 90%"? "Goes from"?? I was referring to the Amplitude or volume
>> As for the characteristics of the film, a finer grain film will allow a >> quicker change in density, allowing a higher frequency sound to be >> recorded for a given speed of transport. > > What determines the dynamic range in the VD track? I would guess the quantity of discrete density steps or shades of gray that the film can reproduce, the recording exposure lamp can create and the 'pickup' system can intrepret.
Green Xenon [Radium] - 22 Apr 2008 21:00 GMT > As for the characteristics of the film, a finer grain film will allow a > quicker change in density, allowing a higher frequency sound to be recorded > for a given speed of transport. What is the finest grain that can be achieved?
Ken Hart - 23 Apr 2008 02:33 GMT >> As for the characteristics of the film, a finer grain film will allow a >> quicker change in density, allowing a higher frequency sound to be >> recorded for a given speed of transport. > > What is the finest grain that can be achieved? Generally speaking, the lower the film speed (the sensitivity of the film to light expressed as "ISO"), the finer the film's grain. Check with the manufacturer to determine the finest grain, usually expressed as line pairs. I have never used a film in the manner you are exploring, so I can't give exact answers; I can only answer in terms of 'pictorial' use of film.
Green Xenon [Radium] - 23 Apr 2008 02:40 GMT >>> As for the characteristics of the film, a finer grain film will allow a >>> quicker change in density, allowing a higher frequency sound to be [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I have never used a film in the manner you are exploring, so I can't give > exact answers; I can only answer in terms of 'pictorial' use of film. Can a film with a lower ISO handle a louder sound without clipping than a film with a higher ISO? I ask because I get the feeling that if there grains are finer, the film can record more levels of amplitude -- just like a 16-bit audio file can handle 65536 loudness levels while an 8-bit audio file can handle only 256 loudness levels. I could be very wrong though. Not sure if this is a good analogy at all.
Ken Hart - 23 Apr 2008 05:33 GMT >>>> As for the characteristics of the film, a finer grain film will allow a >>>> quicker change in density, allowing a higher frequency sound to be [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > audio file can handle only 256 loudness levels. I could be very wrong > though. Not sure if this is a good analogy at all. Yes. a finer grain film should be able to handle more discretely different loudness levels, however, the film developement will determine will the first and last loudness level will be. (There are films which are designed to render exposure as either black or white- such films, while very fine grained would yield little dynamic range.) To continue your analogy (which isn't really far off), imagine setting all the lower bits to one (or zero). Or imagine setting the higher bits all to zero (or one). Under developement or over developement could cause this. Additionally, (just to throw a curveball into your analogy!), the bits in the middle are not evenly spaced. I think that if you check out the response curve of different films, this may become more clear, or hopelessly muddled! Film doesn't have a straight line response to the amount of light hitting it. Whether that response matches audio's log curve, I don't know.
Green Xenon [Radium] - 29 Apr 2008 02:35 GMT >>>>> As for the characteristics of the film, a finer grain film will allow a >>>>> quicker change in density, allowing a higher frequency sound to be [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > line response to the amount of light hitting it. Whether that response > matches audio's log curve, I don't know. It seems here that a finer grain density can handle both a louder volume [without clipping] and higher frequencies [without aliasing] than a coarser grain.
Does an audio track with finer grain density have any disadvantage when compared to an audio track with coarser grain? I wouldn't think so at this point but I could be wrong.
Ken Hart - 29 Apr 2008 19:24 GMT snip
> It seems here that a finer grain density can handle both a louder volume > [without clipping] and higher frequencies [without aliasing] than a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > compared to an audio track with coarser grain? I wouldn't think so at this > point but I could be wrong. Fine grain films generally are slower speed, that is they require more light for exposure.
You need to look into the response curve of the film in question. If you were to raise the volume at a linear rate and the exposure light increases at a linear rate, the film may or may not react at a linear rate. Different films respond differently and the manufacturer's curves will show that. On the other hand, human hearing response is not linear either. Just guessing, but I suspect a linear response is not the best bet.
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