Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
PhotoKB Home
Discussion Groups
Digital Photography
Digital PhotoDSLR CamerasZLR CamerasPoint & Shoot Cameras
Film Photography
35 mmLarge FormatMedium formatDarkroomFilm and LabsOther Equipment
Photo Technique
Nature PhotographyPeople PhotographyTechnique General
General Photo Topics
General TopicsAustralian PhotographyUK Photography
DirectoryPhoto Clubs

Photo Forum / General Photo Topics / General Topics / May 2008

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Cancelled commission

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
HarrisVIII - 03 Apr 2008 21:30 GMT
Hi,

I've just had a client cancel a commission to take images of a building
during its construction. I have written instructions from the client to
take photos for them and had already spent an hour or so at the site
taking some preliminary shots.

This client has apparently now changed their mind and taken on another
photographer informing me that my services are no longer required. I
should add that they have not seen any of my work so far and I have no
idea why they have cancelled. Cheeky gits have even requested I meet
with the replacement photographer!

What can I reasonably and legally charge this client? Can I only really
just charge for the hour already spent on site or can I increase the fee
as I had already started working and perhaps include some claim for work
turned down on the back of this job? It would have been a good one
lasting several months.

Very odd situation that I can't seem to get to the bottom of but I'd
love to pinch this time waster for as much as possible. Would appreciate
any input.
TIA.
David H. Lipman - 03 Apr 2008 22:45 GMT
From: "HarrisVIII" <acphotREMOVE_THIS@gmail.com>

| Hi,
|
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
| any input.
| TIA.

I would presume, that would be based upon the contract signed by the potential client.  For
example, a "cancellation fee" clause.

Signature

Dave
http://www.claymania.com/removal-trojan-adware.html
Multi-AV - http://www.pctipp.ch/downloads/dl/35905.asp

Wilson - 04 Apr 2008 03:17 GMT
> From: "HarrisVIII" <acphotREMOVE_THIS@gmail.com>
>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> potential client.  For
> example, a "cancellation fee" clause.

I don't think he would be asking what to do if there had been a contract in
force.  I suggest he charge what he thinks is fair and see how that goes.

Next get a standard services contract together for future jobs.
David H. Lipman - 04 Apr 2008 03:40 GMT
From: "Wilson" <w@topdog.com>

>> I would presume, that would be based upon the contract signed by the
>> potential client.  For
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
|
| Next get a standard services contract together for future jobs.

You're right.  No contract, SOL.  Learn from the experience.

Signature

Dave
http://www.claymania.com/removal-trojan-adware.html
Multi-AV - http://www.pctipp.ch/downloads/dl/35905.asp

krishnananda - 03 Apr 2008 23:06 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> any input.
> TIA.

A google search for "photography contract" finds this clause:

"H. Cancellations
Cancellations and postponements: Client is responsible for payment of
all expenses incurred during the commission up to the time of
cancellation, plus 50% of creative fee. If notice of cancellation is
given less than two business days before shoot date, Client will be
charged 100% of the creative fee."

The whole contract can be seen at
http://www.johngress.com/info/contract.php

If this or something like it was not in your contract then you can only
reasonably expect the client to pay for work actually done. In this case
that would be 1 hour on site and any prep work you had to do. If your
contract includes provisions for offsite work, a general daily fee,
mileage reimbursement, etc. then you can charge for them too.

If your contract consists of only an hourly or daily fee then that is
all you can charge. You might look at the ASMP's model contracts for
future work. These kinds of charges can't be instituted retroactively.

Signature

k

Floyd L. Davidson - 03 Apr 2008 23:10 GMT
>Hi,
>
>I've just had a client cancel a commission to take images of a building
>during its construction. I have written instructions from the client to
>take photos for them and had already spent an hour or so at the site
>taking some preliminary shots.

The legal specifics depend on exactly what your "written
instructions" actually say.  For example, if it lists a
specific amount of work in terms of hours, product, or
money, and is a signed letter, then it would appear to
be a contract, and that you could literally sue them for
non-performance with an expectation of winning.

Of course if it is for $400 worth of work, a lawyer
would cost far more than that...  but if it is for
$40,000, you should obviously be seeking the
professional services of an attorney.

>This client has apparently now changed their mind and taken on another
>photographer informing me that my services are no longer required. I
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>turned down on the back of this job? It would have been a good one
>lasting several months.

Assuming this is not a large enough dollar amount to
warrant an attorney...  you can bill them for time,
provide them with whatever product you have completed
(and bill them for it, whether they want it or not),
*and* you can also bill them a reasonable amount as a
cancellation fee.  What defines "reasonable" is a matter
of opinion, but certainly it cannot exceed the amount
that you would have billed if you had completed the job.
(Don't laugh...  it is common in the industry that I
retired from, telecommunications, to write contracts for
services that include a very simple formula to pro-rate
a cancellation fee: it equals the percentage of
remaining contract!)

Note that unless your contract actually spells out each
part of the above, they can easily ignore your bill too!

And perhaps if you hit them with anything that they feel
is unreasonable, they might just do that.  With what
they think is a reasonable bill, they might just pay it
to keep you from sending it to a collection agency (an
action that should perhaps be very carefully made
obvious as a potential result of non-payment, but not
something you'd want to club them with either).

You probably should tread lightly to begin with, and
amoung other things find out why they cancelled.

>Very odd situation that I can't seem to get to the bottom of but I'd
>love to pinch this time waster for as much as possible. Would appreciate
>any input.
>TIA.

Signature

Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)              floyd@apaflo.com

Chris H - 04 Apr 2008 07:34 GMT
>Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>idea why they have cancelled. Cheeky gits have even requested I meet
>with the replacement photographer!

Not a problem... You have a 2 hour charge so far plus  charge to meet
the new photographers.

BTW you may have done absolutely nothing wrong it is possibly whilst
client was talking about it to partner (either sense) or friend they
said my son/brother/nice does photography and will do a good job lets
use some we know as a favour to them.

>What can I reasonably and legally charge this client?

Legally and reasonably are two different things.  However if you are
"reasonable" it will get you further than being legal in the first
instance.

As for "legally" you don't give any indication of where in the world you
are. The law varies. Are you here or somewhere foreign  like the US?

>Can I only really
>just charge for the hour already spent on site or can I increase the fee
>as I had already started working and perhaps include some claim for work
>turned down on the back of this job? It would have been a good one
>lasting several months.

Depends on the contract. I would think you can charge for the couple of
hours (a half day) if it was a large project they have cancelled after
you have started a half day  (or a day ) is not unreasonable. I would
also change for your time to meet the new photographer (who I will bet
has some sort of relationship to the client)

>Very odd situation that I can't seem to get to the bottom of but I'd
>love to pinch this time waster for as much as possible. Would appreciate
>any input.

Be reasonable. ... You will get a better deal that if you go in
"legally" with all guns blazing. You should get a better result. Also IF
you have to go legal you can show you were "reasonable" to start with
and it puts the others on the back foot to start with.

Finally GET YOUR CONTRACTS SORTED OUT BEFORE YOU START!
Signature

\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org      www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

Peter - 04 Apr 2008 16:52 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> input.
> TIA.

The answer depends upon where you and your former client are located.
Different states have different rules. From what you post there definitely
looks like there is some monies due you. But, remember there are multiple
sides to every story. As someone else posted, try to work things out
amicably. If they are stubborn, you may be able to go to a small claims
court. No legal fees, just state your case, the court will listen to both
sides and tends to do substantial justice. If you go that route, bring
everything you have relating to the issues and do your presentation on
point. The court is not interested in the  color of your tie when you made
the deal.

HTH

Signature

Peter

Burt Johnson - 05 Apr 2008 06:34 GMT
Personally I'd just drop it and move on if it is only a couple hours
invested.  Bummer, but no cost of consequence out of pocket, and it
wouldn't be worth the angst of collecting in a situation like this.

Signature

- Burt Johnson
 MindStorm, Inc.
 http://www.mindstorm-inc.com/software.html

Pete D - 05 Apr 2008 23:24 GMT
> Personally I'd just drop it and move on if it is only a couple hours
> invested.  Bummer, but no cost of consequence out of pocket, and it
> wouldn't be worth the angst of collecting in a situation like this.

If however you have turned down other work and they have cancelled at short
notice then you have a reasonable claim on some payment.
Burt Johnson - 06 Apr 2008 01:10 GMT
> > Personally I'd just drop it and move on if it is only a couple hours
> > invested.  Bummer, but no cost of consequence out of pocket, and it
> > wouldn't be worth the angst of collecting in a situation like this.
>
> If however you have turned down other work and they have cancelled at short
> notice then you have a reasonable claim on some payment.

I don't believe the OP said that was the case.  It didn't sound like
such a large commission that it would have likely precluded other work
anyway.

These things happen.  I am a software developer rather than professional
photographer, but I have had software projects evaporate on starting day
or after the first session -- sometimes when they discover it isn't
going to be as cheap or quick as they had hoped.  Once when the
chemistry just wasn't right, and it was clear we would not work well
together.

My approach has been to never charge for less than a week's work.  I've
had it happen half a dozen times in the past 20 years that I've done
contract programming.

Signature

- Burt Johnson
 MindStorm, Inc.
 http://www.mindstorm-inc.com/software.html

Pete D - 07 Apr 2008 10:03 GMT
>> > Personally I'd just drop it and move on if it is only a couple hours
>> > invested.  Bummer, but no cost of consequence out of pocket, and it
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> had it happen half a dozen times in the past 20 years that I've done
> contract programming.

Just saying if!!
Robert Coe - 03 May 2008 03:54 GMT
: > Personally I'd just drop it and move on if it is only a couple hours
: > invested.  Bummer, but no cost of consequence out of pocket, and it
: > wouldn't be worth the angst of collecting in a situation like this.
:
: If however you have turned down other work and they have cancelled at short
: notice then you have a reasonable claim on some payment.

If your contract says you do.
The One - 05 Apr 2008 10:06 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> input.
> TIA.

If you had a proper business instead of a micky mouse one, you would bill
the client accordingly and make this clear from step one.

Your (ex) client is taking the piss out of you, but it seems you don't have
the guts to take the piss back.

Send a bill for your time used already, this includes any post processing.
Vance - 05 Apr 2008 19:09 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> any input.
> TIA.

I have a clause in my contracts that covers cancellations and all of
the terms of the assignment are covered in the general contract,
including the period of time it will last.  I also get 50% up front,
which I retain if the contract is cancelled less than 72 hours before
I am to do the job unless certain conditions apply regarding things
that are not in the clients control.

If I am going to scout out a sight, I usually do that before the
contract is negotiated and it is simply a part of doing business.
However, if I do something at the direction of the clients over what
would be normal, or is not covered in the contract, I bill them for
that separately and immediately.  In your situation, not knowing what
the actual understanding was, you may have put in that shooting time
pro bono, as it were.  That is, if you didn't have an understanding
that you would be taking prelim shots and charging for that.

Some people will walk away from a situation like yours if it is
reasonably billable, but I am in business and I can't pragmatically
afford too.  I insist that clients meet their contractual obligations,
just like I work very hard to meet mine.  I don't get all mad about it
and start making threats, etc., but If I have to get legal, then I
will.  That's only happened once.

If you're an amateur (and I have great respect for amateurs) taking
pictures is a sideline for you.  Walking away is really a personal
decision and it may be best to chalk everything up to experience and
move on.  If you're just starting out as a pro, then you need to
really tighten up at least your policies and procedures in this area.

Vance

Vance
Pat - 06 Apr 2008 02:18 GMT
> Hi,
>
> I've just had a client cancel a commission to take images of a building
> during its construction. I have written instructions from the client to
> take photos for them and had already spent an hour or so at the site
> taking some preliminary shots.

If he wants your preliminary shots he should pay for your hour.  If he wants
more of your time I would ask him to pay for it plus the time previously
spent.  It costs little to send out a bill or two to see if he pays it.  He
may be much more willing to pay if the amount is very fair.
HarrisVIII - 07 Apr 2008 17:01 GMT
Thanks for all the replies - there are reasons why this was a little bit
more of a relaxed agreement which I'll not go into now. It just gets
annoying when these things turn sour. I'm doing some other work
for the same organisation in a different department so I think I'll make
a reasonable charge for a few hours work, move on and chalk it up to
experience.

I hope my replacement is crap! :)

Signature

Muttley!! Doooooo Something!!
Fix Outlook Express - http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/
as recommended by your friendly neighbourhood MeltDown.

Robert Coe - 03 May 2008 04:00 GMT
: Thanks for all the replies - there are reasons why this was a little
: bit more of a relaxed agreement which I'll not go into now. It just
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
:
: I hope my replacement is crap! :)

Actually, you hope that he does a good job but knows his limitations and
recommends you for some of the follow-on work.

Bob
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2008 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.