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Photo Forum / General Photo Topics / General Topics / January 2008

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Small Apertures and Neutral Density Filters

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Dudley Hanks - 28 Jan 2008 21:11 GMT
I've noticed that many point-and-shoots have a minimum aperture of about
f-8.  If a guy wanted to increase the depth of field beyond that provided by
this aperture, would a neutral density filter work?

My Canon A720 can be fitted with an adapter that will accept filters, etc,
so I'm wondering if a neutral density filter would increase the
depth-of-field, or whether it would just slow down the shutter.

Wondering,
Dudley
Ken Hart - 28 Jan 2008 21:31 GMT
> I've noticed that many point-and-shoots have a minimum aperture of about
> f-8.  If a guy wanted to increase the depth of field beyond that provided
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Wondering,
> Dudley

A neutral density filter will have no effect on the depth of field by
itself. Only the aperature setting will dtermine depth of field. Obviously,
if the ND filter causes the lens to open up, depth of field will decrease.
Dudley Hanks - 28 Jan 2008 22:15 GMT
>> I've noticed that many point-and-shoots have a minimum aperture of about
>> f-8.  If a guy wanted to increase the depth of field beyond that provided
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Obviously, if the ND filter causes the lens to open up, depth of field
> will decrease.

Thanks for the info;  I appreciate it.

Take Care,
Dudley
Dudley Hanks - 28 Jan 2008 22:26 GMT
>> I've noticed that many point-and-shoots have a minimum aperture of about
>> f-8.  If a guy wanted to increase the depth of field beyond that provided
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Obviously, if the ND filter causes the lens to open up, depth of field
> will decrease.

So, a neutral density filter would be the tool to use if a guy wanted to
decrease the depth-of-field while maintaining a particular shutter speed?
Or, it would be used to maintain a particular aperture / shutter speed while
moving up an ISO range (perhaps to get a grainier appearance with faster
film)?

Seeing new possibilities,
Dudley
Paul Furman - 28 Jan 2008 22:45 GMT
>>> I've noticed that many point-and-shoots have a minimum aperture of about
>>> f-8.  If a guy wanted to increase the depth of field beyond that provided
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Seeing new possibilities,

If you want a long exposure in bright light to show motion or blur out
moving water & such. If you want a wide aperture & shallow DOF in bright
daylight. If you are trying to synch the flash for fill with a low max
synch speed in daylight.

For more DOF, use a wider lens. Any smaller of an aperture than f/5/6 or
f/8 on a small sensor and diffraction degrades the whole image. Check
out the interactive chart thing in the middle of this page:
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/diffraction-photography.htm
Dudley Hanks - 28 Jan 2008 22:53 GMT
>>>> I've noticed that many point-and-shoots have a minimum aperture of
>>>> about f-8.  If a guy wanted to increase the depth of field beyond that
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> the interactive chart thing in the middle of this page:
> http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/diffraction-photography.htm
Thanks, Paul,

I think I'm getting a better grasp on this, now.

I've never used neutral density filters before, so I'm just starting to see
how they can give me more control over my images.  I'm doing a lot more work
in bright lights, lately, so these filters are becoming more and more useful
all the time.

Hoping the weather will warm up so I can try some of my new ideas,
Dudley
Cats - 28 Jan 2008 23:23 GMT
> >> I've noticed that many point-and-shoots have a minimum aperture of about
> >> f-8.  If a guy wanted to increase the depth of field beyond that provided
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> So, a neutral density filter would be the tool to use if a guy wanted to
> decrease the depth-of-field while maintaining a particular shutter speed?

Yes, or if one wants a slow shutter speed.  I use one for doing
watefalls so I can use 1/5 second or thereabouts.  I also use slowest
ISO as it gives the best quality image.

> Or, it would be used to maintain a particular aperture / shutter speed while
> moving up an ISO range (perhaps to get a grainier appearance with faster
> film)?

Unfortunately the noise on digital cameras is usualy ugly, unlike film
grain.  You can get plug-ins for post-processing that do a prettier
job of producing grainy effects, though a lot of them cost money.
Dudley Hanks - 28 Jan 2008 23:31 GMT
On Jan 28, 10:26 pm, "Dudley Hanks" <hanks.dud...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Ken Hart" <kwha...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> So, a neutral density filter would be the tool to use if a guy wanted to
> decrease the depth-of-field while maintaining a particular shutter speed?

Yes, or if one wants a slow shutter speed.  I use one for doing
watefalls so I can use 1/5 second or thereabouts.  I also use slowest
ISO as it gives the best quality image.

> Or, it would be used to maintain a particular aperture / shutter speed
> while
> moving up an ISO range (perhaps to get a grainier appearance with faster
> film)?

Unfortunately the noise on digital cameras is usualy ugly, unlike film
grain.  You can get plug-ins for post-processing that do a prettier
job of producing grainy effects, though a lot of them cost money.

Then, I take it the only way to increase the depth-of-field would be to move
back and zoom in?  Or, put some type of teleconverter adapter on the lens?

Hoping there is a way,
Dudley
Dudley Hanks - 28 Jan 2008 23:49 GMT
> On Jan 28, 10:26 pm, "Dudley Hanks" <hanks.dud...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> "Ken Hart" <kwha...@verizon.net> wrote in message
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
> Hoping there is a way,
> Dudley

No, wait a minute, don't tell me, I got that backwards.  I think my brain
has been frozen by the cold temps (minus forty-eight degrees Celsius after
factoring in wind-chill).  It's the second time today I got something
backwards.

The thing to do would actually be to move in and zoom out;  that should
increase depth-of-field.  Anyone who's played around with dof and
point-and-shoots enough to know?

Somewhat embarrassed,
Dudley
Rob Morley - 29 Jan 2008 04:49 GMT
> The thing to do would actually be to move in and zoom out;  that should
> increase depth-of-field.  Anyone who's played around with dof and
> point-and-shoots enough to know?

DOF works the same for all cameras, it's just the focal length and
film/sensor size that varies.  Here's a handy online calculator

http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

and here's a VB one you can download and run offline

http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/technical/depth_of_field_calc.html

Just change the numbers and see what effect it has.
Dudley Hanks - 29 Jan 2008 05:01 GMT
>> The thing to do would actually be to move in and zoom out;  that should
>> increase depth-of-field.  Anyone who's played around with dof and
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Just change the numbers and see what effect it has.

Hey, Rob, thanks a bunch.

I'll give it a try and see what I come up with.

Take Care,
Dudley
Colin_D - 29 Jan 2008 01:17 GMT
> On Jan 28, 10:26 pm, "Dudley Hanks" <hanks.dud...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> "Ken Hart" <kwha...@verizon.net> wrote in message
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> Hoping there is a way,
> Dudley

No, sorry.  Ultimately, DoF is related to the ratio of object size to
image size.  The math is formidable, but basically if you fill the frame
with someone's head, then step back and zoom till the frame is again
filled with their head, the Dof will be unchanged.  Perspective will
change, but DoF won't. Provided you haven't changed the aperture, of course.

Colin D.

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Ken Hart - 29 Jan 2008 15:37 GMT
snip
> Then, I take it the only way to increase the depth-of-field would be to
> move back and zoom in?  Or, put some type of teleconverter adapter on the
> lens?

Depth of field is greater at distances than close up. For example, (these
numbers are made up) focus at 4 feet and DOF might be from 3.5 feet to 4.5
feet. Focus at 10 feet and DOF might be from 7 feet to infinity, for the
same f/stop.

Longer focal length lens generally have less DOF at a particular distance
than short focal length lenses. So for maximm DOF, use a wide angle (short)
lens.

I grabbed a couple lenses off the shelf, and made these rough observations
(these are 35mm film camera lenses):
35mm lens, f/16, focus at 8', DOF scale says 4' to infinity
50mm lens, f/16, focus at 8' DOF scale says 5' to 15'
135mm lens, f/16, focus at 8', DOF scale says 7.5' to 9'
Hyperfocal distance (the distance at which depth of field is the closest
distance to infinity) for the 35mm at f/16 is 8' (4' to infinity), for the
50mm at f/16 is 15' (9' to infinity), and for the 125mm at f/16 is 75' (40'
to infinity). These figures are not the result of testing, but rather
reading the tiny scales on the lenses, so there may be some margin of error,
but the general idea is there.

Moving back and zooming in (or moving in and zooming out) will change the
prespective of your subject. For example, back when cars were boats and had
big tail fins, advertising photos were often shot with a slight wide lens,
closeup at a low angle. This made the car look even longer and the tailfins
even bigger. This was not  caused by the lens, but by the closeness and the
angle. Conversely, a long lens tends to compress foreground and background.
Again this is not because of the lens, but because the foreground and
background are so far away.

As for using your zoom and/or teleconverter to increase DOF, that's another
ball of wax. The construciton of a zoom lens can have effect on the DOF.
Whenever possible, I like to stay with prime lenses; usually they are
brighter and better quality (usually!).
Dudley Hanks - 29 Jan 2008 21:35 GMT
> snip

> Depth of field is greater at distances than close up. For example, (these
> numbers are made up) focus at 4 feet and DOF might be from 3.5 feet to 4.5
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> the DOF. Whenever possible, I like to stay with prime lenses; usually they
> are brighter and better quality (usually!).
Unfortunately, my Canon A720 leaves me with a limited range of choice when
it comes to depth of field.

Rob Morley sent me a link to a handy on-line dof calculater, which I think
will help a lot.  And, the info you gave me above helps to get an over-all
"perspective" of what will happen as I move my zoom around looking for just
the right depth of field.

However, I'm still left wondering a bit about the attachments that are
available for my particular Camera.

For instance, there is a 1.7x teleconverter available from Canon that will
increase my 80 to 210 zoom by about 70%.  But, if I understand
teleconverters properly, that should also change the aperture as well as the
focal length.  This means that the minimum aperture will end up somewhere
around f/13.6, which is a fair bit smaller than the minimum of f/8 I've been
told will work with my camera's sensor.

Does this mean that the images produced in the longer zoom ranges will end
up with a nice depth of field but be excessively soft?  In which case, I'd
probably be better off just trying to get closer and do the best I can with
whatever dof I can achieve.

Thinking mathematically for the first time in many years,
Dudley
Paul Furman - 29 Jan 2008 21:47 GMT
>> snip
>
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
> Does this mean that the images produced in the longer zoom ranges will end
> up with a nice depth of field but be excessively soft?

Soft and less DOF.

> In which case, I'd
> probably be better off just trying to get closer and do the best I can with
> whatever dof I can achieve.
>
> Thinking mathematically for the first time in many years,
> Dudley
Dudley Hanks - 29 Jan 2008 22:15 GMT
>>> snip
>>
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
>
> So, I lose in both cases.  Guess I'll save my money.
Thanks going out to Paul, Ken, Rob and others who responded,
Dudley
Peter - 29 Jan 2008 01:27 GMT
>>> I've noticed that many point-and-shoots have a minimum aperture of about
>>> f-8.  If a guy wanted to increase the depth of field beyond that
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> Seeing new possibilities,
> Dudley

I  use it to increase exposure time to get a flat water surface. silky
waterfalls, or any time I want a blurred effect.

If you have the money, you might want to try a variable ND filter.

Signature

Peter

Dudley Hanks - 29 Jan 2008 01:38 GMT
>>>> I've noticed that many point-and-shoots have a minimum aperture of
>>>> about f-8.  If a guy wanted to increase the depth of field beyond that
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> If you have the money, you might want to try a variable ND filter.

Thanks for the info, Peter.

As noted before, I've just started playing with neutral density filters, so
I wasn't aware that a variable one is available.  I'll have a few things to
check out at the camera shop as soon as I can get to one.

Snowed in,
Dudley
Peter - 30 Jan 2008 00:25 GMT
> Thanks for the info, Peter.
>
> As noted before, I've just started playing with neutral density filters,
> so I wasn't aware that a variable one is available.  I'll have a few
> things to check out at the camera shop as soon as I can get to one.

I have a lot to learn too. As this technology advances our learning never
ends. My real preference is simply to improve my photos and try to share my
limited knowledge.

I am in a crazy process of selecting about 30 images for a website, from the
thousands I have on my drives.
For some reason I think that 30 is a good number. One of the major issues I
face is trying to somehow find some unification of the images so they don't
look like the hodge podgy they are.

Signature

Peter

Dudley Hanks - 30 Jan 2008 20:12 GMT
>> Thanks for the info, Peter.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> I face is trying to somehow find some unification of the images so they
> don't look like the hodge podgy they are.

Sounds like a formidable task;  I don't envy all the work you'll be doing.

When you've got the pics up, make sure you post the link so we can all
enjoy.

Take Care,
Dudley
Peter - 29 Jan 2008 01:33 GMT
>>> I've noticed that many point-and-shoots have a minimum aperture of about
>>> f-8.  If a guy wanted to increase the depth of field beyond that
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> Seeing new possibilities,
> Dudley

I  use it to increase exposure time to get a flat water surface. silky
waterfalls, or any time I want a blurred effect. If you really want to have
fun try a waterfall at 1 second, or ocean waaves at 30 seconds.

If you have the money, you might want to try a variable ND filter.

Signature

Peter

Ken Hart - 29 Jan 2008 15:08 GMT
>>> I've noticed that many point-and-shoots have a minimum aperture of about
>>> f-8.  If a guy wanted to increase the depth of field beyond that
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> Seeing new possibilities,
> Dudley

That will work. Although you didn't ask, there are also graduated ND filters
that are 'split'; that is, half might be a 1-stop ND and half might be
2-stops ND. This could be used when taking a picture of perhaps a landscape
where the sky is very bright and the foreground is dark. You position the
filter so that the greater density cuts back the light from the sky. Also
you can get square ND filters (Cokin?) that can be held over a portion of
the lens.

See any more possibilities?
Dudley Hanks - 29 Jan 2008 15:27 GMT
>>>> I've noticed that many point-and-shoots have a minimum aperture of
>>>> about f-8.  If a guy wanted to increase the depth of field beyond that
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> See any more possibilities?

Definitely.

I'm thinking that another variation would be quite useful, if available.
Namely, if a filter is darker around the outside perimeter than it is in the
center, it could be used to darken a bright background without having to use
excessive fill light.  Kind of like a vignette filter, but without diffusing
the image

If such a filter is available, it would be nice for the neutral density to
fill approximately three quarters of the area, just leaving the center as a
hotspot.

Liking the possibilities,
Dudley
Ken Hart - 29 Jan 2008 19:28 GMT
snip
> Definitely.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> fill approximately three quarters of the area, just leaving the center as
> a hotspot.

Don't go running to the Patent Office!
Check out "Lindahl", that's the brand matte box that I have. This is a
bellows like device that mounts to the front of the lens. Mine extends about
four inches out, where there is a slot for the vignetter plate. It's a piece
of glass about 4"x4"; the center is clear, around the ede there is a black
pattern that gets more dense the closer it gets to the edge. There is also a
slot close to the lens where I put the diffuser.
Instead of the glass vignetter with dark edges, there is also a white
translucent plastic vignettter with a hole in the center. When I use this, I
place a small strobe about a foot in front and below the vignetter. The
flash lights up the vignetter, giving the picture whute edges.
Dudley Hanks - 29 Jan 2008 20:22 GMT
> snip
>> Definitely.
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> I place a small strobe about a foot in front and below the vignetter. The
> flash lights up the vignetter, giving the picture whute edges.

Hey, Ken, I want that.

Do you think it'll mount on my Canon A720? (Smile)

Thinking about bigger cameras,
Dudley
Rob Morley - 30 Jan 2008 06:24 GMT
> I'm thinking that another variation would be quite useful, if available.
> Namely, if a filter is darker around the outside perimeter than it is in the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> fill approximately three quarters of the area, just leaving the center as a
> hotspot.

I've never seen one, but you could make one by drilling the centre out
of a plain plastic ND filter.
 
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