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Photo Forum / General Photo Topics / General Topics / December 2007

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macro flash query

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Paul Burdett - 22 Dec 2007 05:24 GMT
Hi all,

OK, I've been taking macro photos for a while and have recently started to
use flash (EF100mm macro lens, canon 420EX,  20D). Here's the query:

According to many books I've looked at I should be able to take a macro shot
of an insect in daylight using flash using the following settings:
manual setting, f11-16, ISO100, 1/200th sec. I've tried mounting the flash
off camera on my Stroboframe style flash bracket, and also hand held,
triggered by my ST-E2 device with the 420EX held an inch or so away from the
subject. In each case the photos are underexposed (lcd very dark). Now, I
know I can increase the ISO, use a smaller f number or decrease the shutter
speed to say 1/60th sec...indeed unless I do that the needle is on the far
left of the exposure compensation meter when viewed through the viewfinder.
The whole point of using say 1/200th sec is to freeze the movement of the
insect (or flower in a breeze), but obviously there is not enough light at
this shutter speed? So, do I need to reduce the shutter speed and/or raise
the ISO or get a better flash? (580EX for example). Quite a few books I've
looked at on macro show examples of photos taken at the fast shutter speed
low ISO settings, so I'm not sure what the problem is. Any advice/links
appreciated. (I have Googled for answers!)
Cheers,

Paul
dadiOH - 22 Dec 2007 11:12 GMT
> Hi all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> appreciated. (I have Googled for answers!)
> Cheers,

The camera's shutter speed generally has no effect on the exposure
from electronic flash.  I say "generally" because the duration of
electronic flash is very brief - up to 1/40,000 second - but some
flashes may have durations longer than fast shutter speeds.  That is
not the usual case.

I have no idea what your problem is but any flash an inch away from
the subject should have provided more than ample light and fried the
insect as well  :)

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dadiOH
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DBLEXPOSURE - 22 Dec 2007 14:59 GMT
Try dropping your shutter speed down to 1/90th or 1/100th.  This should be
below the max sync speed of you camera.  If you are shooting at 1/200th your
shutter might be closing before the flash has finished.  Not sure what max
sync is for your camera, refer to you book.  You don't need a fast shutter
to freeze the action, the flash will do this for you.

You can run in High-speed sync,  I would guess your camera and flash are
both capable of this but not need for the type of shots you are doing.  ETTL
at 1\100th should do fine.

If you are into macro and insects and using flash to accomplish you work,
you might enjoy this article.

http://www.popphoto.com/popularphotographyfeatures/4407/how-to-photograph-insect
s.html


Final thought,  try using natural light...
Burt Johnson - 24 Dec 2007 18:59 GMT
> Try dropping your shutter speed down to 1/90th or 1/100th.  This should be
> below the max sync speed of you camera.  If you are shooting at 1/200th your
> shutter might be closing before the flash has finished.  Not sure what max
> sync is for your camera, refer to you book.  You don't need a fast shutter
> to freeze the action, the flash will do this for you.

I always thought 1/60 was the standard shutter speed to use for flash?
Don't most cameras sync at that speed?

to the OP - you should not be using shutter speed to adjust flash
illumination.  The shutter should be long enough to capture the entire
flash, but short enough to not have significant influence from ambient
light.  As I said, 1/60 is the magic number I have used for 40 years (it
is possible newer cameras prefer a different speed, and I am using that
number from very long habit though)

Good flashes have the ability to adjust the light they provide -- either
through manual setting or through interaction with the camera to
auto-expose.

Signature

- Burt Johnson
 MindStorm, Inc.
 http://www.mindstorm-inc.com/software.html

Paul Burdett - 24 Dec 2007 22:25 GMT
>> Try dropping your shutter speed down to 1/90th or 1/100th.  This should
>> be
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> through manual setting or through interaction with the camera to
> auto-expose.

Thank you for the reply...it makes sense. I guess my worry was that using a
shutter speed of 1/60th with a 100mm lens would result in a blurred
photo...I now realise that the flash would stop any motion of the subject,
but could the background be blurred? (which is what I want..bokeh). However,
I've seen many photos taken with a 1/200th sec shutter, camera on manaul
exposure f16 ISO100..I just can't get a photo at these settings. of course
they might be using a more powerful flash unit.
Cheers!
Burt Johnson - 24 Dec 2007 23:46 GMT
> Thank you for the reply...it makes sense. I guess my worry was that using a
> shutter speed of 1/60th with a 100mm lens would result in a blurred
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> they might be using a more powerful flash unit.
> Cheers!

1/60 will definitely not result in anything blurred when using flash
(unless the flash is only set to "fill" mode).

Blurring of the background is a factor of the f-stop, not the lighting.
Shoot with the f-stop wide open (2.8. 4. whatever the capability of your
lens is) to get the most bluring, and down shut (usually 22 or so) for
the least blurring.

Basically, with flash, the image _is_ frozen, with no motion blur.
F-stop controls depth of field.  If not using flash, then shutter speed
will control motion blur.

Signature

- Burt Johnson
 MindStorm, Inc.
 http://www.mindstorm-inc.com/software.html

Burt Johnson - 25 Dec 2007 00:15 GMT
> > Thank you for the reply...it makes sense. I guess my worry was that using a
> > shutter speed of 1/60th with a 100mm lens would result in a blurred
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> F-stop controls depth of field.  If not using flash, then shutter speed
> will control motion blur.

On rereading what I wrote, I think it could be misunderstood.

There are two types of blur. Motion blur occurs because the camera moved
(shake from not being on a tripod with too long an exposure) or the
subject moved.  That type does not happen with flash, because the
duration of the light is so short, and it overwhelms any ambient light
source.

The second kind of blur is depth of field. This is a result of the fact
that your camera cannot focus on both the flower you hold in your hand
and the mountain behind it.  Your eye has the same issue, but it has a
much deeper depth of field, and you tend not to notice it because your
eye can refocus so quickly when your mind says to look elsewhere.  In
the photo, the focus is frozen and when your mind says to look at the
mountain, the focus cannot change (in the print).

Depth of field is controlled by the f-stop of the lens at the time the
picture was taken.  The smaller the f-stop number, the wider open the
aperture is, and the shallower the depth of field.  Most lenses can open
as far as f4, or maybe f2.8 for bigger (heavier) and better lenses.
Crank open as wide as you can if you want a really shallow depth of
field -- so the bee is in focus and the flower he sits on is not.

Conversely, the higher the f-stop number, the smaller the aperture, and
the deeper the depth of field. Most lenses go down to f22, though some
go even smaller.  Crank it down as small as it will go if you want to
have the bee and the flower both in focus.

Mind you, in macro photography, depth of field is always very shallow.
You can increase it a bit with smaller aperture, but you will never have
the bee and the flower pot both in focus (assuming the bee is on the
flower, and not the pot).

Hope that is clearer...

Signature

- Burt Johnson
 MindStorm, Inc.
 http://www.mindstorm-inc.com/software.html

Paul Burdett - 25 Dec 2007 00:43 GMT
>> > Thank you for the reply...it makes sense. I guess my worry was that
>> > using a
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
>
> Hope that is clearer...

Thank you for a clear explanantion...much appreciated.

Paul
Rob Morley - 25 Dec 2007 02:17 GMT
In article <477031dc$0$26343$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, Paul
Burdett
pburdett@optusnet.com.au says...
> which is what I want..bokeh

Bokeh is a lens/aperture thing, nothing to do with shutter speed.  If
you want to minimise DOF you need to use a wide aperture (although with
macro you're never going to have much DOF anyway - it even can be tricky
to get the whole subject in focus).  Whether that results in pleasing
bokeh is down to the characteristiccs of the lens design (not just its
focal length) and the shape/number of leaves tha make up the diaphragm.
Of course you can always blur the background in various ways with post
processing (even with film).
Joel - 25 Dec 2007 10:40 GMT
> In article <477031dc$0$26343$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, Paul
> Burdett
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Of course you can always blur the background in various ways with post
> processing (even with film).

    Well, I don't real all messages of this thread, but just few responses and
I can see few things ain't exactly macro-photography, even the lens is a
real macro-lens.  Lets just look at the whole thing.

- Canon 100mm macro-lens is a real macro lens for sure.

- But using macro lens to photograph a large and fast flying butterfly or
fast moving object isn't true macro photography.  Or macro photography
usually on small none (still object) or very slow moving object, because
it's pretty hard to focus (and many people even use tripod on these tiny
still object)

- Flash, 1/250 is the fastest the normal flash can offer or the camera can
operate.  And with newer digital camera, it should report if the camera
setting meets the requirement's or not.  Or the status will report the flash
isn't correct if Flash is ON and set faster than 1/250's (s = second), or
the camera should have the Warning LED ON

    Also, there is some difference between 1/250's using regular flash and
studio strobe, because they work differently.  As well as macro flash, ring
flash for macro photography etc..

P.S.  I don't mean to quote or try to correct anyone.
Burt Johnson - 25 Dec 2007 10:55 GMT
> In article <477031dc$0$26343$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, Paul
> Burdett
> pburdett@optusnet.com.au says...
> > which is what I want..bokeh
>
> Bokeh is a lens/aperture thing, nothing to do with shutter speed.  

I thought 'bokeh' was a typo for something else... :-)

I have never heard that term before.  How would you define it?  (Yeah, I
could Google, but it is 3AM XMas Morning and I am heading for bed...)

Signature

- Burt Johnson
 MindStorm, Inc.
 http://www.mindstorm-inc.com/software.html

Paul Burdett - 25 Dec 2007 11:40 GMT
>> In article <477031dc$0$26343$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, Paul
>> Burdett
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> I have never heard that term before.  How would you define it?  (Yeah, I
> could Google, but it is 3AM XMas Morning and I am heading for bed...)

Bokeh is a Japanese term that refers to the out of focus section of a
photo...normally the background (of say a macro photo) where you isolate the
subject from its background.
Rob Morley - 25 Dec 2007 13:29 GMT
In article <1i9np4c.16h2jj211phqpkN%burt@mindstorm-inc.com>, Burt
Johnson
burt@mindstorm-inc.com says...

> > In article <477031dc$0$26343$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, Paul
> > Burdett
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> I have never heard that term before.  How would you define it?  (Yeah, I
> could Google, but it is 3AM XMas Morning and I am heading for bed...)

It's blurring that occurs outside the field of focus, with particular
reference to its aesthetic quality.
dadiOH - 25 Dec 2007 19:05 GMT
>> In article <477031dc$0$26343$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, Paul
>> Burdett
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> (Yeah, I could Google, but it is 3AM XMas Morning and I am heading
> for bed...)

Circles of confusion.  Some are more attractive than others depending
on several factors...lens design, number of leaves in aperture, etc.
Shape can be modified via anything that modifies the aperture shape
such as vignetters, et al.  Generally, people prefer the circles that
are hottest in the center and which decrease in density toward the
edges.  Both sperical and chromatic aberrations affect them.

Signature

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

Bruce - 22 Dec 2007 11:21 GMT
This article has some good info on Canon flashes:

http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/#eosflash

> Hi all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Paul
Rob Morley - 22 Dec 2007 12:19 GMT
In article <476c9fae$0$13262$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, Paul
Burdett
pburdett@optusnet.com.au says...
> Hi all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> triggered by my ST-E2 device with the 420EX held an inch or so away from the
> subject.

Did you hold the flash right next to the lens, pointing directly at the
subject?

> In each case the photos are underexposed (lcd very dark). Now, I
> know I can increase the ISO, use a smaller f number or decrease the shutter
> speed to say 1/60th sec...indeed unless I do that the needle is on the far
> left of the exposure compensation meter when viewed through the viewfinder.
> The whole point of using say 1/200th sec is to freeze the movement of the
> insect (or flower in a breeze),

The flash will do that for you.

> but obviously there is not enough light at
> this shutter speed? So, do I need to reduce the shutter speed and/or raise
> the ISO or get a better flash? (580EX for example). Quite a few books I've
> looked at on macro show examples of photos taken at the fast shutter speed
> low ISO settings, so I'm not sure what the problem is. Any advice/links
> appreciated. (I have Googled for answers!)

Ring flash is really the only way to go for macro shots.
Joel - 22 Dec 2007 15:09 GMT
<snip>
> > but obviously there is not enough light at
> > this shutter speed? So, do I need to reduce the shutter speed and/or raise
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> >
> Ring flash is really the only way to go for macro shots.

    I don't see the original message (probably some string matches my
kill-file), but I read the original from your quote and you are right about
Ring Flash or Macro Flash is good or designed for macro photography.

    And getting flash to subject is what the OP needs to pay more attention to
as the flash itself or flash bracket has nothing to do with whatever problem
the OP has.

    Even that I don't do maro photography but if I have to do without
Ring-Flash or Macro-Flash then this is what I may do.

1. Using some add-on device to turn regular flash to act as softbox.  Or to
   avoid direct flash to tiny object which would cause overexposed.

2. Using something to reflex the light from opposite side of flash (like
Light Reflextor) to reduce the shadow.

    And of course is may depend on how close the lens to subject which may
block the flash.  I know my macro toy can get to around 1-2" (nope! I don't
do macro photography but always want to learn and sometime I pay mucho $$$
to please my eyes) <bg>
Floyd L. Davidson - 22 Dec 2007 23:16 GMT
>Ring flash is really the only way to go for macro shots.

Not necessarily true.  It provides *flat* lighting, and
if you don't want that, it is not the way to go.  Try
getting a good image of a coin using a ring flash, for
example... yeck!

Signature

Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)              floyd@apaflo.com

Paul Burdett - 22 Dec 2007 23:19 GMT
>>Ring flash is really the only way to go for macro shots.
>
> Not necessarily true.  It provides *flat* lighting, and
> if you don't want that, it is not the way to go.  Try
> getting a good image of a coin using a ring flash, for
> example... yeck!

Apparantly the canon ringlite  (MR14-ex)allows ratios between the two
lights, which allows a better 3d style image (the more expensive 24ex has
moveable twin lights)
Rob Morley - 23 Dec 2007 01:08 GMT
> >Ring flash is really the only way to go for macro shots.
>
> Not necessarily true.

An oversimplification, I know.

>  It provides *flat* lighting, and
> if you don't want that, it is not the way to go.  Try
> getting a good image of a coin using a ring flash, for
> example... yeck!

Coins are a pretty special case because they're metallic, flat with low-
relief detail and uniform colour, but they're easily lit with a single
light source from the side.
Ken Hart - 22 Dec 2007 15:37 GMT
> Hi all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Paul

I don't think the amount of light is the issue here. WIth the flash only
inches away, you should have way more than enough light. I think your flash
is not properly sync'd, ie: it's not firing while the shutter is open. I am
not familiar with your equipment, but I would suggest for starters that you
go with a slower shutter speed. If that doesn't work, check the instructions
for your gear.
Floyd L. Davidson - 22 Dec 2007 23:12 GMT
>I don't think the amount of light is the issue here. WIth the flash only
>inches away, you should have way more than enough light. I think your flash
>is not properly sync'd, ie: it's not firing while the shutter is open. I am
>not familiar with your equipment, but I would suggest for starters that you
>go with a slower shutter speed. If that doesn't work, check the instructions
>for your gear.

I can't imagine how he would accomplish what you are
describing without some *very* obvious results that have
not been mentioned.  I.e., that *isn't* the problem.

Signature

Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)              floyd@apaflo.com

SteveB - 22 Dec 2007 16:39 GMT
> Hi all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Paul

Try using different flash settings in the menu.  It will help or it won't.

Steve
Joel - 22 Dec 2007 19:24 GMT
> > Hi all,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Steve

    Hope you won't mind me using your response as a bridge as I don't have the
original message.  Also, I may not try to give the answer to the OP (I don't
know what I may gonna say yet). but I just give some general information.

- ST-E2 is a device to strigger the flash remotely (or wireless flash
 trigger) for Canon's flash .

- Macro, I don't think the tiny insect will by running 5-10MPH to worry not
to catch its slow movement.

    *Unless* the OP is talking about taking a CLOSE UP (not true macro) of
some big and fast moving insects like flying butterfly, bee etc.. then it's
another story.

- Also, I believe for the safety reason Canon has 20D set to shoot a little
underexposed instead of overexposed.  And Canon 40D is brighter than 20D.

- Outdoor with flash? unless using Lighting Meter or check with the "P" (or
TV or AV", I would use "TV" or "AV" instead of "M"

    Also, I am not very good with outdoor besides just be happy with whatever
the camera decides to give me.  Or I am more of indoor and close-up instead
of outdoor shooting subject many feet/miles away.

- Using semi-manual/auto the camera displays the general calculation on
screen of what the result will be.  And it won't be difficult to figureout
or adjust to get brighter/darker capture.

- And with good glass, I don't think it needs to be F11-f16 to get crystal
detail of subject only few inches away.
Floyd L. Davidson - 22 Dec 2007 23:37 GMT
>Hi all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>According to many books I've looked at I should be able to take a macro shot
>of an insect in daylight using flash using the following settings:

In "daylight"???  You'll need to explain what you are
trying to do.  Do you want to expose with daylight, with
flash, or with a combination?

>manual setting, f11-16, ISO100, 1/200th sec.

I bright daylight, f11 with ISO 100 at 1/200th second
should work, depending on your lense (if you use extreme
extension to get closer focus, you'll need more
exposure).  None of that has to do with the flash
though.

If you use flash, it depends on how close the flash is
to the subject, how powerful the flash is, and how long
the duration of the flash is.   On manual, you have virtually
no choice but to experiment to find the right combination.
There is no magic way to predict it other than _measuring_
the light.  You can do that manually or automatically.

>I've tried mounting the flash
>off camera on my Stroboframe style flash bracket, and also hand held,
>triggered by my ST-E2 device with the 420EX held an inch or so away from the
>subject.

I'm not familiar with any of your equipment, so specific
"gotcha" type things aren't something I can discuss,
only generalities.

At an inch away, you would have had *lots* of light
unless you have the strobe on automatic or have manually
set it for low power.  Consider where the light sensor
is if it is on automatic!  If it is a through the lense
system, that's one thing, but if it has an external
sensor, make sure that you are not allowing the flash to
hit it directly, rather than allowing it to see only
light reflected from the object.  Otherwise it will
shutdown the flash's light pulse *very* quickly, just as
if it were at the minimum power setting.

>In each case the photos are underexposed (lcd very dark). Now, I
>know I can increase the ISO, use a smaller f number or decrease the shutter

The ISO and the aperture will indeed change things.

>speed to say 1/60th sec...

You can use shutter speed as a way to trouble shoot your
setup.  If changing the shutter speed changes how bright
the image is, your flash is *not* providing enough
light!  The speed of the flash is many times faster than
the shutter speed, hence changing the shutter speed does
not affect the exposure from the flash, it only changes
the ambient light exposure.

>indeed unless I do that the needle is on the far
>left of the exposure compensation meter when viewed through the viewfinder.

But that is almost certainly a measure only of ambient
light, and is unrelated to the flash.

>The whole point of using say 1/200th sec is to freeze the movement of the
>insect (or flower in a breeze), but obviously there is not enough light at
>this shutter speed?

If you are exposing with ambient light, that is
important.  But the flash is usually used primarily
because it is much faster, and therefore stops motion
much better (as well as being much brighter).

>So, do I need to reduce the shutter speed and/or raise
>the ISO or get a better flash? (580EX for example).

The shutter speed needs to be low enough to allow
X-sync.  That means the flash is fired when the focal
plane is entirely open.  With really fast shutter speeds
what happens is that the first curtain begins to move,
and then right behind it the second curtain also fires,
and in effect a slit of an opening is moved across the
plane of the sensor.  If the flash is fired at a speed
high enough that the shutter is doing that, instead of
the entire scene being lit up by flash, only a
rectangular slot will be, and the rest will be exposed
at ambient light levels only.  But modern cameras will
not fire the flash if the shutter speed is too high, so
that is not likely to be something you can actually see
happen.  Most cameras will simply refuse to go to a
higher shutter speed if the flash is activated.

Regardless of that, check the power settings on the
flash, make sure you have manual control of the flash
power.  Then yes you want to adjust ISO and aperture, as
well as the power of the flash, for the results you
want.  Generally most lenses are sharpest at f/8, so you
might use that as the target.  They get significantly
less sharp below f/4 or above f/11, so that is the range
you'd want to stick with, if at all possible.

>Quite a few books I've
>looked at on macro show examples of photos taken at the fast shutter speed
>low ISO settings, so I'm not sure what the problem is. Any advice/links
>appreciated. (I have Googled for answers!)

Putting a flash that close to an object and not getting
enough light suggests that either the flash is not
firing or it is set to an extremely low power.

Signature

Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)              floyd@apaflo.com

Paul Burdett - 23 Dec 2007 01:02 GMT
>>Hi all,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> trying to do.  Do you want to expose with daylight, with
> flash, or with a combination?

OK..here's the procedure: I'm outside, there's plenty of light..sunny day. I
set my camera to manual exposure,1/200th sec f11 ISO100. My flash is
hand-held close to the subject..say a bee on a flower (off cord used or IR
transmitter). I want to use flash only. Setting the camera to AV or TV means
(as I know it) that the flash will be "fill". My flash unit, Canon 420EX, is
fully automatic..no settings other than FEC. After taking the photo the lcd
is too dark to see anything. However, using a slower shutter speed or much
higher ISO results in a better outcome. However, the slower shutter speed
does not freeze the movement of the bee (although the higher ISO helps).

>>manual setting, f11-16, ISO100, 1/200th sec.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> exposure).  None of that has to do with the flash
> though.

I'm using Canon 100mm macro lens by itself.

> If you use flash, it depends on how close the flash is
> to the subject, how powerful the flash is, and how long
> the duration of the flash is.   On manual, you have virtually
> no choice but to experiment to find the right combination.
> There is no magic way to predict it other than _measuring_
> the light.  You can do that manually or automatically.

OK.

>>I've tried mounting the flash
>>off camera on my Stroboframe style flash bracket, and also hand held,
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> "gotcha" type things aren't something I can discuss,
> only generalities.

OK

> At an inch away, you would have had *lots* of light
> unless you have the strobe on automatic or have manually
> set it for low power.

I agree!

Consider where the light sensor
> is if it is on automatic!  If it is a through the lense
> system, that's one thing,

ETTL only

but if it has an external
> sensor, make sure that you are not allowing the flash to
> hit it directly, rather than allowing it to see only
> light reflected from the object.  Otherwise it will
> shutdown the flash's light pulse *very* quickly, just as
> if it were at the minimum power setting.

> not sure what you mean by external sensor...sorry.

>>In each case the photos are underexposed (lcd very dark). Now, I
>>know I can increase the ISO, use a smaller f number or decrease the
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> the image is, your flash is *not* providing enough
> light!

That's what I'm thinking.

The speed of the flash is many times faster than
> the shutter speed, hence changing the shutter speed does
> not affect the exposure from the flash, it only changes
> the ambient light exposure.

OK I follow that.

>>indeed unless I do that the needle is on the far
>>left of the exposure compensation meter when viewed through the
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> rectangular slot will be, and the rest will be exposed
> at ambient light levels only.

I think I follow that expalantion. However, the max sync speed on my
flash/camera combination is 1/250th sec, so shouldn't I be able to dial in
1/200th sec and have the flash expose correctly the scene?

But modern cameras will
> not fire the flash if the shutter speed is too high, so
> that is not likely to be something you can actually see
> happen.  Most cameras will simply refuse to go to a
> higher shutter speed if the flash is activated.

Even though I'm setting below the max sync speed?

> Regardless of that, check the power settings on the
> flash, make sure you have manual control of the flash
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> less sharp below f/4 or above f/11, so that is the range
> you'd want to stick with, if at all possible.

I'll try those settings again..

>>Quite a few books I've
>>looked at on macro show examples of photos taken at the fast shutter speed
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> enough light suggests that either the flash is not
> firing or it is set to an extremely low power.

Yes, I agree..unless I'm doing something basically wrong! Many thanks for
your help..it's much appreciated.
Paul
Rob Morley - 23 Dec 2007 01:14 GMT
In article <476db39a$0$18606$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, Paul
Burdett
pburdett@optusnet.com.au says...

> OK..here's the procedure: I'm outside, there's plenty of light..sunny day. I
> set my camera to manual exposure,1/200th sec f11 ISO100. My flash is
> hand-held close to the subject

Much closer than the camera?
Paul Burdett - 23 Dec 2007 01:52 GMT
> In article <476db39a$0$18606$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, Paul
> Burdett
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Much closer than the camera?

Yes..maybe an inch away. But here's an update:

Just took some shots outside but experimented with the settings. With ISO200
(400 is better) and shutter speed 1/100th sec the photos are better
exposed...still slightly dark but much better. I guess when taking moving
subjects like butterflies, bees etc I'll continue to use AV or TV mode with
either no flash or fill only. It would be nice to be able to set a shutter
speed of say 1/1000th sec using flash only and stop the movement of a (for
example) bee's wings and with a large d.o.f. (say f8-11)!
Rob Morley - 23 Dec 2007 13:52 GMT
In article <476dbf4e$0$17825$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, Paul
Burdett
pburdett@optusnet.com.au says...

> > In article <476db39a$0$18606$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, Paul
> > Burdett
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Yes..maybe an inch away. But here's an update:

So the flash is exposing for something close (although I can't imagine
it would cope accurately with something /that/ close because its light
sensor is probably more than an inch from the flash tube), the camera is
further away, and light intensity diminishes with the square of the
distance ... if there's a reason you need to have the flash so close try
covering its light cell so it fires at full power, and keep the camera
at the settings you started with.
Floyd L. Davidson - 23 Dec 2007 04:55 GMT
>OK..here's the procedure: I'm outside, there's plenty of light..sunny day. I
>set my camera to manual exposure,1/200th sec f11 ISO100. My flash is
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>higher ISO results in a better outcome. However, the slower shutter speed
>does not freeze the movement of the bee (although the higher ISO helps).

Hmmm... what do you get if you do exactly the same thing
*without* the flash connected at all?

This is sounding as if the flash is automatically
adjusting for what it thinks is the right amount of
light to *add* to the ambient light, which happens to
already be enough according to the light meter.

But apparently it isn't really enough when you have the
settings in manual mode.

>>>manual setting, f11-16, ISO100, 1/200th sec.

Hmmmm... if you change the aperture it will change both
the exposure from ambient light and from the flash.  You
are already close to the fastest shutter speed that will
work with flash (the X-sync max at 1/250th).  Slowing down
the shutter speed will not affect the flash exposure, but
will increase exposure due to ambient light.

>> If you use flash, it depends on how close the flash is
>> to the subject, how powerful the flash is, and how long
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>OK.

Except, if your flash is automatic only, then I'm not
sure what is happening when you put the camera in manual
mode.

You might try going to Shutter Priority, setting it to
1/250th, set the flash to automatic whatever, and see
what you get.  Also try manual exposure mode, and set
the aperature to f/32, and see what that does (it should
cause the flash power to be increase, which is done by
lengthening the duration of the flash).

>> At an inch away, you would have had *lots* of light
>> unless you have the strobe on automatic or have manually
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
>> not sure what you mean by external sensor...sorry.

If it has an automatic mode that is totally independant
of the camera.  I.e., a non-through-the-lense mode, that
works, for example, with older cameras.  To do that,
they have a sensor on the flash itself, so it is
"external" to the camera.

...

>I think I follow that expalantion. However, the max sync speed on my
>flash/camera combination is 1/250th sec, so shouldn't I be able to dial in
>1/200th sec and have the flash expose correctly the scene?

It's supposed to!

>> But modern cameras will
>> not fire the flash if the shutter speed is too high, so
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Even though I'm setting below the max sync speed?

Well, that explained what happens if you set it faster,
but since you've definitely got it lower none of that is
of any importance.

>> Regardless of that, check the power settings on the
>> flash, make sure you have manual control of the flash
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>I'll try those settings again..

You said above that the flash is automatic only, and if
that is true there is limited flexibility.  But do check
the manual to be sure.  What you want to be able to do
is force the flash to use full power.  Then you stop
down the aperture enough to cause the flash to be more
light than ambient.  Then, to regulate the amount of
light from the flash you can either move it farther away
from the object, or set it to less than full power.

Anybody have a URL for the manual on that flash unit???

Signature

Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)              floyd@apaflo.com

Paul Burdett - 23 Dec 2007 05:56 GMT
>>OK..here's the procedure: I'm outside, there's plenty of light..sunny day.
>>I
[quoted text clipped - 118 lines]
>
> Anybody have a URL for the manual on that flash unit???

Hi Floyd,
Here's a link to the manual..I really appreciate your feedback! I'll try the
other settings you suggested..Merry Christmans!!

http://eosdoc.com/manuals/?q=420EX
Floyd L. Davidson - 23 Dec 2007 11:43 GMT
>Hi Floyd,
>Here's a link to the manual..I really appreciate your feedback! I'll try the
>other settings you suggested..Merry Christmans!!
>
>http://eosdoc.com/manuals/?q=420EX

Ouch.  Is your camera a "Type-A" or a "Type-B"?

The one thing that sticks out the most is that this
flash simply does not have a manual power setting mode.
It's a matter of tricking the automatic sensor into
doing what you want.  I can't see any way to do that
other than simply experiment.

Whatever, tell me which type your camera is, and I'll
read the sections that apply and suggest things to
try.  (Granting that one of the first things I would
try is...  spending $30-40 on a cheap flash that can
be manually set!)

Signature

Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)              floyd@apaflo.com

Paul Burdett - 23 Dec 2007 12:38 GMT
>>Hi Floyd,
>>Here's a link to the manual..I really appreciate your feedback! I'll try
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Ouch.  Is your camera a "Type-A" or a "Type-B"?

Type A

> The one thing that sticks out the most is that this
> flash simply does not have a manual power setting mode.

Yes, I've been saying that all along. FEC is controlled by the camera. At
this stage I have it set to +2..i.e. full power

> It's a matter of tricking the automatic sensor into
> doing what you want.  I can't see any way to do that
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> try is...  spending $30-40 on a cheap flash that can
> be manually set!)

True. I'm considering then Canon 580EX or even the MR-14EX ringlite.
www.kevinkienlein.com - 23 Dec 2007 23:31 GMT
have you tried, setting the flash to "High Speed Sync"??? this may alleviate
your problem.... as someone mentioned before, the flash my go off before or
after the shutter is open... kk

>>>OK..here's the procedure: I'm outside, there's plenty of light..sunny
>>>day. I
[quoted text clipped - 127 lines]
>
> http://eosdoc.com/manuals/?q=420EX
Rob Morley - 24 Dec 2007 08:11 GMT
> have you tried, setting the flash to "High Speed Sync"??? this may alleviate
> your problem.... as someone mentioned before, the flash my go off before or
> after the shutter is open... kk

A simple way to check this is to set up the same but in low light, so a
slow shutter won't produce adequate exposure from the ambient light.  
Shoot with both fast and slow shutter and compare the results.  I
suspect that even at 1/60 the flash won't provide enough light.
Paul Burdett - 24 Dec 2007 10:07 GMT
>> have you tried, setting the flash to "High Speed Sync"??? this may
>> alleviate
>> your problem.... as someone mentioned before, the flash my go off before
>> or
>> after the shutter is open... kk

I reied Hi sync today..shutter set to more than the max sync speed (1/250th
sec)..the results were the same..extremely underexposed.
However (a little light at the end of the tunnel!) much better results were
achieved with a shutter speed of 1/100th sec ISO200 with FEC set to +2. I
recently read that ISO may have nothing to do with this....it's startying to
get a little confusing! I rang Canon today and they're going to have a look
at my flash unit, as I told them I suspect a fault...especially as the
exposure confirmation light doesn't work anymore (it used to)

> A simple way to check this is to set up the same but in low light, so a
> slow shutter won't produce adequate exposure from the ambient light.
> Shoot with both fast and slow shutter and compare the results.  I
> suspect that even at 1/60 the flash won't provide enough light.

Not sure if I follow this, but I'll give it a try.

P.S. Out of interest I took some photos inside of  some things on our
table...manual setting on the camera,1/200th sec ISO100 f11, 100mm macro
lens, ONBOARD flash...perfect exposures. Then I repeated the exact settings
using the Canon flash mounted on the hot shoe....black lcd!
Floyd L. Davidson - 24 Dec 2007 10:43 GMT
>get a little confusing! I rang Canon today and they're going to have a look
>at my flash unit, as I told them I suspect a fault...especially as the
>exposure confirmation light doesn't work anymore (it used to)

Whoa.  If the confirmation light doesn't work, it's a hardware
problem.

That explains a *lot*!

Signature

Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)              floyd@apaflo.com

Joel - 24 Dec 2007 16:43 GMT
    .... and one of the simplest ways to check if the flash fired or not is to
check the XRIF.
Peter - 29 Dec 2007 13:40 GMT
> have you tried, setting the flash to "High Speed Sync"??? this may
> alleviate your problem.... as someone mentioned before, the flash my go
> off before or after the shutter is open... kk

Ahh! remember the days when we could check this by a test shot with the back
of the box open? If we saw the flash through the lens, we were in sync.

Signature

Peter

Joel - 23 Dec 2007 13:22 GMT
<snip>
> Anybody have a URL for the manual on that flash unit???

    Google "Canon 420EX manual" and you may find some.
roentarre - 23 Dec 2007 05:55 GMT
Seriously there is a metering table for flash use especially with
macro

I tend to use manual mode to better determine what kind of light and
depth I really need.

James
Not4wood - 23 Dec 2007 11:07 GMT
You mentioned that the pics are very dark.  You say these settings are what
its supposed to be, what is the setting for your Flash??  Are you set for
f11 or f16 and have you tried opening up your aperture to f8 at the settings
you mentioned this will allow more light to pass thru.  If your Flash is set
for 1/4 power and your aperture is f11 or even 16 it will be too dark.

Also, I think someone already mentioned about your camera synch speed.  Can
you set the shutter speed at 200 for flash?  If not maybe this is your
problem and your not synch'd right.  Double check in your menu at what synch
speed you should have your flash at.  This might also solve the problem.  Or
you can set the sync speed at the old standby of 60th of a sec like it used
to be in film days.

You see, you might have set this correct exposure on your camera but in the
menu's of your camera other settings might throw these off.  Are you in
Program mode, manual mode or maybe your in a mode that doesn't let the flash
synch at all.  Go and check out the menus and see what everything is set at
and if there wrong change them.

One last thing.  What power level is your camera telling your flash to be
at??  If its set too low, of course your shots will be too dark.

Not4wood

> Hi all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Paul
Paul Burdett - 23 Dec 2007 12:45 GMT
> You mentioned that the pics are very dark.  You say these settings are
> what its supposed to be, what is the setting for your Flash??  Are you set
> for f11 or f16 and have you tried opening up your aperture to f8 at the
> settings you mentioned this will allow more light to pass thru.  If your
> Flash is set for 1/4 power and your aperture is f11 or even 16 it will be
> too dark.

I have the flash on +2 FEC. Yes, f8 gives better results (as does
1/80th-1/100th sec with ISO400-800...but I want more d.o.f, hence f11-16 and
low noise. I've seen many sample photos in books that use ISO100, f16
1/200th sec with off camera flash...however, probably with one that's more
powerful than mine (despite many saying my flash should be able to light the
subject properly)

> Also, I think someone already mentioned about your camera synch speed.
> Can you set the shutter speed at 200 for flash?  If not maybe this is your
> problem and your not synch'd right.  Double check in your menu at what
> synch speed you should have your flash at.  This might also solve the
> problem.  Or you can set the sync speed at the old standby of 60th of a
> sec like it used to be in film days.

The flash unit does not have manual control (I've said this many times in my
thread). The shutter speed is set on the camera, and the camera is in manual
exposure mode (not AV,TV or P...where the flash is fill)

> You see, you might have set this correct exposure on your camera but in
> the menu's of your camera other settings might throw these off.

such as??

 Are you in
> Program mode, manual mode or maybe your in a mode that doesn't let the
> flash synch at all.

As I said above...manual mode

 Go and check out the menus and see what everything is set at
> and if there wrong change them.

All is correct.

> One last thing.  What power level is your camera telling your flash to be
> at??  If its set too low, of course your shots will be too dark.

How would I know this? I use +2 flash exposure compensation.

Cheers,

Paul

> Not4wood
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>>
>> Paul
Paul Burdett - 27 Dec 2007 03:02 GMT
Update:

I took the flash unit into Canon and the service technician tried it out
with his 5D and 24-70 lens. He confirmed that there was definitely somehting
wrong with the unit, and put it down to a sync problem of some sort (most
likely a circuit board gone wrong!) Anyhow...I set a limit of $100 for the
repair, but if it's going to cost more (it's out of warranty) it looks like
I'll be buying a new one...probably the 580EX and/or the Ringlite (I do a
lot of macro). On the plus side  I took in my Canon A70 and my brother's
A75..both have ccd dispaly problem, and they're going to be fixed for free.

Paul

>> You mentioned that the pics are very dark.  You say these settings are
>> what its supposed to be, what is the setting for your Flash??  Are you
[quoted text clipped - 73 lines]
>>>
>>> Paul
 
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