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Photo Forum / General Photo Topics / UK Photography / November 2007

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Which DSLR?

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Paul - 10 Nov 2007 00:37 GMT
I am brand new to photography and have been using a Sony Cybershot W55
compact for a few months as a basic point and shoot device for
holidays/family etc and for that purpose it's great (although I do wish I'd
bought a Canon but that's another story....).

Anyway, as I am always keen to learn new things I am going to College in
January to start a beginners course in photography and the College inform me
that obviously a compact won't suffice and I need either a DSLR or a
'bridging camera' - whatever one of those is..

The guy was really helpful and suggested either a Canon or a Nikon in either
category but I have no idea where to start in terms of looking. He mentioned
a Canon EOS400d or a Nikon Coolpix of some description...are these DSLR's or
bridging cameras?

Basically I have a budget of about £450 and would like some advice and
recommendations for both DSLR's and bridging cameras.

I do apologise in advance as I know this has probably been asked a trillion
times but all help would be really appreciated.

Thanks v. much in advance.
Trev - 10 Nov 2007 05:25 GMT
> I am brand new to photography and have been using a Sony Cybershot W55
> compact for a few months as a basic point and shoot device for
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Thanks v. much in advance.

DSLR's in your price range = Canon 400D, Nikon 40 X, PentaxK100D, Pentax
K10D Olympus E410 Sony A100 See http://www.dpreview.com/ for reviews on
models.
PC world /curry's have a good deal on Olympus starter kit at the moment but
as whatever brand you go for your going to have to stay with unless your
loaded so think before you jump.
Bridge cameras look like dslrs but dont have interchangeable lens. But come
with 35mm to 200 or 28 to too or longer dependent on make and model. all
have smaller sized sensors to a dslr some very small but a saving in cost
over a dslr system Fuji 9600 or 6500 are good Examples.

Signature

Trev
You can always tell a Yorkshire man,
But you can't tell him much.

Woody - 10 Nov 2007 09:27 GMT
>> I am brand new to photography and have been using a Sony Cybershot
>> W55
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> model. all have smaller sized sensors to a dslr some very small but a
> saving in cost over a dslr system Fuji 9600 or 6500 are good Examples.

I would entirely agree with my learned friend above, so to expound a
little.....

The Nikon D40 and D40X are very good cameras save for one little thing.
All other Nikons prior to the D40/X had the mechanical mechanism in them
to operate the iris of older lenses - the 40's do not. Hence when buying
additional lenses you have to by the HSM variety - HyperSonic Motor -
which is inside the lens and drives the iris. This will limit the range
open to you and - at the moment at least - make them more expensive. The
18-70mm lens is one of the best on the market. The earlier Nikon's don't
have an inbuilt method of removing dust off the sensor - other makes use
ultrasonic waves or cell shaking to remove it.

The Pentax K100D and the new Super version have the advantage that image
stabilisation (useful at the long end of zooms and on macros to remove
shake) is in the body of the camera whereas most others have it in the
lens. This means you can use almost any Pentax lens with the right mount
and it will work. The Super version has live view - the LCD shows you
the scene before taking like most compacts whereas most dSLRs don't -
yet.

The Sony A100 is the first product they have produced since taking over
the Konica-Minolta business (and use Minolta mounts on the lens) and
many say leave a lot to be desired. The new one (A700?) is said to be
considerably better but at a price.

The E410, especially with the current Currys offer of extra lens, bag,
and memory card, looks good. However to my mind it does feel rather
plasticy and has a plastic lens mount which will undoubtedly wear more
quickly than a metal mount. Olympus on the other hand have always made
good lenses.

The EOS400D is a good camera save for the 17-55mm lens which comes with
it as standard. To put it politely it is not up to the job - others say
it is c**p. The new 410D also has live view.

So ultimately you pays your money and you makes your choice. One thing
to do: go to a good camera shop at a quiet time and ask to handle the
cameras in whcih you are interested. You have got to live with it so
comfort, fit in the hand,  weight, and things like the viewfinder
position and view are most important. That should affect your choice
much more than features and price.

Signature

Woody

harrogate three at ntlworld dot com

Dave - 10 Nov 2007 18:08 GMT
">> I am brand new to photography and have been using a Sony Cybershot W55
>> compact for a few months as a basic point and shoot device for
>> holidays/family etc and for that purpose it's great (although I do
>> wish I'd bought a Canon but that's another story....).
>>
>> Basically I have a budget of about £450 and would like some advice and
>> recommendations for both DSLR's and bridging cameras.

Last year I was in a similar position to you   .
I got a canon 350d   (now updated to a 400d)  but I think the 350d is still
for sell.
I have been more than pleased with the camera.
to see some of the picture, that I have taken with the 350d, please see
http://djmp.co.uk/slr/

kind regards
DAVE
Bristol UK
The Good Doctor - 10 Nov 2007 10:30 GMT
>I am brand new to photography and have been using a Sony Cybershot W55
>compact for a few months as a basic point and shoot device for
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
>Thanks v. much in advance.

You are obviously serious enough about photography to take a course,
so if you can afford it, you should definitely choose a DSLR over a
"bridge camera", because the quality of the results will be
significantly better.  

A bridge camera is a digital camera with a non-interchangeable zoom
lens that has a range of focal lengths similar to a DSLR with two kit
lenses.  For people who aren't serious about photography, it can be a
good alternative to a heavier, bulkier DSLR.  But the bridge camera
will have a small image sensor, just as in cheaper digital compact
cameras, and that has several severe limitations.

The image quality from a small sensor suffers from excessive "noise",
where flecks of light and colour detract from the overall quality of
the image.  All small sensors have this problem.  Some are worse than
others, but all are much worse than the least good DSLR.

To give you an idea of how important this is, noisy images from
compact and bridge cameras are very much more difficult to sell than
the much less noisy images from DSLRs.  

There is another thing that you will value in a DSLR that isn't
available in a bridge camera, and that is control over depth of field.
You will learn about depth of field on your course, but it is a very
important creative tool.  

When you focus on a subject you know that subject will be sharply
rendered in the photo.  But some of the foreground and some of the
background will also be in focus, depending on the subject distance,
focal length of the lens and the aperture you chose.

In a DSLR you can reduce the depth of field by opening the lens up to
its widest aperture, separating the sharp, in-focus subject from an
out-of-focus background and foreground.  This is particularly
important in portraiture.  

But sensor size has a huge effect on depth of field.  With a compact
or bridge camera, almost everything in the shot will be in focus
(subject, foreground and background) regardless of what aperture you
choose.  The larger the sensor, the more control you will get over
depth of field.

And that's why a DSLR is definitely the best choice for you.  The
average person who just wants snapshots of their holidays and family
members will be happy with a compact or bridge camera because
everything in the shot will be sharp.  But a creative photographer
needs to be able to control depth of field.

Of the cameras you have had recommended, one is a DSLR (Canon EOS
400D) and one is a bridge camera (Nikon Coolpix).  Of the two, the
Canon is by far the better buy for your needs.

But you should also consider the Nikon D40X, which is a direct
competitor to the Canon.  Like the Canon, it has a 10 megapixel
sensor, which is enough.  But the Nikon gives more detail in the photo
because its noise reduction is less aggressive than Canon's.

The Canon produces smoother-looking results because Canon's noise
reduction is very effective - too effective in my opinion.  The images
from the Nikon are slightly noisier but they retain more detail.

The Nikon kit lenses are also of much better optical quality than
Canon's.  The Canon 18-55mm is a poor performer and should be avoided
if possible.  Unfortunately, your budget gives you no real
alternative.  The Nikon D40X can be found with an 18-55mm Nikkor lens
for £359 here:

http://tinyurl.com/35wyc4

You pay £399 then claim a £40 rebate from Nikon UK.  I think this is
probably the best option available at the moment.  Avoid the Nikon D40
which is a discontinued model with only 6.1 million pixels and a lot
more noise.

There are some other cheap offers around, including DSLRs from Pentax
and Olympus.  However, the only Pentax models in your price range have
only 6.1 million pixels using an older, noisier sensor.  If you can
stretch your budget to £480 there is the Pentax K10D which is a very
good camera.  For that price you get a reasonably good 18-55mm lens.
There is a slightly cheaper Samsung alternative which is the exact
same camera, just with a different badge.

The Olympus DSLRs use a smaller sensor than Canon, Nikon and Pentax
and unfortunately this takes away some control of depth of field which
is one of the main strengths of a DSLR over a compact or bridge
camera.  For that reason, I would not recommend Olympus, unless you
are prepared to pay a lot of money for Olympus's top of the range
lenses, which have wide apertures and do give you back some of the
lost control of depth of field.  

Unfortunately the small size of the Olympus sensor means that images
will always tend to be noisier than images from DSLRs with sensors
that are physically larger.  That's down to the Laws of Physics and
Olympus will be forever handicapped by their choice of sensor size.

So I would recommend that you look at the Nikon D40X and the more
expensive Pentax K10D.  Personally, I use Canon DSLRs but I would not
recommend the Canon EOS 400D over either of these.
Mike Coon - 10 Nov 2007 15:55 GMT
> But sensor size has a huge effect on depth of field.  With a compact
> or bridge camera, almost everything in the shot will be in focus
> (subject, foreground and background) regardless of what aperture you
> choose.  The larger the sensor, the more control you will get over
> depth of field.

Why? Surely DOF applies to the centre of the image just as well as to the
edge, and how does the image centre know how far away the edge of the sensor
(or film, in pre-digital days) is?

Mike.
Signature

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Alan Clifford - 10 Nov 2007 23:14 GMT
MC> The Good Doctor wrote:
MC> > But sensor size has a huge effect on depth of field.  With a compact
MC> > or bridge camera, almost everything in the shot will be in focus
MC> > (subject, foreground and background) regardless of what aperture you
MC> > choose.  The larger the sensor, the more control you will get over
MC> > depth of field.
MC>
MC> Why? Surely DOF applies to the centre of the image just as well as to the
MC> edge, and how does the image centre know how far away the edge of the sensor
MC> (or film, in pre-digital days) is?
MC>

A smaller sensor size implies a smaller diameter lens.  So my 33mm to
350mm focal length lens, 35 mm equivalent, is actually only an 8.9 to
89mm.  I can achieve some boke at the long end as you would expect fromm
an 89mm lens but, at the short end, we are talking an extremely long depth
of field.  This is one of two things that is going to make me give up my
Nikon 8800 and buy a dslr.  The other is that I crave for manual focus
again.

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Alan

( If replying by mail, please note that all "sardines" are canned.
 However, unless this a very old message, a "tuna" will swim right
 through. )

Trev - 10 Nov 2007 23:23 GMT
>> But sensor size has a huge effect on depth of field.  With a compact
>> or bridge camera, almost everything in the shot will be in focus
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Mike.

Because its dependent on focal length Image diagonal and the aperture used.
A Compact may have a sensor of 6mm as against around 38mm on film. This
means the equivalent  focal length of 28mm on 35 mm film is reached on a
average DSLR with a focal length of 17 mm but on a compact that will be 5 mm
or even less. This basically means it would take great skill of an idiot to
get a photo out of focus on a pocket compact.

Signature

Trev
You can always tell a Yorkshire man,
But you can't tell him much.

The Good Doctor - 11 Nov 2007 09:14 GMT
>> But sensor size has a huge effect on depth of field.  With a compact
>> or bridge camera, almost everything in the shot will be in focus
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>edge, and how does the image centre know how far away the edge of the sensor
>(or film, in pre-digital days) is?

You need to do some research on the subject, because you have not the
faintest idea what you are talking about.
Rob Morley - 12 Nov 2007 12:29 GMT
> >> But sensor size has a huge effect on depth of field.  With a compact
> >> or bridge camera, almost everything in the shot will be in focus
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> You need to do some research on the subject, because you have not the
> faintest idea what you are talking about.

He was asking a question, not making a statement - maybe you need to
brush up on your reading and comprehension skills.  Have a go at your
interpersonal skills while you're at it.
Mike Coon - 12 Nov 2007 21:46 GMT
>>> But sensor size has a huge effect on depth of field.  With a compact
>>> or bridge camera, almost everything in the shot will be in focus
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> You need to do some research on the subject, because you have not the
> faintest idea what you are talking about.

Yes, I could get out my optics book from my undergraduate days, but it is
more interesting to see if anyone can come up with a coherent answer. Not
you, evidently!

Mike.
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The Good Doctor - 12 Nov 2007 22:14 GMT
>>>> But sensor size has a huge effect on depth of field.  With a compact
>>>> or bridge camera, almost everything in the shot will be in focus
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>more interesting to see if anyone can come up with a coherent answer. Not
>you, evidently!

Pearls before swine.
Michael J Davis - 12 Nov 2007 23:04 GMT
The Good Doctor <nospam@googlemail.com> observed

>>>>> But sensor size has a huge effect on depth of field.  With a compact
>>>>> or bridge camera, almost everything in the shot will be in focus
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>Pearls before swine.

It's always the rude who hide behind anonymity.

<plonk>

Mike

[The reply-to address is valid for 30 days from this posting]
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 Michael J Davis
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