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Photo Forum / General Photo Topics / UK Photography / August 2005

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Mother's going digital

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Martin Angove - 18 Aug 2005 22:58 GMT
Newbie warning :-) Long post, sorry. I have done a bit of a search, but
I've not yet found a "what camera" thread which has quite the
combination I'm about to present...

My mother is having her 70th birthday soon, and my father thinks that
she could make good use of a digital camera. She's pretty good
technically, but none of us has a digital camera at the moment(*) and so
although I know a reasonable amount about these things from a paper
specification POV, I'm interested in some real-world opinions please.

At the moment she uses an Olympus OM1n with either a 28mm or a 50mm
lens. This produces excellent pictures, but the camera is beginning to
show its age, and she tends to take less than a film-full at a time
which can make for frustrating delays between visits to the developer.

The new camera will probably be used mainly for landscape work so a
lens of at least 28mm equivalent is a necessity.

I can't see mum getting on with an LCD screen outdoors in bright sun so
it needs to have a good viewfinder. Optical sounds great, and for
wide-angle shots the offset of an optical viewfinder (dad's budget
really isn't going to stretch to a DSLR) shouldn't be a problem, but a
good electronic viewfinder would be ok too. Mum needs glasses for close
work so the viewfinder needs to have the sort of surround that works
with glasses.

She never uses a tripod and does suffer from arthritis, so as short a
shutter-lag as possible would be good.

A favourite trick for landscapes is the use of a polarising filter so a
lens with a standard filter thread (current filters are 49mm, but buying
new isn't necessarily a problem) is a good idea.

On the subject of a polariser, can its effect be gauged accurately in an
electronic viewfinder? I realise this kind of thing would be impossible
in an optical viewfinder that isn't TTL. Do the autofocusing systems on
digital cameras prefer circular polarisers or linear? We find linear
much easier to use on our manual SLRs.

She rarely uses flash, but does take indoor shots using long exposures,
particularly inside churches and the like. In fact she has quite a
repertoire of low-contrast shots as one of her hobbies is family history
and so pictures of memorial tablets and worn-down or lichen-covered
gravestones feature fairly heavily. A camera that can auto focus and
decently expose that kind of thing would be very useful.

She will not want to spend hours and hours retouching pictures, and
certainly won't want to spend money on something like Photoshop. Quite
honestly the most she's likely to want to do is crop or resize and
print, so a good exposure "out of the box" is vital.

Mum has an HP colour laser printer attached to a Mac Mini. She does a
lot of painting from her photographs and one particular advantage of a
digital picture will be the ability to print it, or a section of it, out
at a large size for detail. Partly for this reason I've been looking at
7 or 8 Mpix cameras.

Erm, that's about it really. To summarise, I think my mum needs a camera
with:

* wide angle of 28mm (35mm equiv) or better
* short shutter delay
* optical or very good electronic viewfinder
* decent ability flashless in low-light situations
* filter thread
* 6Mpix as a minimum, 7 or 8 preferably.
* Mac compatible (OS-X)
* as robust as possible; the OM1n has survived quite a few knocks and
  bumps

Based on extensive research (three magazines and a couple of evenings on
the interweb) I'm particularly interested in the Konica Minolta A200 and
the Olympus C7070 (or 8080). I realise that these are close to
low-end DSLR prices, but when you factor in the cost of a lens they
begin to look much cheaper. At the moment I favour the A200 for three
reasons:

1 It looks "chunkier" and more like an SLR. With carpal tunnel
  problems, chunky is good.

2 It has a mechanical zoom function. I hate fiddly button-zooms.

3 Although it has an electronic viewfinder, all the reviews I've read
  say that it is among the best currently available.

On the other hand I've heard that the C7070 has a better focussing
system and might have the edge on exposing awkwardly lit scenes
(consider a seascape).

But I'm open to other suggestions. As this is quite a hefty purchase,
we're probably going to go to the local camera shop (Walters in
Caerphilly) to "try before buy" so any models which are only available
at specific retailers or online are not really under consideration.

I can see that if this works out, my dad is going to use it too, so
secondary considerations are:

* reasonably long zoom (he tends to photograph aircraft and garden
  wildlife)

* the ability to display to a TV (though photo playback units aren't
  all that expensive these days)

Mainly for budget reasons I'm personally sticking with film for now, but
I see this exercise as a good way to get some proper experience with
digital without incurring too much cost!

(*) My 4-year-old has a 1.3Mpix Fuji camera which cost £20 and is
perfect for his kind of "snap happy" photography. I have to say that,
despite the fixed focus, low number of pixels, low cost, very long
shutter delay and tiny tiny flash, I'm very impressed with it. I used to
carry a disposable 35mm around for the occasional snapshot, but I've
taken to carrying the 4-year-old now instead :-)

TIA for any advice.

Hwyl!

M.

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John Bean - 18 Aug 2005 23:10 GMT
Consider finding an A2 rather than a A200. All the same
advantages plus 8 *much* better EVF.

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John Bean

Martin Angove - 19 Aug 2005 00:43 GMT
> Consider finding an A2 rather than a A200. All the same
> advantages plus 8 *much* better EVF.

The main problem being about a £300 difference in price if I read my
specs correctly. I was hovering around the £500 mark. If you are
seriously suggesting that £300 makes that much difference to the
electronic viewfinder then no thanks, I'd rather go SLR for the same
money.

But I don't think I could persuade my dad to part with quite that
much, even for my mum...

Hwyl!

M.

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harrogate2 - 19 Aug 2005 07:48 GMT
> > Consider finding an A2 rather than a A200. All the same
> > advantages plus 8 *much* better EVF.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> M.

If you are hovering around the £500 mark then do what you said you
couldn't or wouldn't - get a DLSR. Although I think it may now
technically be discontinued the Canon EOS300D should be available with
lens for that price, and although only 6Mp it can knock spots off any
compact of that size.

It has the advantage of being able to take normal Canon SLR lenses
although they magnify the focal length by about 1.5 times - i.e. a
35mm SLR lens will act as if it were about 50mm when on the digital.

The advantage of the DSLR is that it works like an SLR - it takes
pictures pretty well when you press the button which compacts most
certainly do not. I have an Olympus 5050 and have used the 8080 and
both can take up to about 3 seconds (or more) to take a picture
(without flash) unless pre-focused. The Canon is also about the same
size as an OM1, whereas its successor the EOS350D is seriously small -
I used to have problems with hand size on an OM1 (my son has one) but
found the 350 impossible. I am told the new Pentax DSLR (something
like *ISt) is pretty good albeith a bit more expensive. If you can
find a Nikon D70 (not D70s) at the right price you can update it's
operating software from the 'net and it will beat the new D50s into a
cocked hat - albeit if it suits the D50s is a superb machine if you
don't expect too much of it and has a 2" screen to boot.

If you end up with a compact then look seriously at the Canon Ixus 50
or A85/A95, Fuji E550, or Casio QV-R61 all of which respond relatively
quickly and take good pictures.

Finally, unless your Mum wants to crop to less than half the picture
and print at A4 don't bother looking above 5Mp. You get little
advantage at 6 or 8Mp by comparison but you do get colour noise
(graininess in saturated colours) which can be most objectionable.
Remember that you only need 3Mp and a half decent lens to get superb
quality for full frame printed at A4 size.

--
Woody

harrogate2 at ntlworld dot com
Odie Ferrous - 19 Aug 2005 19:44 GMT
> If you are hovering around the £500 mark then do what you said you
> couldn't or wouldn't - get a DLSR. Although I think it may now
> technically be discontinued the Canon EOS300D should be available with
> lens for that price, and although only 6Mp it can knock spots off any
> compact of that size.

If that were indeed the case, then why do manufacturers even bother to
put out "compacts" "that size"?

Does the Canon come (included in the price) a 12x optical zoom?

I have no idea whatsoever, but does the Canon come with hand-held shake
protection?  (Sometimes it can be useful, you know...)

To each his own.

That is exactly why there exists such diversity amongs digital cameras.

Just so long as someone doesn't recommend a Kodak...!

Odie
Someone whose daughter trashed his Olympus C3020 camera.  Then went and
bought a Panasonic FZ20.
And who has found the quality between the two incredible.  The Olympus
won on all counts other than optical zoom.  By a long, long margin.

Next camera may *well* be a digital SLR - but only because I am prepared
to splash out on the lenses that give me the flexibility of something
like the FZ20.

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Martin Angove - 19 Aug 2005 21:21 GMT
> > > Consider finding an A2 rather than a A200. All the same
> > > advantages plus 8 *much* better EVF.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> lens for that price, and although only 6Mp it can knock spots off any
> compact of that size.

Interesting suggestion, and one I'll investigate, but knowing dad (and
the fact that this is to be a birthday present) I doubt second hand
would do it, even if I could find such a beast. And I should have made
clear that £500 is my idea of an upper limit. Although dad hasn't
specified, mum's going to have a fit if she finds out he's spent even
that much on a camera for her ;-)

I really don't think the jump to dSLR is economically viable. Comparing
new prices we're looking at £350-odd for the 7070, £400ish for the A200,
and £450 for the 8080. A D50 plus 28mm (eq) lens kit is around £600 and
a D70 with 28mm lens seems to be well over £700.

[...]

> The advantage of the DSLR is that it works like an SLR - it takes
> pictures pretty well when you press the button which compacts most
> certainly do not. I have an Olympus 5050 and have used the 8080 and
> both can take up to about 3 seconds (or more) to take a picture
> (without flash) unless pre-focused.

Ok, this could be a problem. Possibly not for the landscape stuff
though. Your figures are quite high, I'm sure I've read reviews where
they are claimed to be lower. Is your figure the click-focus-snap-store
total or just click-focus-snap? I don't think mum's likely to have a use
for multiple shots in quick succession. Having said that, if she can be
persuaded to pre-set the camera (shutter button half way) or if she
decides to use the thing on full manual, presumably the speed improves
greatly.

> The Canon is also about the same size as an OM1, whereas its successor
> the EOS350D is seriously small - I used to have problems with hand
> size on an OM1 (my son has one) but found the 350 impossible.

[...]

Size is one reason we want to be able to audition these cameras at a
local shop, and one reason the A200 is tempting; although smaller than a
modern SLR it still looks (on paper) quite chunky and easy to handle.
Remember that the OM1n is actually quite a "petite" camera by modern
(film) SLR standards as it has a metal body, and absolutely no
automation so needs no body room for motors or batteries.

> If you end up with a compact then look seriously at the Canon Ixus 50
> or A85/A95, Fuji E550, or Casio QV-R61 all of which respond relatively
> quickly and take good pictures.

Ok, noted. Will go and find some reviews of those before making a final
list.

> Finally, unless your Mum wants to crop to less than half the picture
> and print at A4 don't bother looking above 5Mp. You get little
> advantage at 6 or 8Mp by comparison but you do get colour noise
> (graininess in saturated colours) which can be most objectionable.
> Remember that you only need 3Mp and a half decent lens to get superb
> quality for full frame printed at A4 size.

Again, point taken, but 6 to 8 Mpix seems to be the current "standard"
in the range of cameras I'm looking at. I'm not sure about your 3Mpix
statement (though I recognise that you aren't the only person to say
this, and I've seen similar in magazines as well as here). I've not seen
a lot of digital photographs, but my sister in law has a 3Mpix camera
(something small and Canon I think) and personally I would say that the
6x4 prints are fine but 7x5s are a bit ropey. I really wouldn't want to
see one of her 3Mpix images professionally printed at A4, though I can
see that on a home-bound inkjet or (possibly) laser they might be
acceptable.

Thanks for the help :-)

Hwyl!

M.

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harrogate2 - 19 Aug 2005 22:43 GMT
Expensive World are doing the EOS300D kit (i.e. including 18-55mm
lens - equiv 28-90mm at 35mm) for £499.87.

The shutter delay that I quoted does NOT include memory writing. If
you pre-focus (by holding the shutter release half pressed) then any
camera will take the picture almost instantly when you apply the full
shutter pressure. However few take it quickly if you press the shutter
fully from the start. I have a Ricoh Caplio RR30 which is reckoned to
take the picture within 220mS of a full shutter press - and I can
vouch for that. Their current R1V, R2, and GX8 all seem to be similar.
If you want to see real slow, try one of the Nikon compacts in the
4000 or 5000 series - five seconds is quick there!

The comment about 3Mp being enough for A4 is from personal experience
but you can work it out:-
Newprint is about 75dpi
'Normal' photoprints are around 130-150dpi.
Glossy mag front covers are around 200dpi.
Take A4 to be about 10x8: at 200dpi this will be 2000x1600 pixels or
about 3.2Mp. QED (although doubtless someone will flame me and argue
with the maths, but the principle is probably right.)

One thing that affects final quality is the physical size of the CCD
chip. One of the early Nikons - D1? - had only a 2Mp chip but it would
knock spots off most 5Mp compacts.

As for the quantity of pixels - most people who don't understand just
follow the 'who can use the most pixels' race. As I said earlier - and
again from personal experience - 5Mp is plenty enough for most uses.
6Mp is useable, but 8Mp certainly does show noise in saturated colours
without much subjective overall picture quality improvement. (Noise:
look at a saturated blue or red on your TV screen with an off-air
signal and you will see it seems to be 'snowing' slightly - this is
electrical noise.)

What affects the final picture most is the computation done on the
picture before it is saved, especially if it is in jpeg format. There
is much discussion at the moment, but RAW format is the best to use -
it is effectively a digital negative - and is proprietry to most
manufacturers. It does require some adjustment - usually sharpening -
but that is in your control by your editing software, not at the
choice of the camera manufacturer's designers. Not all cameras have
RAW capability.

Having been a keen photographer for over 30 years and having had
digital of some form for about five I can only offer comments from my
own experience which may differ from others. However when anyone has
asked me which camera to buy I always give the same answer: go to a
good and well stocked camera shop on a mid-week morning knowing
roughly what you want and how much you want to spend. Ask the shop to
get the cameras of you choice out on the counter and play with them.
Sure as eggs is eggs one of them (if you're lucky more than one) will
feel 'right' and that is the one you should buy. At the end of the day
you have got to live with the thing!

--
Woody

harrogate2 at ntlworld dot com
Simon Waldman - 20 Aug 2005 08:32 GMT
> The comment about 3Mp being enough for A4 is from personal experience
> but you can work it out:-
> Newprint is about 75dpi
> 'Normal' photoprints are around 130-150dpi.
> Glossy mag front covers are around 200dpi.

...but optical prints on photographic paper from a Fuji Frontier or an
Agfa D-lab are 300dpi or 400dpi respectively.

And yes, I can tell the difference.

At 300dpi, 8x10" is 7.2Mp. And A4 is actually closer to 8x12"...
(slightly less in fact)

Most of the A4 samples that I see from manufacturers of 3-4Mp cameras
look slightly dodgy to me - although this is probably not helped by the
fact that they are usually oversharpened too.

Having said all this, I totally agree with the number of pixels not
always being the most important thing. I'm told that sensor size makes a
difference, although I'm not sure why, but the other huge thing which
gets forgotten in the race for big numbers is the lens quality! You can
have as many pixels as you like, but if you're projecting a fuzzy image
onto them....

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Trev - 20 Aug 2005 11:58 GMT
>> The comment about 3Mp being enough for A4 is from personal experience
>> but you can work it out:-
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Agfa D-lab are 300dpi or 400dpi respectively.
> And yes, I can tell the difference.

You can actually see a dot of 300 the of an inch never mind 400th

Do the labs auto intapolat or do they print by inches whatever the res of
the supplied image

> At 300dpi, 8x10" is 7.2Mp. And A4 is actually closer to 8x12"... (slightly
> less in fact)
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> many pixels as you like, but if you're projecting a fuzzy image onto
> them....
Simon Waldman - 20 Aug 2005 15:50 GMT
> You can actually see a dot of 300 the of an inch never mind 400th

I can see the dots from a Frontier. One of the reasons that I don't
particularly like these machines is that the actual dots they put down
are too sharp (of course it looks fine from more than 4 inches away!). I
can't see the dots from an Agfa d-lab. I don't know whether this is due
to teh 33% greater resolution or just because the "dots" are softer.

> Do the labs auto intapolat or do they print by inches whatever the res of
> the supplied image

Not sure I understand the question. Usually they take what you give them
and scale it to the size you specify (presumably they interpolate when
they do this).

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John Cartmell - 20 Aug 2005 10:26 GMT
> The comment about 3Mp being enough for A4 is from personal experience
> but you can work it out:-
> Newprint is about 75dpi
> 'Normal' photoprints are around 130-150dpi.
> Glossy mag front covers are around 200dpi.

I'd find my job far easier if they were!
Try 300dpi - or better.

And assume 90dpi for good web graphics.

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Trev - 20 Aug 2005 12:06 GMT
>> The comment about 3Mp being enough for A4 is from personal experience
>> but you can work it out:-
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> And assume 90dpi for good web graphics.

I think he means LPI Lines per inch. Even if his figures are wrong.  Web
graphics have no Pixele, dots, or drops per inch Resalution just a hight by
width in pixels.
John Cartmell - 20 Aug 2005 16:47 GMT
> >> The comment about 3Mp being enough for A4 is from personal experience
> >> but you can work it out:-
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> >
> > And assume 90dpi for good web graphics.

> I think he means LPI Lines per inch. Even if his figures are wrong.  Web
> graphics have no Pixele, dots, or drops per inch Resalution just a hight by
> width in pixels.

If web graphics have no dots or pixels what do they have? And if you expect
them to be seen at (approximately) a certain size (measurable in inches ...

Get a high enough resolution and screen sized monitor and all the assumptions
go out of the window of course - but my guidance is good for ordinary people.
;-)

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Trev - 20 Aug 2005 17:12 GMT
>> >> The comment about 3Mp being enough for A4 is from personal experience
>> >> but you can work it out:-
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> them to be seen at (approximately) a certain size (measurable in inches
> ...

They have pixels but they dont need any pixels per inch resolution saved
with the image
A 800 x 600 pixel image will fill a screen displaying 800 x 600 pixels but
not a 1024 x 768 but it will be 800 x 600 pixels that will never change  no
mater how big or small the monitor. If its displayed on a 24 inch screen
with a display res of 1024 x 768 It will just leave enough space around it
for the Explore window.
So it maters not be it 72, 96, or 200 ppi when its displayed on a scree ,
web or TV  the ppi is only a factor used to deterring the printed image
size.

> Get a high enough resolution and screen sized monitor and all the
> assumptions
> go out of the window of course - but my guidance is good for ordinary
> people.
> ;-)
John Cartmell - 20 Aug 2005 23:13 GMT
> >> >> The comment about 3Mp being enough for A4 is from personal experience
> >> >> but you can work it out:- Newprint is about 75dpi 'Normal'
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> They have pixels but they dont need any pixels per inch resolution saved
> with the image

I don't need to consciously save any image with a specific dpi. But if I
prepare an image at 90dpi then incorporate it into a web page without
stipulating a specific size (ie let it set itself at 100%) then it will look
OK without wasting space and time.

> A 800 x 600 pixel image will fill a screen displaying 800 x 600 pixels but
> not a 1024 x 768 but it will be 800 x 600 pixels that will never change  no
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> displayed on a scree , web or TV  the ppi is only a factor used to
> deterring the printed image size.

Well I tend to prepare web pages at 1024 x 768 with 90dpi images.

> > Get a high enough resolution and screen sized monitor and all the
> > assumptions go out of the window of course - but my guidance is good for
> > ordinary people. ;-)

Just guidance. You won't ordinarily get a range as wide as you suggest.

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James Hart - 20 Aug 2005 23:43 GMT
>>>>>> The comment about 3Mp being enough for A4 is from personal
>>>>>> experience but you can work it out:- Newprint is about 75dpi
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
> Well I tend to prepare web pages at 1024 x 768 with 90dpi images.

But the site in your sig is sized to 800 wide. How do your 90dpi images know
what size my monitor is?
John Cartmell - 21 Aug 2005 21:11 GMT
> >>>>>> The comment about 3Mp being enough for A4 is from personal
> >>>>>> experience but you can work it out:- Newprint is about 75dpi
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> >
> > Well I tend to prepare web pages at 1024 x 768 with 90dpi images.

> But the site in your sig is sized to 800 wide. How do your 90dpi images know
> what size my monitor is?

It doesn't. And I'm willing to bet that we'd be on the same side against all
those people who don't know the difference between DTP and Web Design. The
figures quotyed were approx guidelines. 90dpi is a fairly good guideline for
average sort of web graphics - just as 300-360 dpi is a good giuidline for
magazine pictures. But the latter will vary for a number of reasons and I may
need 600dpi for some pictures and make do with 200dpi for others (or even none
- or infinite - which is my preferred option!). Advising the use of 90dpi at
least says that it should be much lower than that required for magazines - and
one could go on to give very good reasons for very particular sizes. And after
lots of calculations you'd find that those very good reasons would give
something close to what most people producing 90dpi graphics and dropping it
onto their web pages at 100% would get.

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Liz - 21 Aug 2005 22:26 GMT
> It doesn't. And I'm willing to bet that we'd be on the same side against all
> those people who don't know the difference between DTP and Web Design.
                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Grief, John -
Fixed width web design!!!
This is OT here; I hope you never have cause to visit
uk.net.web.authoring!
(Or if you do, wear your heaviest flameproof suit.)

Slainte

Liz

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Geoff Berrow - 31 Aug 2005 12:31 GMT
I noticed that Message-ID: <57bc179e4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>
from Liz contained the following:

>> It doesn't. And I'm willing to bet that we'd be on the same side against all
>> those people who don't know the difference between DTP and Web Design.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>uk.net.web.authoring!
>(Or if you do, wear your heaviest flameproof suit.)

He'd be a bit foolish to mention it in  uk.education.schools-it as well.
The dogs would have him... ;-)

(Sorry I'm late - been on holiday)

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John Cartmell - 31 Aug 2005 12:55 GMT
> I noticed that Message-ID: <57bc179e4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net> from
> Liz contained the following:

> >> It doesn't. And I'm willing to bet that we'd be on the same side against
> >> all those people who don't know the difference between DTP and Web
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> >have cause to visit uk.net.web.authoring! (Or if you do, wear your
> >heaviest flameproof suit.)

> He'd be a bit foolish to mention it in  uk.education.schools-it as well.
> The dogs would have him... ;-)

I *am* the dog on uk.education.schools-it that would savage anyone confusing
DTP with Web Design! ;-)

> (Sorry I'm late - been on holiday)

Presumably you're now back in harness. ;-)

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Geoff Berrow - 31 Aug 2005 17:15 GMT
I noticed that Message-ID: <4da309de96john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> from
John Cartmell contained the following:

>> (Sorry I'm late - been on holiday)
>
>Presumably you're now back in harness. ;-)

Yeah, it's wuff in FE.
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John Bean - 19 Aug 2005 09:21 GMT
>> Consider finding an A2 rather than a A200. All the same
>> advantages plus 8 *much* better EVF.
>
>The main problem being about a £300 difference in price if I read my
>specs correctly.

The A2 is discontinued and heavily discounted if you can
find one. The RRP has no meaning at all.

> I was hovering around the £500 mark.

Even when the A2 was current it didn't cost £800. I bought
one last year for under £600, and that was from a local
dealer.

>If you are seriously suggesting that £300 makes that much difference to the
>electronic viewfinder then no thanks, I'd rather go SLR for the same
>money.

The EVF of the A2 is unique and never bettered. As EVFs go
it's as good as any you'll ever see, and it's *big* as well
as sharp.

SLRs are a different category; it's unlikely that any
current SLR/lens combination offering the same
range/performance of the A2/A200 will be small/light enough
for the purpose intended, but only you know that for sure.

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John Bean

Trev - 19 Aug 2005 01:04 GMT
> Consider finding an A2 rather than a A200. All the same
> advantages plus 8 *much* better EVF.

Now I was going to say That.I'm a Happy 7 hi user and think I would Lose out
If I got a A200
nick J - 19 Aug 2005 10:32 GMT
Why not persuade her that it is ok to develop her film with less than
24 exposures used. She could get them scanned at the same time.
Enabling her to make prints at home.

I'm not anti-digital, I use a dSLR myself but if she's comfortable
using the OM1n why not continue using it. It is a lovely camera after
all and she has the lenses she needs.

Nick J
Martin Angove - 19 Aug 2005 20:50 GMT
> Why not persuade her that it is ok to develop her film with less than
> 24 exposures used. She could get them scanned at the same time.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> using the OM1n why not continue using it. It is a lovely camera after
> all and she has the lenses she needs.

Hmmm... yes, she's been using this particular OM1n since 1981, on and
off. I've taken hundreds of photos using it and love it to bits. It
isn't mum that's had this idea to go digital, but dad, but I can see how
it would work for mum. Running cost isn't really the issue given that
she uses no more than a dozen films a year, but a couple of other things
are:

* The OM1n is in need of a major service (couple of bits falling off,
  back isn't reliably light tight etc.) and so if this camera is to be
  kept then money will have to be spent on it. (The main broken bit is
  the film rewind lever. It is a very difficult and painful (honestly)
  task to rewind a roll of film, especially with her arthritic hands).

* Although mum has a 28mm and a 50mm lens at hand, and knows how to
  change them, she often can't be bothered, or hasn't carried the
  alternate with her, and has trouble framing shots as a result. A zoom
  has to be the answer which again means more money spent on the OM1n.

* Believe it or not, our local 1 hour processor no longer sells (much)
  film! In stock at the moment they have Fuji Sensia (slide film) and
  an own brand print film based on Agfa something in 200ASA only.

* She's finding it more and more difficult to use the split-centre
  focus. This isn't often a problem for landscapes, but can be for her
  close-up shots of gravestones etc. (see earlier post) in particular
  in low-light situations where half the split often goes black.

* She does a lot of painting from photographs. At the moment she can
  scan them and print them out larger, but her scanner has also seen
  better days (it only has OS9 drivers and only runs with a minimal set
  of options under third-party drivers on OSX) and although she *could*
  get the photos put onto CD by the local 1-hour people, it adds three
  or four quid to the price of developing (Agfa machine). Jessops and
  Boots with the Fuji machines are better at around a pound or two, but
  they're in Cardiff and visits to Cardiff are rare. Anyway, we like to
  feel we're supporting local businesses (Walters are local to South
  Wales).

* Some of her photographs are taken for other family historians and
  often they prefer them via email. Same argument as above.

* She has written a book about our family history
  ( http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/wj/book.html ) which has a lot of her
  photographs in it. They all had to be professionally scanned, and in
  some cases the negatives were missing. There is a supplement "in
  production" and photographs which are already in the digital domain
  would be very useful.

* Dad needs to buy her a birthday present and can't think of anything
  else.

* I'm really keen to see how a decent digital camera works as although
  I'm not in the market for one at the moment, I may be within the next
  couple of years.

Ok, the last two are a bit funny, but you get the drift :-)

Hwyl!

M.

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Roger Merriman - 19 Aug 2005 11:03 GMT
> Newbie warning :-) Long post, sorry. I have done a bit of a search, but
> I've not yet found a "what camera" thread which has quite the
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> show its age, and she tends to take less than a film-full at a time
> which can make for frustrating delays between visits to the developer.

snips.

> Erm, that's about it really. To summarise, I think my mum needs a camera
> with:
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> Caerphilly) to "try before buy" so any models which are only available
> at specific retailers or online are not really under consideration.

snips

> TIA for any advice.
>
> Hwyl!
>
> M.

i think i would be tempted to either take nicks advice and stay with her
old OM1n or to look for a 2nd had DSLR, they are coming down in price
now, though the loss of the wide end would probably be a problem.

the advanatges are that the DSLR is likely to be more simular in use, a
chunker more robust body, but it will be pricer particlly if you get
wide angle lences, and your unlikely to get 6mp at a cheap price, though
of course size isn't every thing and having a good lence etc...

Roger
Alan Clifford - 19 Aug 2005 22:37 GMT
MA>
MA> Based on extensive research (three magazines and a couple of evenings on
MA> the interweb) I'm particularly interested in the Konica Minolta A200 and
MA> the Olympus C7070 (or 8080). I realise that these are close to
MA> low-end DSLR prices, but when you factor in the cost of a lens they
MA> begin to look much cheaper. At the moment I favour the A200 for three
MA> reasons:

Sounds like your mother would benefit from the stabilizer too - the
reviews say that it is worth up to about three stops of speed (if that
is the way to describe it) with the telephotos.  

I've been looking at much longer zooms to replace my ageing Olympus 730
but was shown the A200 in Harpers in Woking and I did like it.  The manual
zoom seems great.  It has a filter thread on the lens rather than needing
tube gizmo.

What no one seems to discuss these days is depth of field - too much of it
- that seems to be the result of the physically small lenses due to the
physically small sensors of digital cameras.  The cameras you mentioned
seem to have relatively large sensors but they are small compared to 35 mm
film.  Your mother is obviously not just a point-and-shoot snapper, so
this might be a consideration.  I am considering taking a card into the
shop and asking if I can take a few photos on it.

The LCD viewfinders might take a bit of getting used too, and different
camera have a different number of pixels in their LCDs.

Go have a look at a few in the camera shop.

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Lofty - 20 Aug 2005 00:25 GMT
Tell her to stick to film, its much cheaper and far superior

> MA>
> MA> Based on extensive research (three magazines and a couple of evenings on
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Go have a look at a few in the camera shop.
shee - 20 Aug 2005 11:33 GMT
> Tell her to stick to film, its much cheaper and far superior
>
> <snip>

Hello
Here is a viewpoint from someone who loves photography, and is in similar
age and physical condition to Martin's Mum, but without the in-depth
knowledge.

My first digital camera was a Fuji MX1200 - and it taught me a lot, but
eventually I knew that it simply did not do all the things I wanted it to
do.  I took a trip to a small camera specialist shop where I knew they would
advise me properly and not treat me like an idiot granny with no business
"being technical".    I left the shop with an Olympus C-70 Zoom.

This camera does everything I ask of it, and more, and takes superb photos.
I wear glasses and don't take them off to use the view-finder.  The camera,
with spare battery and cards, is small enough to live in my handbag, but it
is big enough for the zoom control and buttons to be used very easily by
large, stiffening fingers.  It is almost impossible to delete a photo
accidentally.  The screen is large, though I only use it occasionally for
checking a photo, or for flicking through a number of photos to find a
particular one.     The genuine Olympus battery is expensive, but lasts 3
times as long a the cheap alternatives.

It has a number of special settings - sport, portrait, landscape, night,
panorama - and a lot of other settings for lens, speed, aperture and so on
which speak to me of "normal" cameras, which I have never had and do not
understand.  I mostly keep the setting at auto-focus and sport - probably
not the right thing to do, but works for me.  Changing the settings is very
simple but time-consuming, and since most of my photography is spur of the
moment, time is a luxury I don't have.

On the down side, it does not have any protection against camera shake, and
I can never guarantee that the photos I take will turn out right, especially
when taking photos from a moving vehicle (which I often do from the
passenger seat!).  For night shots a tripod (or other firm base) is
essential.  I find that it is not good in dim lighting, such as churches,
without flash for the same reason - my hand is not steady enough to hold the
camera perfectly still for the delayed exposure.  But maybe if the settings
(in the group I don't understand) were altered it would be better.

I hope this helps you with your decisions.
Sheila
sheila-e@blueyblueyonder.co.uk remove one bluey to reply).
Martin Angove - 20 Aug 2005 20:45 GMT
> > Tell her to stick to film, its much cheaper and far superior
> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> age and physical condition to Martin's Mum, but without the in-depth
> knowledge.

[...]

I wouldn't say my mum has particularly "in depth" knowledge of
photography, but she is very used to her OM1n and knows how to make
decent pictures using it. Thanks for your encouraging post, you're
making me feel a lot better about my dad's "hare brained" scheme ;-)

Hwyl!

M.

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Martin Angove - 20 Aug 2005 10:49 GMT
> MA>
> MA> Based on extensive research (three magazines and a couple of evenings on
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> reviews say that it is worth up to about three stops of speed (if that
> is the way to describe it) with the telephotos.  

Not that she is likely to use the telephoto end much (though dad might)
but it might just make that low-light shot more achievable.

> I've been looking at much longer zooms to replace my ageing Olympus 730
> but was shown the A200 in Harpers in Woking and I did like it.  The manual
> zoom seems great.  It has a filter thread on the lens rather than needing
> tube gizmo.

Yes, I think I said that a filter thread was one of the priorities. This
is one reason I'm not looking at the normal compact-compacts; even if
they go down to 28mm, they rarely have a filter thread.

> What no one seems to discuss these days is depth of field - too much of it
> - that seems to be the result of the physically small lenses due to the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> this might be a consideration.  I am considering taking a card into the
> shop and asking if I can take a few photos on it.

Since all the cameras I've been looking at will take CF, I'm thinking of
doing the same. Depth of field is an interesting issue. Mum probably
wouldn't use it creatively, though I have seen a few shots from her
where she has framed a distant landscape using a slightly out-of-focus
tree or hedge or something in the forground, but a camera that is
relatively "fast" and can therefore use smallish apertures will
certainly help with the focussing, not that that should be an issue with
AF!

> The LCD viewfinders might take a bit of getting used too, and different
> camera have a different number of pixels in their LCDs.

I suspect that she'll mainly be using the viewfinder, hence the reason
for discounting many cameras with EVFs unless the reviews say they are
excellent.

> Go have a look at a few in the camera shop.

I tried that this morning. I've been having all sorts of
community-related feelings about supporting local businesses and as I
was dropping a film off this morning anyway, I asked at the shop whether
it would be possible to arrange to audition the C7070 and the A200. Note
that I didn't want to see them immediately, but was planning to take dad
down there during next week. Granted, they had a C7070 on the shelf, but
they didn't have an A200 in any of their shops according to the computer
system, and as far as the assistant I spoke to was aware it was "no
longer a stock item". What? I was under the impression that this was a
fairly recent camera.

Not only that but the C7070 was marked up at £499, discounted to £429.
That's a lot more than I've seen it elsewhere...

I've just checked their website which certainly still lists the A200, at
£399 which oddly is less than the C7070. Oh well.

Hwyl!

M.

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Andy Champ - 20 Aug 2005 18:30 GMT
<snip>
>help with the focussing, not that that should be an issue with AF!

Oh yes it will!  I have AF only, and it's a PITA sometimes.  You won't
believe how many fuzzy shots of Red Kites I have...  I really think
manual is easier than this "point at object at right distance, half
press, frame picture, full press" I sometimes have to do.

Andy
Martin Angove - 20 Aug 2005 20:33 GMT
> <snip>
> >help with the focussing, not that that should be an issue with AF!
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> manual is easier than this "point at object at right distance, half
> press, frame picture, full press" I sometimes have to do.

I have to say that my experience of AF on various film SLRs isn't
altogether perfect. For some reason I assumed that things might have
improved. Certainly the AF on my dad's camcorder seems to get it right
most of the time. I don't know how easy manual focusing is going to be
on an LCD or an EVF, but I think the A200 at least has a focus ring
which at least makes focusing "SLR-like".

And if the EVF isn't detailed enough then perhaps a small aperture is
called for after all :-)

Hwyl!

M.

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Andy Champ - 21 Aug 2005 22:43 GMT
> I have to say that my experience of AF on various film SLRs isn't
> altogether perfect. For some reason I assumed that things might have
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> M.

The AF is pretty good... but...

Trying to get a decent photo of a Kite is driving me up the wall.  One
will pop over a hill. I have to power the camera up, aim, zoom in,
override exposure so the bird and not the sky is correct, half-press so
AF locks in on it... by which time it's gone.  A real manual would let
me preset all that.

Apart from that the only real stopper I had was once trying to take the
moon through branches.  It insisted on focussing on the branches, not
the moon.  It's not that the AF makes mistakes, so much as it sometimes
chooses the wrong subject and can be slow.

Andy.
Ken Wright - 20 Aug 2005 17:32 GMT
Might also want to take a look at the Canon Powershot S2 IS

http://www.warehouseexpress.co.uk/

circa £350 so won't break your bank.  New model, 5MP images, 12x Optical
zoom, Image stabilisation (Which will probably be good for Mum) yadda yadda
yadda....

That 8080 also looks nice though  :-)

Regards
             Ken....................
Ken Wright - 20 Aug 2005 18:36 GMT
Powershot G6 and the Powershot Pro1 also look very nice, and both below
budget with lots of nice features.

http://www.warehouseexpress.co.uk/index.cfm?photo/digicameras/canon.html

Regards
             Ken.................

> Might also want to take a look at the Canon Powershot S2 IS
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Regards
>              Ken....................
Martyn Rowland - 20 Aug 2005 22:18 GMT
How about a Sony DSC F828 - 8MP and you can get them for around £400 now -
28mm - 200mm lens in 35mm terms...
> Newbie warning :-) Long post, sorry. I have done a bit of a search, but
> I've not yet found a "what camera" thread which has quite the
[quoted text clipped - 115 lines]
>
> M.
Lofty - 20 Aug 2005 23:21 GMT
Keep to film, digital may have some things going for it but don't forget
that if she buys digital, then she will need a computer plus the relevant
software to edit them on, also a good printer to print them out on. Also she
will need lessons on how to work the software etc this puts the cost up
tremendously, (can be £K's) and the inks on the prints fade if displayed in
the light for too long, and most of the pictures taken by digital cameras
stay on the computer and never get printed.
There are lots of used good spec AF film camera's around at a very
affordable price, do the job much better than a small digital
Happy snapping

> How about a Sony DSC F828 - 8MP and you can get them for around £400 now -
> 28mm - 200mm lens in 35mm terms...
[quoted text clipped - 117 lines]
> >
> > M.
Neil Barker - 21 Aug 2005 01:14 GMT
> Keep to film, digital may have some things going for it but don't forget
> that if she buys digital, then she will need a computer plus the relevant
> software to edit them on, also a good printer to print them out on.

Nah she doesn't. She can just as easily take them to Boots, ASDA etc
and have them print the images straight from the card - almost as if it
were film. She doesn't *have* to edit them on a computer first -
desirable yes, but not essential.

(Humongous amount of overquote snipped)

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Alan Clifford - 21 Aug 2005 13:29 GMT
NB> In article <4307b9bb$0$1314$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>,
NB> miduck8@hotmail.com says...
NB> > Keep to film, digital may have some things going for it but don't forget
NB> > that if she buys digital, then she will need a computer plus the relevant
NB> > software to edit them on, also a good printer to print them out on.
NB>
NB> Nah she doesn't. She can just as easily take them to Boots, ASDA etc
NB> and have them print the images straight from the card - almost as if it
NB> were film. She doesn't *have* to edit them on a computer first -
NB> desirable yes, but not essential.
NB>

And the Christmas present problem is solved - one of the rather nice
dye-sub printers.  We a little Canon one.  And with a Pictbridge camera,
you can connect the camera directly to it.

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Ken Wright - 21 Aug 2005 17:01 GMT
And in actual fact, at Asda at least, you can even edit them on their
machines when you put them in for processing.  All simple stuff with wizards
to help, and excellent prints at the end of it.  At £5 for 50 6x4s or £7 for
50 7x5s or 25p each for 9x6s they certainly won't break the bank.

Regards
             Ken....................
harrogate2 - 21 Aug 2005 19:55 GMT
> And in actual fact, at Asda at least, you can even edit them on their
> machines when you put them in for processing.  All simple stuff with wizards
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Regards
>               Ken....................

.........and their quality is pretty good as well!

--
Woody

harrogate2 at ntlworld dot com
Roger Whitehead - 21 Aug 2005 01:40 GMT
> Also she
> will need lessons on how to work the software etc this puts the cost up
> tremendously, (can be £K's)

Rubbish. There are several simple and easy to learn packages available.
Some, such as Picasa2, are free. Even the much more powerful Photoshop
Elements 3 can be got for around £40 on the Web.

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Liz - 21 Aug 2005 14:06 GMT
> Keep to film, digital may have some things going for it but don't forget
> that if she buys digital, then she will need a computer plus the relevant
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the light for too long, and most of the pictures taken by digital cameras
> stay on the computer and never get printed.

All true:
But if she opts for Photoshop, the "Classroom in a Book" is fantastic,
and avoids the need for a class. I'm not sure if there's a similar
publication for Elements - someone else will know.

OTOH, if she signs for a class, e.g. with a college which provides
email addresses, she can get Photoshop at a vastly reduced educational
price. Basically any educational email address will do: our janitorial
and office staff count too, for example.

Inkjet Prints (from an Epson 1290) on my wall at school facing a wall
of windows (indirect sun for most of the day, admittedly) haven't
'obviously' changed ('looking', not a technical test) compared to a
'control' kept in a cupboard over two years, so I'm not sure what the
'fading' timescale is. If I had somewhere to do it, I'd do a strip
test in full light ...

Very few of my conventional prints or slides are 'used' on a regular
basis: in fact, most are binned (less 'guilt' with digital!), and many
of those which aren't are consigned to an album or filing cabinet.
Other people's mileage may vary on this, of course!

Slainte

Liz

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Martin Angove - 21 Aug 2005 16:11 GMT
> Keep to film, digital may have some things going for it but don't forget
> that if she buys digital, then she will need a computer
Already has a pretty decent computer - Mac Mini - and is pretty
conversant with its use, having been a computer user for ten years or
more, and a Mac user since 1999.

> plus the relevant software to edit them on,

Probably won't want to do much editing, a bit of cropping or resizing
perhaps, maybe some colour or contrast adjustment. There is free stuff
"out there" which will do that. Come to think of it, some of it comes
bundled with OSX.

> also a good printer to print them out on.

HP colour laser already in everyday use. I have a photo inkjet
(6-ink Canon S450) that she can borrow if she feels it necessary.

> Also she will need lessons on how to work the software etc this puts
> the cost up tremendously, (can be £K's)
As I said, I don't think she's going to be doing that much on the
software side, and I'm only a couple of miles up the road so that's
"training" covered, not that she isn't perfectly capable of working most
things out for herself using built-in help.

> and the inks on the prints fade if displayed in the light for too
> long,

I dare say they do, but so do "normal" photographs.

> and most of the pictures taken by digital cameras stay on the computer
> and never get printed.

And most of the prints from each roll of film are stuck in a cupboard
and never see the light of day again. Assuming she archives to CD, 2 or
300 digital photographs on each CD takes up considerably less storage
space than 2 or 300 six-by-fours, and with the right organisation
they'll also be easier to search. She also has boxes and boxes of 35mm
slides from the 1960s and 1970s, and dad has quite a few 2" slides
knocking about which we can't even project any more. I suppose we could
scan them...

> There are lots of used good spec AF film camera's around at a very
> affordable price, do the job much better than a small digital Happy
> snapping

Ignoring the errant apostrophe, if you re-read my OP (which you quoted
below your reply) you'll realise that what my mother does is far from
"happy snapping". "Happy snapping" is what my 4-year-old does, and I
feel we were perfectly justified buying him a £20 (plus £10 card)
digital camera, considering that maybe 80 or 90% of his photographs are
worthy of instant discarding.

Briefly, my mother uses an Olympus OM1n SLR at the moment. This is a
"classic" SLR and is still a favourite among many photographers, despite
the only exposure aid it offers being a little needle-style light meter.
She takes landscapes mainly, and also some shots for "recording"
purposes (the gravestones etc. I mentioned). The lanscapes are often
used to paint from.

If she is going to stay with film then she's going to keep the OM1n as
she is used to it and has been using it since 1981 IIRC. AF might be
handy as her eyesight isn't quite what it used to be, but it's far from
essential at the moment. However, the OM1n is in need of a major service
and so we would be spending money on it anyway. Dad came up with the
idea of going digital having seen a digital camera belonging to a friend
of his.

Far from proposing to replace the OM1n with a "small digital", if you
note the rest of the thread, I'm considering high-end digital compacts
that are 6Mpix or better, have a wide angle lens of 28mm (35mm equiv),
and preferably a filter thread. One that is "chunky" and looks and feels
"SLR-like" would help her arthritic hands enormously, and anti-shake,
while not a deal-breaker, would be good too. When you put those
considerations down, it instantly discards a large proportion of the
compacts available. In particular, the 28mm requirement knocks out most
of the smaller 6Mpix+ compacts, and loses nearly all the 5Mpix bunch.
Low-end dSLRs also disappear as their 28mm lenses add considerably to
the purchase cost.

Any more considered suggestions gladly received.

Hwyl!

M.

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Roger Whitehead - 21 Aug 2005 22:39 GMT
> Any more considered suggestions gladly received.

Have you looked at the Olympus C-7070? 7.1-megapixel, 27mm-110mm (35mm
equivalent) focal length, chunky in the hand, quality your mother will be
used to and plenty of scope to experiment and learn. About £350.

Here's one review -
http://www.steves-digicams.com/2005_reviews/c7070_pg2.html .

(Owning up to bias - I bought one a few weeks ago and am very pleased with
it. I used to be an OM owner, too.)

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Roger

Martin Angove - 22 Aug 2005 10:39 GMT
> > Any more considered suggestions gladly received.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> (Owning up to bias - I bought one a few weeks ago and am very pleased with
> it. I used to be an OM owner, too.)

As you will see from the OP, the C7070 (and its bigger brother, the
8080) is one of the three cameras I originally considered (the Konica
A200 being the other). The only real point against the C7070 that I can
see at the moment is the lack of a filter thread (AFAICS). Although the
A200 has the zoom ring, anti-shake and the apparently good EVF in its
favour, there is at least one review which casts doubt on its ability to
focus properly while the C7070 gets top marks for focusing and
excellent comments on its auto exposure modes.

Am about to try to arrange auditions... the local camera shop has a 7070
on the shelf, but no sign of an A200.

Hwyl!

M.

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Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
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Trev - 22 Aug 2005 12:03 GMT
>> > Any more considered suggestions gladly received.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> M.

Its not so much its ability to focus correctly as its ability to shift the
focus points, something the user can control but if not noticed can be off
the main subject and on the background.
Roger Whitehead - 22 Aug 2005 12:38 GMT
> As you will see from the OP

Life's too short to read back that far.  8-)

> the lack of a filter thread (AFAICS)

It takes 40.5mm diameter filters. I've got a UV filter permanently on mine
to protect the front element.

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Roger

Martin Angove - 22 Aug 2005 17:01 GMT
> > As you will see from the OP
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
:-)

I went back to the photos of the camera after posting that and noticed
that there was after all a thread. Interesting that although two of the
A200 reviews I've seen make a point about a filter thread, none of the
C7070 ones even mention it (though to be fair, it is mentioned in one
C8080 review).

The only problem is that mum takes landscapes, I tend to advise her to
bung the polariser on for landscapes (does interesting things with
skies, grass and still water), yet with an optical viewfinder, how will
you judge the effect? I presume it'll show up on the LCD, but in bright
sun (which is when the polariser works best) LCDs tend to be unusable
IME...

Hwyl!

M.

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Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology
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Roger Whitehead - 22 Aug 2005 19:12 GMT
> I presume it'll show up on the LCD

Yep.

> but in bright
> sun (which is when the polariser works best) LCDs tend to be unusable

You can vary the LCD's brightness. I haven't tried the result in bright
sun, mainly because I've so far always been able to tilt it to a readable
angle. On a tripod (which I assume your mother's using for panos), you can
shield it from the sun.

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Roger

 
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