Photo Forum / General Photo Topics / UK Photography / August 2005
Mother's going digital
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Martin Angove - 18 Aug 2005 22:58 GMT Newbie warning :-) Long post, sorry. I have done a bit of a search, but I've not yet found a "what camera" thread which has quite the combination I'm about to present...
My mother is having her 70th birthday soon, and my father thinks that she could make good use of a digital camera. She's pretty good technically, but none of us has a digital camera at the moment(*) and so although I know a reasonable amount about these things from a paper specification POV, I'm interested in some real-world opinions please.
At the moment she uses an Olympus OM1n with either a 28mm or a 50mm lens. This produces excellent pictures, but the camera is beginning to show its age, and she tends to take less than a film-full at a time which can make for frustrating delays between visits to the developer.
The new camera will probably be used mainly for landscape work so a lens of at least 28mm equivalent is a necessity.
I can't see mum getting on with an LCD screen outdoors in bright sun so it needs to have a good viewfinder. Optical sounds great, and for wide-angle shots the offset of an optical viewfinder (dad's budget really isn't going to stretch to a DSLR) shouldn't be a problem, but a good electronic viewfinder would be ok too. Mum needs glasses for close work so the viewfinder needs to have the sort of surround that works with glasses.
She never uses a tripod and does suffer from arthritis, so as short a shutter-lag as possible would be good.
A favourite trick for landscapes is the use of a polarising filter so a lens with a standard filter thread (current filters are 49mm, but buying new isn't necessarily a problem) is a good idea.
On the subject of a polariser, can its effect be gauged accurately in an electronic viewfinder? I realise this kind of thing would be impossible in an optical viewfinder that isn't TTL. Do the autofocusing systems on digital cameras prefer circular polarisers or linear? We find linear much easier to use on our manual SLRs.
She rarely uses flash, but does take indoor shots using long exposures, particularly inside churches and the like. In fact she has quite a repertoire of low-contrast shots as one of her hobbies is family history and so pictures of memorial tablets and worn-down or lichen-covered gravestones feature fairly heavily. A camera that can auto focus and decently expose that kind of thing would be very useful.
She will not want to spend hours and hours retouching pictures, and certainly won't want to spend money on something like Photoshop. Quite honestly the most she's likely to want to do is crop or resize and print, so a good exposure "out of the box" is vital.
Mum has an HP colour laser printer attached to a Mac Mini. She does a lot of painting from her photographs and one particular advantage of a digital picture will be the ability to print it, or a section of it, out at a large size for detail. Partly for this reason I've been looking at 7 or 8 Mpix cameras.
Erm, that's about it really. To summarise, I think my mum needs a camera with:
* wide angle of 28mm (35mm equiv) or better * short shutter delay * optical or very good electronic viewfinder * decent ability flashless in low-light situations * filter thread * 6Mpix as a minimum, 7 or 8 preferably. * Mac compatible (OS-X) * as robust as possible; the OM1n has survived quite a few knocks and bumps
Based on extensive research (three magazines and a couple of evenings on the interweb) I'm particularly interested in the Konica Minolta A200 and the Olympus C7070 (or 8080). I realise that these are close to low-end DSLR prices, but when you factor in the cost of a lens they begin to look much cheaper. At the moment I favour the A200 for three reasons:
1 It looks "chunkier" and more like an SLR. With carpal tunnel problems, chunky is good.
2 It has a mechanical zoom function. I hate fiddly button-zooms.
3 Although it has an electronic viewfinder, all the reviews I've read say that it is among the best currently available.
On the other hand I've heard that the C7070 has a better focussing system and might have the edge on exposing awkwardly lit scenes (consider a seascape).
But I'm open to other suggestions. As this is quite a hefty purchase, we're probably going to go to the local camera shop (Walters in Caerphilly) to "try before buy" so any models which are only available at specific retailers or online are not really under consideration.
I can see that if this works out, my dad is going to use it too, so secondary considerations are:
* reasonably long zoom (he tends to photograph aircraft and garden wildlife)
* the ability to display to a TV (though photo playback units aren't all that expensive these days)
Mainly for budget reasons I'm personally sticking with film for now, but I see this exercise as a good way to get some proper experience with digital without incurring too much cost!
(*) My 4-year-old has a 1.3Mpix Fuji camera which cost £20 and is perfect for his kind of "snap happy" photography. I have to say that, despite the fixed focus, low number of pixels, low cost, very long shutter delay and tiny tiny flash, I'm very impressed with it. I used to carry a disposable 35mm around for the occasional snapshot, but I've taken to carrying the 4-year-old now instead :-)
TIA for any advice.
Hwyl!
M.
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John Bean - 18 Aug 2005 23:10 GMT Consider finding an A2 rather than a A200. All the same advantages plus 8 *much* better EVF.
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John Bean
Martin Angove - 19 Aug 2005 00:43 GMT > Consider finding an A2 rather than a A200. All the same > advantages plus 8 *much* better EVF. The main problem being about a £300 difference in price if I read my specs correctly. I was hovering around the £500 mark. If you are seriously suggesting that £300 makes that much difference to the electronic viewfinder then no thanks, I'd rather go SLR for the same money.
But I don't think I could persuade my dad to part with quite that much, even for my mum...
Hwyl!
M.
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harrogate2 - 19 Aug 2005 07:48 GMT > > Consider finding an A2 rather than a A200. All the same > > advantages plus 8 *much* better EVF. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > M. If you are hovering around the £500 mark then do what you said you couldn't or wouldn't - get a DLSR. Although I think it may now technically be discontinued the Canon EOS300D should be available with lens for that price, and although only 6Mp it can knock spots off any compact of that size.
It has the advantage of being able to take normal Canon SLR lenses although they magnify the focal length by about 1.5 times - i.e. a 35mm SLR lens will act as if it were about 50mm when on the digital.
The advantage of the DSLR is that it works like an SLR - it takes pictures pretty well when you press the button which compacts most certainly do not. I have an Olympus 5050 and have used the 8080 and both can take up to about 3 seconds (or more) to take a picture (without flash) unless pre-focused. The Canon is also about the same size as an OM1, whereas its successor the EOS350D is seriously small - I used to have problems with hand size on an OM1 (my son has one) but found the 350 impossible. I am told the new Pentax DSLR (something like *ISt) is pretty good albeith a bit more expensive. If you can find a Nikon D70 (not D70s) at the right price you can update it's operating software from the 'net and it will beat the new D50s into a cocked hat - albeit if it suits the D50s is a superb machine if you don't expect too much of it and has a 2" screen to boot.
If you end up with a compact then look seriously at the Canon Ixus 50 or A85/A95, Fuji E550, or Casio QV-R61 all of which respond relatively quickly and take good pictures.
Finally, unless your Mum wants to crop to less than half the picture and print at A4 don't bother looking above 5Mp. You get little advantage at 6 or 8Mp by comparison but you do get colour noise (graininess in saturated colours) which can be most objectionable. Remember that you only need 3Mp and a half decent lens to get superb quality for full frame printed at A4 size.
-- Woody
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Odie Ferrous - 19 Aug 2005 19:44 GMT > If you are hovering around the £500 mark then do what you said you > couldn't or wouldn't - get a DLSR. Although I think it may now > technically be discontinued the Canon EOS300D should be available with > lens for that price, and although only 6Mp it can knock spots off any > compact of that size. If that were indeed the case, then why do manufacturers even bother to put out "compacts" "that size"?
Does the Canon come (included in the price) a 12x optical zoom?
I have no idea whatsoever, but does the Canon come with hand-held shake protection? (Sometimes it can be useful, you know...)
To each his own.
That is exactly why there exists such diversity amongs digital cameras.
Just so long as someone doesn't recommend a Kodak...!
Odie Someone whose daughter trashed his Olympus C3020 camera. Then went and bought a Panasonic FZ20. And who has found the quality between the two incredible. The Olympus won on all counts other than optical zoom. By a long, long margin.
Next camera may *well* be a digital SLR - but only because I am prepared to splash out on the lenses that give me the flexibility of something like the FZ20.
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Martin Angove - 19 Aug 2005 21:21 GMT > > > Consider finding an A2 rather than a A200. All the same > > > advantages plus 8 *much* better EVF. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > lens for that price, and although only 6Mp it can knock spots off any > compact of that size. Interesting suggestion, and one I'll investigate, but knowing dad (and the fact that this is to be a birthday present) I doubt second hand would do it, even if I could find such a beast. And I should have made clear that £500 is my idea of an upper limit. Although dad hasn't specified, mum's going to have a fit if she finds out he's spent even that much on a camera for her ;-)
I really don't think the jump to dSLR is economically viable. Comparing new prices we're looking at £350-odd for the 7070, £400ish for the A200, and £450 for the 8080. A D50 plus 28mm (eq) lens kit is around £600 and a D70 with 28mm lens seems to be well over £700.
[...]
> The advantage of the DSLR is that it works like an SLR - it takes > pictures pretty well when you press the button which compacts most > certainly do not. I have an Olympus 5050 and have used the 8080 and > both can take up to about 3 seconds (or more) to take a picture > (without flash) unless pre-focused. Ok, this could be a problem. Possibly not for the landscape stuff though. Your figures are quite high, I'm sure I've read reviews where they are claimed to be lower. Is your figure the click-focus-snap-store total or just click-focus-snap? I don't think mum's likely to have a use for multiple shots in quick succession. Having said that, if she can be persuaded to pre-set the camera (shutter button half way) or if she decides to use the thing on full manual, presumably the speed improves greatly.
> The Canon is also about the same size as an OM1, whereas its successor > the EOS350D is seriously small - I used to have problems with hand > size on an OM1 (my son has one) but found the 350 impossible. [...]
Size is one reason we want to be able to audition these cameras at a local shop, and one reason the A200 is tempting; although smaller than a modern SLR it still looks (on paper) quite chunky and easy to handle. Remember that the OM1n is actually quite a "petite" camera by modern (film) SLR standards as it has a metal body, and absolutely no automation so needs no body room for motors or batteries.
> If you end up with a compact then look seriously at the Canon Ixus 50 > or A85/A95, Fuji E550, or Casio QV-R61 all of which respond relatively > quickly and take good pictures. Ok, noted. Will go and find some reviews of those before making a final list.
> Finally, unless your Mum wants to crop to less than half the picture > and print at A4 don't bother looking above 5Mp. You get little > advantage at 6 or 8Mp by comparison but you do get colour noise > (graininess in saturated colours) which can be most objectionable. > Remember that you only need 3Mp and a half decent lens to get superb > quality for full frame printed at A4 size. Again, point taken, but 6 to 8 Mpix seems to be the current "standard" in the range of cameras I'm looking at. I'm not sure about your 3Mpix statement (though I recognise that you aren't the only person to say this, and I've seen similar in magazines as well as here). I've not seen a lot of digital photographs, but my sister in law has a 3Mpix camera (something small and Canon I think) and personally I would say that the 6x4 prints are fine but 7x5s are a bit ropey. I really wouldn't want to see one of her 3Mpix images professionally printed at A4, though I can see that on a home-bound inkjet or (possibly) laser they might be acceptable.
Thanks for the help :-)
Hwyl!
M.
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harrogate2 - 19 Aug 2005 22:43 GMT Expensive World are doing the EOS300D kit (i.e. including 18-55mm lens - equiv 28-90mm at 35mm) for £499.87.
The shutter delay that I quoted does NOT include memory writing. If you pre-focus (by holding the shutter release half pressed) then any camera will take the picture almost instantly when you apply the full shutter pressure. However few take it quickly if you press the shutter fully from the start. I have a Ricoh Caplio RR30 which is reckoned to take the picture within 220mS of a full shutter press - and I can vouch for that. Their current R1V, R2, and GX8 all seem to be similar. If you want to see real slow, try one of the Nikon compacts in the 4000 or 5000 series - five seconds is quick there!
The comment about 3Mp being enough for A4 is from personal experience but you can work it out:- Newprint is about 75dpi 'Normal' photoprints are around 130-150dpi. Glossy mag front covers are around 200dpi. Take A4 to be about 10x8: at 200dpi this will be 2000x1600 pixels or about 3.2Mp. QED (although doubtless someone will flame me and argue with the maths, but the principle is probably right.)
One thing that affects final quality is the physical size of the CCD chip. One of the early Nikons - D1? - had only a 2Mp chip but it would knock spots off most 5Mp compacts.
As for the quantity of pixels - most people who don't understand just follow the 'who can use the most pixels' race. As I said earlier - and again from personal experience - 5Mp is plenty enough for most uses. 6Mp is useable, but 8Mp certainly does show noise in saturated colours without much subjective overall picture quality improvement. (Noise: look at a saturated blue or red on your TV screen with an off-air signal and you will see it seems to be 'snowing' slightly - this is electrical noise.)
What affects the final picture most is the computation done on the picture before it is saved, especially if it is in jpeg format. There is much discussion at the moment, but RAW format is the best to use - it is effectively a digital negative - and is proprietry to most manufacturers. It does require some adjustment - usually sharpening - but that is in your control by your editing software, not at the choice of the camera manufacturer's designers. Not all cameras have RAW capability.
Having been a keen photographer for over 30 years and having had digital of some form for about five I can only offer comments from my own experience which may differ from others. However when anyone has asked me which camera to buy I always give the same answer: go to a good and well stocked camera shop on a mid-week morning knowing roughly what you want and how much you want to spend. Ask the shop to get the cameras of you choice out on the counter and play with them. Sure as eggs is eggs one of them (if you're lucky more than one) will feel 'right' and that is the one you should buy. At the end of the day you have got to live with the thing!
-- Woody
harrogate2 at ntlworld dot com
Simon Waldman - 20 Aug 2005 08:32 GMT > The comment about 3Mp being enough for A4 is from personal experience > but you can work it out:- > Newprint is about 75dpi > 'Normal' photoprints are around 130-150dpi. > Glossy mag front covers are around 200dpi. ...but optical prints on photographic paper from a Fuji Frontier or an Agfa D-lab are 300dpi or 400dpi respectively.
And yes, I can tell the difference.
At 300dpi, 8x10" is 7.2Mp. And A4 is actually closer to 8x12"... (slightly less in fact)
Most of the A4 samples that I see from manufacturers of 3-4Mp cameras look slightly dodgy to me - although this is probably not helped by the fact that they are usually oversharpened too.
Having said all this, I totally agree with the number of pixels not always being the most important thing. I'm told that sensor size makes a difference, although I'm not sure why, but the other huge thing which gets forgotten in the race for big numbers is the lens quality! You can have as many pixels as you like, but if you're projecting a fuzzy image onto them....
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Trev - 20 Aug 2005 11:58 GMT >> The comment about 3Mp being enough for A4 is from personal experience >> but you can work it out:- [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Agfa D-lab are 300dpi or 400dpi respectively. > And yes, I can tell the difference. You can actually see a dot of 300 the of an inch never mind 400th
Do the labs auto intapolat or do they print by inches whatever the res of the supplied image
> At 300dpi, 8x10" is 7.2Mp. And A4 is actually closer to 8x12"... (slightly > less in fact) [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > many pixels as you like, but if you're projecting a fuzzy image onto > them.... Simon Waldman - 20 Aug 2005 15:50 GMT > You can actually see a dot of 300 the of an inch never mind 400th I can see the dots from a Frontier. One of the reasons that I don't particularly like these machines is that the actual dots they put down are too sharp (of course it looks fine from more than 4 inches away!). I can't see the dots from an Agfa d-lab. I don't know whether this is due to teh 33% greater resolution or just because the "dots" are softer.
> Do the labs auto intapolat or do they print by inches whatever the res of > the supplied image Not sure I understand the question. Usually they take what you give them and scale it to the size you specify (presumably they interpolate when they do this).
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John Cartmell - 20 Aug 2005 10:26 GMT > The comment about 3Mp being enough for A4 is from personal experience > but you can work it out:- > Newprint is about 75dpi > 'Normal' photoprints are around 130-150dpi. > Glossy mag front covers are around 200dpi. I'd find my job far easier if they were! Try 300dpi - or better.
And assume 90dpi for good web graphics.
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Trev - 20 Aug 2005 12:06 GMT >> The comment about 3Mp being enough for A4 is from personal experience >> but you can work it out:- [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > And assume 90dpi for good web graphics. I think he means LPI Lines per inch. Even if his figures are wrong. Web graphics have no Pixele, dots, or drops per inch Resalution just a hight by width in pixels.
John Cartmell - 20 Aug 2005 16:47 GMT > >> The comment about 3Mp being enough for A4 is from personal experience > >> but you can work it out:- [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > > > And assume 90dpi for good web graphics.
> I think he means LPI Lines per inch. Even if his figures are wrong. Web > graphics have no Pixele, dots, or drops per inch Resalution just a hight by > width in pixels. If web graphics have no dots or pixels what do they have? And if you expect them to be seen at (approximately) a certain size (measurable in inches ...
Get a high enough resolution and screen sized monitor and all the assumptions go out of the window of course - but my guidance is good for ordinary people. ;-)
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Trev - 20 Aug 2005 17:12 GMT >> >> The comment about 3Mp being enough for A4 is from personal experience >> >> but you can work it out:- [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > them to be seen at (approximately) a certain size (measurable in inches > ... They have pixels but they dont need any pixels per inch resolution saved with the image A 800 x 600 pixel image will fill a screen displaying 800 x 600 pixels but not a 1024 x 768 but it will be 800 x 600 pixels that will never change no mater how big or small the monitor. If its displayed on a 24 inch screen with a display res of 1024 x 768 It will just leave enough space around it for the Explore window. So it maters not be it 72, 96, or 200 ppi when its displayed on a scree , web or TV the ppi is only a factor used to deterring the printed image size.
> Get a high enough resolution and screen sized monitor and all the > assumptions > go out of the window of course - but my guidance is good for ordinary > people. > ;-) John Cartmell - 20 Aug 2005 23:13 GMT > >> >> The comment about 3Mp being enough for A4 is from personal experience > >> >> but you can work it out:- Newprint is about 75dpi 'Normal' [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > They have pixels but they dont need any pixels per inch resolution saved > with the image I don't need to consciously save any image with a specific dpi. But if I prepare an image at 90dpi then incorporate it into a web page without stipulating a specific size (ie let it set itself at 100%) then it will look OK without wasting space and time.
> A 800 x 600 pixel image will fill a screen displaying 800 x 600 pixels but > not a 1024 x 768 but it will be 800 x 600 pixels that will never change no [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > displayed on a scree , web or TV the ppi is only a factor used to > deterring the printed image size. Well I tend to prepare web pages at 1024 x 768 with 90dpi images.
> > Get a high enough resolution and screen sized monitor and all the > > assumptions go out of the window of course - but my guidance is good for > > ordinary people. ;-) Just guidance. You won't ordinarily get a range as wide as you suggest.
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James Hart - 20 Aug 2005 23:43 GMT >>>>>> The comment about 3Mp being enough for A4 is from personal >>>>>> experience but you can work it out:- Newprint is about 75dpi [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Well I tend to prepare web pages at 1024 x 768 with 90dpi images. But the site in your sig is sized to 800 wide. How do your 90dpi images know what size my monitor is?
John Cartmell - 21 Aug 2005 21:11 GMT > >>>>>> The comment about 3Mp being enough for A4 is from personal > >>>>>> experience but you can work it out:- Newprint is about 75dpi [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > > > Well I tend to prepare web pages at 1024 x 768 with 90dpi images.
> But the site in your sig is sized to 800 wide. How do your 90dpi images know > what size my monitor is? It doesn't. And I'm willing to bet that we'd be on the same side against all those people who don't know the difference between DTP and Web Design. The figures quotyed were approx guidelines. 90dpi is a fairly good guideline for average sort of web graphics - just as 300-360 dpi is a good giuidline for magazine pictures. But the latter will vary for a number of reasons and I may need 600dpi for some pictures and make do with 200dpi for others (or even none - or infinite - which is my preferred option!). Advising the use of 90dpi at least says that it should be much lower than that required for magazines - and one could go on to give very good reasons for very particular sizes. And after lots of calculations you'd find that those very good reasons would give something close to what most people producing 90dpi graphics and dropping it onto their web pages at 100% would get.
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Liz - 21 Aug 2005 22:26 GMT > It doesn't. And I'm willing to bet that we'd be on the same side against all > those people who don't know the difference between DTP and Web Design. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Grief, John - Fixed width web design!!! This is OT here; I hope you never have cause to visit uk.net.web.authoring! (Or if you do, wear your heaviest flameproof suit.)
Slainte
Liz
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Geoff Berrow - 31 Aug 2005 12:31 GMT I noticed that Message-ID: <57bc179e4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net> from Liz contained the following:
>> It doesn't. And I'm willing to bet that we'd be on the same side against all >> those people who don't know the difference between DTP and Web Design. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >uk.net.web.authoring! >(Or if you do, wear your heaviest flameproof suit.) He'd be a bit foolish to mention it in uk.education.schools-it as well. The dogs would have him... ;-)
(Sorry I'm late - been on holiday)
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John Cartmell - 31 Aug 2005 12:55 GMT > I noticed that Message-ID: <57bc179e4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net> from > Liz contained the following:
> >> It doesn't. And I'm willing to bet that we'd be on the same side against > >> all those people who don't know the difference between DTP and Web [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >have cause to visit uk.net.web.authoring! (Or if you do, wear your > >heaviest flameproof suit.)
> He'd be a bit foolish to mention it in uk.education.schools-it as well. > The dogs would have him... ;-) I *am* the dog on uk.education.schools-it that would savage anyone confusing DTP with Web Design! ;-)
> (Sorry I'm late - been on holiday) Presumably you're now back in harness. ;-)
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Geoff Berrow - 31 Aug 2005 17:15 GMT I noticed that Message-ID: <4da309de96john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> from John Cartmell contained the following:
>> (Sorry I'm late - been on holiday) > >Presumably you're now back in harness. ;-) Yeah, it's wuff in FE.
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John Bean - 19 Aug 2005 09:21 GMT >> Consider finding an A2 rather than a A200. All the same >> advantages plus 8 *much* better EVF. > >The main problem being about a £300 difference in price if I read my >specs correctly. The A2 is discontinued and heavily discounted if you can find one. The RRP has no meaning at all.
> I was hovering around the £500 mark. Even when the A2 was current it didn't cost £800. I bought one last year for under £600, and that was from a local dealer.
>If you are seriously suggesting that £300 makes that much difference to the >electronic viewfinder then no thanks, I'd rather go SLR for the same >money. The EVF of the A2 is unique and never bettered. As EVFs go it's as good as any you'll ever see, and it's *big* as well as sharp.
SLRs are a different category; it's unlikely that any current SLR/lens combination offering the same range/performance of the A2/A200 will be small/light enough for the purpose intended, but only you know that for sure.
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John Bean
Trev - 19 Aug 2005 01:04 GMT > Consider finding an A2 rather than a A200. All the same > advantages plus 8 *much* better EVF. Now I was going to say That.I'm a Happy 7 hi user and think I would Lose out If I got a A200
nick J - 19 Aug 2005 10:32 GMT Why not persuade her that it is ok to develop her film with less than 24 exposures used. She could get them scanned at the same time. Enabling her to make prints at home.
I'm not anti-digital, I use a dSLR myself but if she's comfortable using the OM1n why not continue using it. It is a lovely camera after all and she has the lenses she needs.
Nick J
Martin Angove - 19 Aug 2005 20:50 GMT > Why not persuade her that it is ok to develop her film with less than > 24 exposures used. She could get them scanned at the same time. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > using the OM1n why not continue using it. It is a lovely camera after > all and she has the lenses she needs. Hmmm... yes, she's been using this particular OM1n since 1981, on and off. I've taken hundreds of photos using it and love it to bits. It isn't mum that's had this idea to go digital, but dad, but I can see how it would work for mum. Running cost isn't really the issue given that she uses no more than a dozen films a year, but a couple of other things are:
* The OM1n is in need of a major service (couple of bits falling off, back isn't reliably light tight etc.) and so if this camera is to be kept then money will have to be spent on it. (The main broken bit is the film rewind lever. It is a very difficult and painful (honestly) task to rewind a roll of film, especially with her arthritic hands).
* Although mum has a 28mm and a 50mm lens at hand, and knows how to change them, she often can't be bothered, or hasn't carried the alternate with her, and has trouble framing shots as a result. A zoom has to be the answer which again means more money spent on the OM1n.
* Believe it or not, our local 1 hour processor no longer sells (much) film! In stock at the moment they have Fuji Sensia (slide film) and an own brand print film based on Agfa something in 200ASA only.
* She's finding it more and more difficult to use the split-centre focus. This isn't often a problem for landscapes, but can be for her close-up shots of gravestones etc. (see earlier post) in particular in low-light situations where half the split often goes black.
* She does a lot of painting from photographs. At the moment she can scan them and print them out larger, but her scanner has also seen better days (it only has OS9 drivers and only runs with a minimal set of options under third-party drivers on OSX) and although she *could* get the photos put onto CD by the local 1-hour people, it adds three or four quid to the price of developing (Agfa machine). Jessops and Boots with the Fuji machines are better at around a pound or two, but they're in Cardiff and visits to Cardiff are rare. Anyway, we like to feel we're supporting local businesses (Walters are local to South Wales).
* Some of her photographs are taken for other family historians and often they prefer them via email. Same argument as above.
* She has written a book about our family history ( http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/wj/book.html ) which has a lot of her photographs in it. They all had to be professionally scanned, and in some cases the negatives were missing. There is a supplement "in production" and photographs which are already in the digital domain would be very useful.
* Dad needs to buy her a birthday present and can't think of anything else.
* I'm really keen to see how a decent digital camera works as although I'm not in the market for one at the moment, I may be within the next couple of years.
Ok, the last two are a bit funny, but you get the drift :-)
Hwyl!
M.
 Signature Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/ Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology ... One way to better your lot is to do a lot better...
Roger Merriman - 19 Aug 2005 11:03 GMT > Newbie warning :-) Long post, sorry. I have done a bit of a search, but > I've not yet found a "what camera" thread which has quite the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > show its age, and she tends to take less than a film-full at a time > which can make for frustrating delays between visits to the developer. snips.
> Erm, that's about it really. To summarise, I think my mum needs a camera > with: [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > Caerphilly) to "try before buy" so any models which are only available > at specific retailers or online are not really under consideration. snips
> TIA for any advice. > > Hwyl! > > M. i think i would be tempted to either take nicks advice and stay with her old OM1n or to look for a 2nd had DSLR, they are coming down in price now, though the loss of the wide end would probably be a problem.
the advanatges are that the DSLR is likely to be more simular in use, a chunker more robust body, but it will be pricer particlly if you get wide angle lences, and your unlikely to get 6mp at a cheap price, though of course size isn't every thing and having a good lence etc...
Roger
Alan Clifford - 19 Aug 2005 22:37 GMT MA> MA> Based on extensive research (three magazines and a couple of evenings on MA> the interweb) I'm particularly interested in the Konica Minolta A200 and MA> the Olympus C7070 (or 8080). I realise that these are close to MA> low-end DSLR prices, but when you factor in the cost of a lens they MA> begin to look much cheaper. At the moment I favour the A200 for three MA> reasons:
Sounds like your mother would benefit from the stabilizer too - the reviews say that it is worth up to about three stops of speed (if that is the way to describe it) with the telephotos.
I've been looking at much longer zooms to replace my ageing Olympus 730 but was shown the A200 in Harpers in Woking and I did like it. The manual zoom seems great. It has a filter thread on the lens rather than needing tube gizmo.
What no one seems to discuss these days is depth of field - too much of it - that seems to be the result of the physically small lenses due to the physically small sensors of digital cameras. The cameras you mentioned seem to have relatively large sensors but they are small compared to 35 mm film. Your mother is obviously not just a point-and-shoot snapper, so this might be a consideration. I am considering taking a card into the shop and asking if I can take a few photos on it.
The LCD viewfinders might take a bit of getting used too, and different camera have a different number of pixels in their LCDs.
Go have a look at a few in the camera shop.
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Lofty - 20 Aug 2005 00:25 GMT Tell her to stick to film, its much cheaper and far superior
> MA> > MA> Based on extensive research (three magazines and a couple of evenings on [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Go have a look at a few in the camera shop. shee - 20 Aug 2005 11:33 GMT > Tell her to stick to film, its much cheaper and far superior > > <snip> Hello Here is a viewpoint from someone who loves photography, and is in similar age and physical condition to Martin's Mum, but without the in-depth knowledge.
My first digital camera was a Fuji MX1200 - and it taught me a lot, but eventually I knew that it simply did not do all the things I wanted it to do. I took a trip to a small camera specialist shop where I knew they would advise me properly and not treat me like an idiot granny with no business "being technical". I left the shop with an Olympus C-70 Zoom.
This camera does everything I ask of it, and more, and takes superb photos. I wear glasses and don't take them off to use the view-finder. The camera, with spare battery and cards, is small enough to live in my handbag, but it is big enough for the zoom control and buttons to be used very easily by large, stiffening fingers. It is almost impossible to delete a photo accidentally. The screen is large, though I only use it occasionally for checking a photo, or for flicking through a number of photos to find a particular one. The genuine Olympus battery is expensive, but lasts 3 times as long a the cheap alternatives.
It has a number of special settings - sport, portrait, landscape, night, panorama - and a lot of other settings for lens, speed, aperture and so on which speak to me of "normal" cameras, which I have never had and do not understand. I mostly keep the setting at auto-focus and sport - probably not the right thing to do, but works for me. Changing the settings is very simple but time-consuming, and since most of my photography is spur of the moment, time is a luxury I don't have.
On the down side, it does not have any protection against camera shake, and I can never guarantee that the photos I take will turn out right, especially when taking photos from a moving vehicle (which I often do from the passenger seat!). For night shots a tripod (or other firm base) is essential. I find that it is not good in dim lighting, such as churches, without flash for the same reason - my hand is not steady enough to hold the camera perfectly still for the delayed exposure. But maybe if the settings (in the group I don't understand) were altered it would be better.
I hope this helps you with your decisions. Sheila sheila-e@blueyblueyonder.co.uk remove one bluey to reply).
Martin Angove - 20 Aug 2005 20:45 GMT > > Tell her to stick to film, its much cheaper and far superior > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > age and physical condition to Martin's Mum, but without the in-depth > knowledge. [...]
I wouldn't say my mum has particularly "in depth" knowledge of photography, but she is very used to her OM1n and knows how to make decent pictures using it. Thanks for your encouraging post, you're making me feel a lot better about my dad's "hare brained" scheme ;-)
Hwyl!
M.
 Signature Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/ Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology ... Be *excellent* to each other
Martin Angove - 20 Aug 2005 10:49 GMT > MA> > MA> Based on extensive research (three magazines and a couple of evenings on [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > reviews say that it is worth up to about three stops of speed (if that > is the way to describe it) with the telephotos. Not that she is likely to use the telephoto end much (though dad might) but it might just make that low-light shot more achievable.
> I've been looking at much longer zooms to replace my ageing Olympus 730 > but was shown the A200 in Harpers in Woking and I did like it. The manual > zoom seems great. It has a filter thread on the lens rather than needing > tube gizmo. Yes, I think I said that a filter thread was one of the priorities. This is one reason I'm not looking at the normal compact-compacts; even if they go down to 28mm, they rarely have a filter thread.
> What no one seems to discuss these days is depth of field - too much of it > - that seems to be the result of the physically small lenses due to the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > this might be a consideration. I am considering taking a card into the > shop and asking if I can take a few photos on it. Since all the cameras I've been looking at will take CF, I'm thinking of doing the same. Depth of field is an interesting issue. Mum probably wouldn't use it creatively, though I have seen a few shots from her where she has framed a distant landscape using a slightly out-of-focus tree or hedge or something in the forground, but a camera that is relatively "fast" and can therefore use smallish apertures will certainly help with the focussing, not that that should be an issue with AF!
> The LCD viewfinders might take a bit of getting used too, and different > camera have a different number of pixels in their LCDs. I suspect that she'll mainly be using the viewfinder, hence the reason for discounting many cameras with EVFs unless the reviews say they are excellent.
> Go have a look at a few in the camera shop. I tried that this morning. I've been having all sorts of community-related feelings about supporting local businesses and as I was dropping a film off this morning anyway, I asked at the shop whether it would be possible to arrange to audition the C7070 and the A200. Note that I didn't want to see them immediately, but was planning to take dad down there during next week. Granted, they had a C7070 on the shelf, but they didn't have an A200 in any of their shops according to the computer system, and as far as the assistant I spoke to was aware it was "no longer a stock item". What? I was under the impression that this was a fairly recent camera.
Not only that but the C7070 was marked up at £499, discounted to £429. That's a lot more than I've seen it elsewhere...
I've just checked their website which certainly still lists the A200, at £399 which oddly is less than the C7070. Oh well.
Hwyl!
M.
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Andy Champ - 20 Aug 2005 18:30 GMT <snip>
>help with the focussing, not that that should be an issue with AF! Oh yes it will! I have AF only, and it's a PITA sometimes. You won't believe how many fuzzy shots of Red Kites I have... I really think manual is easier than this "point at object at right distance, half press, frame picture, full press" I sometimes have to do.
Andy
Martin Angove - 20 Aug 2005 20:33 GMT > <snip> > >help with the focussing, not that that should be an issue with AF! [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > manual is easier than this "point at object at right distance, half > press, frame picture, full press" I sometimes have to do. I have to say that my experience of AF on various film SLRs isn't altogether perfect. For some reason I assumed that things might have improved. Certainly the AF on my dad's camcorder seems to get it right most of the time. I don't know how easy manual focusing is going to be on an LCD or an EVF, but I think the A200 at least has a focus ring which at least makes focusing "SLR-like".
And if the EVF isn't detailed enough then perhaps a small aperture is called for after all :-)
Hwyl!
M.
 Signature Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/ Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology ... M-O-O-N and that spells Corn Pops.
Andy Champ - 21 Aug 2005 22:43 GMT > I have to say that my experience of AF on various film SLRs isn't > altogether perfect. For some reason I assumed that things might have [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > M. The AF is pretty good... but...
Trying to get a decent photo of a Kite is driving me up the wall. One will pop over a hill. I have to power the camera up, aim, zoom in, override exposure so the bird and not the sky is correct, half-press so AF locks in on it... by which time it's gone. A real manual would let me preset all that.
Apart from that the only real stopper I had was once trying to take the moon through branches. It insisted on focussing on the branches, not the moon. It's not that the AF makes mistakes, so much as it sometimes chooses the wrong subject and can be slow.
Andy.
Ken Wright - 20 Aug 2005 17:32 GMT Might also want to take a look at the Canon Powershot S2 IS
http://www.warehouseexpress.co.uk/
circa £350 so won't break your bank. New model, 5MP images, 12x Optical zoom, Image stabilisation (Which will probably be good for Mum) yadda yadda yadda....
That 8080 also looks nice though :-)
Regards Ken....................
Ken Wright - 20 Aug 2005 18:36 GMT Powershot G6 and the Powershot Pro1 also look very nice, and both below budget with lots of nice features.
http://www.warehouseexpress.co.uk/index.cfm?photo/digicameras/canon.html
Regards Ken.................
> Might also want to take a look at the Canon Powershot S2 IS > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Regards > Ken.................... Martyn Rowland - 20 Aug 2005 22:18 GMT How about a Sony DSC F828 - 8MP and you can get them for around £400 now - 28mm - 200mm lens in 35mm terms...
> Newbie warning :-) Long post, sorry. I have done a bit of a search, but > I've not yet found a "what camera" thread which has quite the [quoted text clipped - 115 lines] > > M. Lofty - 20 Aug 2005 23:21 GMT Keep to film, digital may have some things going for it but don't forget that if she buys digital, then she will need a computer plus the relevant software to edit them on, also a good printer to print them out on. Also she will need lessons on how to work the software etc this puts the cost up tremendously, (can be £K's) and the inks on the prints fade if displayed in the light for too long, and most of the pictures taken by digital cameras stay on the computer and never get printed. There are lots of used good spec AF film camera's around at a very affordable price, do the job much better than a small digital Happy snapping
> How about a Sony DSC F828 - 8MP and you can get them for around £400 now - > 28mm - 200mm lens in 35mm terms... [quoted text clipped - 117 lines] > > > > M. Neil Barker - 21 Aug 2005 01:14 GMT > Keep to film, digital may have some things going for it but don't forget > that if she buys digital, then she will need a computer plus the relevant > software to edit them on, also a good printer to print them out on. Nah she doesn't. She can just as easily take them to Boots, ASDA etc and have them print the images straight from the card - almost as if it were film. She doesn't *have* to edit them on a computer first - desirable yes, but not essential.
(Humongous amount of overquote snipped)
 Signature Neil Barker
Alan Clifford - 21 Aug 2005 13:29 GMT NB> In article <4307b9bb$0$1314$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>, NB> miduck8@hotmail.com says... NB> > Keep to film, digital may have some things going for it but don't forget NB> > that if she buys digital, then she will need a computer plus the relevant NB> > software to edit them on, also a good printer to print them out on. NB> NB> Nah she doesn't. She can just as easily take them to Boots, ASDA etc NB> and have them print the images straight from the card - almost as if it NB> were film. She doesn't *have* to edit them on a computer first - NB> desirable yes, but not essential. NB>
And the Christmas present problem is solved - one of the rather nice dye-sub printers. We a little Canon one. And with a Pictbridge camera, you can connect the camera directly to it.
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Ken Wright - 21 Aug 2005 17:01 GMT And in actual fact, at Asda at least, you can even edit them on their machines when you put them in for processing. All simple stuff with wizards to help, and excellent prints at the end of it. At £5 for 50 6x4s or £7 for 50 7x5s or 25p each for 9x6s they certainly won't break the bank.
Regards Ken....................
harrogate2 - 21 Aug 2005 19:55 GMT > And in actual fact, at Asda at least, you can even edit them on their > machines when you put them in for processing. All simple stuff with wizards [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Regards > Ken.................... .........and their quality is pretty good as well!
-- Woody
harrogate2 at ntlworld dot com
Roger Whitehead - 21 Aug 2005 01:40 GMT > Also she > will need lessons on how to work the software etc this puts the cost up > tremendously, (can be £K's) Rubbish. There are several simple and easy to learn packages available. Some, such as Picasa2, are free. Even the much more powerful Photoshop Elements 3 can be got for around £40 on the Web.
 Signature Roger
Liz - 21 Aug 2005 14:06 GMT > Keep to film, digital may have some things going for it but don't forget > that if she buys digital, then she will need a computer plus the relevant [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the light for too long, and most of the pictures taken by digital cameras > stay on the computer and never get printed. All true: But if she opts for Photoshop, the "Classroom in a Book" is fantastic, and avoids the need for a class. I'm not sure if there's a similar publication for Elements - someone else will know.
OTOH, if she signs for a class, e.g. with a college which provides email addresses, she can get Photoshop at a vastly reduced educational price. Basically any educational email address will do: our janitorial and office staff count too, for example.
Inkjet Prints (from an Epson 1290) on my wall at school facing a wall of windows (indirect sun for most of the day, admittedly) haven't 'obviously' changed ('looking', not a technical test) compared to a 'control' kept in a cupboard over two years, so I'm not sure what the 'fading' timescale is. If I had somewhere to do it, I'd do a strip test in full light ...
Very few of my conventional prints or slides are 'used' on a regular basis: in fact, most are binned (less 'guilt' with digital!), and many of those which aren't are consigned to an album or filing cabinet. Other people's mileage may vary on this, of course!
Slainte
Liz
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Martin Angove - 21 Aug 2005 16:11 GMT > Keep to film, digital may have some things going for it but don't forget > that if she buys digital, then she will need a computer Already has a pretty decent computer - Mac Mini - and is pretty conversant with its use, having been a computer user for ten years or more, and a Mac user since 1999.
> plus the relevant software to edit them on, Probably won't want to do much editing, a bit of cropping or resizing perhaps, maybe some colour or contrast adjustment. There is free stuff "out there" which will do that. Come to think of it, some of it comes bundled with OSX.
> also a good printer to print them out on. HP colour laser already in everyday use. I have a photo inkjet (6-ink Canon S450) that she can borrow if she feels it necessary.
> Also she will need lessons on how to work the software etc this puts > the cost up tremendously, (can be £K's) As I said, I don't think she's going to be doing that much on the software side, and I'm only a couple of miles up the road so that's "training" covered, not that she isn't perfectly capable of working most things out for herself using built-in help.
> and the inks on the prints fade if displayed in the light for too > long, I dare say they do, but so do "normal" photographs.
> and most of the pictures taken by digital cameras stay on the computer > and never get printed. And most of the prints from each roll of film are stuck in a cupboard and never see the light of day again. Assuming she archives to CD, 2 or 300 digital photographs on each CD takes up considerably less storage space than 2 or 300 six-by-fours, and with the right organisation they'll also be easier to search. She also has boxes and boxes of 35mm slides from the 1960s and 1970s, and dad has quite a few 2" slides knocking about which we can't even project any more. I suppose we could scan them...
> There are lots of used good spec AF film camera's around at a very > affordable price, do the job much better than a small digital Happy > snapping Ignoring the errant apostrophe, if you re-read my OP (which you quoted below your reply) you'll realise that what my mother does is far from "happy snapping". "Happy snapping" is what my 4-year-old does, and I feel we were perfectly justified buying him a £20 (plus £10 card) digital camera, considering that maybe 80 or 90% of his photographs are worthy of instant discarding.
Briefly, my mother uses an Olympus OM1n SLR at the moment. This is a "classic" SLR and is still a favourite among many photographers, despite the only exposure aid it offers being a little needle-style light meter. She takes landscapes mainly, and also some shots for "recording" purposes (the gravestones etc. I mentioned). The lanscapes are often used to paint from.
If she is going to stay with film then she's going to keep the OM1n as she is used to it and has been using it since 1981 IIRC. AF might be handy as her eyesight isn't quite what it used to be, but it's far from essential at the moment. However, the OM1n is in need of a major service and so we would be spending money on it anyway. Dad came up with the idea of going digital having seen a digital camera belonging to a friend of his.
Far from proposing to replace the OM1n with a "small digital", if you note the rest of the thread, I'm considering high-end digital compacts that are 6Mpix or better, have a wide angle lens of 28mm (35mm equiv), and preferably a filter thread. One that is "chunky" and looks and feels "SLR-like" would help her arthritic hands enormously, and anti-shake, while not a deal-breaker, would be good too. When you put those considerations down, it instantly discards a large proportion of the compacts available. In particular, the 28mm requirement knocks out most of the smaller 6Mpix+ compacts, and loses nearly all the 5Mpix bunch. Low-end dSLRs also disappear as their 28mm lenses add considerably to the purchase cost.
Any more considered suggestions gladly received.
Hwyl!
M.
 Signature Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/ Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology ... I'm not lost! I'm locationally challenged.
Roger Whitehead - 21 Aug 2005 22:39 GMT > Any more considered suggestions gladly received. Have you looked at the Olympus C-7070? 7.1-megapixel, 27mm-110mm (35mm equivalent) focal length, chunky in the hand, quality your mother will be used to and plenty of scope to experiment and learn. About £350.
Here's one review - http://www.steves-digicams.com/2005_reviews/c7070_pg2.html .
(Owning up to bias - I bought one a few weeks ago and am very pleased with it. I used to be an OM owner, too.)
 Signature Roger
Martin Angove - 22 Aug 2005 10:39 GMT > > Any more considered suggestions gladly received. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > (Owning up to bias - I bought one a few weeks ago and am very pleased with > it. I used to be an OM owner, too.) As you will see from the OP, the C7070 (and its bigger brother, the 8080) is one of the three cameras I originally considered (the Konica A200 being the other). The only real point against the C7070 that I can see at the moment is the lack of a filter thread (AFAICS). Although the A200 has the zoom ring, anti-shake and the apparently good EVF in its favour, there is at least one review which casts doubt on its ability to focus properly while the C7070 gets top marks for focusing and excellent comments on its auto exposure modes.
Am about to try to arrange auditions... the local camera shop has a 7070 on the shelf, but no sign of an A200.
Hwyl!
M.
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Trev - 22 Aug 2005 12:03 GMT >> > Any more considered suggestions gladly received. >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > M. Its not so much its ability to focus correctly as its ability to shift the focus points, something the user can control but if not noticed can be off the main subject and on the background.
Roger Whitehead - 22 Aug 2005 12:38 GMT > As you will see from the OP Life's too short to read back that far. 8-)
> the lack of a filter thread (AFAICS) It takes 40.5mm diameter filters. I've got a UV filter permanently on mine to protect the front element.
 Signature Roger
Martin Angove - 22 Aug 2005 17:01 GMT > > As you will see from the OP > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > :-) I went back to the photos of the camera after posting that and noticed that there was after all a thread. Interesting that although two of the A200 reviews I've seen make a point about a filter thread, none of the C7070 ones even mention it (though to be fair, it is mentioned in one C8080 review).
The only problem is that mum takes landscapes, I tend to advise her to bung the polariser on for landscapes (does interesting things with skies, grass and still water), yet with an optical viewfinder, how will you judge the effect? I presume it'll show up on the LCD, but in bright sun (which is when the polariser works best) LCDs tend to be unusable IME...
Hwyl!
M.
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Roger Whitehead - 22 Aug 2005 19:12 GMT > I presume it'll show up on the LCD Yep.
> but in bright > sun (which is when the polariser works best) LCDs tend to be unusable You can vary the LCD's brightness. I haven't tried the result in bright sun, mainly because I've so far always been able to tilt it to a readable angle. On a tripod (which I assume your mother's using for panos), you can shield it from the sun.
 Signature Roger
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