Photo Forum / Photo Technique / People Photography / June 2005
So what's all this "photojournalism" wedding and events thing about?
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bayareamusician@hotmail.com - 28 May 2005 23:33 GMT In my area (San Francisco Bay) there's a lot of folks asking for "photojournalism" style wedding and people photos. OK, I shot a lot of photojournalism before and I always looked for action. Like, the subject should be doing something interesting, have intriguing facial expressions, there was an event to rally around, confrontation, etc. Anyway, I was always able to get some good shots that editors liked.
So, now with all this newfound request for photojournalism in a controlled setting....well, is that essentially candids and no posed photos? At a wedding, for example, people don't want the traditional posed photo to frame and put on the desk? Or at a people event, people standing around with glass in hand looking gloom or talking trash with other corporate stiffs? Actually, I find in these settings the posed or semi-posed photos are more redeeming. At least they'll put on face if they know I'm shooting! Any insights?
Mxsmanic - 28 May 2005 23:56 GMT > In my area (San Francisco Bay) there's a lot of folks asking for > "photojournalism" style wedding and people photos. OK, I shot a lot of > photojournalism before and I always looked for action. Like, the > subject should be doing something interesting, have intriguing facial > expressions, there was an event to rally around, confrontation, etc. > Anyway, I was always able to get some good shots that editors liked. Ideally, that's what "journalistic" wedding photography should be.
The problem is that not all wedding clients understand what photojournalism is, and they might be surprised if they actually get what they asked for.
> So, now with all this newfound request for photojournalism in a > controlled setting....well, is that essentially candids and no posed > photos? That's how I interpret it; but I'm not sure that clients understand it that way.
When someone asks me to shoot a wedding (which I will only do in the "photojournalistic" style), I emphasize again and again the relatively random nature of journalistic photography, and I emphasize that there is no guarantee that any specific picture will be taken. Clients must understand that you can pose photos or you can take photos in a journalistic style, but you can't do both at the same time, as they are mutually exclusive.
> At a wedding, for example, people don't want the traditional > posed photo to frame and put on the desk? Or at a people event, people > standing around with glass in hand looking gloom or talking trash with > other corporate stiffs? Actually, I find in these settings the posed or > semi-posed photos are more redeeming. At least they'll put on face if > they know I'm shooting! Any insights? It's a gray area and potentially dangerous territory. People will ask for photojournalism in weddings and then may complain when they don't get the formal, posed shots they expect for a wedding. I'll shoot weddings in photojournalistic style if I'm absolutely convinced that the client knows exactly what she will be getting, but it takes a lot of discussion and verification to make sure that there are no misunderstandings.
It is conceivable, by the way, that a wedding might be photographed both ways, by two different photographers. Since they are two different styles, there's not much overlap between the two, and it might be nice to have both.
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Al Denelsbeck - 29 May 2005 16:00 GMT > In my area (San Francisco Bay) there's a lot of folks asking for > "photojournalism" style wedding and people photos. OK, I shot a lot of [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > semi-posed photos are more redeeming. At least they'll put on face if > they know I'm shooting! Any insights? "Photojournalism", when used with wedding photography, has a lot of different definitions. It's important to find out what it is the client wants, rather than attempt to define for them what it was they asked for. So basically, forget what it means in other circumstances ;-)
In most cases, PJ means avoiding the stale and over-posed shots in front of the altar, everyone lined up and forcing a smile - many people are tired of seeing (and doing) this and recognize it's more discomfort than happiness. But usually, it doesn't mean you can't pose or stage the shot, but instead, simply that it doesn't *look* staged. The images should have the look that you captured a candid moment, but you don't have to torture yourself trying to be in position for a particular fraction of a second.
Also, the point of the 'real' photojournalism was telling a story (and there's not all that much 'real' PJ work being done nowadays either). Thus, a PJ wedding package might feature the bride sprawled on a chair at the edge of the reception hall, looking tired but pleased. Or alternately, exiting the limo at the start of the reception, train gathered over one arm. In the real world, at this point she's probably fumbling with her shoes and the light's right behind her, so staying with strictly candids could be a bad idea.
Most clients would probably expect a low-key approach from the photographer, though - remember the photos are illustrating the ceremony and events, and not supposed to be an integral part. Too many photographers start playing Hollywood director, and anyone looking for 'PJ' probably isn't going to want this. So staging, when done, should be quick and painless.
And yes, definitely some candids. Making a full package of them is damn hard, and quite a few clients won't be pleased with a package that shows how unlively their guests really are, but being able to hit those key moments from a good vantage point is a necessity. Expect to waste more film than normal (and price accordingly), and be rigged to shoot from the hip. Make sure your exposures take in the room to at least a small extent and your flash should be somewhere between fill and main. Nuclear blasts in a dark room don't look "candid".
I suspect most clients equate PJ with black & white, as well, despite the fact that there isn't any particular correlation. Considering your background this is probably useless advice, but make sure you know how to shoot monochrome. A ridiculous number of wedding photographers don't realize that shooting B&W is more than loading a different film.
Hope this helps. Good luck!
- Al.
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Gregory Blank - 30 May 2005 00:12 GMT > In most cases, PJ means avoiding the stale and over-posed shots in > front of the altar, everyone lined up and forcing a smile - many people are > tired of seeing (and doing) this and recognize it's more discomfort than > happiness. Most people no matter how often they say they want PJ style they also want the group shots at the alter,..... if you fail to have that in your repitoire' your going make some people unhappy.
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zeitgeist - 02 Jun 2005 08:09 GMT > In my area (San Francisco Bay) there's a lot of folks asking for > "photojournalism" style wedding and people photos. OK, I shot a lot of [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > semi-posed photos are more redeeming. At least they'll put on face if > they know I'm shooting! Any insights? when I was a kid the average wedding album was 12 8x10s and that was probably because the average photog could carry 12 plate holders in his case. And I'll bet those guys thought that was a lot of film and they couldn't believe that brides were demanding that they drag that stuff down to the church instead of having the couple and family come to the studio like clients have been doing since they invented photography.
I was shooting a twin lens and the buzz was 'candid' photos which of course was totally posed and corny as hell, but the shot count grew to about 100 'proofs' and the albums expanded to hold 5x7's and proofs mixed on pages with the 8x10s.
As the years went by, the shot count grew to a couple hundred.
But here is one fact that really bugs me. The more the client asks, insists, demands more and more candid, documentarian, journalistic coverage of the wedding, the more they order only the posed portraits and groups. Its a schism I just can't explain, you try to say something on the wedding boards, (yikes, don't even think of posting on alt.wedding) the you get flamed as an insensitive jerk, I mean jeez, they want to burn you on your tripod fueled by your prints and frames.
I've been selling my work ala carte for over 25 years, and have been paperless proofing for most of that time, so I'm up close and personal with the client's buying decisions. I charge per image, plus what ever products like albums etc. So when they start selecting they are realizing that the snapshot, really cool of the cousin dancing up a storm, dipping, the whole works, that series is going to cost them $100. what I pose they buy, I shoot a couple rolls of the bride futzing with the makeup, gabbing with the girls, hugging mom and sister, they choose the portrait of her and mom, if I flow pose them, mom and bride look at camera, look at each other, hug and kiss, they will probably buy 3 of the 4. 3 or 4 bridesmaids walking down the aisle, one will blink or look really nervous, out, they buy the portraits, they buy BM with Bride and they buy the BM solo.
The only candids that sell are the ones with blood in them, parents, grandparents, sibs, kids. cousins? best friends? neighbors? co workers? out out out.
Yes sure, they love the results, the story, the sequences, the cute shots of friends having a ball at the reception, the hugs and kisses, the great 'look', the tender hand hold, yeah, they really love them, but they don't order them. I have a great shot, its lovely, it fits, it tells a story, here, I'll put it in the book, cause *I* like it. oh, OK....
That said, there is an amazing transition, the woman putting on her make up and getting ready for the ceremony has ritualistic roots that must harken to the deepest psychological instincts, genetic memories. It just seems that all cultures have remarkably similar rituals in most phases of the marriage ceremony and the woman bathing and painting her face and then putting on clothes that she has never worn before and will never wear again seems to echo back to oldest cave. Its as scripted in DNA as any mating dance of Gitchygoony Swallows on some remote island.
And I tell ya, shooting journalistically is fun. You just shoot away, witness to a privileged private moment and a grand pageant, no hustling and wrangling freaked out brides and dysfunctional family, you just shoot the action (when its appropriately positive) and dash along for the ride. Whee.
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Mxsmanic - 02 Jun 2005 19:13 GMT > I've been selling my work ala carte for over 25 years, and have been > paperless proofing for most of that time, so I'm up close and personal with [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > the aisle, one will blink or look really nervous, out, they buy the > portraits, they buy BM with Bride and they buy the BM solo. The problem is that you are gouging them for individual photos. If I shoot a wedding, I just charge for my time, plus film and development. They get the photos with broad rights to do whatever they want with them. They only have to pay once, and they don't have to pay very much.
> Yes sure, they love the results, the story, the sequences, the cute shots of > friends having a ball at the reception, the hugs and kisses, the great > 'look', the tender hand hold, yeah, they really love them, but they > don't order them. Perhaps because you are still doing things the old way, trying to wring every dime out of the client's wallet.
> And I tell ya, shooting journalistically is fun. You just shoot away, > witness to a privileged private moment and a grand pageant, no hustling and > wrangling freaked out brides and dysfunctional family, you just shoot the > action (when its appropriately positive) and dash along for the ride. Whee. It's profitable, too, if you price it correctly.
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John - 10 Jun 2005 10:50 GMT > In my area (San Francisco Bay) there's a lot of folks asking for > "photojournalism" style wedding and people photos They have no idea what they're asking for. It's something they've read about and simply have no way of knowing what it is but know that "it's supposed to be good". It's 90% marketing and 10% BS. The difference of wedding photojournalists can be summed up as :
Someone who shoots 1000~2000 frames of film on a wedding to capture about 100 acceptable images.
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Helios35966@ayhoo.com - 12 Jun 2005 02:33 GMT Every time I hear this term used, I have a awful urge to photograph a wedding using a Speed Graphic with a big flash gun loaded with Press 25 flashbulbs while wearing a cheap suit and a fedora while smoking a cheap cigar.......WeeGee comes to mind......
> In my area (San Francisco Bay) there's a lot of folks asking for > "photojournalism" style wedding and people photos. OK, I shot a lot of [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > semi-posed photos are more redeeming. At least they'll put on face if > they know I'm shooting! Any insights? zeitgeist - 27 Jun 2005 03:18 GMT > Every time I hear this term used, I have a awful urge to photograph a > wedding using a Speed Graphic with a big flash gun loaded with Press 25 > flashbulbs while wearing a cheap suit and a fedora while smoking a cheap > cigar.......WeeGee comes to mind...... you realize of course that back in his day, he was cutting edge stuff. Consider, previously the wedding couple, sometimes with family and wedding party in tow, would descend on a photographer's studio, usually before the wedding. Having a photographer come TO the wedding and shoot a dozen shots (most camera cases held a dozen plate holders, one sheet on each side, so 24 frames, usually they shot two of each 'pose' and that is why albums come with 12 pages to start, mattes come bundled by the dozen, instead of ten etc.
So I can just hear some photographer gripping about some dame that just left the shop, muttering that he knew this would happen once you gave ladies the right to vote, that next they would start demanding more services, why this gal just came and wanted me to come down to the church, I mean haul all this stuff to shoot the photos there, now how can you take all these lights, and where are you going to plug in a 2,000 watt spot, much less three or four of them, and she said, why don't you just use a flash bulb like that guy weegee in the papers? I mean geez, lady, you're alive, not some mobster corpse ripped to pieces by a tommy gun.
And I can hear some slickster with a crown graphic and big flash just like the news shooters but not enough money to rent a studio, thinking, screw it, I'll offer to shoot photos at the church, yeah, that's the ticket, tell a story, here's mom putting on the veil, here's the bride pinning the flower on dad's suit.
John - 27 Jun 2005 05:20 GMT > here's the bride Spearing dad !
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