
Signature
Thanks,
Gene Palmiter
(visit my photo gallery at http://palmiter.dotphoto.com)
freebridge design group
www.route611.com & Route 611 Magazine
> I have shot people quite a bit using on-camera flash and slaves...but now I
> have a couple of cheap monos with umbrellas and could use some help learning
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> calculate my setup? Inexpensive flash meter is on order as well as cable
> release....I am sure to have some questions when I get it.
> I have shot people quite a bit using on-camera flash and slaves...but now I
> have a couple of cheap monos with umbrellas and could use some help learning
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> calculate my setup? Inexpensive flash meter is on order as well as cable
> release....I am sure to have some questions when I get it.
You need that flash meter before you can get it right. Anything you
shoot well before that will be just experimentation and luck. Since
you're digital, you have the advantage of shooting, checking, moving and
adjusting lights, and shooting again. Put up something static, a big
doll or stuffed teddy bear, and shoot that for a while.
I'm hard pressed to imagine where you'd want to use both of those
umbrellas at the same time. Maybe a product shot.
Marc
Gene Palmiter - 07 Nov 2004 12:16 GMT
Well....see...there is something I didn't know....I use a shooting tent for
products. So if you use just the one Brella....which one gets it? Fill I
would guess. Maybe I can get a foam wig head to practice on...
> > I have shot people quite a bit using on-camera flash and slaves...but now I
> > have a couple of cheap monos with umbrellas and could use some help learning
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Marc
McLeod - 08 Nov 2004 01:25 GMT
>I'm hard pressed to imagine where you'd want to use both of those
>umbrellas at the same time. Maybe a product shot.
>
>Marc
A lot of my portraiture requires using 5-6 lights at a time.
Sometimes it takes 4 lights with umbrellas just to keept the
background evenly clean and white.
> I have shot people quite a bit using on-camera flash and slaves...but now I
> have a couple of cheap monos with umbrellas and could use some help learning
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> calculate my setup? Inexpensive flash meter is on order as well as cable
> release....I am sure to have some questions when I get it.
The "right" distance is as close as possible to get the coverage you
need and not get in the way. The purpose of umbrellas, softboxes,
etc. is to make "soft" light, that is, light that casts soft shadows.
The measure of softness is the angular dimension of the light source
when viewed from the subject position -- the bigger, the softer. So
moving it closer makes it softer. At some point, it's getting in the
way too much, and then it's too close.
I haven't taken out my flash meter since I started shooting digital
with multi-light setups. I guess if I wanted to actually measure the
lighting ratio it'd still be more convenient, but mostly I just
eyeball it or calculate it. Similarly, even more so, for guide
numbers.

Signature
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b@dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/
Gene Palmiter - 08 Nov 2004 01:54 GMT
> The "right" distance is as close as possible to get the coverage you
> need and not get in the way. The purpose of umbrellas, softboxes,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> moving it closer makes it softer. At some point, it's getting in the
> way too much, and then it's too close.
Hmmm....yes...seems so obvious now that you mention it....but its
counter-intuitive. Shadows are sharp...move the light back a bit. Nope!
Damn...should have figured that.
I am hoping that with the meter I can put some science to it. Right now I
move things around until I like it. Models might start to loose confidence
after an hour or two of that.
> I haven't taken out my flash meter since I started shooting digital
> with multi-light setups. I guess if I wanted to actually measure the
> lighting ratio it'd still be more convenient, but mostly I just
> eyeball it or calculate it. Similarly, even more so, for guide
> numbers.
David Dyer-Bennet - 09 Nov 2004 19:08 GMT
>> The "right" distance is as close as possible to get the coverage you
>> need and not get in the way. The purpose of umbrellas, softboxes,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> counter-intuitive. Shadows are sharp...move the light back a bit. Nope!
> Damn...should have figured that.
Very glad I found a way to put it that really got the principle
across!
> I am hoping that with the meter I can put some science to it. Right now I
> move things around until I like it. Models might start to loose confidence
> after an hour or two of that.
Yeah, that can be an issue. Getting an especially cooperative model
to work with you for some specifically experimental sessions might get
through some of the learning curve quickly and relatively easily. Or,
as somebody suggested, a large stuffed animal; in my experience
they're *extremely* patient!

Signature
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b@dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/
> I have shot people quite a bit using on-camera flash and slaves...but now I
> have a couple of cheap monos with umbrellas and could use some help learning
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> calculate my setup? Inexpensive flash meter is on order as well as cable
> release....I am sure to have some questions when I get it.
Through a strange and old fashioned system, the basic key and fill light
exposure relationship most thought of as a 2:1 (one stop over) is in
Professional PHotographers of America nomenclature called 3:1 lighting.
This is because in the early days of black and white processing everything
was based on the threashold or baseline exposure, you set your fill light
first, then set your key light depending on the level of drama in the
lighting you wanted.
the fill light was supposed to evenly light the entire scene, so the subject
was assumed to received the basic exposure of one unit of light on each
side, a 1:1
now you add a key light and it is set to be 2 units of light, this is one
stop over the fill exposure. so now we have 2+1:1 or 3:1
Now, trust me on this, I don't care what you have seen from any other
photog, prom shot, school pix, family portrait, some j.rkoff doing model
shots, and even the directions in the box your light kit came it, DO NOT
put one light on each side of the camera, I know it seems logical but it
gives you the worst kind of lighint imaginable. Its called cross light and
what it does is give you two sets of highlights.
simple set up.
take one of your flash heads and bounce it off the side wall. that's it.
urr well, you'll need a reflector for the other side, and if your wall ain't
white you might have to hang a sheet or paint it.
a bit more advanced, take a second head and stash it behind your background
(well I'm used to a background stand with a canvas roll hanging so there is
room behind to stash something) and bounce it off the ceiling. don't got
that, take your head and put it in can, a coffee can (geez, can you find one
anymore? nobody drinks coffee out of a big can anymore, its all about those
bags, and now the cheap coffee comes in plastic tubs) or make a snoot to
limit the light spread and aim it at the back of the subject, I'd place it
directly opposite the key light.
exposure? take a series from f/22 down and look at them on the monitor, not
your lcd, use the one where you see detail, skin tone on the checkbones.
use a bigger reflector if needed, you can get sheets of styrofoam for 12
bucks.
whats the ratio? who the f*#$& cares. If you want more just kick it in
photoshop.
but all things being equal, setting one at half power will give you one stop
difference, equal distance, equal reflector, etc. get rid of those
umbrellas, they suck.
whats the right distance? close enough to give a large light (if shooting
directly at the subject and using a modifier like a softbox or brollie) I
like to say that the light should be twice as big as the subject,
(commercial photog's rule of thumb) so that's why i like to bounce off side
walls.
why does 99% of people shooters use what has to be the ugliest lighting in
the world, two brollies in a cross fire? A. cause that's the way hacks have
always done it, it used to be called 'mug shot' lighting cause that's the
way police photogs did it. two metal scoops on either side of the camera.
later it was two umbrellas, but the lighting is rather the same, the metal
scoops were used with hot lights at about 3 feet, brollies tend to be twice
as big but set up twice as far. ergo almost the same lighting.
this and the rest of my BS can be found at the z-prophoto mailing list at
yahoogroups.com
Gene Palmiter - 10 Nov 2004 08:11 GMT
> Through a strange and old fashioned system, the basic key and fill light
> exposure relationship most thought of as a 2:1 (one stop over) is in
[quoted text clipped - 61 lines]
> this and the rest of my BS can be found at the z-prophoto mailing list at
> yahoogroups.com
All good stuff ...and yes...I did have my guns on either side. What you say
makes sense....unless I happen to like the look of mug shots! My "studio"
(The wife calls it a dining room) is smallish with off-white walls. I have a
big reflector that I can put on a side wall and I can try bouncing the other
off the back wall for lighting that and hair. Might be interesting. Just
finishing a product job that will, I think, let me get another strobe. Am
looking at White Lightning 800ws for a main gun.