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Photo Forum / Photo Technique / People Photography / March 2004

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Large Group Photography Advice

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Matthew Williams - 28 Mar 2004 10:24 GMT
Hi!

I'm looking for tips on photographing large groups (30-40 people) indoors in
a conference room / hotel type setting.

I am using either Nikon film SLR or possibly DSLR.  My main concern is
getting the lighting right as my experience is only with simgle or small
group portraits.  I have seen a decent seond hand Metz 45CL1, which is
tempting, but I am worried about the 'unflattering' nature of direct flash
(but I don't see many other alternatives).

Any thoughts?

Matthew.

(X-posted with alt.photography, sorry!)
Walt - 28 Mar 2004 16:51 GMT
We need more information to be able to provide guidance.

First, how high are the ceilings?
Second, are there risers (or stair steps) available?
Third, what will the photos be used for?
Fourth, what lenses do you have available for use?
Fifth, what other lighting sources are available (windows, etc.)?

I can tell you that, as a general rule, 35mm doesn't cut it for large groups
(film or digital).  Neither will a single flash.  But, give us some details
and we'll try to help.

Walt Hanks

> Hi!
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> (X-posted with alt.photography, sorry!)
Matthew Williams - 28 Mar 2004 17:56 GMT
Thanks for the reply.

> We need more information to be able to provide guidance.
>
> First, how high are the ceilings?

I haven't seen the room yet.

> Second, are there risers (or stair steps) available?

If not, I will bring suitable.  There should be a ready supply of chairs.

> Third, what will the photos be used for?

To give / sell to members of the group at approx 9x6" size.

> Fourth, what lenses do you have available for use?

Currently a Nikon D 28-105.

> Fifth, what other lighting sources are available (windows, etc.)?

I expect only artificial lighting.

> I can tell you that, as a general rule, 35mm doesn't cut it for large groups
> (film or digital).  Neither will a single flash.  But, give us some details
> and we'll try to help.

I can possibly buy alternative equipment.  I'm open to suggestions, as my
experience is not with large groups.

> Walt Hanks
Walt - 28 Mar 2004 19:20 GMT
If at all possible, get into the room and see what you're dealing with!
After that, I would suggest renting some lighting equipment.  Most major
camera stores have packages they rent.

You're going to need at least two studio strobes with stands and umbrellas.
You want to bounce off the umbrellas to soften the light.  You may also need
a key light behind the group to separate them from the wall.  Again, it's
hard to say without knowing anything about the room.  If you have no idea
what I'm talking about, buy a book on studio lighting while you're at the
camera store.

Avoid using chairs, except possibly for honored key people.  Chairs just
take up too much room.

I would definitely stay with film as digital will not provide the resolution
needed for people to pick themselves out of a small photo with that many
people in it and like what they see.  They will want to see their eyes first
and foremost, and the eyes may be lost in a digital print.

Finally, from a sales perspective, you will have much better luck if you can
also do smaller groups along with the large group.  For example, if this is
a family reunion, do each first generation sibling's family, etc.  Almost
every large group is composed of natural small groups.

Oh, and don't go any wider than the 28mm lens.  The distortion will be very
unflattering.  Were I doing this, and I could afford it, I would rent an
RB67 or a Hasselblad along with the lighting, but that's just me.

I hope you have the room to pull this off!

Walt Hanks

> Thanks for the reply.
>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> > Walt Hanks
Matthew Williams - 28 Mar 2004 20:25 GMT
Thanks for the useful advice.

Unfortunately the whole gathering is around 300, so the 30-40 are already
subdivided as muchb as possible.  I already have a single 'decent' studio
flash, so perhaps a second flash would be the best thing...

I will try and remember to let you guys know how it goes.

Regards,

Matthew

> If at all possible, get into the room and see what you're dealing with!
> After that, I would suggest renting some lighting equipment.  Most major
> camera stores have packages they rent.

<snip the advice>

> I hope you have the room to pull this off!
>
> Walt Hanks
otzi - 29 Mar 2004 05:03 GMT
Maybe a dumb suggestion but if you have such a large group and limited to
miniature format might you consider panning. i.e.. 2 or 3 shots with say 1/4
overlap and offer a triptych.  Or mounted on card the (3) prints trimmed and
butted. Would certainly look impressive but will require some work needing
at least some recompense.

All those heads will be insignificant on such a small print and depending on
the social standing there are folks who do not relish not being seen when
they consider they should be.  People need to see their faces. In the end
that's all that counts.

As already mentioned a larger (6x7[9] ) neg enlarged to say 1620 will afford
a better result.  Can still trim to a broad aspect print for viewing. Even
1114 would be better.

You may consider standing on a ladder.  Bit odd ball but at times can get
one out of a jam esp. with wide angle and often the unusual perspective
appeals to some folks. And you will see their faces.  Setting this up will
require some people management skills and there will always be those
resistant to direction.  Here the ladder idea seems to win as it becomes a
fun thing and with suitable humour they all will get into the spirit of
things.

Me!  I could see no other choice that 4x5.

Signature

Otzi

> Thanks for the useful advice.
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> >
> > Walt Hanks
Randall Ainsworth - 29 Mar 2004 15:47 GMT
> You may consider standing on a ladder.  Bit odd ball but at times can get
> one out of a jam esp. with wide angle and often the unusual perspective
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> fun thing and with suitable humour they all will get into the spirit of
> things.

I used to get the camera up high and then stand on a chair.  Being up
higher and shooting down a little lessens the problem of DOF and
there's less chance of somebody's head being hidden.
zeitgeist - 29 Mar 2004 07:51 GMT
> I'm looking for tips on photographing large groups (30-40 people) indoors in
> a conference room / hotel type setting.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> tempting, but I am worried about the 'unflattering' nature of direct flash
> (but I don't see many other alternatives).

I know a lot wedding photogs would go ahead and blast away with a 35mm and a
flash, but there is a big difference.   A wedding has lots and lots of
pictures of the main stars and immediate family, a large group is just a
cattle call of everybody in the bride's or grooms extended family, you just
add more and more people in there, the couple will probably buy it anyway.

A group portrait requires that each and every person get equal time, well at
least equal space and light.  That guy, (or gal) way up in last row on the
right (or left) just might end up being president or indicted or both.

So even with modern film, or high res digital, I don't think its going to
cut it.  Even back when medium format was the definition of professional,
the advice would be to get the big gun out, the 4x5.  well come to think of
it, WAY back when photographers used 4x5's and those rollies and blads were
lumped in with the other miniature cameras they would say, well a big group
like that requires more detail yadda yadda, and if you look it up, there are
or were cameras specific for this kind of shot, the banquet camera and IIRC
were 11x17 or 12x18 something like that.

but still, how many pixels?  2,000 across the horizontal, 40 people, about 4
rows of ten, with space between heads you're looking at 60-70 pixels per
face.  maybe?

maybe if you had one of those 11mp cameras.

so even today I would consider renting a medium format camera.

now remember, each person needs equal time/space etc.  I would seriously
consider using a slightly long lens, a 110mm would be ideal, its still a
portrait, a wide angle lens will get them all in, but at a cost to the folks
in the back rows, and especially the ones on the ends and you don't want the
next president or psycho-killer whom the media will be sure to pull out of
that group shot looking like their face was run over by a steamroller.

rent a power pack and a couple heads or a couple monohead flashes, put them
up high on either side of the camera, NOT out far so you get separate
highlights, but close so they just give you a wide flat light, bounced off
brollies.   You can use your flash for a fill one stop under.

This reply is echoed to the z-prophoto mailing list at yahoogroups.com
BBFoto - 29 Mar 2004 18:07 GMT
The Metz flash you mentioned will give you plenty of light, but 35mm
is stretching it a bit.  I wish you could borrow or rent a MF camera.
If you cannot, set the camera to f4 and the flash to f8 and make SURE
you can see everyone's face.  Use 400 or higher film and a 50 or 35
(1st choice) or 28mm lens.  Don't shoot to the edge of the film, leave
a little room. (Risky with 35mm but different sized prints crop
differently.  You don't want to cut off the folks on the end on a 5x7
when they are visible on an 8x10.)

Pray a lot, and as long as you don't go beyond 8x10 they should be on
the edge of acceptability.  If you have to work with what you've got
then that's all you can do.  What you are hoping for is that MOST of
them will be pleased.  And you're not going to please ALL of them
whatever you do.  With this same setup I have taken shots that
produced beautiful 8x10's and shots that made lousy 8x10's.  If you do
all you can do to prepare, the rest depends on the room.  

Also, I've never had any luck trying to take more than one shot and
piecing them together.  It's a lot of work.  If you've done it before,
fine.  But a big job like this is not the time to experiment.

Good luck!

BBFoto

>Hi!
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>(X-posted with alt.photography, sorry!)
Matthew Williams - 29 Mar 2004 19:05 GMT
Thanks all.  It's given me plenty to mull over.

Regards,

Matthew.
Michael Benveniste - 29 Mar 2004 20:51 GMT
> Hi!
>
> I'm looking for tips on photographing large groups (30-40 people) indoors in
> a conference room / hotel type setting.

Here are a few more things to think about.

Without some sort of stairs or risers, about all you can hope for is
three rows of people.  Conservatively, that means a 30 person group
is going to make for a 20 foot wide shot, and probably more.  Since
your flash only covers a 35mm angle at full power, you'll end up at
least 20 feet away from the front row, shooting at f/5.6 or so with
160 speed film.

The DSLR's crop factor puts you at 32 feet, at which point you
may need to drop to f/4.

_Somebody_ is going to blink or sneeze on every single shot, yet
trying to hold that size group together for more than half a dozen
tries is not going to be easy.

Unlike other posters, I wouldn't worry about unflattering results due
to the use of a wide angle.  That's not directly a function of focal
length, but of distance.

Having people stand on chairs, at least in the U.S., is an invitation
to a lawsuit.

The good news is that you don't have to worry about too little depth
of field.  The bad news is that the reason you don't have to worry is
that you've only got about 6 or 7 square millimeters of film per face,
and even less sensor space on a DSLR.

You need to get the flash above the second row of "heads," otherwise
it will cast shadows onto the faces of the people in back.  Even at
best, the lighting is going to be fairly harsh.  You probably don't
have enough flash to bounce.

In short, my advice is to hire a pro with the equipment and experience
to take this sort of large group shot.

Signature

Michael Benveniste -- mhb-offer@clearether.com
Spam and UCE professionally evaluated for $419.  Use this email
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