Photo Forum / Photo Technique / Nature Photography / May 2004
Starter lens :400mm good enough?
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Ivan - 26 May 2004 23:45 GMT I intend jumping into wildlife/nature photography. Unfortunately I am on a tight budget, but I also want quality (often don't go hand in hand). I am considering purchasing the EF 400 f5,6L USM. A friend adviced I take the 100-400 f4.5-5.6L IS USM but its grade on the 'photodo' has me wondering. The zoom has its advantages:zoom,IS, AF will work with convertors ..., and disadvantages: zoom(poorer image quality??). The fixed lens on the other hand has superior image quality, AF doesn't work with convertors ( I guess it shouldn't be too much of a problem or ??) and I would then also have to fill/replace my current lenses with better ones . Please advice! Thanks in advance, Ivan.
PWW - 27 May 2004 00:18 GMT It is as important, if not more so, the speed of the lens. Get the fastest lens you can. If you are short on cash, look into getting used lenses instead. A used Long fast lens will be much better that a New Long slow lens. Major Manufacturers (Nikon, Canon) used lenses are almost as good as new ones.
 Signature PWW (Paul Wayne Wilson) Over 1,000 Photographs Online at, http://PhotoStockFile.com
> On 5/26/04 6:45 PM, in article c936lp$j72$1@bagan.srce.hr, > "Ivan" <ikwabena@gmx.net> wrote:
> I intend jumping into wildlife/nature photography. Unfortunately I am on > a tight budget, but I also want quality (often don't go hand in hand). [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Thanks in advance, > Ivan. Bill Hilton - 27 May 2004 00:45 GMT >From: "Ivan" ikwabena@gmx.net
>I intend jumping into wildlife/nature photography. Unfortunately I am on >a tight budget, but I also want quality (often don't go hand in hand). LOL ... yep.
>I am considering purchasing the EF 400 f5,6L USM. A friend adviced I >take the 100-400 f4.5-5.6L IS USM but its grade on the 'photodo' has me >wondering. > The zoom has its advantages:zoom,IS, AF will work with convertors ..., >and disadvantages: zoom(poorer image quality??). My wife has the 400 f/5.6 L and I have the 100-400 IS.
If getting just one I'd get the 400 f/5.6 L, after shooting both of these a fair amount. And start saving up for one of the super tele's like the 500 f/4 L IS (we have two of these babies) or the 600 f/4 L IS, which are what you really need for best results with wildlife.
The 400 f/5.6 just gets you in the door, I feel.
>The fixed lens on the other hand has superior image quality, AF doesn't >work with convertors ( I guess it shouldn't be too much of a problem or ??) Actually the AF-with-converters situation is the same with either lens, AF won't work with either one on the consumer grade camera bodies with the Canon 1.4x since you need f/5.6 or wider to AF and both of these are 5.6 at 400 mm. If you're shooting film consider the EOS-3, which is the least expensive body that will AF at f/8 min aperture, meaning that with either of these lenses you can maintain AF (center sensor only) at 560 mm f/8 with the 1.4 x t/c. You can probably pick up a used EOS-3 cheap, we're selling two of them ourselves as we switch to digital and I was surprised how low the prices are.
>Please advice! I got the 100-400 IS mainly for shooting hand-held in places like a shuttle bus in Denali or from a boat or plane and it's fine for that since the IS filters out some of the camera shake. And of course the zoom is very convenient. But the optics aren't as good as the straight 400 and if you're just getting one lens and want quality I'd prefer the 400. On the other hand I know several pros who use the 100-400 and get good results with it so it's not exactly a dog.
If you are shooting digital you'll find that dust on the sensor is a major problem (at least for me). The push-pull design of the 100-400 acts like a vacuum pump as you change focal lengths and seems to cause a lot more problems with dust, another reason to avoid it.
Here are some articles discussing the 400 vs 100-400 issue.
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/lenses/forgotten-400.shtml http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/DXO-Tests/dxo-canon-400mm.shtml
If only the 400 f/5.6 L had IS ... :)
Bill
Jim Davis - 27 May 2004 02:49 GMT >If you are shooting digital you'll find that dust on the sensor is a major >problem (at least for me). The push-pull design of the 100-400 acts like a >vacuum pump as you change focal lengths and seems to cause a lot more problems >with dust, another reason to avoid it. I use a 10d and the 100-400L IS. I have no problems with dust. I'm fairly careful changing lenses but it's nothing that any good photographer doesn't do with any camera and lens. It's just not an issue for me.
 Signature Jim Davis Nature Photography http://jimdavis.oberro.com Replies in plain text only please!
Bill Hilton - 27 May 2004 03:06 GMT >From: Jim Davis spammenot@someisp.jp
>I use a 10d and the 100-400L IS. I have no problems with dust. You won't see sensor dust problems at f/8 or wider but stop down to f/22 or f/32 and shoot a clear sky or a white wall. You'll probably change your tune, or at least I did :)
Bill
Jim Davis - 28 May 2004 07:55 GMT >>I use a 10d and the 100-400L IS. I have no problems with dust. > >You won't see sensor dust problems at f/8 or wider but stop down to f/22 or >f/32 and shoot a clear sky or a white wall. You'll probably change your tune, >or at least I did :) Maybe, but why bother. I never shoot white walls, and I never shoot wider than F8.
Do you?
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 28 May 2004 14:14 GMT >>>I use a 10d and the 100-400L IS. I have no problems with dust. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Maybe, but why bother. I never shoot white walls, and I never shoot > wider than F8. If you do any action photography, you'll find you need faster than f/8 to freeze the action. Also, if you want to separate your subject from the background, you want shallow depth of field, thus again wide open. Wildlife at f/8 and you'll often find a lot of clutter in the background.
Some examples (bird action photos): http://clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.bird/index.html
specifically see (examples of smooth backgrounds due to fast lenses):
http://clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.bird/web/c01.14.2003.img_5113.egret-fli ght.f-600.html
http://clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.bird/web/egret.c03.01.2003.img_8441.b-6 00.html
And yes, I do image white walls! I use a uniform white wall to measure the light fall-off, then correct images that need it.
Roger http://clarkvision.com
Jim Davis - 29 May 2004 00:00 GMT >> Maybe, but why bother. I never shoot white walls, and I never shoot >> wider than F8. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >field, thus again wide open. Wildlife at f/8 and you'll >often find a lot of clutter in the background. Sorry , I meant I never shoot smaller aperture than f8, big difference. I like to keep my ISO low and my shutter speed high! But as you know, even with a shutter speed of 1/500th or faster, bird heads can be fuzzy because of movement. Especially when you want to capture them just grabbing a fish!
So I'm often shooting a half or full stop from wide open. This does give a very narrow depth of field at 400mm or more. And gives wonderfully out of focus backgrounds and foregrounds.
 Signature Jim Davis Nature Photography http://jimdavis.oberro.com Replies in plain text only please!
PWW - 28 May 2004 15:57 GMT You Becha! I love it to show speed and motion.
http://PhotoStockFile.com/Slow
Five quick examples. f14, f22 and f32. And if you look close a few have the dust bunnies problems. These are from my raw files (not my fixed files) to show the dust. I did and do fix them all when sending them out or for "Real": client viewing.
The f32 was a real job to fix up. I think at that f stop, even dust on the front and rear of the lens aggravates the dust problems.
 Signature PWW (Paul Wayne Wilson) Over 1,000 Photographs Online at, http://PhotoStockFile.com
> On 5/28/04 2:55 AM, in article > mgodb0hl2orsen8tkcbdqsc89s5o9ddm2o@nwall.odn.ne.jp, > "Jim Davis" <spammenot@someisp.jp> wrote:
>>> I use a 10d and the 100-400L IS. I have no problems with dust. >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Do you? Jim Davis - 29 May 2004 00:03 GMT >You Becha! I love it to show speed and motion. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >to show the dust. I did and do fix them all when sending them out or for >"Real": client viewing. I don't need to go that slow to show such motion. I can get that by changing my ISO to 100 and shooting at 1/60 at f5.6- f8.
I also have enjoyed the 'show motion' type of shooting. But I don't need to close down my aperture so much. See here, about half way down: http://jimdavis.oberro.com/galleries/new_stuff5/new_stuff5.html
 Signature Jim Davis Nature Photography http://jimdavis.oberro.com Replies in plain text only please!
PWW - 29 May 2004 02:17 GMT Different type of motion effect. Different end result. Can't you see the difference between your image and http://photostockfile.com/Slow/source/scanned008.htm
Hopefully people can tell I meant to cause the motion blur and did not have the blur just because I could do otherwise. That is why when I do slow motion blur I like to do it big time.
Having the background motion blurred is a completely different effect then just having the wings tips blurred from a slow shooting speed.
I guess if you want to limit your available techniques, that¹s fine, but I really like being able to adjust the amount of motion blur I can put into my images. So I use any and all settings to get the best images.
See the differences between f32 http://photostockfile.com/Slow/source/030522-222930-pww.htm And f14 http://photostockfile.com/Slow/source/040516-085812-pww.htm
Each has a different amount of motion blur. Try to duplicate that f32 image just using f5.6 or f8. That is without using a neutral density filter.
 Signature PWW (Paul Wayne Wilson) Over 1,000 Photographs Online at, http://PhotoStockFile.com
> On 5/28/04 7:03 PM, in article e5hfb05rfmfu1hhvsvjpa4e4mfe47o9q45@nwall.odn.ne.jp,
> "Jim Davis" <spammenot@someisp.jp> wrote:
>> You Becha! I love it to show speed and motion. >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > need to close down my aperture so much. See here, about half way down: > http://jimdavis.oberro.com/galleries/new_stuff5/new_stuff5.html Bill Hilton - 28 May 2004 16:40 GMT >> bhilton665@aol.comedy (Bill Hilton)
>> You won't see sensor dust problems at f/8 or wider but stop down to >> f/22 or f/32 and shoot a clear sky or a white wall. You'll probably >> change your tune
>From: Jim Davis spammenot@someisp.jp > >Maybe, but why bother. I never shoot white walls, and I never shoot >wider than F8. > >Do you? Of course I shoot stopped down beyond f/8 (you said "wider" but wider is probably not what you meant). I'm surprised an experienced photographer would even ask such a question. With landscape shots or macro shots or with deliberately long exposures for panning the smaller apertures are often useful. Wildlife is of course a different matter, but for many shots you need more depth of field.
The white wall is a boundary test condition meant to show you ALL the problems with one frame, obviously not an actual shooting situation, though you'll get the same results by shooting a clear sky.
My wife used her 10D for several months on wildlife and never noticed dust ... then she did some macro work with yellow flowers at f/22 and the dust bunnies were very obvious.
I just started using a 1Ds in April and had heard the huge sensor was a dust magnet so I was careful when I changed lenses ... shots looked fine until I stopped down to f/32 to get a 4 sec exposure for this panning shot and on even a small print you can see the dust ... check it at this link, the two bottom images are 100% crops roughly corresponding to the red boxes in the top image. Took about 15 minutes to clone out all the spots on this one. http://members.aol.com/bhilton665/sensor_dust.htm This was with a nearly-new camera and I'd only changed lenses about 4 times so it probably shipped like this.
Even at wider apertures, where the dust isn't an obvious spot on the image, you'll still have a loss of contrast and detail if the bunnies are big enough.
For those interested in cleaning their sensor these web sites are good sources of info:
http://www.pbase.com/copperhill/ccd_cleaning http://www.photo.net/equipment/digital/sensorcleaning/
Bill
Jim Davis - 27 May 2004 02:46 GMT > I intend jumping into wildlife/nature photography. Unfortunately I am on >a tight budget, but I also want quality (often don't go hand in hand). [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >ones . > Please advice! The reasons why I continue to use my 100-400L IS are that it's extremely compact and it's ability to zoom. I can't complain about it's sharpness because for my style, tripods are not used. IS of course is something I would not be without on a long lens, and this lens has excellent IS. I like to move around, not stand beside a huge tripod hoping something will happen. I like to hike and find stuff you can't get to with a big lens, big pod, and a vehicle.
Zooming is something you don't appreciate unless you have a zoom. Many fine landscapes are shot at between 100-400mm. Unless you pack an extra lens, your 400 prime or longer is not able to do such shooting. You likely won't even be looking for such opportunities. And I find that this lens at 100mm makes a really nice portrait lens.
Also, since I use the 10d, I get a real boost in focal length. I also use a 1.4 teleconverter many times and shoot at close to 1000mm. (equivalent)
I think this lens can be an excellent 'starter' lens, as well as a keeper if your style is anything like mine. You really have to analyse your style of shooting to decide on a lens. It's a big investment and you don't want to be trading it on a different lens later.
Almost all the shots on my webpage are with this lens.
 Signature Jim Davis Nature Photography http://jimdavis.oberro.com Replies in plain text only please!
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 27 May 2004 03:49 GMT > I intend jumping into wildlife/nature photography. Unfortunately I am on > a tight budget, but I also want quality (often don't go hand in hand). [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > and I would then also have to fill/replace my current lenses with better > ones . I have the 100-400, as well as a variety of other lenses, including a 500 f/4 IS L. I love the 100-400 for its zoom ability. But it just is not sharp enough. It will make fine 8x10s, but not larger. I rarely use the 100-400 now and have replaced it with the 300 f/4 IS L. With it you can add a 1.4x TC for 420mmm f/5.6 and it is still very sharp. The f/4 is very nice for fast moving action hand held, it is lighter than the 100-400 and smaller in diameter. Even if you get it as a starter lens, it will remain a good pro level lens as long as you own it. ....My opinion.
Roger Clark photos at: http://www.clarkvision.com
(if you want a 100-400 used, I might seel mine)
Jim Davis - 28 May 2004 08:25 GMT >I have the 100-400, as well as a variety of other lenses, >including a 500 f/4 IS L. I love the 100-400 for its zoom [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >will remain a good pro level lens as long as you own it. >....My opinion. Yep, that it is. Here's mine. I haven't used a 300/4 IS, but I heard it was less sharp than it's brother the 300/2.8 IS.
I'm very pleased with the sharpness of my 100-400L IS. I use a 10d and zooming in to 100% on a Heron's eye, it appears damned sharp. Going over 8 by 10 is no problem at all. But then again, I don't view them from the same distance as a 4 by 6. Large prints are to be put on a wall and viewed from some distance, not examined with a loupe. And let's be honest, the emotional feelings from an image are still the most important thing to me. Technical aspects fall to the wayside to a good image. If it looks sharp, it's sharp enough. I tire quickly of these nitpicking discussions about sharpness. For some, the 100-400 isn't sharp enough, but for me, it is.
The 300/4 IS is a good option granted, but it requires adding or removing a teleconverter, and there are different tradeoffs. My 1.4x lives on my 100-400L. If I had the 300, a 1.4x would also live on it, but it wouldn't be as long. Both would lose sharpness, but hey birds don't let you get that close :-)
No, a longer lens like a 500 or 600 would not suit me. I can't shoot my hand holding walk around style with a 500 or 600 lens. I like compactness and carry ability. I don't like standing by a large pod waiting. If you shoot mostly at places where you can't walk around but everyone sets up a pod and long lens, then perhaps a 600 would be best. I find my nature in natural surroundings. And often far from where the car is.
It's well known that you never really have too long a reach with a bird lens. I am often still cropping images. But then my aim is to produce art, not technical masterpieces. Art that is viewed from proper viewing distance I might add.
I'd love to have a longer zoom that was the same size as the 100-400, but that ain't going to happen, at least until Canon gets busy with it's DO technology. I'll be in line with cash in hand for the new 200-600L IS DO, if it fits in my Lowepro TLZ Pro AW.
If you add the 1.4x to the 300, you end up with less sharpness than the 100-400 with almost the same FL. If you add a 2x you get less sharpness than the 100-400 with 1.4x and about the same FL. I will agree that you get a slightly sharper image at 300mm but I still maintain the difference on a large print viewed at normal distance does not exist. The 100-400L IS is very sharp at 300. It's just that hardly anyone has ever used it at 300 :-)
Oh I should mention that I can AF with the 100-400 and 1.4x with the help from the 'bit of tape on a contact' trick. Really, it works very well for me.
Just my opinion of course.
 Signature Jim Davis Nature Photography http://jimdavis.oberro.com Replies in plain text only please!
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 28 May 2004 14:04 GMT > On Wed, 26 May 2004 20:49:17 -0600, "Roger N. Clark (change username
> Yep, that it is. Here's mine. I haven't used a 300/4 IS, but I heard > it was less sharp than it's brother the 300/2.8 IS. > > I'm very pleased with the sharpness of my 100-400L IS. Here are test images that show how the image degrades with zoom on the 100-400: http://clarkvision.com/imagedetail/relative-lens-sharpness
From 200 to 400 mm one would expect an increase in detail of a factor of 2, but one sees only 1.4 but also one sees increased flair.
While the 300 f/2.8 L may be extremely sharp, the 300 f/4 is almost equal. The 300 mm f/4 resolves more detail on a subject than the 100-400 at 400mm, even at the same distance, and a stop faster. Add a 1.4x TC on the 300 and it remains just as sharp, so you have 420 mm with with 50% more detail than the 100-400 delivers. The 100-400 with a TC just makes the flair bigger!
Not my opinion....just the facts.
I may get the 300mm f/4 tests added to the web page soon.
Roger
I use a 10d and
> zooming in to 100% on a Heron's eye, it appears damned sharp. Going > over 8 by 10 is no problem at all. But then again, I don't view them [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > Just my opinion of course. Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 28 May 2004 15:19 GMT > I'm very pleased with the sharpness of my 100-400L IS. Jim, Please print the test chart on the page below and test your 100-400 lens. I'm very curious about lens to lens variations. Perhaps you have a rare 100-400 that beats the norm in sharpness. The tests on the page below are consistent with other data (e.g. MTF charts on Canon's web site).
> Here are test images that show how the image degrades with > zoom on the 100-400: > http://clarkvision.com/imagedetail/relative-lens-sharpness Jim Davis - 29 May 2004 00:06 GMT >> I'm very pleased with the sharpness of my 100-400L IS. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >below are consistent with other data (e.g. MTF charts on >Canon's web site). Well, printing it myself could also introduce differences, but I'll have a look. Like I said, I'm very pleased with the sharpness, the handling, and the size of the lens.
Jim Davis - 29 May 2004 00:19 GMT >Please print the test chart on the page below and test your >100-400 lens. I'm very curious about lens to lens >variations. Perhaps you have a rare 100-400 that >beats the norm in sharpness. The tests on the page >below are consistent with other data (e.g. MTF charts on >Canon's web site). I'm just curious about some printing properties. What kind of paper did you print on, and what res? I printed one on plain paper at 720 dpi and it looks a bit faded, does this matter? I have an Epson 890 Photo.
 Signature Jim Davis Nature Photography http://jimdavis.oberro.com Replies in plain text only please!
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 29 May 2004 04:52 GMT >>Please print the test chart on the page below and test your >>100-400 lens. I'm very curious about lens to lens [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > dpi and it looks a bit faded, does this matter? I have an Epson 890 > Photo. I printed with highest quality I can do on glossy photo paper. My printer is an HP1220C so I printed at something like 1200 (or maybe it was 1200x2400 dpi). Your Epson should do just fine if you use glossy photo paper.
Roger
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