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Photo Forum / Photo Technique / Nature Photography / May 2004

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Starter lens :400mm good enough?

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Ivan - 26 May 2004 23:45 GMT
   I intend jumping into wildlife/nature photography. Unfortunately I am on
a tight budget, but I also want quality (often don't go hand in hand).
   I am considering purchasing the EF 400 f5,6L USM. A friend adviced I
take the 100-400 f4.5-5.6L IS USM but its grade on the 'photodo' has me
wondering.
   The zoom has its advantages:zoom,IS, AF will work with convertors ...,
and disadvantages: zoom(poorer image quality??).
   The fixed lens on the other hand has superior image quality, AF doesn't
work with convertors ( I guess it shouldn't be too much of a problem or ??)
and I would then also have to fill/replace my current lenses with better
ones  .
   Please advice!
                       Thanks in advance,
                                                       Ivan.
PWW - 27 May 2004 00:18 GMT
It is as important, if not more so, the speed of the lens. Get the fastest
lens you can. If you are short on cash, look into getting used lenses
instead. A used Long fast lens will be much better that a New Long slow
lens. Major Manufacturers (Nikon, Canon) used lenses are almost as good as
new ones.
Signature

PWW (Paul Wayne Wilson)
Over 1,000 Photographs Online at,
http://PhotoStockFile.com

>  On 5/26/04 6:45 PM, in article c936lp$j72$1@bagan.srce.hr,
>  "Ivan" <ikwabena@gmx.net> wrote:

>   I intend jumping into wildlife/nature photography. Unfortunately I am on
> a tight budget, but I also want quality (often don't go hand in hand).
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>                       Thanks in advance,
>                                                       Ivan.
Bill Hilton - 27 May 2004 00:45 GMT
>From: "Ivan" ikwabena@gmx.net

>I intend jumping into wildlife/nature photography. Unfortunately I am on
>a tight budget, but I also want quality (often don't go hand in hand).

LOL ... yep.

>I am considering purchasing the EF 400 f5,6L USM. A friend adviced I
>take the 100-400 f4.5-5.6L IS USM but its grade on the 'photodo' has me
>wondering.
>  The zoom has its advantages:zoom,IS, AF will work with convertors ...,
>and disadvantages: zoom(poorer image quality??).

My wife has the 400 f/5.6 L and I have the 100-400 IS.

If getting just one I'd get the 400 f/5.6 L, after shooting both of these a
fair amount.  And start saving up for one of the super tele's like the 500 f/4
L IS (we have two of these babies) or the 600 f/4 L IS, which are what you
really need for best results with wildlife.

The 400 f/5.6 just gets you in the door, I feel.

>The fixed lens on the other hand has superior image quality, AF doesn't
>work with convertors ( I guess it shouldn't be too much of a problem or ??)

Actually the AF-with-converters situation is the same with either lens, AF
won't work with either one on the consumer grade camera bodies with the Canon
1.4x since you need f/5.6 or wider to AF and both of these are 5.6 at 400 mm.  
If you're shooting film consider the EOS-3, which is the least expensive body
that will AF at f/8 min aperture, meaning that with either of these lenses you
can maintain AF (center sensor only) at 560 mm f/8 with the 1.4 x t/c.  You can
probably pick up a used EOS-3 cheap, we're selling two of them ourselves as we
switch to digital and I was surprised how low the prices are.

>Please advice!

I got the 100-400 IS mainly for shooting hand-held in places like a shuttle bus
in Denali or from a boat or plane and it's fine for that since the IS filters
out some of the camera shake.  And of course the zoom is very convenient.  But
the optics aren't as good as the straight 400 and if you're just getting one
lens and want quality I'd prefer the 400.  On the other hand I know several
pros who use the 100-400 and get good results with it so it's not exactly a
dog.

If you are shooting digital you'll find that dust on the sensor is a major
problem (at least for me).  The push-pull design of the 100-400 acts like a
vacuum pump as you change focal lengths and seems to cause a lot more problems
with dust, another reason to avoid it.

Here are some articles discussing the 400 vs 100-400 issue.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/lenses/forgotten-400.shtml
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/DXO-Tests/dxo-canon-400mm.shtml

If only the 400 f/5.6 L had IS ... :)

Bill
Jim Davis - 27 May 2004 02:49 GMT
>If you are shooting digital you'll find that dust on the sensor is a major
>problem (at least for me).  The push-pull design of the 100-400 acts like a
>vacuum pump as you change focal lengths and seems to cause a lot more problems
>with dust, another reason to avoid it.

I use a 10d and the 100-400L IS. I have no problems with dust. I'm
fairly careful changing lenses but it's nothing that any good
photographer doesn't do with any camera and lens. It's just not an
issue for me.

Signature

Jim Davis
Nature Photography
http://jimdavis.oberro.com
Replies in plain text only please!

Bill Hilton - 27 May 2004 03:06 GMT
>From: Jim Davis spammenot@someisp.jp

>I use a 10d and the 100-400L IS. I have no problems with dust.

You won't see sensor dust problems at f/8 or wider but stop down to f/22 or
f/32 and shoot a clear sky or a white wall.  You'll probably change your tune,
or at least I did :)

Bill
Jim Davis - 28 May 2004 07:55 GMT
>>I use a 10d and the 100-400L IS. I have no problems with dust.
>
>You won't see sensor dust problems at f/8 or wider but stop down to f/22 or
>f/32 and shoot a clear sky or a white wall.  You'll probably change your tune,
>or at least I did :)

Maybe, but why bother. I never shoot white walls, and I never shoot
wider than F8.

Do you?
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 28 May 2004 14:14 GMT
>>>I use a 10d and the 100-400L IS. I have no problems with dust.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Maybe, but why bother. I never shoot white walls, and I never shoot
> wider than F8.

If you do any action photography, you'll find you need faster
than f/8 to freeze the action.  Also, if you want to separate
your subject from the background, you want shallow depth of
field, thus again wide open.  Wildlife at f/8 and you'll
often find a lot of clutter in the background.

Some examples (bird action photos):
http://clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.bird/index.html

specifically see (examples of smooth backgrounds due to fast lenses):

http://clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.bird/web/c01.14.2003.img_5113.egret-fli
ght.f-600.html


http://clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.bird/web/egret.c03.01.2003.img_8441.b-6
00.html


And yes, I do image white walls!  I use a uniform white
wall to measure the light fall-off, then correct images
that need it.

Roger
http://clarkvision.com
Jim Davis - 29 May 2004 00:00 GMT
>> Maybe, but why bother. I never shoot white walls, and I never shoot
>> wider than F8.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>field, thus again wide open.  Wildlife at f/8 and you'll
>often find a lot of clutter in the background.

Sorry , I meant I never shoot smaller aperture than f8, big
difference. I like to keep my ISO low and my shutter speed high! But
as you know, even with a shutter speed of 1/500th or faster, bird
heads can be fuzzy because of movement. Especially when you want to
capture them just grabbing a fish!

So I'm often shooting a half or full stop from wide open. This does
give a very narrow depth of field at 400mm or more. And gives
wonderfully out of focus backgrounds and foregrounds.

Signature

Jim Davis
Nature Photography
http://jimdavis.oberro.com
Replies in plain text only please!

PWW - 28 May 2004 15:57 GMT
You Becha! I love it to show speed and motion.

http://PhotoStockFile.com/Slow

Five quick examples.  f14, f22 and f32.  And if you look close a few have
the dust bunnies problems. These are from my raw files (not my fixed files)
to show the dust. I did and do fix them all when sending them out or for
"Real": client viewing.

The f32 was a real job to fix up. I think at that f stop, even dust on the
front and rear of the lens aggravates the dust problems.
Signature

PWW (Paul Wayne Wilson)
Over 1,000 Photographs Online at,
http://PhotoStockFile.com

> On 5/28/04 2:55 AM, in article
> mgodb0hl2orsen8tkcbdqsc89s5o9ddm2o@nwall.odn.ne.jp,
> "Jim Davis" <spammenot@someisp.jp> wrote:

>>> I use a 10d and the 100-400L IS. I have no problems with dust.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Do you?
Jim Davis - 29 May 2004 00:03 GMT
>You Becha! I love it to show speed and motion.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>to show the dust. I did and do fix them all when sending them out or for
>"Real": client viewing.

I don't need to go that slow to show such motion. I can get that by
changing my ISO to 100 and shooting at 1/60 at f5.6- f8.

I also have enjoyed the 'show motion' type of shooting. But I don't
need to close down my aperture so much. See here, about half way down:
http://jimdavis.oberro.com/galleries/new_stuff5/new_stuff5.html

Signature

Jim Davis
Nature Photography
http://jimdavis.oberro.com
Replies in plain text only please!

PWW - 29 May 2004 02:17 GMT
Different type of motion effect. Different end result. Can't you see the
difference between your image and
http://photostockfile.com/Slow/source/scanned008.htm

Hopefully people can tell I meant to cause the motion blur and did not have
the blur just because I could do otherwise. That is why when I do slow
motion blur I like to do it big time.

Having the background motion blurred is a completely different effect then
just having the wings tips blurred from a slow shooting speed.

I guess if you want to limit your available techniques, that¹s fine, but I
really like being able to adjust the amount of motion blur I can put into my
images. So I use any and all settings to get the best images.

See the differences between f32
http://photostockfile.com/Slow/source/030522-222930-pww.htm
And f14
http://photostockfile.com/Slow/source/040516-085812-pww.htm

Each has a different amount of motion blur. Try to duplicate that f32 image
just using f5.6 or f8. That is without using a neutral density filter.
Signature

PWW (Paul Wayne Wilson)
Over 1,000 Photographs Online at,
http://PhotoStockFile.com

> On 5/28/04 7:03 PM, in article
e5hfb05rfmfu1hhvsvjpa4e4mfe47o9q45@nwall.odn.ne.jp,
> "Jim Davis" <spammenot@someisp.jp> wrote:

>> You Becha! I love it to show speed and motion.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> need to close down my aperture so much. See here, about half way down:
> http://jimdavis.oberro.com/galleries/new_stuff5/new_stuff5.html
Bill Hilton - 28 May 2004 16:40 GMT
>> bhilton665@aol.comedy (Bill Hilton)

>> You won't see sensor dust problems at f/8 or wider but stop down to
>> f/22 or f/32 and shoot a clear sky or a white wall.  You'll probably
>> change your tune

>From: Jim Davis spammenot@someisp.jp
>
>Maybe, but why bother. I never shoot white walls, and I never shoot
>wider than F8.
>
>Do you?

Of course I shoot stopped down beyond f/8 (you said "wider" but wider is
probably not what you meant).  I'm surprised an experienced photographer would
even ask such a question.  With landscape shots or macro shots or with
deliberately long exposures for panning the smaller apertures are often useful.
Wildlife is of course a different matter, but for many shots you need more
depth of field.

The white wall is a boundary test condition meant to show you ALL the problems
with one frame, obviously not an actual shooting situation, though you'll get
the same results by shooting a clear sky.

My wife used her 10D for several months on wildlife and never noticed dust ...
then she did some macro work with yellow flowers at f/22 and the dust bunnies
were very obvious.

I just started using a 1Ds in April and had heard the huge sensor was a dust
magnet so I was careful when I changed lenses ... shots looked fine until I
stopped down to f/32 to get a 4 sec exposure for this panning shot and on even
a small print you can see the dust ... check it at this link, the two bottom
images are 100% crops roughly corresponding to the red boxes in the top image.
Took about 15 minutes to clone out all the spots on this one.
http://members.aol.com/bhilton665/sensor_dust.htm  This was with a nearly-new
camera and I'd only changed lenses about 4 times so it probably shipped like
this.

Even at wider apertures, where the dust isn't an obvious spot on the image,
you'll still have a loss of contrast and detail if the bunnies are big enough.

For those interested in cleaning their sensor these web sites are good sources
of info:

http://www.pbase.com/copperhill/ccd_cleaning
http://www.photo.net/equipment/digital/sensorcleaning/

Bill
Jim Davis - 27 May 2004 02:46 GMT
>    I intend jumping into wildlife/nature photography. Unfortunately I am on
>a tight budget, but I also want quality (often don't go hand in hand).
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>ones  .
>    Please advice!

The reasons why I continue to use my 100-400L IS are that it's
extremely compact and it's ability to zoom. I can't complain about
it's sharpness because for my style, tripods are not used. IS of
course is something I would not be without on a long lens, and this
lens has excellent IS. I like to move around, not stand beside a huge
tripod hoping something will happen. I like to hike and find stuff you
can't get to with a big lens, big pod, and a vehicle.

Zooming is something you don't appreciate unless you have a zoom. Many
fine landscapes are shot at between 100-400mm. Unless you pack an
extra lens, your 400 prime or longer is not able to do such shooting.
You likely won't even be looking for such opportunities. And I find
that this lens at 100mm makes a really nice portrait lens.

Also, since I use the 10d, I get a real boost in focal length. I also
use a 1.4 teleconverter many times and shoot at close to 1000mm.
(equivalent)

I think this lens can be an excellent 'starter' lens, as well as a
keeper if your style is anything like mine. You really have to analyse
your style of shooting to decide on a lens. It's a big investment and
you don't want to be trading it on a different lens later.

Almost all the shots on my webpage are with this lens.
Signature

Jim Davis
Nature Photography
http://jimdavis.oberro.com
Replies in plain text only please!

Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 27 May 2004 03:49 GMT
>     I intend jumping into wildlife/nature photography. Unfortunately I am on
> a tight budget, but I also want quality (often don't go hand in hand).
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> and I would then also have to fill/replace my current lenses with better
> ones  .

I have the 100-400, as well as a variety of other lenses,
including a 500 f/4 IS L.  I love the 100-400 for its zoom
ability.  But it just is not sharp enough.  It will make
fine 8x10s, but not larger.  I rarely use the 100-400
now and have replaced it with the 300 f/4 IS L.
With it you can add a 1.4x TC for 420mmm f/5.6 and it is
still very sharp.  The f/4 is very nice for fast moving
action hand held, it is lighter than the 100-400 and smaller
in diameter.  Even if you get it as a starter lens, it
will remain a good pro level lens as long as you own it.
....My opinion.

Roger Clark
photos at: http://www.clarkvision.com

(if you want a 100-400 used, I might seel mine)
Jim Davis - 28 May 2004 08:25 GMT
>I have the 100-400, as well as a variety of other lenses,
>including a 500 f/4 IS L.  I love the 100-400 for its zoom
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>will remain a good pro level lens as long as you own it.
>....My opinion.

Yep, that it is. Here's mine. I haven't used a 300/4 IS, but I heard
it was less sharp than it's brother the 300/2.8 IS.

I'm very pleased with the sharpness of my 100-400L IS. I use a 10d and
zooming in to 100% on a Heron's eye, it appears damned sharp. Going
over 8 by 10 is no problem at all. But then again, I don't view them
from the same distance as a 4 by 6. Large prints are to be put on a
wall and viewed from some distance, not examined with a loupe. And
let's be honest, the emotional feelings from an image are still the
most important thing to me. Technical aspects fall to the wayside to a
good image. If it looks sharp, it's sharp enough. I tire quickly of
these nitpicking discussions about sharpness. For some, the 100-400
isn't sharp enough, but for me, it is.

The 300/4 IS is a good option granted, but it requires adding or
removing a teleconverter, and there are different tradeoffs. My 1.4x
lives on my 100-400L. If I had the 300, a 1.4x would also live on it,
but it wouldn't be as long. Both would lose sharpness, but hey birds
don't let you get that close :-)

No, a longer lens like a 500 or 600 would not suit me. I can't shoot
my hand holding walk around style with a 500 or 600 lens. I like
compactness and carry ability. I don't like standing by a large pod
waiting. If you shoot mostly at places where you can't walk around but
everyone sets up a pod and long lens, then perhaps a 600 would be
best. I find my nature in natural surroundings. And often far from
where the car is.

It's well known that you never really have too long a reach with a
bird lens. I am often still cropping images. But then my aim is to
produce art, not technical masterpieces. Art that is viewed from
proper viewing distance I might add.

I'd love to have a longer zoom that was the same size as the 100-400,
but that ain't going to happen, at least until Canon gets busy with
it's DO technology. I'll be in line with cash in hand for the new
200-600L IS DO, if it fits in my Lowepro TLZ Pro AW.

If you add the 1.4x to the 300, you end up with less sharpness  than
the 100-400 with almost the same FL. If you add a 2x you get less
sharpness than the 100-400 with 1.4x and about the same FL. I will
agree that you get a slightly sharper image at 300mm but I still
maintain the difference on a large print viewed at normal distance
does not exist. The 100-400L IS is very sharp at 300. It's just that
hardly anyone has ever used it at 300 :-)

Oh I should mention that I can AF with the 100-400 and 1.4x with the
help from the 'bit of tape on a contact' trick. Really, it works very
well for me.

Just my opinion of course.

Signature

Jim Davis
Nature Photography
http://jimdavis.oberro.com
Replies in plain text only please!

Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 28 May 2004 14:04 GMT
> On Wed, 26 May 2004 20:49:17 -0600, "Roger N. Clark (change username

> Yep, that it is. Here's mine. I haven't used a 300/4 IS, but I heard
> it was less sharp than it's brother the 300/2.8 IS.
>
> I'm very pleased with the sharpness of my 100-400L IS.

Here are test images that show how the image degrades with
zoom on the 100-400:
http://clarkvision.com/imagedetail/relative-lens-sharpness

From 200 to 400 mm one would expect an increase in detail
of a factor of 2, but one sees only 1.4 but also one sees
increased flair.

While the 300 f/2.8 L may be extremely sharp, the 300 f/4 is almost
equal.  The 300 mm f/4 resolves more detail on a
subject than the 100-400 at 400mm, even at the same distance,
and a stop faster.
Add a 1.4x TC on the 300 and it remains just as sharp, so you
have 420 mm with with 50% more detail than the 100-400 delivers.
The 100-400 with a TC just makes the flair bigger!

Not my opinion....just the facts.

I may get the 300mm f/4 tests added to the web page soon.

Roger

I use a 10d and
> zooming in to 100% on a Heron's eye, it appears damned sharp. Going
> over 8 by 10 is no problem at all. But then again, I don't view them
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>
> Just my opinion of course.
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 28 May 2004 15:19 GMT
> I'm very pleased with the sharpness of my 100-400L IS.

Jim,
Please print the test chart on the page below and test your
100-400 lens.  I'm very curious about lens to lens
variations.  Perhaps you have a rare 100-400 that
beats the norm in sharpness.  The tests on the page
below are consistent with other data (e.g. MTF charts on
Canon's web site).

> Here are test images that show how the image degrades with
> zoom on the 100-400:
> http://clarkvision.com/imagedetail/relative-lens-sharpness
Jim Davis - 29 May 2004 00:06 GMT
>> I'm very pleased with the sharpness of my 100-400L IS.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>below are consistent with other data (e.g. MTF charts on
>Canon's web site).

Well, printing it myself could also introduce differences, but I'll
have a look. Like I said, I'm very pleased with the sharpness, the
handling, and the size of the lens.
Jim Davis - 29 May 2004 00:19 GMT
>Please print the test chart on the page below and test your
>100-400 lens.  I'm very curious about lens to lens
>variations.  Perhaps you have a rare 100-400 that
>beats the norm in sharpness.  The tests on the page
>below are consistent with other data (e.g. MTF charts on
>Canon's web site).

I'm just curious about some printing properties. What kind of paper
did you print on, and what res? I printed one on plain paper at 720
dpi and it looks a bit faded, does this matter? I have an Epson 890
Photo.

Signature

Jim Davis
Nature Photography
http://jimdavis.oberro.com
Replies in plain text only please!

Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 29 May 2004 04:52 GMT
>>Please print the test chart on the page below and test your
>>100-400 lens.  I'm very curious about lens to lens
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> dpi and it looks a bit faded, does this matter? I have an Epson 890
> Photo.

I printed with highest quality I can do on glossy photo
paper.  My printer is an HP1220C so I printed at
something like 1200 (or maybe it was 1200x2400 dpi).
Your Epson should do just fine if you use glossy photo
paper.

Roger
 
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