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Photo Forum / Photo Technique / Nature Photography / April 2004

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Cruise Ships

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JRF - 04 Apr 2004 04:00 GMT
I'm going on an Alaska cruise in 6 weeks, and I'm wondering about film.

I have favorite ISO 100 and 400 film, but my question is about whether to
bother with the 100 speed stuff.

I don't plan to take a tripod - I'll use a monopod (that doubles as my
cane), and I get satisfactory results that way.  My hands are unsteady
enough these days that I use the monopod for all 100 speed shots.

So, my question is - how steady is the deck of a cruise ship?  I know that
the ship will come to a complete stop at selected locations, so I'm not
wondering about those situations.  I'm wondering about steadiness when the
ship is at normal cruising speed - can I count on a steady enough platform
to use ISO 100 with the monopod, or should I go to 400 and the faster
shutter speeds?  I don't want to give up sharpness, but I don't want to give
up grain unless really necessary.

Any experience out there?  What say you?

Bob in Las Vegas
photo35744 - 04 Apr 2004 05:27 GMT
Leave the 100 asa home and use the 400 asa.  If the weather is cloudy the
extra speed will help plus there is a  lot to photograph onboard ship.
Don't forget your polarizer.
> I'm going on an Alaska cruise in 6 weeks, and I'm wondering about film.
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Bob in Las Vegas
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 04 Apr 2004 05:59 GMT
> Leave the 100 asa home and use the 400 asa.  If the weather is cloudy the
> extra speed will help plus there is a  lot to photograph onboard ship.
> Don't forget your polarizer.

I disagree!  If the conditions are cloudy dull, the extra punch
100 (or even 50) that slide film can add would be well worth it.
I have done an Alaska cruise.  I remember the deck being very steady
and used ONLY ISO 50 Velvia.  But I do not recall using a tripod while
the ship was moving (did when stopped).  If you have a camera whose
manufacturer has image stabilization lenses, consider buying one.
That will help correct unsteady hands.  For example, if you have Canon,
check out the 28-135 IS lens.  For the amount you spend on the
cruise, the lens will pay for itself in memories, and you will
have the lens afterward too.

Roger

>>I'm going on an Alaska cruise in 6 weeks, and I'm wondering about film.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>>
>>Bob in Las Vegas
Stefan Patric - 04 Apr 2004 08:42 GMT
> I'm going on an Alaska cruise in 6 weeks, and I'm wondering about
> film.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Any experience out there?  What say you?

Regardless of which speed film you use, keeping your shutter speed at or
higher than the reciprocal of the focal length of the lens (in
millimeters) is sufficiently fast enough to eliminate the effects of
camera (or ship) movement even in handheld shots.  So, if your focal
length is 100mm, shoot at 1 over 100 -- 1/100 of a sec. -- or faster.
Using a monopod will allow you to use a shutter speed one or two steps
slower, and still have a stable platform.

Another bit of information:  Most lenses are sharpest and best 2 to 3
stops down from wide open.  Unless you need the increased depth of
field, your pictures will be best shooting within that "optimum" f-stop
range.  So, if you maximum f-stop is f2.8, shoot at f5.6 to 8.

Just remember, that a too slow shutter speed will reduce image quality
much more -- because of camera movement during the exposure -- than the
slight losses from shooting at other than the "optimum" f-stop.  So, if
you're loosing light, keep the shutter speed high and open up the lens
NOT vice-versa.

For all, but the most dull, overcast days, 100 speed film should be more
than sufficient.  In my 30 year career as a commercial photographer,
100% of all the stuff I've shot under natural daylight has been with
film in the 25 to 100 speed range.  But carry a few rolls of 400 just
in case it gets really, really overcast.

Signature

Stefan Patric
tootek2@yahoo.com

Dennis Bradley - 04 Apr 2004 09:01 GMT
<snipped>

....> For all, but the most dull, overcast days, 100 speed film should be
more
> than sufficient.  In my 30 year career as a commercial photographer,
> 100% of all the stuff I've shot under natural daylight has been with
> film in the 25 to 100 speed range.  But carry a few rolls of 400 just
> in case it gets really, really overcast.

I was on a similar cruise about 15 years ago.   Most of the time I used 100
or 200 ISO, but had a couple of 400 ISO in the bag.
I agree wholeheartedly with Stefan.

Just one more point.  Take PLENTY of film with you, especially when you go
on off-ship tours.
If I charged for the number of times I loaned a film to fellow trippers, I
would have mad a small fortune.

Dennis
Philippe Boite - 04 Apr 2004 14:07 GMT
> I'm going on an Alaska cruise in 6 weeks, and I'm wondering about film.
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Bob in Las Vegas

My experience is that the ship will be steady enough, but the problem will
be available light.
As others said, don't try a too slow shutter speed as it will increase the
softness of your photos.
In case of low light, I would take a ISO 400 film and use a fast lens so you
can use the bigger f numbers to increase DOF.

Signature

Philippe Boite
http://philippe.boite.free.fr

Rob Holland - 04 Apr 2004 15:33 GMT
Bob:

If you are using print film, the 400 speed will be fine. In some
cases, depending on film type, the contrast may be a little high with
the 400 under very bright conditions. I would try to use the 100 speed
under those conditions. Most modern 400 speed film can be enlarged to
8X10/12 with excellent results. Maybe compromise and go with some 200?
If you are using slide film, I'd stick with 100 speed as much as
possible and use the 400 only when that's what it takes to get the
shot.

Unless you have rough seas the ship should be plenty steady for hand
held or monopod shots. On my last cruise I left the big tripod at home
and carried a very small lightweight one. I used it to get some night
shots of the lights on the ship and a few shots of the port towns.
Everything else was hand held.

Have fun on the cruise and don't eat too much!

Rob

>I'm going on an Alaska cruise in 6 weeks, and I'm wondering about film.
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
>Bob in Las Vegas
PSsquare - 04 Apr 2004 18:11 GMT
Bob,

Been on (arctic) cruises twice and in both cases the ship had enough low
frequency vibration while underway that required hand holding. Since the
engines never shut down, the vibration can persist even at anchor.  Both
ships I experienced were over 300 feet in length.  I observed that any
tripod or monopod picked up the ship vibration easily.  This is not  good.
Not sure if the behemoth cruise liners are any better since they too are all
steel hulled and steel really transmits low frequency vibration essentially
undamped. I would anticipate that stabization of the ship would not address
vibration. It would only make it easier to get the horizon level in you
photos.  The issue to me is obviously less one of available light as it is
of vibration.  So, I would go for the 400 primarily with a some 100 rolls
for landside.

Remember that film is the cheapest part of the trip so never run the chance
of being short at a special opportunity.   Best to bring home unexposed
film.  I sure was glad to have 8 rolls of 400 in 2002 when we had the
unexpected appearance of a pair of polar bears that we could approach with a
Zodiac. I shot all 8 rolls in under 20 minutes.  (Don't expect polar bears
where you are going, but maybe some sea mammals?) Slower film was useless in
my example, even in bright sunlight.

FWIW, I shoot a lot of Fuji Provia 400 and find its color and sharpness
pretty close to the Provia 100 unless you are about to make enlargements
over around 11x14 from the transparency. They project very nicely also.
Nearly all my onboard shots were with 400.  Sometimes the sunsets are very
nice onboard, and then you absolutely need 400.

Kind regards,

PSsquare

> I'm going on an Alaska cruise in 6 weeks, and I'm wondering about film.
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Bob in Las Vegas
warren montgomery - 04 Apr 2004 19:26 GMT
One of the captains of the small tour boats I've been on in Alaska suggested
using a monopod and resting it on your shoe or boot to damp the vibrations
of the engine.  It's a good tip.  I don't know how much of a problem
vibrations are on large cruise ships, but you probably won't get close
enough to the wildlife in a large ship to take reall good wildlife shots so
your best chances may be in smaller craft.  (Glaciers are another matter,
often big enough you want a wider angle.  I would suggest high speed film in
any case since the weather is often overcast near glaciers and you may well
want to shoot with a longer lense, requiring higher speeds.  There are also
many interesting birds, and high speed film with longer lenses are your only
realistic option there.

Signature

Warren Montgomery wamontgomery@att.net  (
http://home.att.net/~wamontgomery )

Dave Herzstein - 05 Apr 2004 15:58 GMT
> One of the captains of the small tour boats I've been on in Alaska suggested
> using a monopod and resting it on your shoe or boot to damp the vibrations
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> many interesting birds, and high speed film with longer lenses are your only
> realistic option there.

Good advice.  I used that technique on my Alaska cruise, a 600' ship.
Monopod on the toe of my tennis shoe was enough to insulate my camera
from the ship's vibrations.

For film, I recommend bringing both 100 and 400 speed film.  It does
occasionally get sunny in Alaska.  Do bring a high-contrast film for
those dull days.

-Dave
PSsquare - 04 Apr 2004 20:13 GMT
Bob,

Been on (arctic) cruises twice and in both cases the ship had enough low
frequency vibration while underway that required hand holding. Since the
engines never shut down, the vibration can persist even at anchor.  Both
ships I experienced were over 300 feet in length.  I observed that any
tripod or monopod picked up the ship vibration easily.  This is not  good.
Not sure if the behemoth cruise liners are any better since they too are all
steel hulled and steel really transmits low frequency vibration essentially
undamped. I would anticipate that stabization of the ship would not address
vibration. It would only make it easier to get the horizon level in you
photos.  The issue to me is obviously less one of available light as it is
of vibration.  So, I would go for the 400 primarily with a some 100 rolls
for landside.

Remember that film is the cheapest part of the trip so never run the chance
of being short at a special opportunity.   Best to bring home unexposed
film.  I sure was glad to have 8 rolls of 400 in 2002 when we had the
unexpected appearance of a pair of polar bears that we could approach with a
Zodiac. I shot all 8 rolls in under 20 minutes.  (Don't expect polar bears
where you are going, but maybe some sea mammals?) Slower film was useless in
my example, even in bright sunlight.

FWIW, I shoot a lot of Fuji Provia 400 and find its color and sharpness
pretty close to the Provia 100 unless you are about to make enlargements
over around 11x14 from the transparency. They project very nicely also.
Nearly all my onboard shots were with 400.  Sometimes the sunsets are very
nice onboard, and then you absolutely need 400.

Kind regards,

PSsquare

> I'm going on an Alaska cruise in 6 weeks, and I'm wondering about film.
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Bob in Las Vegas
JRF - 05 Apr 2004 01:39 GMT
An interesting assortment of recommendations, don't you think?

It's obvious to me that a nice easy "one-size-fits-all" solution doesn't
exist.  And so I have revised my plans accordingly.

I originally planned to take my primary shooter for color and an old manual
for black and white.  Revision #1: take both old manuals - one for B&W and
the other for the other color.  I'll have both 100 and 400 loaded that way,
and while one will be limited to my old prime lenses, that's better than
missing an opportunity.

I also now plan to take a beanbag, which was not in my original plan.  I
frequently don't attach the canera to the monopod, instead just resting it
on the platforn - easier to adjust aiming while providing adequate
steadiness.  Based on all the advice on ship vibration, I'll put the beanbag
on top of the monopod and rest the camera on that.

An interesting outcome - lots of differing opinions and all of them
influenced my decisions.

It'll be a couple of months, but I'll report back on how this all worked out
once I have a chance to look at my results.

Thanx to all.

Bob in Las Vegas
PSsquare - 05 Apr 2004 03:50 GMT
Bob,

Good thinking, especially adding the beanbag. I regularly carried two bodies
on my arctic trips.  A flash would also be nice so that you can punch up the
foreground with some fill flash on those dreary days which are not uncommon.
But, be optimistic. When we were in Southeast Alaska for 3 weeks in August
of 1995, there were some cloudy days, but never did need the rain gear.  It
was usually a mist.

One thing we learned on our Alaska trip was that the cruise ships do not
really show you the character of the towns they visit for several reasons.
First, the stops are too short. Many ships only spent 3 or less hours in
Sitka for example.  Second, there are just too many people when all of the
launches arrive.  After the ships left, Sitka was a quieter and more open
town.  We got individual tours of the famous Russion Orthodox Church by the
priest. He spent a lot of time explaining to our daughter about the icons
etc.  No time for that with 75 visitors.  Often the cruise passengers were
just herded around on school buses to "see the town" and then walked the
main street looking at the same sweatshirts they saw at the last stop. By
contrast, we had the chance to go to a salmon roast at a (VFW?) hall and
talk with a local native carving a totem pole.  We met locals in the cafes
etc. and attended a music celebration one evening.  They always made us feel
comfortable.  The cruise passengers are so fully fed onboard that they never
frequent the cafes or such.  Don't really bring much revenue to the towns.
Really!

We used the Marine Highway (aka ferry) and had time to meet locals such as a
school sports team returning from a tournament in Juneau.  We spent about
the same $$ amount on our 3 weeks as a 5 day cruise fare. Saw a more natural
Alaska.

Just something to think about.  You may want to go back another time and see
Alaska the slow way.

"Slow down, you move too fast.  You've got to make the moment last."

PSsquare

> An interesting assortment of recommendations, don't you think?
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Bob in Las Vegas
JRF - 05 Apr 2004 05:03 GMT
P^2 -

This trip is a compromise - right now I don't have the time available for
the kind of visit you describe and that I want, and my wife has been wanting
to go on a cruise for a long time.  So we'll be garden-variety tourists for
a week.

But I plan to go back - I really want to get into some specific coastal
areas and to Denali in August, but on my own, not part of an organized tour.
I have similar plans for Ireland (an ancestral thing).  Also, my mobility is
limited at the moment - longstanding problems - but there's hope on the
horizon for improvements that would make the future trips feasible.  But
right now, the cruise approach is probably my most realistic option.

Bob in LV

> Bob,
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> PSsquare
Philippe Boite - 05 Apr 2004 19:15 GMT
> P^2 -
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Bob in LV

Have a nice trip, Bob, and bring us some nice photos.

Signature

Philippe Boite
http://philippe.boite.free.fr

Mad Shutter-bug - 11 Apr 2004 15:32 GMT
>I'm going on an Alaska cruise in 6 weeks, and I'm wondering about film.
>
>I have favorite ISO 100 and 400 film, but my question is about whether to
>bother with the 100 speed stuff.

Not an Alaska cruise, to the Bahamas, but didn't have any problems
with ship movement; even through some rolling seas, and using 100
speed film. Plenty of light. Everyone's comments about keeping shutter
speed up as much as possible is good advice.

I found on the cruise ship I was on that A) they could process color
print film on board, if you really wanted to do that, but not slide or
B&W, and B) you could buy film on board, if you really wanted to do
that. Prices are appropriate to the "captive customer" aspect.

On a similar vein, bring along one of the film pouches to protect your
film from x-rays. The cruise line I was on *did not* hand inspect
film. Everything went through the x-ray machine, or you didn't bring
it aboard the ship. This proved true every time we boarded ship, even
from their "private" island. I was sweating that, but since I'd not
brought any 400 speed or higher film, fortunately no visible effects.

However, knowing that now does affect my planning for future cruises.
I'll stick to slower films, use a protective pouch, or switch to
digital.
Mad Shutter-bug
is located generally in North Central Florida with camera in hand
 
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