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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Medium format / May 2004

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M/F film scanners - again?

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Rod - 26 May 2004 18:36 GMT
2 Questions here, I tried the scanner groups and got no answer - since
it's primarily M?F I'm looking at I wonder if you guys have any
answers?
I have taken on board the understanding that the A/D specification is
an indicator of the *potential* Dmax of a scanner given the CCD is
good enough to supply sufficient data to the ADC. No makers ever seem
to give an actual measured Dmax, they just give 12/14/16bit x 3 as an
indicator of potential dynamic range. Apart from trying several
scanners for myself and also taking price as a sort of indicator of
CCD quality, how do I know which scanners are going to make the best
of my slides? An obvious problem is going to be my habit of trying to
take pics when the brightness range is way too great to get good
highlight and shadow detail on the film, let alone on on a scan.I'm
trying to kick this habit but in the meantime I have some very
difficult but potentially rewarding slides to scan.

I see some good close out deals on the  Minolta scan multi II. How
much difference would I see in A3 prints for the 12 bit A/D compared
with the 16 bit A/D of the Scan multi pro or the 14 bit of the
Microtek Artixscan 120TF? Resolution isn't an issue as I'm scanning
medium format for A3 prints. Looking for scans at least comparable
with those I'm getting from 35mm on the Nikon Super Coolscan 4000ED.

Thanks

Rod

Weed my email address to reply
http://website.lineone.net/~rodcraddock/index.html
Bill Hilton - 26 May 2004 19:02 GMT
>From: Rod rodcraddockbittercress@lineone.net

>I have taken on board the understanding that the A/D specification is
>an indicator of the *potential* Dmax of a scanner given the CCD is
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>CCD quality, how do I know which scanners are going to make the best
>of my slides?

Best to either try out the best models (hard to do) or see if someone will do
sample scans for you (I've done that a few times for people I know) or look at
samples of the same image scanned with different scanners, like here ...
nothing like looking at actual files to help you make up your mind.
http://www.imaging-resource.com/SCAN1.HTM

>An obvious problem is going to be my habit of trying to
>take pics when the brightness range is way too great to get good
>highlight and shadow detail on the film, let alone on on a scan.

If the film won't hold the dynamic range then it just gets worse when you scan.

>I see some good close out deals on the  Minolta scan multi II. How
>much difference would I see in A3 prints for the 12 bit A/D compared
>with the 16 bit A/D of the Scan multi pro or the 14 bit of the
>Microtek Artixscan 120TF?

Probably none in real life, assuming the color rendition was similar and the
rez was similar (I think the Artisan is a 4,000 dpi scanner, the Minolta is
3,200 x 4,800 so you have to resample to get the same or higher rez).

>Looking for scans at least comparable
>with those I'm getting from 35mm on the Nikon Super Coolscan 4000ED.

Look at the Nikon 8000 or 9000 too then, since you'll already be familiar with
the software.  Many people (me included) would choose the Nikon over either the
Minolta Multi or the Artisan (which is a re-branded Polaroid).

Bill
Lassi =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hippel=E4inen?= - 26 May 2004 20:39 GMT
>... No makers ever seem
> to give an actual measured Dmax, they just give 12/14/16bit x 3 as an
> indicator of potential dynamic range.

That's the problem. Some people claim that in real life you can't get
even ten bits of real data. The rest are thermal noise. You could try to
find actual test reports from the 'net...

>... How
> much difference would I see in A3 prints for the 12 bit A/D compared
> with the 16 bit A/D of the Scan multi pro or the 14 bit of the
> Microtek Artixscan 120TF?

Depends on the picture. The bits become important, if there are gradual
colours, or if you tweak the curves too much. Smooth surfaces are made
of stripes, defined by the pixels where the least significant bit flips.

-- Lassi
Raphael Bustin - 27 May 2004 02:24 GMT
>I see some good close out deals on the  Minolta scan multi II. How
>much difference would I see in A3 prints for the 12 bit A/D compared
>with the 16 bit A/D of the Scan multi pro or the 14 bit of the
>Microtek Artixscan 120TF? Resolution isn't an issue as I'm scanning
>medium format for A3 prints. Looking for scans at least comparable
>with those I'm getting from 35mm on the Nikon Super Coolscan 4000ED.

Get the LS-9000 and be done with it.

It's at least as good as the LS-8000, and
available new at 2/3 the price I paid for mine
three years ago.

By any measure, the LS-8000 (and presumably
the 9000) is one of the sharpest CCD scanners
available.

Or get a preowned or refurb 8000 on eBay,
typically $1K these days.

The film scanner is as important (to the image)
as the camera and film that made the image in
the first place.  Not a good place to skimp.

rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com
Pete - 27 May 2004 12:58 GMT
You know, you could consider making or getting a nice print made of your
keepers, and then just scanning the print. Even a very cheap flatbed can do
that nicely. That way, you have the print which you can mount and display,
and you can show it on the web or whatever, and you don't have to spend
$1000 on a peripheral that is quickly superceded by better models.
Pete

> >I see some good close out deals on the  Minolta scan multi II. How
> >much difference would I see in A3 prints for the 12 bit A/D compared
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> rafe b.
> http://www.terrapinphoto.com
Raphael Bustin - 27 May 2004 14:52 GMT
>You know, you could consider making or getting a nice print made of your
>keepers, and then just scanning the print. Even a very cheap flatbed can do
>that nicely. That way, you have the print which you can mount and display,
>and you can show it on the web or whatever, and you don't have to spend
>$1000 on a peripheral that is quickly superceded by better models.
>Pete

A print has less dynamic range by far than either a
negative or a chrome.  Information (tonal range) will
be lost making the print.

Working from the original is always better.

rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com
Pete - 27 May 2004 17:50 GMT
> >You know, you could consider making or getting a nice print made of your
> >keepers, and then just scanning the print. Even a very cheap flatbed can do
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> rafe b.
> http://www.terrapinphoto.com

You don't think you can get a good scan from a 5x7 or better print? The
things that film scanners bring us are really only of use if we intend to
print the scanned file on a computer printer. Of course, it's better to scan
the original negative if the idea is to "work" on it and print from it, but
if the intention is merely to show the photo on the web, scanning a nice
conventional print is more than good enough, and you don't have to keep up
with the Jones's in terms of scanners.
Pete
Q.G. de Bakker - 30 May 2004 10:28 GMT
> You don't think you can get a good scan from a 5x7 or better print?
> [...]

What's good?
Compared to a scan done from film, a print scan is not good, no.
And that does show when the scanned image is used only on computer displays.

That's not to say that you can't use scans made from prints. They're just
not as good. Yet lacking a comparison... ;-)
Stacey - 30 May 2004 21:51 GMT
>> You don't think you can get a good scan from a 5x7 or better print?
>> [...]
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> And that does show when the scanned image is used only on computer
> displays.

I'm not sure anyone would be able to see the difference in a "web size" jpeg
image of say even 640X480 in size between a scan of a print and a scan of
the original film. Given many people display their images smaller than this
(for fear of them being stolen?) I can't see any reason to be scanning film
for web display purposes if the print being scanned looks good.

Signature


 Stacey

Q.G. de Bakker - 31 May 2004 00:27 GMT
> I'm not sure anyone would be able to see the difference in a "web size" jpeg
> image of say even 640X480 in size between a scan of a print and a scan of
> the original film. Given many people display their images smaller than this
> (for fear of them being stolen?) I can't see any reason to be scanning film
> for web display purposes if the print being scanned looks good.

You will indeed see a clear difference. In this case, size does not matter.
A scan made from film has better/"cleaner"/"crisper" contrast, and is
sharper. It just looks better, even in small sizes.
I know, because i used to scan prints quite a lot before i began using a
film scanner. (And yes, both flatbed and film scanner are good, i.e not to
blame for the difference.)
;-)
Stacey - 31 May 2004 00:31 GMT
> You will indeed see a clear difference. In this case, size does not
> matter. A scan made from film has better/"cleaner"/"crisper" contrast, and
> is sharper. It just looks better, even in small sizes.
> I know, because i used to scan prints quite a lot before i began using a
> film scanner. (And yes, both flatbed and film scanner are good, i.e not to
> blame for the difference.)

What film scanner are you using and do you have some samples where I can see
how much difference you're talking about. -I- might not be able to see
it.  :-)

I've tried scanning film on my flatbed and at least with the scanner I have,
the results from prints looks better on screen.

Signature


 Stacey

Q.G. de Bakker - 31 May 2004 00:55 GMT
> What film scanner are you using

Nikon 8000

> and do you have some samples where I can see
> how much difference you're talking about.

Sorry, but no.

> -I- might not be able to see
> it.  :-)
>
> I've tried scanning film on my flatbed and at least with the scanner I have,
> the results from prints looks better on screen.

Ah yes, scanning film using flatbeds is not the way to go...
;-)
Stacey - 31 May 2004 04:38 GMT
>> What film scanner are you using
>
> Nikon 8000

Ah....

> Ah yes, scanning film using flatbeds is not the way to go...
> ;-)

 So I've gathered. :-)

I think for the small amount of digital work I'm doing (sharing shot with
friends), I'll stick with scanning prints for now.
Signature


 Stacey

Matt McGrattan - 31 May 2004 01:15 GMT
>>> You don't think you can get a good scan from a 5x7 or better print?
>>> [...]
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>(for fear of them being stolen?) I can't see any reason to be scanning film
>for web display purposes if the print being scanned looks good.

My experience scanning images from my Lubitel (yeah, I know...) has
been that the images scanned from the negative using a flatbed with a
transparent media adapter are massively better than those scanned from
the print.

In particular the detail in the shadows that isn't that clear in the
print is much better in the scans from negative. The dynamic range is
wider and it's genuinely noticeable even on small images for the web
(say 600 x 600 pixels).

Here's a scan from a piece of film:

http://www.mcgrattan.f2s.com/lub_film.jpg

here's a detail from the same scan:

http://www.mcgrattan.f2s.com/lub_film_detail.jpg

Here's the scan from the print:

http://www.mcgrattan.f2s.com/lub_print.jpg

here's the same area from a scan from the print:

http://www.mcgrattan.f2s.com/lub_print_detail.jpg

The detail is taken from the darkest centre area.

The original scans were at comparable levels of detail i.e. the print
was scanned at a relatively low res and the film at higher but the
larger size of the print meant that the final images were almost
exactly the same number of pixels wide and high.

Both images had the same unsharp masking routine run on them and the
same level tweak to try and bring out comparable levels of detail in
the shadows. Neither is a straight unmodified scan - the original scan
wasn't done for this kind of comparison. But both had the same things
done to them.

Neither is scanned at the maximum resolution I had available and I
have done better scans from film using medium format negs.

Matt

P.S. The image isn't great, it's just the only one I had handy that I
had already scanned from film and from print.
Stacey - 31 May 2004 04:46 GMT
> My experience scanning images from my Lubitel (yeah, I know...) has
> been that the images scanned from the negative using a flatbed with a
> transparent media adapter are massively better than those scanned from
> the print.

What scanner/software are you using. Just wondering as I've never gotten
decent scans of film, especially negative film using my Umax2200. Chromes
come out OK as long as they aren't very dense.

> In particular the detail in the shadows that isn't that clear in the
> print is much better in the scans from negative.

So are you saying this detail wasn't in the print you scanned but was on the
negative? Maybe you're scanning a poor print?

Just trying to figure out how your flatbed scans of prints look so bad when
mine look better than the scans from the negs!
Signature


 Stacey

Matt McGrattan - 31 May 2004 08:08 GMT
>> My experience scanning images from my Lubitel (yeah, I know...) has
>> been that the images scanned from the negative using a flatbed with a
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>Just trying to figure out how your flatbed scans of prints look so bad when
>mine look better than the scans from the negs!

The scanner for the negative was an Epson Perfection 2400. The scanner
for the print was an earlier Epson scanner without a transparency kit.

The software in both cases was the standard Epson TWAIN software then
into Photoshop for minor level tweaks and then into Neat Image for
(un)sharp masking.

However, the lack of scan detail is not an artefact of two different
scanners being in use. I've tried scanning some images from print on
the Perfection 2400 and the results still aren't as good as scans from
negative.

Also, the print wasn't a poor print. The print was done by a pro-lab
and looks good - nice and sharp and contrasty. But it just doesn't
have the detail or range of the negative.

Matt
Stacey - 31 May 2004 16:14 GMT
>Also, the print wasn't a poor print. The print was done by a pro-lab
>and looks good - nice and sharp and contrasty. But it just doesn't
> have the detail or range of the negative.

I'm kinda confused here. Does the actual print look like the scanned
negative when looking at the print and the screen at the same time?

If not there is something wrong with the print whoever printed it. Now if
you're getting better results from -your- negatives scanning than the
person doing your printing, that's great!
Signature


 Stacey

Rod - 30 May 2004 20:09 GMT
Thanks guys,
After spending a long time going around this in ever decreasing
circles, I decided (with the help of my resident financial adviser)
to just be happy with the m/f slides and get myself a few each year of
the best images printed by a good pro lab. After all the wall space in
our house is limited ;-) That way even ten years down the line they
will be scanned by the best scanners available at the time. If I want
digital output for the web or for recording what we're doing at work I
will go there directly by way of the Fuji S2 pro I've ordered. When
all's said and done no print is ever going to get near those 6x7
slides.

Rod

Weed my email address to reply
http://website.lineone.net/~rodcraddock/index.html
 
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