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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Medium format / May 2004

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" What Are LV and EV "

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Dan Quinn - 25 May 2004 22:37 GMT
From Google enter the above just as written.

Another attempt has been made to dissociate ISO from EV. I'll leave it
up to the reader.

I believe that EV and ISO are inseparable. As those familiar know, the
EV does change as the ISO changes. Ipso facto.                     Dan
Lassi =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hippel=E4inen?= - 26 May 2004 14:01 GMT
> From Google enter the above just as written.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I believe that EV and ISO are inseparable. As those familiar know, the
> EV does change as the ISO changes. Ipso facto.                     Dan

No. 1/125s and f:16 makes EV15 at any ISO rating.

-- Lassi
Severi Salminen - 26 May 2004 15:17 GMT
> Another attempt has been made to dissociate ISO from EV. I'll leave it
> up to the reader.
>
> I believe that EV and ISO are inseparable. As those familiar know, the
> EV does change as the ISO changes. Ipso facto.                     Dan

You are confusing EV and "correct exposure". EV is simply a
speed/shutter combo (all combinations resulting same exposure) and holds
no info on ISO, subject brightness, correct exposure etc.

EV does not change as the ISO changes. But it has to _be changed_ if the
user wants to keep the exposure on the negative the same. That is a
different thing.

As Lassi said, EV15 is allways 1/125s at f/16 (or 1/250, f/11 etc.) no
matter what subject, ISO or weekday.
David J. Littleboy - 26 May 2004 16:10 GMT
> > Another attempt has been made to dissociate ISO from EV. I'll leave it
> > up to the reader.
> >
> > I believe that EV and ISO are inseparable. As those familiar know, the
> > EV does change as the ISO changes. Ipso facto.                     Dan

Correct! (If the light level and resultant film density are held
constant<g>.)

> You are confusing EV and "correct exposure". EV is simply a
> speed/shutter combo (all combinations resulting same exposure) and holds
> no info on ISO, subject brightness, correct exposure etc.

Hmm. The dictionary at hand defines EV as being LV + film speed, where LV is
the light level.

In the APEX system: EV = AV + TV = BV + SV

Where all values are logs, AV is aperture, TV is shutter speed, BV is the
light level in foot candles.

> EV does not change as the ISO changes. But it has to _be changed_ if the
> user wants to keep the exposure on the negative the same. That is a
> different thing.
>
> As Lassi said, EV15 is allways 1/125s at f/16 (or 1/250, f/11 etc.) no
> matter what subject, ISO or weekday.

It seems you're both right. The EV value for a given light level changes
with the ISO, but the shutter speed/f stop combination for a given EV is
always the same.

David J. Littleboy
davidjl@learn.something.new.everyday.com
Tokyo, Japan
Q.G. de Bakker - 26 May 2004 20:19 GMT
> It seems you're both right. The EV value for a given light level changes
> with the ISO, but the shutter speed/f stop combination for a given EV is
> always the same.

No, no, no...

When you start by misinterpeting (!) what EVs are, and begin talking about
the EV value of a light level (Please! You actually DO know better!), then
the "EV value" (i.e. a travesty)  changes with the ISO. Yes.

The premisses are completely wrong, so you can not say that the conclusion
is right. Classic schoolbook example of a fallacy: the ex falso quod libet
thingy.

So no, they're not (!!!) both right.
Dan Quinn - 26 May 2004 23:40 GMT
> Hmm. The dictionary at hand defines EV as being LV + film speed, where
> LV is the light level.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> David J. Littleboy

 That's the way I learned it and that's the way my meter does it.
 Case Closed!

 "What Are LV and EV" is a site which can be reached via Google.
I have not actually studied the material at that site. My knowledge
of the subject is from an article in one of three or four publications.
I've not been able to relocate it; it's around somewhere.          Dan
Dan Quinn - 26 May 2004 23:09 GMT
> > Another attempt has been made to dissociate ISO from EV. I'll leave it
> > up to the reader.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> speed/shutter combo (all combinations resulting same exposure) and holds
> no info on ISO, subject brightness, correct exposure etc.

 It's a wonder people spend money on meters which measure light
intensity in EV.

> EV does not change as the ISO changes. But it has to _be changed_ if
> the user wants to keep the exposure on the negative the same. That is a
> different thing.

 My Sekonic measures light intensity at an ISO of 100. That is likely
common practice amoung manufactures. At EV0 the suggested correct
exposure is 1sec at f1. At ISO 50 the EV is 1 and at ISO 200 the
EV is -1. So.


> As Lassi said, EV15 is allways 1/125s at f/16 (or 1/250, f/11 etc.) no
> matter what subject, ISO or weekday.

 BTW, some of you fellows have'nt by any chance been reading
Phil Davis?                                               Dan
Severi Salminen - 27 May 2004 10:05 GMT
> It's a wonder people spend money on meters which measure light
> intensity in EV.

At least considering to the fact that EV has nothing to do with light
intensity...

> My Sekonic measures light intensity at an ISO of 100. That is likely
> common practice amoung manufactures. At EV0 the suggested correct
> exposure is 1sec at f1. At ISO 50 the EV is 1 and at ISO 200 the
> EV is -1. So.

Of course, the EV is altered to reflect the correct exposure on negative
- otherwise you would not get correct exposure. Again, EV in itself does
not have to do anything else than speed/aperture combination. When you
indicate certain EV, you don't have to know the ISO, nor does the EV
indicate any ISO. ISO affects EV only because "correct" exposure is
involved. But EV, by definition, does not know about ISO or correct
exposure, or light levels.

From the link you gave - which you didn't even read:

"Each Light Value, or LV, corresponds to a known level of light coming
from a subject.

Each Exposure Value, or EV, represents any of many different but
equivalent combinations of f/stop and shutter speed. For instance, 1/250
at f/8 is EV14, and so is 1/125 at f/11. 1/125 at f/8, one stop more
exposure, is EV13, and 1/250 at f/11, one stop less exposure, is EV15.",
Ken Rockwell

I think this "conversation" is a bit fruitless from now on, so thank
you. Maybe we even remotely agree...

Severi S.
Pete - 27 May 2004 13:02 GMT
The EV number itself does not change with exposure settings. If a scene has
an EV of 12, it has an EV of 12 no matter what. However, the ISO rating of
the film affects what combination of aperture and shutter speed you need.
You're not changing the EV, you're change the settings that achieve it.
Pete
Lassi =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hippel=E4inen?= - 27 May 2004 13:30 GMT
> The EV number itself does not change with exposure settings. If a scene has
> an EV of 12, it has an EV of 12 no matter what.

A scene does not have an EV of anything. EV describes the camera
settings only. A scene may have an LV of 12 on a cloudy day.

> However, the ISO rating of
> the film affects what combination of aperture and shutter speed you need.

Yes. From the LV, film speed, and your tastes concerning correct
exposure you can derive an EV. The exposure meter does part of the
estimation by suggesting an EV for the measured LV and given film speed.

> You're not changing the EV, you're change the settings that achieve it.

When you change the camera settings, you most likely change the EV,
because the EV depends on aperture and shutter speed. But when done
properly, they can be changed without changing EV. Get a camera with an
EV scale. The aperture and shutter rings rotate in opposite directions,
so that when you turn them in lock, the EV setting remains constant. In
some cameras they are interlocked by default.

If you claim that ISO affects EV, because your exposure meter says so,
I'll show you my camera. Its settings do not change with ISO.

-- Lassi
Pete - 27 May 2004 17:53 GMT
> > The EV number itself does not change with exposure settings. If a scene has
> > an EV of 12, it has an EV of 12 no matter what.
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> -- Lassi

Look, it's very simple. I've been using manual exposure cameras with EV
numbers for like 30 years. You decide what EV the scene calls for (with or
without a meter), and then you set your combination of aperture and shutter
speed to reflect the EV that you chose to expose for. It's as simple as
that. There's no need to complicate it. Of course the ISO rating of the film
you want to use will affect what shutter speed and aperture combination you
have to use for a given EV.
Pete
Q.G. de Bakker - 27 May 2004 21:18 GMT
> Look, it's very simple.

Indeed....

> I've been using manual exposure cameras with EV
> numbers for like 30 years. You decide what EV the scene calls for (with or
> without a meter), and then you set your combination of aperture and shutter
> speed to reflect the EV that you chose to expose for. It's as simple as
> that.

No, it isn;t.
It is perplexingly simple, yes. But you're still quite wrong.
You do NOT decide what EV the scene calls for, you decide what EV CORRECT
EXPOSURE calls for.
And correct exposure depends on two things: the light level in the scene and
how much light the film needs.

Then apertures and shutterspeeds come into play (and then EVs too apear):
you need to chose a combination of aperture and shutterspeed that will
govern the amount of light present in the film permited to reach the film.
Set too long a speed or too large an aperture, and the ratio between light
levels both on film and in the scene will be wrong to get correct exposure.
And doing the reverse will have a similar, but inverse, effect on that
ratio.

So given a certain scene light level, and given a certain film speed, there
is only one ratio between the two that will produce correct exposure.
Since both aperture and shutterspeed govern that ratio, it is correct to say
that there is only one aperture-shutterspeed combination that will produce
the correct ratio, the correct exposure.
That combination is the EV that will produce *correct exposure*. The EV that
is appropriate for the scene and film, if you will.
Separate things, you see?

As we all know changing aperture and simultaneously changing shuterspeeds
inversly will keep the ratio between light levels on film and in the scene
constant, will keep correct exposure. And if the combination produces a
certain incorrect exposure, changing both this way will keep the magnitude
of the fault constant.
So (as we all know too) there is not just one aperture-shutterspeed
combination that will produce correct exposure/the correct ratio, but many.
And consequently a certain EV value does not just indicate one such
combination, but all that produce equivalent exposure, all produce the same
ratio (and this is quite independent (!!!) of whether or not this
exposure/ratio will produce the desired/correct exposure for the light level
in the scene and film speed used!). So all are given the same EV value.

That's the entire reason EV values exist: as a simple shorthand notation for
many aperture-shutterspeed combinations.

So understand this, and remember it forever: There are no light levels nor
ISO values in EV, just shutterspeeds and apertures.

> There's no need to complicate it. Of course the ISO rating of the film
> you want to use will affect what shutter speed and aperture combination you
> have to use for a given EV.

That's not a matter of complicating things. It's a matter of what you (and
others ) are saying just being very incorrect. And that while, as you too
mention, it is all so simple.
Pete - 28 May 2004 13:38 GMT
Geez, I feel like I just accidentally walked into the argument clinic in
Monty Python.

Pete

> > Look, it's very simple.
>
[quoted text clipped - 58 lines]
> others ) are saying just being very incorrect. And that while, as you too
> mention, it is all so simple.
Q.G. de Bakker - 27 May 2004 21:00 GMT
> The EV number itself does not change with exposure settings. If a scene has
> an EV of 12, it has an EV of 12 no matter what.

This is the entire falacy beautifully expressed. A scene does not posses a
property called EV.

> However, the ISO rating of
> the film affects what combination of aperture and shutter speed you need.
> You're not changing the EV, you're change the settings that achieve it.

No, no.
EV only changes when you change the settings, because (and now get this) EV
is nothing but an aperture-shutterspeed combination.
So you can change light levels (the only input the scene has in the entire
exposure metering thing), and you can change the ISO value, but "EV" will
not change one iota.
Until you touch either aperture or shuterspeed setting.
Dan Quinn - 27 May 2004 23:40 GMT
> At least considering the fact that EV has nothing to do with light
> intensity...

 Are you sure you've not been reading you know who?
 My Sekonic measures light intensity in EV units at an ISO of 100.
 I suggest leaving LV completely out of your thinking and look only
at EV. Also, the word "correct" appeares very often. I wonder that it
should appeare even once. I wonder it's source.
 Perhaps the matter is TOO obvious, TOO simple.
Severi Salminen - 28 May 2004 14:03 GMT
>>At least considering the fact that EV has nothing to do with light
>>intensity...
>>
> Are you sure you've not been reading you know who?

??

> My Sekonic measures light intensity in EV units at an ISO of 100.
> I suggest leaving LV completely out of your thinking and look only
> at EV. Also, the word "correct" appeares very often. I wonder that it
> should appeare even once. I wonder it's source.
> Perhaps the matter is TOO obvious, TOO simple.

Here we go again... EV is a unit that describes the ratio of certain
shutter speed and aperture combinations. It is called EV, exposure
value. That has nothing to do with correct exposure, light intensity,
luxes, candelas, foot-candles or any other quantities related to light.

Your light meter does not measure light levels in EVs as EV has nothing
to do with light intensity or subject brightness - as I and Q.G. wrote
earlier. Your light meter measures the light using a silicon photo
diode, then it outputs an EV value using at least the next data: light
measurement from the diode, ISO speed that you have set, K-factor that
is usually factory pre-set (can be calibrated).

The result is an EV value, that you use to take the picture. The EV
value in itself does not have anything to do with luxes, candelas or ISO
settings - only with shutter speeds and aperture. Got it?

Can you answer this question: what is the average intensity (you can
choose the unit) of a subject, that requires me to use EV11 (1/60 at
f/5.6, for example) with my camera?

Yep, you can't answer it...

Severi S.
Jani - 28 May 2004 18:49 GMT
> Here we go again... EV is a unit that describes the ratio of certain
> shutter speed and aperture combinations. It is called EV, exposure
> value. That has nothing to do with correct exposure, light intensity,
> luxes, candelas, foot-candles or any other quantities related to light.

Actually EV can be calculated with either shutter speed and aperture or film
speed and light intensity.
I had some formulas of this a while ago when I was doing a project of
designing a high sensitivity light meter.
But your are right the actual value EV has nothing to do with correct
exposure it's just a ratio.

Jani
Q.G. de Bakker - 28 May 2004 20:31 GMT
> Actually EV can be calculated with either shutter speed and aperture or film
> speed and light intensity.
> I had some formulas of this a while ago when I was doing a project of
> designing a high sensitivity light meter.

Be careful, since this kind of thing is exactly why people are so cinfused
about EV.
What you can calculate is "what EV is suitable" given a certain light level
and film speed.

Its like formulas calculating how long a pice of string should be given two
other entities that requie a piece of string of certain length.
While people will never believe that the unit of length is defined by these
other two entities, the somehow do believe that EV is defined by those two
other entities in such calculations.
The reason why they do so is very hard to fathom. But, as we see here too,
they'll jumpt at ny opportunity to demonstrate they do.

So again, be careful. Always explain that what you are calculating is not
what EV is, but what the magnitude in EV of another entity must be to
satisfy the demands set by some goal (in this case correct exposure),
depending on other entities, light level and film speed, as well.

> But your are right the actual value EV has nothing to do with correct
> exposure it's just a ratio.

And it has nothing to do with either film speed or light levels, yes.
Jani - 29 May 2004 04:35 GMT
> Be careful, since this kind of thing is exactly why people are so cinfused
> about EV.
> What you can calculate is "what EV is suitable" given a certain light level
> and film speed.
In the formula which was used by the processor of the meter the two formulas
for ev were combined and
after that there were no ev's needed any longer just shutter speed,
aperture, film speed and light intensity.

> Its like formulas calculating how long a pice of string should be given two
> other entities that requie a piece of string of certain length.
Yes, couldn't have said it better myself. :)

Jani
Q.G. de Bakker - 27 May 2004 20:56 GMT
> > You are confusing EV and "correct exposure". EV is simply a
> > speed/shutter combo (all combinations resulting same exposure) and holds
> > no info on ISO, subject brightness, correct exposure etc.
>
>   It's a wonder people spend money on meters which measure light
> intensity in EV.

And it's all so obvious...
Light meters do *not* measure light levels in EV.

They measure light levels and suggest what aperture and shutterspeeds can be
set to get the appropriate exposure for metered light level and set film
speed.

See the four separate entities there? a) light level, b) aperture, c)
shutterspeed, d) film speed?
EV's are no more than a combination of b) and c). Really no more. The other
two entities are just that: two quite separate entities.

They make sense when combined, yes. But that still does not mean that EVs
involve light levels nor ISO values...

>   My Sekonic measures light intensity at an ISO of 100. That is likely
> common practice amoung manufactures. At EV0 the suggested correct
> exposure is 1sec at f1. At ISO 50 the EV is 1 and at ISO 200 the
> EV is -1. So.

I hope for you that it will measure light intensities "at" other ISO values
too.
Craig Schroeder - 28 May 2004 04:21 GMT
This is one of those forehead slappers when it finally sinks in....
Go find an EV capable meter to help this register in your mind.  Set
the EV dial to any number.  Now turn the film speed to various
ASA's....  The EV number stays the same, ie, EV 10 = 1/60 at f4.0 at
any ASA.  The combination of the metered light and ASA will give the
correct EV number and that in turn will determine the shutter/aperture
combination.

Years ago I used the EV system with my Rollei TLR's and it's a very
nice system once you've used it and much simpler to use than explain.
It's one of those "Throw the cow over the fence some hay" semantic
things.....

>From Google enter the above just as written.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>I believe that EV and ISO are inseparable. As those familiar know, the
>EV does change as the ISO changes. Ipso facto.                     Dan
 
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