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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Medium format / May 2004Incident Metering and Senics - Oil & Water?
I'm not sure at all I want a camera mounted meter. I like to travel the trail and off trail with tripod and camera in hand. A spot meter at one time was my sole desire. Now and then I think back to the days when I used a Weston and did well. I'm in the woods for most of the pictures I take. Should I look for an incident meter or one of the Weston types? If an incident will do are there any tricks for useing when shooting senics? And of course, what brand/model will do well? Dan >From: dan.c.quinn@att.net (Dan Quinn) >I'm not sure at all I want a camera mounted meter. The more meters you have the better, especially when they actually agree :) And having an in-camera meter means you don't have to fiddle around adjusting the readings if you are using filters, so they have a place. >A spot meter at one time was my sole desire. I use a Pentax 1 degree spot meter quite a bit, especially with medium format when the scene has important non-midtone values or for checking the contrast range in a scene, but often I find it just agrees with the in-camera meter. My flash meter has an incident meter mode as well but I use it mainly for portraits, etc where you are in close to the subject. I find it's less useful in the field, compared to the spot meter. >I'm in the woods for most of the pictures I take. Should I look for >an incident meter or one of the Weston types? If an incident will do >are there any tricks for useing when shooting senics? The biggest problem with using an incident meter for landscapes is sometimes you can't put the meter where the subject is. No problem if the light is very even, but a problem if the light is different where you are standing compared to what you are shooting, or if shooting in rapidly changing light, like a clearing storm. Or in contrasty light like you often get "in the woods", where you are likely worried about the shadows blocking up or the highlights burning too hot. That's why I prefer a spot meter instead of an incident meter for landscapes, you can easily check for these conditions, even from a distance. >And of course, what brand/model will do well? Gossen and Sekonic are the two biggest names and either does fine. The latest Sekonic is getting rave reviews but is pretty heavy and bulky. The Luna Pro is the classic standard and much smaller and lighter. Bill >I'm not sure at all I want a camera mounted meter. I like to travel >the trail and off trail with tripod and camera in hand. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >And of course, what brand/model will do well? Dan A spot meter will tell you the overall range of brightness represented in the scene, and that may tell you whether or not the photo stands a chance of being captured properly. Daylight photos in the woods often have more range than film can handle. Some photographers simply won't bother shooting in such cases. With a spot meter, ultimately, you have to decide where to set the exposure, given what you measure and the image you have in mind. Lately, with my LF shooting, I've been using my meter on "average" and getting by pretty well. It's generally worked well enough on MF and 35 mm. Must admit I've always been fond of the "center weighted" TTL metering on my old Nikon FE. rafe b. http://www.terrapinphoto.com > I'm not sure at all I want a camera mounted meter. I like to travel > the trail and off trail with tripod and camera in hand. > > A spot meter at one time was my sole desire. Now and then I think > back to the days when I used a Weston and did well. If you did well with a Weston back then, you can do well with a Weston again. : I'm not sure at all I want a camera mounted meter. I like to travel : the trail and off trail with tripod and camera in hand. : A spot meter at one time was my sole desire. Now and then I think : back to the days when I used a Weston and did well. : I'm in the woods for most of the pictures I take. Should I look for : an incident meter or one of the Weston types? If an incident will do : are there any tricks for useing when shooting senics? You could always get a dual meter like the Sekonic 558 and have the best of both worlds. Me I like using spot meters for everything but when using studio lights. : And of course, what brand/model will do well? Dan  SignatureKeep working millions on welfare depend on you ------------------- fwp@deepthought.com > : I'm not sure at all I want a camera mounted meter. I like to travel > : the trail and off trail with tripod and camera in hand. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > : And of course, what brand/model will do well? Dan The manual for my 40+ year-old Sekonic "Brockway" incident meter gives the following advice: "Consistently fine exposures on landscapes may be achieved by a slight variation in the normal method of using the Brockway which will compensate for side and backlighted scenes. Take one reading in the normal way with the Photosphere facing away from the scene, then take a second reading with the Photosphere pointed directly at the sun. Set your exposure directly between these two readings." : > : I'm not sure at all I want a camera mounted meter. I like to travel : > : the trail and off trail with tripod and camera in hand. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] : > : > : And of course, what brand/model will do well? Dan : The manual for my 40+ year-old Sekonic "Brockway" incident meter gives the : following advice: : "Consistently fine exposures on landscapes may be achieved by a slight : variation in the normal method of using the Brockway which will compensate : for side and backlighted scenes. Take one reading in the normal way with : the Photosphere facing away from the scene, then take a second reading with : the Photosphere pointed directly at the sun. Set your exposure directly : between these two readings." I've noticed from Sekonic's website that they push incident metering. As I've said many times I prefer using spotmeters. SignatureKeep working millions on welfare depend on you ------------------- fwp@deepthought.com > I've noticed from Sekonic's website that they push incident metering. As I've > said many times I prefer using spotmeters. I believe that the Brockway was their first incident light meter. Their entire user manual features studio setups. It is apparent that they were marketing that meter toward portrait / studio photographers. The meter does come with something called a Photogrid, which can be used to point tie sensor directly at the subject and take a reflected metering, so they seem to admit, if only tacitly, that there ARE situations where a reflected-type meter might be more appropriate. As I do primarily print work, with color negative film's wider exposure latitude as compared to chrome's, I haven't had any problem using the Brockway meter. On critical shots, I just bracket one stop in each direction. I remember when I used to use the suggested shutter speed/f-stops based on the manufacturers' recommendations on the film package, and I still got decently-exposed negs! (I'm still trying to define what Kodak called "Cloudy-Bright"). I'm a creature of habit. The Brockway has served me well for nearly 4 decades, and I just don't see any need to switch horses now . . . Heck, I still shoot with my Yashica Model A TLR, from 1958! Stopped down to f/8, the images are pretty good. : > I've noticed from Sekonic's website that they push incident metering. As : I've : > said many times I prefer using spotmeters. : I believe that the Brockway was their first incident light meter. Their : entire user manual features studio setups. It is apparent that they were : marketing that meter toward portrait / studio photographers. : The meter does come with something called a Photogrid, which can be used to : point tie sensor directly at the subject and take a reflected metering, so : they seem to admit, if only tacitly, that there ARE situations where a : reflected-type meter might be more appropriate. : As I do primarily print work, with color negative film's wider exposure : latitude as compared to chrome's, I haven't had any problem using the : Brockway meter. On critical shots, I just bracket one stop in each : direction. : I remember when I used to use the suggested shutter speed/f-stops based on : the manufacturers' recommendations on the film package, and I still got : decently-exposed negs! (I'm still trying to define what Kodak called : "Cloudy-Bright"). : I'm a creature of habit. The Brockway has served me well for nearly 4 : decades, and I just don't see any need to switch horses now . . . Heck, I : still shoot with my Yashica Model A TLR, from 1958! Stopped down to f/8, : the images are pretty good. I agree that for studio work with strobes that incident metering is the way to go. SignatureKeep working millions on welfare depend on you ------------------- fwp@deepthought.com > I'm not sure at all I want a camera mounted meter. I like to travel > the trail and off trail with tripod and camera in hand. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > And of course, what brand/model will do well? Dan Four years ago I decided I should take my on and off trail trecks more seriously so I switched from 35mmm to 6x4.5. Save for lens focal lengths and speed I'd have chosen 6x6. For my purposes the 6x4.5 is a bother. The always upright, in the field and in the darkroom, nature of the 6x6 format is much more quick and convenient. BUT, I was eBay ignorant and unaware of the Mamiya 6x7s and there revolveing backs. So now I've an RB ProS with the nifty 1.414 lens ratios; one each 65mm, 90mm, and 127mm. I also am putting a RZ system togeather. Those two, the Mamiya 6x7s, as well as the 6x6s stay on top of the tripod. Of course the 6x6 remains the quickest to use of all camera formats whatever the occasion. The ETRSi's AEIII metering prism has proven to be a pain in the neck so I bought the rotory. Much better but no meter. I put my Olympus C-2040 to the task. At telephoto it's spot mode is quite tight. Once again metering proved to be a bother. Three day ago I took my eBay Sekonic L-228 into the woods and stream filled gorges. It's 8 degree coverage was very usefull. Now I'm on the right track using camera independent metering. I compose the scene then meter. I'm shopping for an incident meter or two to try. One will likely be a Weston with Invercone. Dan This and all which follows I've written. A follow up is at bottom. > > I'm not sure at all I want a camera mounted meter. I like to travel > > the trail and off trail with tripod and camera in hand. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > meter or two to try. One will likely be a Weston with > Invercone. Dan "One will likely be a Weston with Invercone" Sure enough, eBay delivered a model II with ALL the fixings, mint minus and under $30. Low light readings are limited. EV 7 or 8 is about it. ISO 100, 1sec, at f1 is EV1 is it not? Dan >From: dan.c.quinn@att.net (Dan Quinn) > Low light readings are limited. EV 7 or 8 is about it. > >ISO 100, 1sec, at f1 is EV1 is it not? According to the scale on my Pentax spotmeter EV 1 @ ISO 100 is f/1 at 1/2 sec. Bill I had this in my links... http://www.chem.helsinki.fi/~toomas/photo/ev.html FWIW.... I've settled into an incident routine for scenics and have been pleased with the results. It's a rare situation that won't get you right on the money with a bit of practice and understanding of your materials. >>From: dan.c.quinn@att.net (Dan Quinn) > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Bill > >From: Dan Quinn > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > According to the scale on my Pentax spotmeter EV 1 @ ISO 100 is > f/1 at 1/2 sec. Bill It sounded so correct; ISO100, 1sec, f1, so EV1. So, EV0. Dan >>>ISO 100, 1sec, at f1 is EV1 is it not? >> According to the scale on my Pentax spotmeter >> EV 1 @ ISO 100 is f/1 at 1/2 sec. > It sounded so correct; ISO100, 1sec, f1, so EV1. So, EV0. Dan EV 0 agrees with the chart in the link Craig Schroeder just posted also, so I guess it's now unanimous :) > >>>ISO 100, 1sec, at f1 is EV1 is it not? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > EV 0 agrees with the chart in the link Craig Schroeder just posted also, so I > guess it's now unanimous :) Then you are all wrong... EV doesn't care about film sensitivity, but there is also the LV scale (Lightning Value). With ISO100 film it is the same as the EV scale. EV is defined as a logarithm. Therefore the origin is EV0, not EV1. -- Lassi >> EV 0 (iso 100, 1 sec, f/1) agrees with the chart in the link Craig >> Schroeder just posted also, so I guess it's now unanimous :) >From: lassi.hippelainen@welho.organized.invalid > >Then you are all wrong... How so? I'm just reading the values off my Pentax spot meter, which has worked well for me for over a decade. If you think a reading of EV 0 doesn't equate to 1 sec at f/1 with iso 100 film then please share your thoughts on exactly what the right exposure should be. >EV is defined as a logarithm. Therefore the origin is EV0, not EV1. Not sure what you mean by 'origin' since it's just a scale and negative EV values are used for anything slower than EV 0. Could you explain what you meant, and why the table Craig linked to at http://www.chem.helsinki.fi/~toomas/photo/ev.html is wrong, and why the readings on the Pentax meter are wrong? Bill > >> EV 0 (iso 100, 1 sec, f/1) agrees with the chart in the link Craig > >> Schroeder just posted also, so I guess it's now unanimous :) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > How so? I'm just reading the values off my Pentax spot meter, which has worked > well for me for over a decade. EV0 doesn't include a specification for film speed. The meter is showing LVs, not EVs. The "sunny sixteen" rule is "daylight is about LV15". When you set the film speed to the meter, it is calibrated to show LV-at-ISO100, which has the same numbers as EV. The formulae are simple, if you can handle binary logarithms: EV = log2[f^2/T] LV = log2[f^2/T*(S/100)] = EV + log2[S/100] where f is aperture, T is time in seconds (i.e. 1/125 = 0.008) and S is speed in linear ISO. At ISO100 the latter term of LV vanishes, and you get LV = EV. Otherwise film sensitivity is a constant offset, e.g. at S = ISO400 you get LV = EV + 2 at all values of EV. This is what the speed dial in the meter compensates for, so that its scale can be labelled "EV" when it really shows LV. The sunny sixteen rule sets T/S = 1 => LV = log2[16^2/1*100] = 14.7. > If you think a reading of EV 0 doesn't equate to 1 sec at f/1 with iso 100 film > then please share your thoughts on exactly what the right exposure should be. I wasn't complaining about EV0. Quite the opposite: I explicitly mentioned why EV0 matches f = 1 and T = 1s: > >EV is defined as a logarithm. Therefore the origin is EV0, not EV1. > > Not sure what you mean by 'origin' since it's just a scale and negative EV > values are used for anything slower than EV 0. From the definitions above, at the reference point f = 1 and T = 1s => EV = log2[1] = 0. > Could you explain what you meant, and why the table Craig linked to at > http://www.chem.helsinki.fi/~toomas/photo/ev.html is wrong, and why the > readings on the Pentax meter are wrong? The table is correct. It is independent of film speed, just like EV. The text that follows the table (about meter sensitivity) would be easier to understand if it used LV. Meters measure LV, not EV. More about LV and EV: http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/ev.htm -- Lassi >From: Lassi =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hippel=E4inen?= lahippel@ieee.orgies.invalid >EV0 doesn't include a specification for film speed. The meter is showing >LVs, not EVs. The "sunny sixteen" rule is "daylight is about LV15". So you're saying all the meters marked with EV values are using the wrong terminology and it should say LV? Interesting ... >> Could you explain what you meant, and why the table Craig linked to at >> http://www.chem.helsinki.fi/~toomas/photo/ev.html is wrong, and why the >> readings on the Pentax meter are wrong? >The table is correct. It is independent of film speed, just like EV. The >text that follows the table (about meter sensitivity) would be easier to >understand if it used LV. The link also says this, which is why all of us are assuming the table numbers are NOT independent of film speed, but are for asa 100 ... "If a certain author gives no indication of film speed, and it cannot be inferred from the context, ISO 100 may usually be assumed." At least that's why I assumed the table was for ISO 100 ... >More about LV and EV: http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/ev.htm After reading this it does look like a semantics or naming issue ... I see how he's differentiating between LV and EV but in practice the meters don't use LV at all, just EV. For example he says "Some light meters, especially spot meters like the wonderful Pentax Digital Spot and analog Pentax Spotmeter V, read directly in LV. You transfer this number to a dial ..." This is the spot meter I have and the reading is clearly marked EV instead of LV. Changing the film speed doesn't change the EV, it just changes the shutter/aperture combinations. Thanks for shedding light on this, I now see what you mean when splitting EV and LV, but in practice the actual meters use EV and not LV so that's where the disagreement is. Bill > >>>ISO 100, 1sec, at f1 is EV1 is it not? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > EV 0 agrees with the chart in the link Craig Schroeder just posted also, so I > guess it's now unanimous :) It could be if you would forget about those pesky ISO values. EV numbers describe aperture-shutterspeed combinations. F/1 at 1 sec is EV 0 no matter how high or low the ISO value of the film, or the LUX value of the light present. Yes, EV values combined with ISO will indicate (if one would wish so) a particular light level, and as such can indicate the limit of a meter's sensitivity too. But that does not make ISO values (nor LUX values) part of this EV thing. So please, forget about ISO and LUX when talking about what EV is. Thanks! ;-) >> According to the scale on my Pentax spotmeter >> EV 1 @ ISO 100 is f/1 at 1/2 sec. >From: "Q.G. de Bakker" qnu@tiscali.nl > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >But that does not make ISO values (nor LUX values) part of this EV thing. So >please, forget about ISO and LUX when talking about what EV is. So what is the "aperture-shutterspeed combination" for EV 14? How can you calculate the aperture and shutter speed for a given EV without knowing the ISO? Maybe this is just semantics, but my meter reads EV values from 1 to 19++ and there's no way to use the measured EV to calculate the correct exposure without taking into account the ISO. Bill > Maybe this is just semantics, but my meter reads EV values from 1 to 19++ and > there's no way to use the measured EV to calculate the correct exposure > without taking into account the ISO. That is a point well taken. I also would like an explanation. I tried a year or so ago, when this subject came up, to factor out ISO. After reasoning it through I attempted to explain that ISO can not be factored out. Dan > > Maybe this is just semantics, but my meter reads EV values from 1 to 19++ and > > there's no way to use the measured EV to calculate the correct exposure > > without taking into account the ISO. The meter measures LV, not EV. It assumes some film speed. If you use the same speed as has been programmed in the meter, you can use the numbers as EV, otherwise you have to correct by the difference of the speeds (usually a dial in the meter). > That is a point well taken. I also would like an explanation. > I tried a year or so ago, when this subject came up, to factor out ISO. > After reasoning it through I attempted to explain that ISO can not be > factored out. Dan I tried to explain it in another branch of this thread. EV has nothing to do with film speed. It only defines camera settings, i.e. aperture and shutter combinations that let the same amount of light to the film. To estimate the density of developed film you need LV, not EV. LV includes the sensitivity of the film. The scales have been fixed so that LV = EV at ISO100. If you change to faster film, e.g. ISO400, LV rises by two steps. To get the same film density, you have to rise EV (= camera settings) by two steps, e.g. step down from f:8 to f:16. -- Lassi > That is a point well taken. I also would like an explanation. > I tried a year or so ago, when this subject came up, to factor out ISO. > After reasoning it through I attempted to explain that ISO can not be > factored out. But it is extremely simple, and easy. Forget about correct exposure and see EV for what it is: aperture and shutterspeed. The EV system is nothing more than a shorthand notation for aperture-shutterspeed combinations. EV (i.e. aperure-shutterspeed combinations) are not (!!!) combined with, nor do they involve ISO values, light levels or correct exposure. Aperture values and shutterspeeds, combined with ISO value, and the assumption that what they produce is "correct" may help calculate light levels. And knowing light levels, aperture value, shutterspeed and the assumption of correct exposure allows us to calculate the ISO of the film used. And knowing aperutre value, shutterspeed, ISO vale and light level, we can calculate whether or not corect exposure will have resulted. Etc. And that's what meter manufacturers do: they combine EV values with ISO values, and doing so tell us something about light levels their meters can handle. And metering results expressed in EV values combine ISO value with metered lightlevel to suggest the aperture-shutterspeed combination (EV value) that will produce corect exposure. All this is *combining* EV values (aperture values and shutterspeeds) with ISO values, light levels and correct exposure. EV values themselves do *not* involve either ISO values nor light levels, nor that what we like to call correct exposure. > >EV numbers describe aperture-shutterspeed combinations. > >F/1 at 1 sec is EV 0 no matter how high or low the ISO value of the film, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > So what is the "aperture-shutterspeed combination" for EV 14? f/1 at 1/16,000. And any other combination producing the same exposure. And that regardless of whether or not that exposure is "correct", what ISO value you favour, or what light level there happens to be. > How can you calculate the aperture and shutter speed for a given EV without > knowing the ISO? Because (pardon the volume) ISO VALUES ARE NOT (!!!!!!!) PART OF THE EV SYSTEM. It really is as simple as that. > Maybe this is just semantics, but my meter reads EV values from 1 to 19++ and > there's no way to use the measured EV to calculate the correct exposure without > taking into account the ISO. Sure. But you are now talking about what EV (that's one thing) will produce "correct exposure" in a given setting using a certain ISO value film (that, from "correct exposure" upto and including film, is another thing. Think of it this way. 1/125 is 1/125, no matter what ISO value or LUX value. And f/2.8 is f/2.8, again, mo matter what what ISO value or LUX value. Put the two together and you get f/2.8 and 1/125 is f/2.8 and 1/125, no matter what what ISO value or LUX value. Now f/2.8 at 1/125 is given the name EV 10 in the EV system. Why, and how, should all suddenly depend on ISO values??? It, of course, doesn't. The EV system is a shorthand notation for bunches of aperture-shutterspeed combinations that produce equivalent exposure. And, again, that regardless of whether or not that exposure is "correct", what ISO value you favour, or what light level there happens to be. |
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