Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
PhotoKB Home
Discussion Groups
Digital Photography
Digital PhotoDSLR CamerasZLR CamerasPoint & Shoot Cameras
Film Photography
35 mmLarge FormatMedium formatDarkroomFilm and LabsOther Equipment
Photo Technique
Nature PhotographyPeople PhotographyTechnique General
General Photo Topics
General TopicsAustralian PhotographyUK Photography
DirectoryPhoto Clubs

Photo Forum / Film Photography / Medium format / April 2004

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Epson 4870

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
RSD99 - 19 Apr 2004 01:05 GMT
Anybody have any real-world experience with the new Epson 4870 Scanner and either medium
format or large format negatives and/or transparencies?
David J. Littleboy - 19 Apr 2004 01:37 GMT
> Anybody have any real-world experience with the new Epson 4870 Scanner and either medium
> format or large format negatives and/or transparencies?

No, but given the price, you really don't have much choice<g>. Even the 2450
was worth the money.

I found the 2450 to be happier with (color) negatives than slides. The
people who were happiest with the 2450 were scanning 6x7 color negatives. (I
was scanning 645 slides and was not happy.)

This early 4870 page still seems to be the definitive bottom line on this
scanner.
http://www5e.biglobe.ne.jp/~longnose/scanner_test.html

There's been fairly heated discussions* of this scanner on the scanner list,
but the people with test charts found it resolving 30 lp/mm in one direction
and 40 lp/mm in the other. (All the test chart images I've seen from the
Epson scanners in this series show large differences in the x and y
direction resolutions.)

But even 30 lp/mm corresponds to an over 2100 dpi scan (since it takes
_three_, not two, pixels to render a line pair), and that's an acceptable 7x
enlargement.

I'd think that ISO 100 negative film, a GW690III, the Epson 4850, aggressive
but careful sharpening, and the Epson 2200 would make great 13x19 prints.
Worlds better than anything 35mm could even dream of.

*: My opinion is that the offset CCD that Epson uses is complete garbage and
a complete waste of time, and that these scanners barely resolve 1/2 their
advertised resolution. Others are of the opion that it's a brilliant,
mathematically justified concept perfectly capable of the full advertised
resolution. Empirical results support my interpretation<g>.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
Severi Salminen - 19 Apr 2004 09:51 GMT
> But even 30 lp/mm corresponds to an over 2100 dpi scan (since it takes
> _three_, not two, pixels to render a line pair), and that's an acceptable 7x
> enlargement.

Why and how do you need three pixels to render a line _pair_? Please
enlighten me because I got lost.

Severi S.
David J. Littleboy - 19 Apr 2004 10:36 GMT
> > But even 30 lp/mm corresponds to an over 2100 dpi scan (since it takes
> > _three_, not two, pixels to render a line pair), and that's an acceptable
> > 7x enlargement.
>
> Why and how do you need three pixels to render a line _pair_? Please
> enlighten me because I got lost.

If you only use two pixels, your error in position is on the order of 1/4
the line spacing, and if the lines slant, you get jaggies. Also, actually
implementable antialiasing filters aren't brick wall filters. The only
digital photographic systems that resolve anywhere near the Nyquist
frequency are the Sigma Foveon cameras (which don't include an antialiasing
filter), and they have nasty aliasing problems.

Check out the guitar strings, frets in the following

http://www.pbase.com/image/25418733/original

If you look at the res test charts for digital cameras, they all max out at
about 2/3 Nyquist: 3 pixels per line pair. And dcam images look just fine at
300 dpi.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
Bart van der Wolf - 19 Apr 2004 13:56 GMT
SNIP
> If you look at the res test charts for digital cameras, they all max out at
> about 2/3 Nyquist: 3 pixels per line pair.

True, but they are (or should be) deliberately Low-pass filtered to avoid
aliasing. The nature of such an Anti-Aliasing filter is different from a
lens performing a kind of Low-pass filtering. The lens, or even deliberate
defocus, results in a very gradual contrast reduction towards high spatial
frequencies, whereas an AA-filter maintains much better contrast untill it
reaches the limiting resolution.

The practical limit can be anywhere between 2 and 3 pixels/ line-pair, and
while more samples usually looks better, there is no fixed number. All we
know is that the Nyquist limit defines the threshold beyond which aliasing
will interfere with the result, and contrast can approach zero at the
threshold, depending on phase and prefiltering. Scanner CCDs also depend on
fill-factor (or spot size for drumscanners), because that will determine how
high the feature contrast will be.

Bart
David J. Littleboy - 19 Apr 2004 15:21 GMT
> The practical limit can be anywhere between 2 and 3 pixels/ line-pair, and
> while more samples usually looks better, there is no fixed number.

Yes. But for practical purposes, two pixels per line pair is a complete and
total impossibility, and 3 is quite reasonable.

> All we
> know is that the Nyquist limit defines the threshold beyond which aliasing
> will interfere with the result, and contrast can approach zero at the
> threshold, depending on phase and prefiltering.

We know a bit more than that. The Nyquist frequency only applies to
infinitely periodic sinusoidal signals, so finite square wave patterns just
slightly below the Nyquist can't be rendered. Not even close.

> Scanner CCDs also depend on
> fill-factor (or spot size for drumscanners), because that will determine how
> high the feature contrast will be.

In sampling theory, where one is trying to capture infinitely periodic
signals slightly below the Nyquist frequency, one must use point samples. So
basically, the theory in the vicinity of the Nyquist theory isn't
applicable. (Representing finite patterns involves much higher frequencies.)

So the idea that two pixels can represent a line pair is unreasonable.

And in real life, images that have information up to 2/3 the Nyquist
frequency look very good printed at 300 dpi.

So if you have a scanner that achieves a particular resolution, and you want
to know what a good target image size is, 3 pixels per line pair at 300 dpi
is a very reasonably answer.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
Bart van der Wolf - 19 Apr 2004 18:36 GMT
> > The practical limit can be anywhere between 2 and 3 pixels/ line-pair,
> > and while more samples usually looks better, there is no fixed number.
>
> Yes. But for practical purposes, two pixels per line pair is a complete and
> total impossibility, and 3 is quite reasonable.

Sure, as is 2.5 or 4. The point is, it depends...

> > All we know is that the Nyquist limit defines the threshold beyond
> > which aliasing will interfere with the result, and contrast can
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> infinitely periodic sinusoidal signals, so finite square wave patterns
> just slightly below the Nyquist can't be rendered. Not even close.

"Nyquist" or N/2 differs with sampling density. Failure to include the
higher frequency components actually creates the Gibbs phenomenon, an
overshoot that enhances edge contrast...
But we are not adding periodic sinusoidal signals of an infinitely
increasing frequency. We are sampling.

> > Scanner CCDs also depend on fill-factor (or spot size for
> > drumscanners), because that will determine how high the
> > feature contrast will be.
>
> In sampling theory, where one is trying to capture infinitely periodic
> signals slightly below the Nyquist frequency, one must use point samples.

That is not how a CCD array scans the image, each sensel samples an area. A
sensor element has a finite size, e.g. 4x4 micron, a point sample has a
*much* smaller area. An area sample can quantize  to different amplitudes
depending on the percentage of area exposed.

> So basically, the theory in the vicinity of the Nyquist theory isn't
> applicable. (Representing finite patterns involves much higher
> frequencies.)

Sorry, that isn't true, the theory is about sampling, and since we are
sampling, we cannot ever recreate the original continuous input signal.
The sampling is what causes the loss, not whether it is area or point
sampled. However, that does influence the amplitude of the frequency
component, or the shape of the MTF curve.

> So the idea that two pixels can represent a line pair is unreasonable.

Well that obviously is not true, because there is a number of different ways
(contrasts) a line pair can be represented, but you probably mean they can't
be imaged by a sampling system with *absolute* accuracy. I agree, but never
said otherwise.

The issue with the 4870 (and other staggered array sensor scanners) is that
the effective fill factor is very high, and that produces smooth edge
transitions.  This is further contrast reduced by the lens, uncoated glass
platen, and internal reflections, and we also have to presume correct
positioning in a fixed focus plane.

Bart
David J. Littleboy - 20 Apr 2004 00:11 GMT
> > > All we know is that the Nyquist limit defines the threshold beyond
> > > which aliasing will interfere with the result, and contrast can
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> higher frequency components actually creates the Gibbs phenomenon, an
> overshoot that enhances edge contrast...

AKA "ringing".

> But we are not adding periodic sinusoidal signals of an infinitely
> increasing frequency. We are sampling.

Actually, we're not. We're talking about reasonable expectations for how
many pixels it takes to represent a line pair in a digital image created by
downsampling a grossly soft scan.

> > > Scanner CCDs also depend on fill-factor (or spot size for
> > > drumscanners), because that will determine how high the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> That is not how a CCD array scans the image, each sensel samples an area.

Exactly. Scanning doesn't come anywhere near meeting the conditions required
for the Nyquist theorem to apply. And digital images themselves don't
either, since patterns are usually a single line or just a few cycles.

> A
> sensor element has a finite size, e.g. 4x4 micron, a point sample has a
> *much* smaller area. An area sample can quantize  to different amplitudes
> depending on the percentage of area exposed.

And thus can't accurately render frequencies near the Nyquist frequency.

> > So basically, the theory in the vicinity of the Nyquist theory isn't
> > applicable. (Representing finite patterns involves much higher
> > frequencies.)
>
> Sorry, that isn't true, the theory is about sampling, and since we are
> sampling, we cannot ever recreate the original continuous input signal.

Huh? The above is quite true. Nyquist claims you can, under certain
conditions, accurately record frequencies up to but not including the
Nyquist frequency. Actual sampling in scanners doesn't meet the criterion of
the Nyquist theorem.

> The sampling is what causes the loss, not whether it is area or point
> sampled.

No, Nyquist says you can accurately reconstruct frequencies up to but not
including the Nyquist as long as you point sample.

> However, that does influence the amplitude of the frequency
> component, or the shape of the MTF curve.

And where it goes to zero<g>.

> > So the idea that two pixels can represent a line pair is unreasonable.
>
> Well that obviously is not true,

Sorry: "So the idea that two pixels can _correctly_ represent an arbitrarily
positioned line pair is unreasonable."

Happier?

> because there is a number of different ways
> (contrasts) a line pair can be represented, but you probably mean they can't
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> platen, and internal reflections, and we also have to presume correct
> positioning in a fixed focus plane.

I don't care what the issues are: given the actual performance of the beast,
I want to know what's a good target resolution to downsample to.

David J. Littleboy
davidjl@gol.com
Tokyo, Japan
Bart van der Wolf - 20 Apr 2004 18:57 GMT
SNIP
> We're talking about reasonable expectations for how many
> pixels it takes to represent a line pair in a digital image created
> by downsampling a grossly soft scan.

That would depend on:
1. The amount of sharpening before scaling down, if any, and
2. the resampling method and amount used for scaling down, and
3. the sharpening needed to compensate for resampling losses.

A scan of a theoretically perfect image can be mimicked by scanning a 5
degree slanted sharp edge, somewhat similar to the principle used by the ISO
to determine scanner resolution. A home made solution is by mounting a razor
blade in a 35mm slide mount. Another way is by mounting a piece of
aluminum/aluminium foil, folded once to form a straight edge and flattened
with careful pressure. The slant will reduce the differences between more or
less perfect alignment with the sensor array.

That will produce a target that is not yet blurred by a camera lens, so only
the scanner can introduce deterioration. After scanning you'll also notice
the amount of lens flare and internal reflection caused by the scanner
(surround the slide mount with a full glass platen mask for best results on
a flatbed scanner). Try and avoid blooming due to overexposure of the
unobstructed view of the lightsource. Then you can draw several across edge
luminance profiles (try two 90 degrees rotated scans to have both a sensor
and a stepper motor resolution) and count the number of pixels it takes e.g.
between 90% of maximum Luminance and 10% above minimum Luminance close to
the edge on the Raw gamma 1.0 data.

Try several sharpening radii with a modest amount to see which helps to
improve the steepnes of the transition, and use that for the above step 1.
Then use a resampling method that makes sense for the intended image
content, using an amount to reduce the number of transition pixels to
between two and three. Finally, sharpen to compensate for resampling losses.
That should give the best quality, and largest possible uncompromised scan
size your scanner can produce.

Applying the same steps to a film scan should also produce good quality, but
one may want to deviate a bit based on film characteristics and intended
use. If e.g. one finally needs to enlarge again for output, then why reduce
size first, and if the final image needs to be reduced further then it is
better not to resample twice. Final sharpening should be based on final
output size.

Testing the performance as described above will give a good feeling what is
needed to approach the best possible 10%-90% Luminance difference transition
width in a real image. Lower image contrasts will only lose visible contrast
faster, but the width of the transition is never larger.

As an example, my Epson 2450 @ 2400 ppi takes 10 pixels to cross the edge,
and after USM Amount 30, Radius 3.0, Threshold 0, that is reduced to 5.
Reducing that Image size to 50% gives me a 2-3 pixel transition which can be
further small radius sharpened to exaggerate the edge transition for a
visually pleasing result. A bit more sharpening in the beginning is also
possible.
In fact these settings increased the resolution from 31.5 cy/mm to 50.1
cy/mm on a sample of Fuji RA film I had scanned long ago, allowing a pretty
decent 5-6x enlargement of the film.

Bart
Lassi =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hippel=E4inen?= - 19 Apr 2004 10:41 GMT
> > But even 30 lp/mm corresponds to an over 2100 dpi scan (since it takes
> > _three_, not two, pixels to render a line pair), and that's an acceptable
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Severi S.

If you sample with two dots per line pair, and have bad luck, the dots
will be: -
1. 50% white + 50% black = grey
2. 50% black + 50% white = grey
3. 50% white + 50% black = grey
4. 50% black + 50% white = grey
5. 50% white + 50% black = grey
6. 50% black + 50% white = grey
etc...

In other words, if you want to be sure that you capture the full
contrast range, you have to sample at FOUR dots per line pair, and even
then half of the pixels may be "mixels".

Three dots per line pair is a compromise. It assumes that the target is
from real life, and not a test chart.

-- Lassi
Bart van der Wolf - 19 Apr 2004 12:29 GMT
> > But even 30 lp/mm corresponds to an over 2100 dpi scan (since it takes
> > _three_, not two, pixels to render a line pair), and that's an acceptable
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Why and how do you need three pixels to render a line _pair_? Please
> enlighten me because I got lost.

If it is based on http://clarkvision.com/imagedetail/sampling1.html , then I
don't agree, and it is also not entirely what that page says. In fact the
conclusion by the author of that page is: "The conclusion is 2 to 3 pixels
per cycle at the Dawes limit records close to all the detail in the image,
but 2 pixels per cycle at the Rayleigh limit is pretty close".

The part of the experiment I find debatable is, that the lower PPI scans
seem to be made with a much smaller sensor fill factor, which influences the
modulation and makes the pixel pattern jump in position depending on phase.
Skipping samples is not(!) the same as comparing scanner resolutions which
differ in (decent fill factor) sampling density. Point sampling is decidedly
different from area sampling, I hope so much is understood.

To minimize artifacts, scanning with a CCD based scanner should be performed
at the optical resolution, if need be followed by a decent(!) down-sampling
algorithm. For the best results that should be followed by post processing
sharpening to restore some of the contrast at the limiting resolution. That,
by the way, is much less likely to generate new artifacts due to the diffuse
lighting of e.g. the 4870 combined with the low pass filtering of its lens.

Bart
Simon - 23 Apr 2004 17:50 GMT
...
> *: My opinion is that the offset CCD that Epson uses is complete garbage and
> a complete waste of time, and that these scanners barely resolve 1/2 their
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> David J. Littleboy
> Tokyo, Japan

I'm with you on this one - trying scans at different resolutions I
didn't
really see any improvement going from 1600 to 3200 dpi. But for 6x6
medium
format on up to A3 paper, 1600's about enough to give a 300 dpi print,
so
fine for me. Anything larger I'd have to get printed the old fashioned
way
anyway!

Simon.
- - 19 Apr 2004 01:39 GMT
If you are looking for a group of users, try here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/epson4870/

Signature

Doug's "MF Film Holder" for batch scanning "strips" of 120/220 medium format
film:
http://home.earthlink.net/~dougfisher/holder/mfholderintro.html

RSD99 - 20 Apr 2004 19:39 GMT
Thanks to everyone who replied.

> Anybody have any real-world experience with the new Epson 4870 Scanner and either medium
> format or large format negatives and/or transparencies?
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2008 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.