Photo Forum / Film Photography / Medium format / April 2004
Epson 4870
|
|
Thread rating:  |
RSD99 - 19 Apr 2004 01:05 GMT Anybody have any real-world experience with the new Epson 4870 Scanner and either medium format or large format negatives and/or transparencies?
David J. Littleboy - 19 Apr 2004 01:37 GMT > Anybody have any real-world experience with the new Epson 4870 Scanner and either medium > format or large format negatives and/or transparencies? No, but given the price, you really don't have much choice<g>. Even the 2450 was worth the money.
I found the 2450 to be happier with (color) negatives than slides. The people who were happiest with the 2450 were scanning 6x7 color negatives. (I was scanning 645 slides and was not happy.)
This early 4870 page still seems to be the definitive bottom line on this scanner. http://www5e.biglobe.ne.jp/~longnose/scanner_test.html
There's been fairly heated discussions* of this scanner on the scanner list, but the people with test charts found it resolving 30 lp/mm in one direction and 40 lp/mm in the other. (All the test chart images I've seen from the Epson scanners in this series show large differences in the x and y direction resolutions.)
But even 30 lp/mm corresponds to an over 2100 dpi scan (since it takes _three_, not two, pixels to render a line pair), and that's an acceptable 7x enlargement.
I'd think that ISO 100 negative film, a GW690III, the Epson 4850, aggressive but careful sharpening, and the Epson 2200 would make great 13x19 prints. Worlds better than anything 35mm could even dream of.
*: My opinion is that the offset CCD that Epson uses is complete garbage and a complete waste of time, and that these scanners barely resolve 1/2 their advertised resolution. Others are of the opion that it's a brilliant, mathematically justified concept perfectly capable of the full advertised resolution. Empirical results support my interpretation<g>.
David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan
Severi Salminen - 19 Apr 2004 09:51 GMT > But even 30 lp/mm corresponds to an over 2100 dpi scan (since it takes > _three_, not two, pixels to render a line pair), and that's an acceptable 7x > enlargement. Why and how do you need three pixels to render a line _pair_? Please enlighten me because I got lost.
Severi S.
David J. Littleboy - 19 Apr 2004 10:36 GMT > > But even 30 lp/mm corresponds to an over 2100 dpi scan (since it takes > > _three_, not two, pixels to render a line pair), and that's an acceptable > > 7x enlargement. > > Why and how do you need three pixels to render a line _pair_? Please > enlighten me because I got lost. If you only use two pixels, your error in position is on the order of 1/4 the line spacing, and if the lines slant, you get jaggies. Also, actually implementable antialiasing filters aren't brick wall filters. The only digital photographic systems that resolve anywhere near the Nyquist frequency are the Sigma Foveon cameras (which don't include an antialiasing filter), and they have nasty aliasing problems.
Check out the guitar strings, frets in the following
http://www.pbase.com/image/25418733/original
If you look at the res test charts for digital cameras, they all max out at about 2/3 Nyquist: 3 pixels per line pair. And dcam images look just fine at 300 dpi.
David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan
Bart van der Wolf - 19 Apr 2004 13:56 GMT SNIP
> If you look at the res test charts for digital cameras, they all max out at > about 2/3 Nyquist: 3 pixels per line pair. True, but they are (or should be) deliberately Low-pass filtered to avoid aliasing. The nature of such an Anti-Aliasing filter is different from a lens performing a kind of Low-pass filtering. The lens, or even deliberate defocus, results in a very gradual contrast reduction towards high spatial frequencies, whereas an AA-filter maintains much better contrast untill it reaches the limiting resolution.
The practical limit can be anywhere between 2 and 3 pixels/ line-pair, and while more samples usually looks better, there is no fixed number. All we know is that the Nyquist limit defines the threshold beyond which aliasing will interfere with the result, and contrast can approach zero at the threshold, depending on phase and prefiltering. Scanner CCDs also depend on fill-factor (or spot size for drumscanners), because that will determine how high the feature contrast will be.
Bart
David J. Littleboy - 19 Apr 2004 15:21 GMT > The practical limit can be anywhere between 2 and 3 pixels/ line-pair, and > while more samples usually looks better, there is no fixed number. Yes. But for practical purposes, two pixels per line pair is a complete and total impossibility, and 3 is quite reasonable.
> All we > know is that the Nyquist limit defines the threshold beyond which aliasing > will interfere with the result, and contrast can approach zero at the > threshold, depending on phase and prefiltering. We know a bit more than that. The Nyquist frequency only applies to infinitely periodic sinusoidal signals, so finite square wave patterns just slightly below the Nyquist can't be rendered. Not even close.
> Scanner CCDs also depend on > fill-factor (or spot size for drumscanners), because that will determine how > high the feature contrast will be. In sampling theory, where one is trying to capture infinitely periodic signals slightly below the Nyquist frequency, one must use point samples. So basically, the theory in the vicinity of the Nyquist theory isn't applicable. (Representing finite patterns involves much higher frequencies.)
So the idea that two pixels can represent a line pair is unreasonable.
And in real life, images that have information up to 2/3 the Nyquist frequency look very good printed at 300 dpi.
So if you have a scanner that achieves a particular resolution, and you want to know what a good target image size is, 3 pixels per line pair at 300 dpi is a very reasonably answer.
David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan
Bart van der Wolf - 19 Apr 2004 18:36 GMT > > The practical limit can be anywhere between 2 and 3 pixels/ line-pair, > > and while more samples usually looks better, there is no fixed number. > > Yes. But for practical purposes, two pixels per line pair is a complete and > total impossibility, and 3 is quite reasonable. Sure, as is 2.5 or 4. The point is, it depends...
> > All we know is that the Nyquist limit defines the threshold beyond > > which aliasing will interfere with the result, and contrast can [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > infinitely periodic sinusoidal signals, so finite square wave patterns > just slightly below the Nyquist can't be rendered. Not even close. "Nyquist" or N/2 differs with sampling density. Failure to include the higher frequency components actually creates the Gibbs phenomenon, an overshoot that enhances edge contrast... But we are not adding periodic sinusoidal signals of an infinitely increasing frequency. We are sampling.
> > Scanner CCDs also depend on fill-factor (or spot size for > > drumscanners), because that will determine how high the > > feature contrast will be. > > In sampling theory, where one is trying to capture infinitely periodic > signals slightly below the Nyquist frequency, one must use point samples. That is not how a CCD array scans the image, each sensel samples an area. A sensor element has a finite size, e.g. 4x4 micron, a point sample has a *much* smaller area. An area sample can quantize to different amplitudes depending on the percentage of area exposed.
> So basically, the theory in the vicinity of the Nyquist theory isn't > applicable. (Representing finite patterns involves much higher > frequencies.) Sorry, that isn't true, the theory is about sampling, and since we are sampling, we cannot ever recreate the original continuous input signal. The sampling is what causes the loss, not whether it is area or point sampled. However, that does influence the amplitude of the frequency component, or the shape of the MTF curve.
> So the idea that two pixels can represent a line pair is unreasonable. Well that obviously is not true, because there is a number of different ways (contrasts) a line pair can be represented, but you probably mean they can't be imaged by a sampling system with *absolute* accuracy. I agree, but never said otherwise.
The issue with the 4870 (and other staggered array sensor scanners) is that the effective fill factor is very high, and that produces smooth edge transitions. This is further contrast reduced by the lens, uncoated glass platen, and internal reflections, and we also have to presume correct positioning in a fixed focus plane.
Bart
David J. Littleboy - 20 Apr 2004 00:11 GMT > > > All we know is that the Nyquist limit defines the threshold beyond > > > which aliasing will interfere with the result, and contrast can [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > higher frequency components actually creates the Gibbs phenomenon, an > overshoot that enhances edge contrast... AKA "ringing".
> But we are not adding periodic sinusoidal signals of an infinitely > increasing frequency. We are sampling. Actually, we're not. We're talking about reasonable expectations for how many pixels it takes to represent a line pair in a digital image created by downsampling a grossly soft scan.
> > > Scanner CCDs also depend on fill-factor (or spot size for > > > drumscanners), because that will determine how high the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > That is not how a CCD array scans the image, each sensel samples an area. Exactly. Scanning doesn't come anywhere near meeting the conditions required for the Nyquist theorem to apply. And digital images themselves don't either, since patterns are usually a single line or just a few cycles.
> A > sensor element has a finite size, e.g. 4x4 micron, a point sample has a > *much* smaller area. An area sample can quantize to different amplitudes > depending on the percentage of area exposed. And thus can't accurately render frequencies near the Nyquist frequency.
> > So basically, the theory in the vicinity of the Nyquist theory isn't > > applicable. (Representing finite patterns involves much higher > > frequencies.) > > Sorry, that isn't true, the theory is about sampling, and since we are > sampling, we cannot ever recreate the original continuous input signal. Huh? The above is quite true. Nyquist claims you can, under certain conditions, accurately record frequencies up to but not including the Nyquist frequency. Actual sampling in scanners doesn't meet the criterion of the Nyquist theorem.
> The sampling is what causes the loss, not whether it is area or point > sampled. No, Nyquist says you can accurately reconstruct frequencies up to but not including the Nyquist as long as you point sample.
> However, that does influence the amplitude of the frequency > component, or the shape of the MTF curve. And where it goes to zero<g>.
> > So the idea that two pixels can represent a line pair is unreasonable. > > Well that obviously is not true, Sorry: "So the idea that two pixels can _correctly_ represent an arbitrarily positioned line pair is unreasonable."
Happier?
> because there is a number of different ways > (contrasts) a line pair can be represented, but you probably mean they can't [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > platen, and internal reflections, and we also have to presume correct > positioning in a fixed focus plane. I don't care what the issues are: given the actual performance of the beast, I want to know what's a good target resolution to downsample to.
David J. Littleboy davidjl@gol.com Tokyo, Japan
Bart van der Wolf - 20 Apr 2004 18:57 GMT SNIP
> We're talking about reasonable expectations for how many > pixels it takes to represent a line pair in a digital image created > by downsampling a grossly soft scan. That would depend on: 1. The amount of sharpening before scaling down, if any, and 2. the resampling method and amount used for scaling down, and 3. the sharpening needed to compensate for resampling losses.
A scan of a theoretically perfect image can be mimicked by scanning a 5 degree slanted sharp edge, somewhat similar to the principle used by the ISO to determine scanner resolution. A home made solution is by mounting a razor blade in a 35mm slide mount. Another way is by mounting a piece of aluminum/aluminium foil, folded once to form a straight edge and flattened with careful pressure. The slant will reduce the differences between more or less perfect alignment with the sensor array.
That will produce a target that is not yet blurred by a camera lens, so only the scanner can introduce deterioration. After scanning you'll also notice the amount of lens flare and internal reflection caused by the scanner (surround the slide mount with a full glass platen mask for best results on a flatbed scanner). Try and avoid blooming due to overexposure of the unobstructed view of the lightsource. Then you can draw several across edge luminance profiles (try two 90 degrees rotated scans to have both a sensor and a stepper motor resolution) and count the number of pixels it takes e.g. between 90% of maximum Luminance and 10% above minimum Luminance close to the edge on the Raw gamma 1.0 data.
Try several sharpening radii with a modest amount to see which helps to improve the steepnes of the transition, and use that for the above step 1. Then use a resampling method that makes sense for the intended image content, using an amount to reduce the number of transition pixels to between two and three. Finally, sharpen to compensate for resampling losses. That should give the best quality, and largest possible uncompromised scan size your scanner can produce.
Applying the same steps to a film scan should also produce good quality, but one may want to deviate a bit based on film characteristics and intended use. If e.g. one finally needs to enlarge again for output, then why reduce size first, and if the final image needs to be reduced further then it is better not to resample twice. Final sharpening should be based on final output size.
Testing the performance as described above will give a good feeling what is needed to approach the best possible 10%-90% Luminance difference transition width in a real image. Lower image contrasts will only lose visible contrast faster, but the width of the transition is never larger.
As an example, my Epson 2450 @ 2400 ppi takes 10 pixels to cross the edge, and after USM Amount 30, Radius 3.0, Threshold 0, that is reduced to 5. Reducing that Image size to 50% gives me a 2-3 pixel transition which can be further small radius sharpened to exaggerate the edge transition for a visually pleasing result. A bit more sharpening in the beginning is also possible. In fact these settings increased the resolution from 31.5 cy/mm to 50.1 cy/mm on a sample of Fuji RA film I had scanned long ago, allowing a pretty decent 5-6x enlargement of the film.
Bart
Lassi =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hippel=E4inen?= - 19 Apr 2004 10:41 GMT > > But even 30 lp/mm corresponds to an over 2100 dpi scan (since it takes > > _three_, not two, pixels to render a line pair), and that's an acceptable [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Severi S. If you sample with two dots per line pair, and have bad luck, the dots will be: - 1. 50% white + 50% black = grey 2. 50% black + 50% white = grey 3. 50% white + 50% black = grey 4. 50% black + 50% white = grey 5. 50% white + 50% black = grey 6. 50% black + 50% white = grey etc...
In other words, if you want to be sure that you capture the full contrast range, you have to sample at FOUR dots per line pair, and even then half of the pixels may be "mixels".
Three dots per line pair is a compromise. It assumes that the target is from real life, and not a test chart.
-- Lassi
Bart van der Wolf - 19 Apr 2004 12:29 GMT > > But even 30 lp/mm corresponds to an over 2100 dpi scan (since it takes > > _three_, not two, pixels to render a line pair), and that's an acceptable [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Why and how do you need three pixels to render a line _pair_? Please > enlighten me because I got lost. If it is based on http://clarkvision.com/imagedetail/sampling1.html , then I don't agree, and it is also not entirely what that page says. In fact the conclusion by the author of that page is: "The conclusion is 2 to 3 pixels per cycle at the Dawes limit records close to all the detail in the image, but 2 pixels per cycle at the Rayleigh limit is pretty close".
The part of the experiment I find debatable is, that the lower PPI scans seem to be made with a much smaller sensor fill factor, which influences the modulation and makes the pixel pattern jump in position depending on phase. Skipping samples is not(!) the same as comparing scanner resolutions which differ in (decent fill factor) sampling density. Point sampling is decidedly different from area sampling, I hope so much is understood.
To minimize artifacts, scanning with a CCD based scanner should be performed at the optical resolution, if need be followed by a decent(!) down-sampling algorithm. For the best results that should be followed by post processing sharpening to restore some of the contrast at the limiting resolution. That, by the way, is much less likely to generate new artifacts due to the diffuse lighting of e.g. the 4870 combined with the low pass filtering of its lens.
Bart
Simon - 23 Apr 2004 17:50 GMT ...
> *: My opinion is that the offset CCD that Epson uses is complete garbage and > a complete waste of time, and that these scanners barely resolve 1/2 their [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > David J. Littleboy > Tokyo, Japan I'm with you on this one - trying scans at different resolutions I didn't really see any improvement going from 1600 to 3200 dpi. But for 6x6 medium format on up to A3 paper, 1600's about enough to give a 300 dpi print, so fine for me. Anything larger I'd have to get printed the old fashioned way anyway!
Simon.
- - 19 Apr 2004 01:39 GMT If you are looking for a group of users, try here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/epson4870/
 Signature Doug's "MF Film Holder" for batch scanning "strips" of 120/220 medium format film: http://home.earthlink.net/~dougfisher/holder/mfholderintro.html
RSD99 - 20 Apr 2004 19:39 GMT Thanks to everyone who replied.
> Anybody have any real-world experience with the new Epson 4870 Scanner and either medium > format or large format negatives and/or transparencies?
|
|
|