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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Medium format / February 2004Machinist in the house?
This is not quite OT. From the Repair Filter thread it is clear that many of you have machine-shop experience. I have made a prototype camera using wood (cherry) and would like to make the next protoype in a material that is more stable, stronger and can be cut and shaped using woodworking tools. If you can nudge me in the right direction, offline if it is appropriate, I would be quite greatful. > This is not quite OT. From the Repair Filter thread it is clear that many > of you have machine-shop experience. I have made a prototype camera using > wood (cherry) and would like to make the next protoype in a material that > is more stable, stronger and can be cut and shaped using woodworking > tools. If you can nudge me in the right direction, offline if it is > appropriate, I would be quite greatful. http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?page=32045&category=1,43455,43831&ccurren cy=1&SID= Now when they say it machines just like wood do they mean soft pine or the worst tropical wood? I think the stuff is fairly common and you should be able to find it. Nick http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?page=32045&category=1,43455,43831&ccurren cy=1&SID= > Now when they say it machines just like wood do they mean soft pine or the > worst tropical wood? I think the stuff is fairly common and you should be > able to find it. Thanks, Nick. I did not find that in my search. In return I will share the folllowing link, although it gives me more choices than I know what to do with. http://www.plastic-materials.com/ Two of the sources are right here in Minnesota. Yes, as you suggested, some wood is very hard. If it cuts like Cherry I would be happy. If it cuts like Ebony, I'd be as well off using steel. Thank you again. UMHW is translucent so probably not suitable for camera bodies unless you paint it after you make it. For something totally different you could make a body out of black Corian. ABS also comes to mind. -- darkroommike ---------- http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?page=32045&category=1,43455,43831&ccu rrency=1&SID= > > Now when they say it machines just like wood do they mean soft pine or the > > worst tropical wood? I think the stuff is fairly common and you should be [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Thank you again. > UMHW is translucent so probably not suitable for camera bodies unless you > paint it after you make it. > > For something totally different you could make a body out of black Corian. > > ABS also comes to mind. This camera has no body. ON Sat, 14 Feb 2004 10:44:11 -0600, john@xyzzy.stafford.net (jjs) WROTE: >Yes, as you suggested, some wood is very hard. If it cuts like Cherry I >would be happy. If it cuts like Ebony, I'd be as well off using steel. > >Thank you again. I see you have experienced the effect ebony has on woodworking tools. > This is not quite OT. From the Repair Filter thread it is clear that many > of you have machine-shop experience. I have made a prototype camera using > wood (cherry) and would like to make the next protoype in a material that > is more stable, stronger and can be cut and shaped using woodworking > tools. If you can nudge me in the right direction, offline if it is > appropriate, I would be quite greatful. Medium format? or sheet film? Toyo makes plastic view and field cameras; quite reasonable in price, relatively. Now a focal plane shutter with a real flapping mirror would be interesting. > Medium format? or sheet film? Toyo makes plastic view and field cameras; > quite reasonable in price, relatively. Now a focal plane shutter with a real > flapping mirror would be interesting. LF - 4x5 sheet film, and this camera has an unconventional design so I see no cluses by looking to what has been made. This camera is not even similar to anything already made. For example, there are no flat parts as in a box-type camera. No lens board, no movements, either, and it is very heavy so I really do need to use something other than wood. how about the cambo passport camera case and 4x5" back? take off the 4 lens front and septa, and you have a plastic 4x5" shell with back, simply mount your lens in front. D. Fletcher mounted a 65mm super angulon on it; is this for your monster 75mm biogon? ;-0) see photos of Dirk's wide cambo at http://medfmt.8k.com/mf/homebrew.html HTH bobm  Signature*********************************************************************** * Robert Monaghan POB 752182 Southern Methodist Univ. Dallas Tx 75275 * ********************Standard Disclaimers Apply************************* > how about the cambo passport camera case and 4x5" back? take off the 4 > lens front and septa, and you have a plastic 4x5" shell with back, simply > mount your lens in front. I appreciate the tip, Bob, but that's far from the design objective of this particular camera. I saw this: http://members.aol.com/dkfletcher/widecamera.jpg but that idea doesn't work with my lens, which is much too large to be supported by a lens board. You also recall the 4x5 WA I built several years ago at http://WIND.WINONA.EDU/~stafford/sandwich-4x5 which is similar to your idea, but won't work. (Say, would you mind taking that page and putting it on your server instead of just linking to it? I am losing my server any day now.) Some time ago I posted a rejected design here: http://wind.winona.edu/~stafford/WA-75.JPG That's a modified Printex 4x5 body. A bad idea. Rejected. The body is totally unneccessary in this project for a number of good reasons. EEEeeek!! I will backup that page, with credits to you of course, on the MF megasite. Let me know of any other pages which can/should be archived too! I would _really_ hate to see such great and inspiring homebrewing pages to be lost or not available... ============ Actually, Roger Hicks in an article in Brit. Jrnl of Photogr. some years ago (reprinted in his MF/LF handbook IIRC?) described a LF fisheye using the kiev 30mm lens as the optic and a thin body with leaf shutter and mounting for ground glass or film 4x5" holders. I like the idea, esp. since you should be able to dismount the lens when needed on say a Kiev 60 ;-) Much as I like the Walker Titan design ideas, the cost at $2k or so is problematic ;-) The cambo wide body only is still $1k. Since I am intending to use a surplus 90mm angulon ($100-ish in shutter ;-), it doesn't make sense to mount it on a body costing ten or twenty times as much ;-) Esp. since I don't need those shifting features ;-) But I would like something where a rollfilm back is an option (hence, on topic in MF NG). I still find it amazing that postcard folders of 100 years ago had front lens standard shifts etc. and covered 3+x5 1/2" rollfilm, folded into a jacket pocket; yet today, we can't find anything close ;-) and ;-( ;-) bobm Signature*********************************************************************** * Robert Monaghan POB 752182 Southern Methodist Univ. Dallas Tx 75275 * ********************Standard Disclaimers Apply************************* <...> > Actually, Roger Hicks in an article in Brit. Jrnl of Photogr. some years > ago (reprinted in his MF/LF handbook IIRC?) described a LF fisheye using > the kiev 30mm lens as the optic and a thin body with leaf shutter and > mounting for ground glass or film 4x5" holders. I like the idea, esp. > since you should be able to dismount the lens when needed on say a Kiev 60 > ;-) Such a hack was reported with pictures in the Finnish Kamera-lehti magazine. Essentially it was just a wooden box with 4x5" lens panel and film holder. Makes nice round images. One of the tricks was to mount the shutter backwards inside the camera, and use a cable release to trip it. -- Lassi Nifty trick, thanks for the tip ;-) ;-) That makes sense. I am afraid I will be doing some more projects this summer, so this might be one of them. I have a large surplus shutter and a set of P6 extension tubes that might be modified for an interchangeable mount ;-) speaking of circular images, I have to wonder how wide some of the simpler lenses (17mm disposable optic on a 35mm film camera) are with acceptable on film performance? Again, this project could be a good test bed for such tests too ;-) I suspect a number of full frame fisheyes (kiev?) would do surprisingly well on 6x6cm square for a circular fisheye effect, perhaps the older sigma 12mm fisheye I have would also be possible? The trick here would be a mounting for a camera back mated to a shutter and lens mount. Or perhaps a neutral density filter and use of dropping dark slide as a shutter? Or my modified Harris shutter (mf/tricolor.html) in which the gravity dropped slit shutter gives various speeds depending on the length of the opening cut in the dropping paper slit? ;-) Lots cheaper than a big leaf shutter and less machining too ;-) grins bobm Signature*********************************************************************** * Robert Monaghan POB 752182 Southern Methodist Univ. Dallas Tx 75275 * ********************Standard Disclaimers Apply************************* Delrin or nylon...you can buy sheets from MSC-Direct.com > This is not quite OT. From the Repair Filter thread it is clear that many > of you have machine-shop experience. I have made a prototype camera using > wood (cherry) and would like to make the next protoype in a material that > is more stable, stronger and can be cut and shaped using woodworking > tools. If you can nudge me in the right direction, offline if it is > appropriate, I would be quite greatful. > Delrin or nylon...you can buy sheets from MSC-Direct.com Thanks, George. I have a lot to learn of these materials, so I'll start with what has been recommended and study up. Thank you, all! > Delrin or nylon...you can buy sheets from MSC-Direct.com George, Since the original post asked for a material that is more stable than cherry, I wonder about the high thermal expansion of Delrin and nylon. No questions that you suggstions are close to wood in machinability. They are also several times higher in expansion than most wood and metal, and some plastics (nylon for sure) absorb a lot of moisture. The requirements were pretty loosely stated for sure. Any thoughts? PSsquare > > Delrin or nylon...you can buy sheets from MSC-Direct.com > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > plastics (nylon for sure) absorb a lot of moisture. The requirements were > pretty loosely stated for sure. Any thoughts? Nylon absorbs a lot of moisture? See how ignorant I am. I thought plastics and nylon were virtually impervious to water. Monday I will go to our university materials research library and study up so that I don't have to pester you all. The requirements are: to be stronger than cherrywood, as easy to cut as wood (even if it's harder to cut than cherry). It must be able to stand up to direct sunlight in hot weather without weakening (or weaping) and also stand up to temperatures of -20F with no greater possiblity of snapping than cherry. Dimensional changes due to moisture - well, no worse than cherry. Weight is not an issue. > The requirements are: to be stronger than cherrywood, as easy to cut as > wood (even if it's harder to cut than cherry). It must be able to stand up > to direct sunlight in hot weather without weakening (or weaping) and also > stand up to temperatures of -20F with no greater possiblity of snapping > than cherry. Dimensional changes due to moisture - well, no worse than > cherry. Weight is not an issue. Maple. David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan Maple is NOT very dimensionally stable...if you don't believe me, you are hereby invited to come see the &#!@ maple floors in my house and how they shrink and expand with the seasons (and they are over a heated basement AND I even added a whole house humidifier to try to stabilize these things). > > The requirements are: to be stronger than cherrywood, as easy to cut as > > wood (even if it's harder to cut than cherry). It must be able to stand up [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > David J. Littleboy > Tokyo, Japan > Maple is NOT very dimensionally stable...if you don't believe me, you are > hereby invited to come see the &#!@ maple floors in my house and how they > shrink and expand with the seasons (and they are over a heated basement AND > I even added a whole house humidifier to try to stabilize these things). It's a lot better than spruce, which is why it's the material of choice for structural components of violins and guitars and the like. David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan > > Maple is NOT very dimensionally stable...if you don't believe me, you are > > hereby invited to come see the &#!@ maple floors in my house and how they [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > It's a lot better than spruce, which is why it's the material of choice for > structural components of violins and guitars and the like. Surprise for you, David. Spruce (a rather broad category) can be a good violin wood. It all depends upon how it was aged. Ever heard of the bonanza better than a gold mine we have in the Mississippi river? Wood, including spruce, that has been underwater for fifty to 100 years. Violin makers are crying for the stuff. > > > Maple is NOT very dimensionally stable...if you don't believe me, you are > > > hereby invited to come see the &#!@ maple floors in my house and how they [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Surprise for you, No surprise at all: I grew up in a violing repair shop. (Really) There's a Dutch violin made in 1795 sitting right here, although it's the Gibson L5 that gets played nowadays. > David. Spruce (a rather broad category) can be a good > violin wood. It's used for the acoustically active members of both violins and guitars. Note that I said _structural_ components for maple. It's the spruce soundboards on violins, violas, and especially cellos that get trashed by New England central heating, repair bills on which put me through college. > It all depends upon how it was aged. Ever heard of the > bonanza better than a gold mine we have in the Mississippi river? Wood, > including spruce, that has been underwater for fifty to 100 years. Violin > makers are crying for the stuff. Yes. Apparently some percentage of logs sink, so rivers which had extensive logging in their environs tend to have underwater wood of interest especially to furniture makers. David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan Nope, that isn't why it is chosen. It is chosen for its strength and hardness (in the case of hard maples like sugar maple)...many woods are more stable dimensionally than maple and for the surfaces producing the sound in wooden instruments you will see woods like Sitka spruce, mahogany, etc. > It's a lot better than spruce, which is why it's the material of choice for > structural components of violins and guitars and the like. > > David J. Littleboy > Tokyo, Japan > Nope, that isn't why it is chosen. It is chosen for its strength and > hardness (in the case of hard maples like sugar maple)...many woods are more > stable dimensionally than maple and for the surfaces producing the sound in > wooden instruments you will see woods like Sitka spruce, mahogany, etc. Read David Littleboy's post carefully. He said "the structural components" meaning the stressed portions such as the neck, bridge, and maybe the ridges and soundpost, and he's right. My error...hard maple would be excellent for structural components. I do use it to build shop jigs and such as it also holds up very well and is quite hard. > Read David Littleboy's post carefully. He said "the structural components" > meaning the stressed portions such as the neck, bridge, and maybe the ridges > and soundpost, and he's right. > The requirements are: to be stronger than cherrywood, as easy to cut as > wood (even if it's harder to cut than cherry). It must be able to stand up > to direct sunlight in hot weather without weakening (or weaping) and also > stand up to temperatures of -20F with no greater possiblity of snapping > than cherry. Dimensional changes due to moisture - well, no worse than > cherry. Weight is not an issue. Fiberglassing makes wood impervious to moisture. They use that in exterior hulls of ocean going vessels. I'm guessing, but that seems to be pretty extreme duty. Sea kayaks are made from 1/8" cedar strips, glassed inside and out. Maybe a combination of fiberglassed wood and machined plastics for the mating surfaces. Or just plain fiberglass on carved foam cores... > Fiberglassing makes wood impervious to moisture. They use that in exterior > hulls of ocean going vessels. I'm guessing, but that seems to be pretty > extreme duty. Sea kayaks are made from 1/8" cedar strips, glassed inside and > out. Maybe a combination of fiberglassed wood and machined plastics for the > mating surfaces. Or just plain fiberglass on carved foam cores... I appreciate the thought, Mike. Glass hulled ocean kayaks, yes. Love 'em. Good ones have an ideal combination of wood and glass. We have some kevlar, composites, wooden and glass boats here. This is the home of Winona Canoe. :) (Winona, Minnesota) My colleague's brother is the founder and owner. Composites rule. Back to the cameras - It uses relatively small parts, and fiberglass in this case is a huge nuisance to cut, and not strong on thin part edges. I, talked with our composites material engineer and they have nothing mass produced (eg; affordable) that works in this scale for prototyping. If this were a NASA project, I'd certainly have learned more and would have heard "make it so", but for my small, amateur needs, the correct composites are a dream. Thanks for the good words. There are so many types of nylon that one of the glass stabilized ones or delrin should suffice. Remember, whatever the camera is subjected to, the FILM has to survive as well and film emulsion is by far the most fragile material I can think of in this chain of materials... > > Delrin or nylon...you can buy sheets from MSC-Direct.com > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > PSsquare > George, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > PSsquare PSsquare, I am not aware of any polymer absorbing any appreciable amount of moisture, especially not more than wood (though some, like Corian, will absorb enough to stain on the surface). But, the OP can allay any fears in that I believe MSC-direct lists the engineering properties of most of the materials they sell (if they don't, it isn't hard to find them). Also, to put my answer into proper perspective for the OP, I am an amateur machinist and an amateur woodworker. By profession, I am an electrical engineer which means that in my distant past I've had materials courses but it really hasn't come up for professional use much (though I did use Delrin in a test application that involved heat and it performed well). George > If you can nudge me in the right direction, offline if it is > appropriate, I would be quite greatful. You mentioned that your camera hardly has any flat surfaces. So I think it will take numerical controlled (NC or CNC) machines to manufacture your design. There are quite a few machine shops which do not manufacture any devices but only components for other companies, and they will be happy to receive such an order because it will bring them some money. Manufacturing components on CNC equipment usually starts on several hundred USD/EUR, with no upper limit. Among engineers, there is a saying that 'gold plating a prototype does not add much to its cost'. However, I would suggest to consult the yellow pages of the next major city. Winfried > > If you can nudge me in the right direction, offline if it is > > appropriate, I would be quite greatful. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > and they will be happy to receive such an order because it will bring > them some money. [...] Yes, CNC shops are common. Unfortunately, I am going to make all of _two_ (maybe three) of these cameras and having a comercial shop make the parts would be hugely expensive. In any event, I'm still in the advanced prototype stage and can cut the parts at home until/if it proofs out. It may never make it past the hand-cut stage. FWIW, check out these folks: http://www.emachineshop.com Very cool business. They have made things for me that I've designed using their software. But in that case we were talking about dozens of copies of each item, not two of each. > > john@xyzzy.stafford.net (jjs) wrote in message > news:<john-1402040934480001@m-0-135.docsis.hbci.com>... [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > their software. But in that case we were talking about dozens of copies of > each item, not two of each. John, Thanks for that link! I've been looking for an effective way to prototype something I've been working on and it looks like this company may well be exactly what I need. Very cool. Sherman http://www.dunnamphoto.com > > FWIW, check out these folks: http://www.emachineshop.com > > Very cool business. They have made things for me that I've designed using [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > exactly what I need. > Very cool. The entrepeneur is a very good programmer and machinist. The software is updated regularly and gets better every couple of weeks. If I may suggest that you put together a quick version of a part and run it through to the pricing stage. When you see the cost of one part (say, $120), then check the cost of 20 parts. Chances are good the total for the 20 parts is as little as $150. That's CNC. :) I love it when the software interrupts and says things like "If you reduce the number of splines, you will save money" or "you have two different sized holes. Make them the same and you will save money" or "You have exceeded the recommended span for this material. Try..." > > > FWIW, check out these folks: http://www.emachineshop.com > > > Very cool business. They have made things for me that I've designed using [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > sized holes. Make them the same and you will save money" or "You have > exceeded the recommended span for this material. Try..." This stuff is very cool! I've been working in TurboCad for this project but I like this software better, easier to use, plus as you said it has "suggestions" from time to time. When I get the base part into this software I'll do as you suggest and price singly and in a small volume run. Thanks again, Sherman http://www.dunnamphoto.com > This stuff is very cool! [...] If you like that, then check out the Rapid Prototyping area, and this site: http://www.quickparts.com/ >This is not quite OT. From the Repair Filter thread it is clear that many >of you have machine-shop experience. I have made a prototype camera using >wood (cherry) and would like to make the next protoype in a material that >is more stable, stronger and can be cut and shaped using woodworking >tools. If you can nudge me in the right direction, offline if it is >appropriate, I would be quite greatful. You might post this in the rec.woodworking group. they know a lot about wood. I haven't played with cherry, so I can't comment on how different woods would compare. Some of the posters were talking about using fiberglass. I would suggest trying a penetrating epoxy, such as the west Systems Epoxy. I have used it on some projects and been satisfied with the results. Signature- Charles - -does not play well with others > You might post this in the rec.woodworking group. they know a lot > about wood. I haven't played with cherry, so I can't comment on how > different woods would compare. I use cherry all the time, and I like it but this is a prototype of something that will finally be made in a stainless steel. Wood is not strong enough for the design I am trying to show. The thing collapses. I'm about to cave in and change the whole thing. I should have married a rich machinist. :0 >> You might post this in the rec.woodworking group. they know a lot >> about wood. I haven't played with cherry, so I can't comment on how [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >about to cave in and change the whole thing. I should have married a rich >machinist. :0 Then rec.crafts.metalworking? If you made a model of your project, or the parts thereof, someone there might be able to cast it in aluminum/brass/bronze. A casting then shouldn't require too much machining to achieve the finish you need for the prototype. Signature- Charles - -does not play well with others JJ, I haven't been following this thread closely, but if you need strength and toughness with light weight, you might look at a carbon fiber/kevlar/S-glass composite sandwich... Go to the Experimental Aircraft Association (w3.eaa.org) website and peruse their book store for books on composites... We custom aircraft builders tend to be at the leading edge of technology... You can buy prepreg materials and do your own vacuum bag curing over a handmade wood form, and get shapes that are difficult and expensive to produce in stainless... If my comments have been covered or are off base, ignore me as usual... denny "jjs" <john@xyzzy.stafford.net> wrote in message > n a stainless steel. Wood is not > strong enough for the design I am trying to show. > JJ, I haven't been following this thread closely, but if you need strength > and toughness with light weight, you might look at a carbon > fiber/kevlar/S-glass composite sandwich... Go to the Experimental Aircraft > Association (w3.eaa.org) website and peruse their book store for books on > composites... We custom aircraft builders tend to be at the leading edge of > technology... Hi, Dennis. I addressed composties, CF included earlier. FWIW, I live in a composites research and applications area. Contact me offline if you like. |
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