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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Medium format / January 2004Pentax Spotmeter/Zone System
I have a good understanding of "The Zone System" though I've never really put it to use. I want to change that though and that's why I'm looking at spot meters! I'll probably get either the Pentax digital meter, or their analog model. There are several listed on eBay and a couple of them were described as having a "Zone VI" modification; what exactly does this mean? How does this differ from just buying the stick-on "Zone Dials"? I couldn't find any mention of a modification on Pentax's web site, nor do any of the on-line camera stores mention it; is this some kind of a 3rd party modification and is it worth the few extra dollars? Thanks all, for my continuing education!  SignatureRay www.rayspace.com/gallery.html ------------------------------------------- "I'd rather wake up in the middle of nowhere, than in any city on earth" - Steve McQueen > I have a good understanding of "The Zone System" though I've never really > put it to use. I want to change that though and that's why I'm looking at [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Thanks all, for my continuing education! Calumet Photo (who purchased Zone VI Studios, the originator of the modified Pentax and Soligors) recently stopped selling the modified Pentax spot meters (they still sell the stock ones). They are NOT modified by Pentax. The person who supposedly did the mods for Calumet is Richard Ritter, a former Zone VI employee. http://www.lg4mat.net/index.html He may be able to do a mod if you really want one. The mods included using a better sensor and improved the baffles to eliminate flare. But over the years, Pentax has improved their meters, and according to some who have compared a modified meter with a stock meter, there is no real difference anymore. Calumet still sells some Zone Dials for $3.00 for some models. The Zone Dial does not mean it is modified, it just makes it easy to see the difference between Zone V (where most meters are calibrated) and the other zones without doing any math in your head. Some people make their own dials. Go to the Calumet photo web site and you can see the dials. > Calumet still sells some Zone Dials for $3.00 for some models. The Zone Dial > does not mean it is modified, it just makes it easy to see the difference > between Zone V (where most meters are calibrated) and the other zones > without doing any math in your head. Some people make their own dials. Go to > the Calumet photo web site and you can see the dials. They sell dials for the analog spotmeters the last time I checked, and a strip label for Soligor meters. Does anyone know if the Soligor strip will work OK on the Pentax digital spotmeter? > > Calumet still sells some Zone Dials for $3.00 for some models. The Zone > Dial [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > strip label for Soligor meters. Does anyone know if the Soligor strip will > work OK on the Pentax digital spotmeter? I would do a google search, including the newsgroup archives at google. Some people have made their own dials and posted links. I don't know much about the barrel of the Pentax digital, and whether there is room for a dial (I have a Soligor), but if there is you could make one very easy. > I would do a google search, including the newsgroup archives at google. Some > people have made their own dials and posted links. I don't know much about > the barrel of the Pentax digital, and whether there is room for a dial (I > have a Soligor), but if there is you could make one very easy. Exactly. You'd just cover the IRE scale with a zone scale. The Pentax digital* has four scales (and an ISO setting) on it. The one furthest to the back is an IRE scale (for movie work, I think), and that scale has the pointer for the next scale (the EV scale), which is where you enter the number displayed in the viewfinder. One could cover the 4 mm wide IRE scale with a zone scale (with marks 5.5 mm or so apart) very easily. (The other two are f stop and shutter speed.) Unfortunately, the EV scale is only visible for +/- 2.66 stops on either side of the reading (that is, once you've set the EV scale to the reading). So a zone scale wouldn't be all that useful for B&W work. Sigh. *: It's one of the most radical examples of KISS design in the history of photographic equipment, and I love it. The other spot meters have a lot more bells and whistles. David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan > > I would do a google search, including the newsgroup archives at google. > Some [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > David J. Littleboy > Tokyo, Japan I have the Soligor digital spot, which is even simpler, and there is plenty of room for a 10 stop Zone Dial. > > Unfortunately, the EV scale is only visible for +/- 2.66 stops on either > > side of the reading (that is, once you've set the EV scale to the > reading). Could you explain this further? There is a seven stop visible range displayed on the Zone VI Studios scale. For example, if I set an EV reading of 7 on Zone V of the scale I can see on what zone every EV from 4 to 10 will fall (i.e. I can see Zones II to VIII and tell on which of those zones every EV from 4 to 10 will fall). From that I can also tell on what other zones all other EVs will fall on. For example, with EV 7 set at Zone V I can see that a reading of 10 will fall on Zone VIII. If I get a reading of 11 for something in the scene I know that it will fall on Zone IX even though I can't see Zone IX on the scale. > > So a zone scale wouldn't be all that useful for B&W work. Sigh. I thought that zone system work with black and white film was the principal purpose for which the meter and scale are used. That's what I use it for and that's what everyone else I've met who has the meter uses if for (not that I've met everyone who owns the meter of course but I've met quite a few though attending various workshops). It would seem odd to produce a zone system scale that can't be used with black and white film since so many people who use the zone system use it with black and white film. > > > I would do a google search, including the newsgroup archives at google. > > Some [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > I have the Soligor digital spot, which is even simpler, and there is plenty > of room for a 10 stop Zone Dial. > > > Unfortunately, the EV scale is only visible for +/- 2.66 stops on either > > > side of the reading (that is, once you've set the EV scale to the > > reading). > > Could you explain this further? The EV scale window only extends +/- 2.66 stops on either side of the center point: after that the scale is hidden. The third stop from the center is hidden. > There is a seven stop visible range > displayed on the Zone VI Studios scale. For example, if I set an EV reading > of 7 on Zone V of the scale I can see on what zone every EV from 4 to 10 > will fall (i.e. I can see Zones II to VIII and tell on which of those zones > every EV from 4 to 10 will fall). I see what's happening here. (Finally, sorry.) I can see that much too. It's what we computer nerds call a "fencepost error". I'm looking at the span: 10 - 4 = 6, but you are counting from 4 to 10 and finding that you got 7 fingers<g>. > > > So a zone scale wouldn't be all that useful for B&W work. Sigh. > > I thought that zone system work with black and white film was the principal > purpose for which the meter and scale are used. Yes. What I meant was that zone system folks use 9 stops, but you can barely see 7 stops (and I was only seeing 6). You're right that only one stop is missing at each end. > That's what I use it for > and that's what everyone else I've met who has the meter uses if for (not > that I've met everyone who owns the meter of course but I've met quite a few > though attending various workshops). It would seem odd to produce a zone > system scale that can't be used with black and white film since so many > people who use the zone system use it with black and white film. I use mine for color slide film. I'm only doing zone exposure, not zone system things. David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan David J. Littleboy wrote in part: I'm looking at the span: > 10 - 4 = 6, but you are counting from 4 to 10 and finding that you got 7 > fingers<g>. I knew I wasn't good at math but I didn't realize that I actually have 7 fingers. Every time I count I keep getting five. But I'll check it again. : - ) Thanks for the explanation. > > > > Unfortunately, the EV scale is only visible for +/- 2.66 stops on > either [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > David J. Littleboy > Tokyo, Japan > I would do a google search, including the newsgroup archives at google. Some > people have made their own dials and posted links. I don't know much about > the barrel of the Pentax digital, and whether there is room for a dial (I > have a Soligor), but if there is you could make one very easy. I wrote Mr. Ritter (of Zone VI fame). He pointed me to a suitable document with printable zone dials; informed me that he cannot perform new conversions but can repair existing ones; and noted that recalibration is $50. : I have a good understanding of "The Zone System" though I've never really : put it to use. I want to change that though and that's why I'm looking at : spot : meters! : I'll probably get either the Pentax digital meter, or their analog model. : There are several listed on eBay and a couple of them were described as : having a "Zone VI" modification; what exactly does this mean? How does this : differ from just buying the stick-on "Zone Dials"? : I couldn't find any mention of a modification on Pentax's web site, nor do : any of the on-line : camera stores mention it; is this some kind of a 3rd party modification and : is it worth the few extra dollars? : Thanks all, for my continuing education! The Zone VI modifications are done by Calumet Camera (they bought Zone VI a while ago) so you're not going to see mention of it on the Pentax site. One of the things they do is add a zone scale. I heard that they do some filtering of the light to make it more accurate for zone system use. I don't know that for a fact though. I know a couple of people that use the modified meter and the love it. SignatureKeep working millions on welfare depend on you ------------------- fwp@deepthought.com > The Zone VI modifications are done by Calumet Camera (they bought Zone VI a while > ago) so you're not going to see mention of it on the Pentax site. One of the things > they do is add a zone scale. I heard that they do some filtering of the light to make > it more accurate for zone system use. I don't know that for a fact though. > > I know a couple of people that use the modified meter and the love it. Calumet no longer sells the modified meters. I believe that Richard Ritter did the mods (and ex Zone VI employee). He is at: http://www.lg4mat.net/index.html At one time they replaced the sensor and made it more accurate for B&W work. Films and technology has changed in the last 20 years, and my guess is that Pentax has upgraded the electronic components over time. The dial is nice, but you can get one for $3.00 or make your own. When the dial first was introduced by Zone VI about 20 years ago, no one had personal computers that could do that. Although a zone scale was added when the modificaitons were done, it didn't really have any particular connection with the modification and as others noted you can (or could before Calumet wrecked Zone VI Studios) buy the scale for a couple dollars without having the modifications done.. Here is what the modifications consisted of according to the old Zone VI Studios catalog: Installation of superior photo electric cells. Installation of a series of step down baffles to eliminate flare. Installation of a broad spectrum infrared absorbent coating to eliminate reflections. Installation of four corrective filters. The infrared, ultraviolet and visual range packs are required to match the meter's spectral response to the spectral repsonse of the film. The filter packs are not replacements, no existing meter ocntains any corrective filtration. Design and construction of tools and test equipment with which the meter can be calibrated to 1/6 stop of linearity over its range. This is all from a sales catalong. Whether the modifications actually achieved all of these things is open to some debate I think. I've had the modifiied meter for many years and have liked it fine but I suspect the meter would also be fine without the modifications. > : I have a good understanding of "The Zone System" though I've never really > : put it to use. I want to change that though and that's why I'm looking at [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > I know a couple of people that use the modified meter and the love it. > Although a zone scale was added when the modificaitons were done, it didn't > really have any particular connection with the modification and as others [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > modifiied meter for many years and have liked it fine but I suspect the > meter would also be fine without the modifications. I believe those things had some benefit in the early 1980's when the modified meters were introduced by Zone VI. The state of electronic circuits has come a long way since then, and I suspect that Pentax made some improvements. I also suspect that they looked at the Zone VI mods and may have implemented some of them in the production camera. Some films have also changed in their spectral response, especially if you use TMAX. >"Mark A" ma@switchboard.net >I believe those things had some benefit in the early 1980's when the >modified meters were introduced by Zone VI. The state of electronic circuits >has come a long way since then, and I suspect that Pentax made some >improvements. I also suspect that they looked at the Zone VI mods and may >have implemented some of them in the production camera. Some films have also >changed in their spectral response, especially if you use TMAX. Does anyone really know if Pentax has modified/upgraded their basic spotmeters over the years. What the changes were and when they were done? This information would be very interesting to those looking for a used meter. Chuck > >I believe those things had some benefit in the early 1980's when the > >modified meters were introduced by Zone VI. The state of electronic circuits [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > information would be very interesting to those looking for a used meter. > Chuck Yes, probably some current or former employees at Pentax Japan know, but I don't think they follow this forum. It is obvious that the electronic components, especially IC's and light sensors, have changed in the last 20 years. >"Mark A" ma@switchboard.net >Yes, probably some current or former employees at Pentax Japan know, but I >don't think they follow this forum. It is obvious that the electronic >components, especially IC's and light sensors, have changed in the last 20 >years. But it isn't obvious that Pentax changed anything. They may be just using the same common parts for all meters. It fact it makes sense not to change anything because a redesign costs money. And it doesn't seem like they have ever advertised any "improvements". Chuck > >Yes, probably some current or former employees at Pentax Japan know, but I > >don't think they follow this forum. It is obvious that the electronic [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > ever advertised any "improvements". > Chuck The electronic parts that were around 20-25 years ago have all undergone improvements. They are generally more precise and more reliable. That includes the light sensors. But it is not likely that Pentax uses the exact same circuit design, since newer IC's require much less labor to install, and are more reliable, than using individual piece components. But I suspect that just the improvement in light sensors is enough to make a difference. I guess that it is possible that the they did not change other aspects of the meter (aside from using better electronic parts that are now available), even though the Japanese are famous for continuous improvement. But I am not suggesting that all the Zone VI enhancements are incorporated into the Pentax meters. Some changes may be inappropriate, since films have changed over the years in the way they respond to light, especially TMAX films (compared to non-TMAX films). Not all films respond exactly the same, so this can never be perfect. I have seen evidence posted on forums of people comparing a newer unmodified Pentax digital meter with a Calumet VI modified one, and the differences were very small, probably within the sample deviation of comparing two production models. I don't remember if that was posted here or on photo.net. > and are more reliable, than using individual piece components. But I suspect > that just the improvement in light sensors is enough to make a difference. Did they also change the EV range on the meters? That would be useful, although 0 to 20 is still plenty for me. I have an unmodified one. Maybe response in the shadows could be better. And pointing near the sun washes out the optics to where I can't read the display. I get around that by not pointing it toward the sun. :-) > Did they also change the EV range on the meters? That would be useful, > although 0 to 20 is still plenty for me. I have an unmodified one. Maybe > response in the shadows could be better. And pointing near the sun washes > out the optics to where I can't read the display. I get around that by not > pointing it toward the sun. :-) If you have an old one, and want to know about the Zone VI/Calumet mods, contact Richard Ritter who is the one who performed the work. His website was posted earlier in this newsgroup (a few days ago). If you want to know how yours stacks up against a new unmodified Pentax, take it to a photo store and compare it. > I have a good understanding of "The Zone System" though I've never really > put it to use. I want to change that though and that's why I'm looking at [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Thanks all, for my continuing education! In case someone here did not know, Pentax has discontinued the production of their spot meters, both analog and digital. This has been confirmed by both Pentax and B&H. As matter of fact, these meters are no longer listed on the B&H website. |
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