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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Medium format / December 2003

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"Wide Angle" vs "Normal" lenses

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steven.sawyer@banet.net - 18 Dec 2003 23:54 GMT
What if you took a 55mm "wide angle" lens for MF and attached it to a
35mm camera to use as a "normal" lens, would there be any appreciable
difference in performance when compared to a 50mm "normal" lens made for
35mm?
Thanks
JackD - 19 Dec 2003 00:22 GMT
You might get less contrast because there might be more light bouncing
around in there, but the lens doesn't care what it is focusing on.

-Jack

> What if you took a 55mm "wide angle" lens for MF and attached it to a
> 35mm camera to use as a "normal" lens, would there be any appreciable
> difference in performance when compared to a 50mm "normal" lens made for
> 35mm?
> Thanks
Jeff Sumner - 19 Dec 2003 00:47 GMT
> What if you took a 55mm "wide angle" lens for MF and attached it to a
> 35mm camera to use as a "normal" lens, would there be any appreciable
> difference in performance when compared to a 50mm "normal" lens made for
> 35mm?
> Thanks

Medium Format lenses usually trade some resolution for coverage, or make
other compromises for the requrements of the format.

Otherwise, it'd probably be a slow 55mm lens, if you weren't expecting
16x20 enlargements from the Amateur Format film.
Rafe B. - 19 Dec 2003 01:43 GMT
>> What if you took a 55mm "wide angle" lens for MF and attached it to a
>> 35mm camera to use as a "normal" lens, would there be any appreciable
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Medium Format lenses usually trade some resolution for coverage, or make
>other compromises for the requrements of the format.

That would seem logical but I've been incredibly
impressed with the normal lenses on both my
Pentax 645 and Mamiya 645.  At center frame,
they seem to match the best results I've gotten
with Nikkor optics on 35 mm.

rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com
Q.G. de Bakker - 20 Dec 2003 12:10 GMT
> Medium Format lenses usually trade some resolution for coverage, or make
> other compromises for the requrements of the format.

That's what you think... ;-)

But seriously, it depends on what lenses you are comparing,. You will no
doubt be able to find an excellent 35 mm format lens that is better than a
crappy MF lens, but only by "stretching" your "usually" quite a bit will
your statement be true.
As long as you avoid the obvious one element plastic Holga-like lenses, MF
lenses are easily as good as 35 mm format lenses. There is indeed a price to
pay for having lenses that perform as well and cover a larger format. That
price you pay in cash, not in performance.
stacey - 20 Dec 2003 21:37 GMT
>> Medium Format lenses usually trade some resolution for coverage, or make
>> other compromises for the requrements of the format.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> crappy MF lens, but only by "stretching" your "usually" quite a bit will
> your statement be true.

 And even "crappy" lenses for MF are sharp in the center 35mm size part of
the frame..
Signature


 Stacey

Jeff Sumner - 20 Dec 2003 22:08 GMT
> > Medium Format lenses usually trade some resolution for coverage, or make
> > other compromises for the requrements of the format.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> pay for having lenses that perform as well and cover a larger format. That
> price you pay in cash, not in performance.

I disagree- don't have to stretch the usually much at all.

http://medfmt.8k.com/mf/resolution.html

35mm lenses *tend* to have better resolution at their central peak.

But then again, there are those that'll quibble about everything.

Blue!
Bob Monaghan - 21 Dec 2003 03:28 GMT
see http://medfmt.8k.com/mf/mfbest.html study by Harris using techpan:
35mm - pentax 50mm f/2.8 macro f/8   14X       16x20
hassy 80mm f/2.8 T* planar @ f/16    12X       27x27
Wista w. 210 f/5.6 Symmar S @ f/22    9.2X     37x46"

in other words, at optimal corner sharpness f/stops, 35mm could be
enlarged 14X while MF only got 12X and LF even less, 9.2X

the key point there is the corner sharpness was limiting, so we can't tell
if the central 35mm area from a 6x6cm shot would be higher by this data
alone.

However, we also know the hassy 80mm f/2.8 (F) was 67 lpmm central for 53
lpmm edge in Modern Photo July 1980 p. 112 tests; the charts were
different, so the numbers don't match, but we can infer the MF lenses also
have a higher central resolution by a factor of 67/53 or 26% higher. They
only have to be 1/6th or 16.7% higher in the 35mm crop margins. So it
might even be better by 26%-16.7% or 9%+ ;-)

So it is a good bet that a medium format lens like the hassy 80mm can
deliver a 35mm sized image which is as enlargeable (14X) as the macro
pentax 50mm lens (as both are limited by corner rather than central
resolution when making enlargements sharp "corner to corner" ;-)).

The central resolution of the typical 50mm normal lenses, among the better
performers of 35mm SLR lenses, does exceed the 67 lpmm at f/8 noted for
the hassy 80mm lens (which hit 75 lpmm center and 47 lpmm corner at f/5.6
or 67/60 lpmm at f/11 and f/16 ;-) see
http://medfmt.8k.com/mf/hassylenses.html for chart of 3 lenses & 80mm data
see http://medfmt.8k.com/third/variations.html for charts tests on your
lenses ;-)

So the answer seems to be:

a) a crop from MF enlarged to 6x6cm is as enlargeable as that from 35mm,
with corner sharpness being the limiting factor in both cases (maybe even
more by up to 9%?)

b) the 35mm will probably have a higher central resolution peak in many
lenses. However, the contax 645af lenses (mf/contax645.html for lens
charts) peak at over 80 lpmm centrally on 80mm, an example of a lens
optimized for central resolution in MF (but only 40 lpmm in edges, so less
enlargeable and less "balanced" than the hassy zeiss lenses ;-)

c) the real loser was LF, because of that 9.2X factor, we increase film
size at 4x5" on limiting axis vs MF by 78%, but we only got 45% bigger
axis enlargements. Again, the problem is maintaining corner resolution
quality, and we could probably find (expensive) LF lenses which can match
MF lenses in a 6x6cm crop too ;0-)

grins bobm

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***********************************************************************
* Robert Monaghan POB 752182 Southern Methodist Univ. Dallas Tx 75275 *
********************Standard Disclaimers Apply*************************

stacey - 21 Dec 2003 05:57 GMT
> So the answer seems to be:
>
> a) a crop from MF enlarged to 6x6cm is as enlargeable as that from 35mm,
> with corner sharpness being the limiting factor in both cases (maybe even
> more by up to 9%?)

I've printed 8X10's from a 35mm sized crop from my fuji 65mm 6X9 (and wasn't
even from the ceneter!) and it looks as good as any other 35mm shot if not
better. See below link for some lens tests of medformat cameras.

http://www.hevanet.com/cperez/MF_testing.html

Signature


 Stacey

Thom - 22 Dec 2003 04:33 GMT
>> What if you took a 55mm "wide angle" lens for MF and attached it to a
>> 35mm camera to use as a "normal" lens, would there be any appreciable
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Medium Format lenses usually trade some resolution for coverage, or make
>other compromises for the requrements of the format.

However you would be working from the sharpest part of the MF lens,
the center.  A good case in point is the 500mm Lens from Kiev for
their 6c6 cameras.  Attach it to a 35mm and your doing better than a
35mm 500mm mirror.

THOM

THOM

>Otherwise, it'd probably be a slow 55mm lens, if you weren't expecting
>16x20 enlargements from the Amateur Format film.
Bowser - 19 Dec 2003 01:54 GMT
If you own a Pentax 645 and a Pentax 35 SLR, you can find out. They sell an
adapter that allows you to mount the 645 lenses on some of their 35mm SLRs.

I doubt you'd see a difference.

> What if you took a 55mm "wide angle" lens for MF and attached it to a
> 35mm camera to use as a "normal" lens, would there be any appreciable
> difference in performance when compared to a 50mm "normal" lens made for
> 35mm?
> Thanks
Mr 645 - 19 Dec 2003 02:03 GMT
The 55mm MF lens would be about the same as the 35mm 50mm lens.  The smaller
format lenses typically have higher resolution then the larger format optics.  
http://www.jonlayephotography.com
Wilt W - 19 Dec 2003 04:07 GMT
I agree with the other posts that larger format lenses generally trade image
area covered for less resolution (line pairs per mm)
Dan Fromm - 19 Dec 2003 12:53 GMT
> I agree with the other posts that larger format lenses generally trade image
> area covered for less resolution (line pairs per mm)

38/4.5 Biogon, anyone?
Bertrand Collet - 19 Dec 2003 17:47 GMT
> I agree with the other posts that larger format lenses generally trade image
> area covered for less resolution (line pairs per mm)

But maybe we gain on quality because in 35 mm only a central portion of the
huge MF optic will be used, where usually the quality is best. So I would be
tempted to say that optical quality will be increased on the corners.
Am I right ?
Bertrand
stacey - 20 Dec 2003 05:27 GMT
>> I agree with the other posts that larger format lenses generally trade
> image
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> would be tempted to say that optical quality will be increased on the
> corners. Am I right ?

Good point.

The only negative issue I'd see that may affect quality would be flare from
the larger lens elements and coverage. Almost all medformat lenses are
really sharp in the center even wide open. It's the corners that improve
when you stop down the lens.
Signature


 Stacey

Thom - 22 Dec 2003 04:33 GMT
>What if you took a 55mm "wide angle" lens for MF and attached it to a
>35mm camera to use as a "normal" lens, would there be any appreciable
>difference in performance when compared to a 50mm "normal" lens made for
>35mm?
>Thanks

50 or 55mm is not normal for 35mm, 43mm is.

THOM
jjs - 22 Dec 2003 04:14 GMT
> >What if you took a 55mm "wide angle" lens for MF and attached it to a
> >35mm camera to use as a "normal" lens, would there be any appreciable
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> 50 or 55mm is not normal for 35mm, 43mm is.

50mm is normal by one definition. The diagonal rule is not steadfast. When
finding the "normal" for purposes of comparisons between two formats with
different aspect ratios, to get the appropriate perspectives you must
normalize the two, so the formula for 35mm is: sqrt((36^2)*2). (Note the
use of the word normal-ize is particularly appropos, similar to the way
one normalizes values to plot within a given format.)

Try it with 6x6 (in which the real dimension is 58x58), and others. If
it's hard to imagine, then think of a 212mm x 56mm panoramic and a 212mm
square camera.
Thom - 23 Dec 2003 03:28 GMT
>> >What if you took a 55mm "wide angle" lens for MF and attached it to a
>> >35mm camera to use as a "normal" lens, would there be any appreciable
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>it's hard to imagine, then think of a 212mm x 56mm panoramic and a 212mm
>square camera.

Theres more to it than that and thats the foregraound to background
ration.  To compare a 35mm to a 6x6 you have to take the IDEAL
dimension (1:1.25) ratio.  That means the 35mm is 24x30mm's and the
6x6 is 57x45.6.  This means that to get the same foreground/background
magnification, a 35mm "normal" lens is 38.4mm and a 6x6 is 72.99mm.

A 55mm lens on a 35mm camera is then equal to a 104.5mm on a 6x6.

THOM
stacey - 23 Dec 2003 06:08 GMT
>>What if you took a 55mm "wide angle" lens for MF and attached it to a
>>35mm camera to use as a "normal" lens, would there be any appreciable
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> 50 or 55mm is not normal for 35mm, 43mm is.

Try looking through a prism with the other eye open using a 50mm and a 40mm
and see which looks more 'normal'.

Signature


 Stacey

David J. Littleboy - 23 Dec 2003 07:13 GMT
> Try looking through a prism with the other eye open using a 50mm and a 40mm
> and see which looks more 'normal'.

That's because the magnification of the viewfinder was designed to produce
that result.

What it means to be a "normal" lens is a much harder question than that.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
Lassi =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hippel=E4inen?= - 23 Dec 2003 07:31 GMT
> >>What if you took a 55mm "wide angle" lens for MF and attached it to a
> >>35mm camera to use as a "normal" lens, would there be any appreciable
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Try looking through a prism with the other eye open using a 50mm and a 40mm
> and see which looks more 'normal'.

It will depend on the magnification of the viewfinder...

"Normal" for 35mm cameras is generally defined as the range from 40 to
60 mm. There is no exact value.

-- Lassi
Mxsmanic - 23 Dec 2003 07:51 GMT
> What if you took a 55mm "wide angle" lens for MF and attached it to a
> 35mm camera to use as a "normal" lens, would there be any appreciable
> difference in performance when compared to a 50mm "normal" lens made for
> 35mm?

Probably not.  The 35mm frame would use only the center of the field of
the MF lens, which is good, but MF lenses don't always achieve the
resolution of 35mm lenses, which is bad.  So it's a wash overall, and
certainly not worth the effort to adapt the lens.  It's best to use
lenses designed for the format you have in mind.

Signature

Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

Roland - 24 Dec 2003 09:39 GMT
> What if you took a 55mm "wide angle" lens for MF and attached it to a
> 35mm camera to use as a "normal" lens, would there be any appreciable
> difference in performance when compared to a 50mm "normal" lens made for
> 35mm?
> Thanks

Nearly everybody on this newsgroup has answered this so I will as well.

You won't get any coupling between the MF lens and the 35mm camera unless
you had a adapter specially made for the purpose, if it exists. It might not
exist.

The main problem will be the resolution of the MF lens. This will be worse
in the centre, if you look hard for it,  although you might not see any
difference at the edges. Another problem will be flare. I'll explain...

A 55mm lens for MF will be a very different design than a 50mm lens for 35mm
because the MF lens is designed to give a flat image over a much greater
area. The image must be sharp and evenly illuminated across a width of 6cm
rather than the 3.6cm for 35mm. To achieve this, the design must be
fundamentally different. A 50mm 35mm format lens will only just cover the
area it is supposed to and even then will show some darkening at the corners
on the wider apertures. This becomes logical when you look through the back
of the camera. If you look "out" of the lens from the corner of the film
plane you will see this vignetting in the form of the lens being obscured by
the housing in front of it. Light from that extreme angle will have
spherical distortion and so the lens designers deliberately cut out this
light in a physical way so it does not fall on the film plane and blur the
image. But your 55mm MF lens will be designed in such a way as to accept
light from these extreme angles and still keep it sharp over the area it is
supposed to cover. It will be a "wide angle lens" in the sense that it can
focus light from these extreme angles, even though fitted to a 35mm format
camera it appears to have the same focal length (or nearly so) as a standard
lens. Typically such a lens will have a bulging from element that focuses
the light in to an element close behind that sort of gathers in all the
light in a short distance and then passes the light through to the back of
the lens where it gets sort of spread out again and focussed on the film
plane. They are an ingenious design and if you look through the back of the
camera at the corners of the film plane and out through the lens then you
will see that the aperture circle sort of bends in your direction. This is
to get the same light intensity (or nearly so) at the corners. So the MF
lens is very different. It will have more elements in it, most likely, and
will be a lot more expensive to make. And the more complex the design with
these extra elements then the more the resolution will be compromised. You
will get less resolution in the centre of the image in terms of the number
of line pairs per millimetre that can be resolved, compared to the standard
lens for the 35mm format. But on the other hand, since the MF lens gives a
larger coverage then it will still be producing a similar sort of resolution
at the edges of the 35mm film plane whereas the standard lens for the 35mm
format will not be. So the MF lens won't resolve as well in the centre but
might be just as good as the standard lens or even better in the corners and
with no vignetting as well.

But then there is the problem with flare. If you fit one of these lenses
onto the front of a 35mm camera then you have got to bear in mind that there
will be a lot of light surrounding the film area because this lens was
designed to give a greater coverage. This light will need to be very
effectively blocked out or absorbed otherwise it will show up as fogging or
lack of contrast on the film as some light leaks out and falls on the film.

So it is not recommended.
 
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