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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Medium format / December 2006Color vision
(Rafe - why I bow out on Color challenges) Over the past few years I've had several occasions where my color perception was questioned, usually by people at least half my age (and most stridently by our Asian artists.) Yesterday I really blew a graphics job because I mismatched a subtle hue. The critic/designer was a brilliant young woman. I passed the job to another person to look at and they agreed. I blew it. That marks a transition period in my career. Bummer. BUT I can pass all the color-blind tests, and the Rudolf Arnheim challenges, and I have more acute low-light sensitivity than any of them (as evinced in part by finding light leaks in our darkrooms that nobody found before). Old age? Diet? Or are people growing up with a more sensitive concern for color than my generation (born in the first half of the previous century.) > (Rafe - why I bow out on Color challenges) > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Old age? Diet? Or are people growing up with a more sensitive concern for > color than my generation (born in the first half of the previous century.) No need to judge the print(s) by color accuracy alone. OTOH, one can consider overall contrast, depth, tonal gradations, subtle detail, resolution, sharpness, lack of artifacts, etc. Oh, yes, it can be subjective.... 99% of what I shoot are outdoor landscapes by natural light. I've never considered "accurate color" to be the end-all. Rather, the color needs to be pleasing, and believable. rafe b www.terrapinphoto.com > 99% of what I shoot are outdoor landscapes by natural > light. I've never considered "accurate color" to be the > end-all. Rather, the color needs to be pleasing, and > believable. :) Understood. But you don't have artists, publishers and directors scrutinizing your day job work. Or do you? > 99% of what I shoot are outdoor landscapes by natural > light. I've never considered "accurate color" to be the > end-all. Rather, the color needs to be pleasing, and > believable. In Catalog photography- color is aimed to be 100% accurate..... & there's a reason I never felt inclined to go that route.  Signature"As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." - H. L. Mencken, in the Baltimore Sun, July 26, 1920. Reality-Is finding that perfect picture and never looking back. www.gregblankphoto.com >> 99% of what I shoot are outdoor landscapes by natural >> light. I've never considered "accurate color" to be the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > In Catalog photography- color is aimed to be 100% accurate..... > & there's a reason I never felt inclined to go that route. The colours can be accurate only if you know what kind of lightning is used when viewing the pictures. Since I don't have that control, I agree about being pleasing rather than accurate. -- Lassi >>> 99% of what I shoot are outdoor landscapes by natural >>> light. I've never considered "accurate color" to be the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >when viewing the pictures. Since I don't have that control, I agree about >being pleasing rather than accurate. All that notwithstanding, this thread by Stafford appears to be a dodge around my challenge to him. I'm not surprised. rafe b www.terrapinphoto.com > On Sat, 02 Dec 2006 13:57:11 +0200, Lassi Hippeläinen >> The colours can be accurate only if you know what kind of lightning >> is used when viewing the pictures. Since I don't have that control, >> I agree about being pleasing rather than accurate. Most would agree, but fabric companies go to great pains to accurately represent colors. Usually there would be a Kodak color chart in the picture, at the edge of the frame for final comparisons. > All that notwithstanding, this thread by Stafford appears > to be a dodge around my challenge to him. I'm not > surprised. Oy, Rafe, you are certainly feisty! Now it's a challenge? How would we go about this comparison? >> All that notwithstanding, this thread by Stafford appears >> to be a dodge around my challenge to him. I'm not >> surprised. >Oy, Rafe, you are certainly feisty! Now it's a challenge? How would we go >about this comparison? It would be entirely for my own edification and maybe yours as well, unless you want to find some "impartial judges." The latter task is probably more than I want to tackle. Point is, I hear repeatedly that optical prints are better. So I'd like to see one of these -- outside of a museum or gallery. If anyone is interested in participating in a small "traveling portfolio" I'm willing to organize that. The key is to keep it to a very small group, say a half- dozen participants, max. It also means keeping the prints relatively small, say 11x17" max. Even with a small group like that, it can still take months for the prints to go round the circuit (this I know from experience.) rafe b www.terrapinphoto.com > >> 99% of what I shoot are outdoor landscapes by natural > >> light. I've never considered "accurate color" to be the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > -- Lassi I agree as well, which was my point. Although even in scenics I mainly strive for elements of the truth subject to artistic judgments..in some instances. Signature"As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." - H. L. Mencken, in the Baltimore Sun, July 26, 1920. Reality-Is finding that perfect picture and never looking back. www.gregblankphoto.com On Sun, 03 Dec 2006 09:31:27 -0500, "Greg \"_\"" <grey_egg@greg_photo.com> wrote: >I agree as well, which was my point. Although even in scenics I mainly >strive for elements of the truth subject to artistic judgments..in some >instances. If people really went for "accurate colors," Velvia wouldn't be the mega-seller that it is. People do like their colors saturated, and IMO unreasably so. I don't make a fetish of "accurate" color, but I do resist the temptation to yank on the saturation slider in Photoshop. rafe b www.terrapinphoto.com > Old age? Diet? Or are people growing up with a more sensitive concern for > color than my generation (born in the first half of the previous century.) The news isn't good! http://spectacle.berkeley.edu/class/opt10/OPT10-06_Adams-Aging_Vision.pdf Signaturejon fabian looked good on paper f a b i a n "at" p a n i x "dot" c o m Fascinating paper. >> Old age? Diet? Or are people growing up with a more sensitive concern for >> color than my generation (born in the first half of the previous >> century.) > > The news isn't good! > http://spectacle.berkeley.edu/class/opt10/OPT10-06_Adams-Aging_Vision.pdf > (Rafe - why I bow out on Color challenges) > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Old age? Diet? Or are people growing up with a more sensitive concern for > color than my generation (born in the first half of the previous century.) Out of curiosity, what is it you're doing in your job as programmer/analyst that requires close attention to color accuracy? > Out of curiosity, what is it you're doing in your job as > programmer/analyst that requires close attention to color accuracy? See, the state has no way to categorize my position so in order to get paid enough, I'm classified as an IT technician, and also the coordinator of research and development, and the media work I describe below. I fill three positions, for better or worse. :) I still program but not as much as I did years ago. Today my programming is largely media oriented: sound, video and still support. On the side I also create server-side applications, the most recent is a server application to interface live to a field research station via radio to a statistical database and then RIP the data to visual displays. Not much programming there - a little c and SAS. Last month I finished code to make a cute little video recording/streaming/web page/email creation thingie all at once, one-button interface. (I'm into making one-button modules that you can chain together with a visual interface, but not getting the cooperation I need yet. It will work out. We are hot onto Ruby on Rails now. It's looking good.) All the rest of my work is media - digital video (making and editing), still photographer (the same), and working with publications with original design (largely vector based), and things to pass to a prepress expert. It was in a task to the later that I messed up. Oh, and certain granted still projects in the field. Recently, j <2@nowhere.com> posted: >> Out of curiosity, what is it you're doing in your job as >> programmer/analyst that requires close attention to color accuracy? [...] > All the rest of my work is media - digital video (making and > editing), still photographer (the same), and working with > publications with original design (largely vector based), and things > to pass to a prepress expert. It was in a task to the later that I > messed up. Oh, and certain granted still projects in the field. Interesting. I can relate. I've done a lot of media work in the past (video, audio, film), and now do mostly production for print, so my work with photography outside of personal pursuits is mostly for use on the printed page. In that arena, there are many issues around color reproduction that would make the artist and prepress folks more sensitive to differences in color reprepresntation than the typical photographer might have to deal with. So, don't look at it as having "messed up", because even those that work in the field full-time don't always get it right. You were just dealing with folks that have a different sensitivity to color accuracy. Neil > I've done a lot of media work in the past (video, audio, film), and > now do mostly production for print, so my work with photography [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > differences in color reprepresntation than the typical photographer > might have to deal with. Indeed. It's color by the numbers for publication. The later efforts for some magazine printers is to accept only PDF files, and of course that bit of science and invention has come a long, long way. I must add that my mate, Molly, is a magazine editor and designer and a pre-pre-press person (meaning the printer has their own prepress specialist.) "Reprepresntation," as in, "I demand legal reprepresntation, occifer." ;-) > (Rafe - why I bow out on Color challenges) > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Old age? Diet? Or are people growing up with a more sensitive concern for > color than my generation (born in the first half of the previous century.) Here is something on the effects aging has on vision. For your particular problem, I think that you need better lighting with the lighting on your work more so that lighting in the room. http://www.agingeye.net/visionbasics/theagingeye.php > (Rafe - why I bow out on Color challenges) > > Over the past few years I've had several occasions where my color perception > was questioned, > Yesterday I really blew a graphics job because I mismatched a subtle hue. **************************************************************************** Don"t feel bad. I worked in a printing place for several years when I was young and eventually got into more critical work. One day I was printing a job and my colors didn't jibe in the last half of the order with the first. The company had never had any such problems with their other employees and figured I was either not interested in doing a good job or had vision problems. They checked my color perception and I was way off. So for the rest of my time there I either printed black and white jobs or solid color ones that the customer was not that fussy with. Where most people see eight different shades of green, I see about five. Since color blindness is more common in males, it might explain why women are telling us guys that the tie doesn't go with the shirt when we think it does. Ric in Wisconsin. >Where most people see eight >different shades of green, I see about five. Since color blindness is more >common in males, it might explain why women are telling us guys that the tie >doesn't go with the shirt when we think it does. Ric in Wisconsin. There are different types of 'color blindness'. The most well know case is where people see a two dimensional color space instead the three dimensional space most people see. I guess that those people will figure out at a rather young age that something is different. There is however a rather large group of people who see a three dimensional color space, but much less accurate then normal people. Usually their limitations only show up when accurate color matching is required. SignatureThat was it. Done. The faulty Monk was turned out into the desert where it could believe what it liked, including the idea that it had been hard done by. It was allowed to keep its horse, since horses were so cheap to make. -- Douglas Adams in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency > Since color blindness is more > common in males, it might explain why women are telling us guys that the tie > doesn't go with the shirt when we think it does. Wadda ya mean a pink tie doesn't go with a chartreuse shirt?? Signaturejon fabian looked good on paper f a b i a n "at" p a n i x "dot" c o m > Wadda ya mean a pink tie doesn't go with a chartreuse shirt?? ************************************************************* LOL....It is fine with me. I see worse dressed people on TV that make milllions per week. Maybe it is my TV! Ric in Wisconsin. > > Since color blindness is more > > common in males, it might explain why women are telling us guys > > that the tie doesn't go with the shirt when we think it does. > > Wadda ya mean a pink tie doesn't go with a chartreuse shirt?? Oh I dunno, sounds like something I might wear deliberately... ;-) Peter > > Since color blindness is more > > common in males, it might explain why women are telling us guys that the tie > > doesn't go with the shirt when we think it does. > > Wadda ya mean a pink tie doesn't go with a chartreuse shirt?? Its actually such a ridiculous contrast it does in fact work. Although I wouldn't advocate the colors for a "fashion statement" SignatureGeorge W. Bush is the President Quayle we never had. > Since color blindness is more > common in males, Maybe so. But...... >it might explain why women are telling us guys that the tie > doesn't go with the shirt when we think it does. Ric in Wisconsin. Actually I think women just do see differently than guys, I was working in a color lab and several women working there complained about how much red was in the pictures. When I looked what I saw as too green they would say that looks about right. SignatureGeorge W. Bush is the President Quayle we never had. >Actually I think women just do see differently than guys, I was working >in a color lab and several women working there complained about how much >red was in the pictures. When I looked what I saw as too green they >would say that looks about right. There is a difference between the capability of distinguishing different colors and judgments what colors are pleasing, 'right', etc. As far as I know there is is no difference between men and women when it comes to low level color vision (except that more men than women have limited color vision). Esthetics very wildly, and it wouldn't surprise me if there is a big difference between men and women in this regard. SignatureThat was it. Done. The faulty Monk was turned out into the desert where it could believe what it liked, including the idea that it had been hard done by. It was allowed to keep its horse, since horses were so cheap to make. -- Douglas Adams in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency > Actually I think women just do see differently than guys, I was working > in a color lab and several women working there complained about how much > red was in the pictures. When I looked what I saw as too green they > would say that looks about right. FWIW... back when I was selling prints at crafts fairs and such, at least 80% of my customers were women. Though there may be other reasons for that. Males often came into the booth and browsed for tens of minutes... and then left without buying a thing. rafe b www.terrapinphoto.com > > Actually I think women just do see differently than guys, I was working > > in a color lab and several women working there complained about how much [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > and such, at least 80% of my customers were women. > Though there may be other reasons for that. They all wanted sex with you ;) > Males often came into the booth and browsed for tens > of minutes... and then left without buying a thing. They were all gay. > rafe b > www.terrapinphoto.com Art fairs are blast - I love talking with people up close and describing how I do stuff. The fairs if a good sales day can be a huge ego boost I remember my first one I made several K in sales. Having CC processing helps. But having a ready to sell work helps even more. That said you see lots of people sizing up for their own personal excursions into "art sales" I think from a sales stand point if you do them correctly you can make more than gallery sales,...which is a dirty little non secret. SignatureGeorge W. Bush is the President Quayle we never had. >> FWIW... back when I was selling prints at crafts fairs >> and such, at least 80% of my customers were women. >> Though there may be other reasons for that. > >> Males often came into the booth and browsed for tens >> of minutes... and then left without buying a thing. > > They were all gay. Or just killin' time waitin' for their wives. > > Actually I think women just do see differently than guys, I was working > > in a color lab and several women working there complained about how much [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Males often came into the booth and browsed for tens > of minutes... and then left without buying a thing. It's up to the wife to decide what gets hung on the walls. Also, it's up to the wife to decide how a man spends his money. > www.terrapinphoto.com |
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