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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Medium format / December 2006

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Film choice

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Peter Chant - 18 Nov 2006 00:46 GMT
My photos mostly fall into the landscape or architecture category (the
crumbling ruin end).  I don't do a great deal of MF photography.  I'm
coming to the conclusion that something like Portra 160NC is my best bet
for a colour film.  Given that it is, I beleive, a portrait film this seems
a little odd.  I know that it is a matter of personal preference to some
extent but it strikes me as an odd choice.  I have been using Fuji Superia
xtra 400 but the photos are too contrasty with shadows to dark and skys
being on the edge of being burnt out - and the negs look like they are on
the edge of being too contrasty to be rescued with a scan.

I find this all slightly odd, as for colour 35mm my favorite is Provia 100
for slide.

I'm using a Mamiya C330 if that makes a difference.

Any thoughts?  Any similar experience?

Pete

Signature

http://www.petezilla.co.uk

chasfs - 18 Nov 2006 05:35 GMT
Hi Peter,

   It really depends on what you're planning to do once its developed.
If you plan to scan with a 4000DPI scanner and make large prints I
suggest that you use slide film. If you're making 8x10's or smaller, it
doesn't matter as much.  The slide film has substantially lower noise
from grain.  If you like the look of grain, by all means use print
film.  Neat Image plus selective blurring can remove most of the grain
noise, but its more work to clean up print film than it is slide film.

   I've used Astia which is Fuji's lower contrast ASA 100 slide film,
but it doesn't have as much dynamic range as Provia or Velvia. Astia
doesn't work well in bright sunlight because of its lack of dynamic
range.  For cloudy scenes, or shooting in subdued light near sunrise or
sunset, Astia if very nice.  Its level of detail is similar to Provia.

   For print film, I'm pretty happy with Fuji Reala 100 in 120 format.
It has a very wide dynamic range and detail that is just a tad lower
than Provia and Astia.  After cleaning up the noise I've made very nice
24"x30" prints from a 6x7 negative. Please see "Lower Falls Wine Co.,
Wellesely, MA - Oct 2006" at http://chasfs.com for an example of a
Reala image.

    Of the Fuji slide films, Velvia has the most detail, and I think
it has the most contrast.  Of course you can increase or decrease
contrast in Photoshop, but its more difficult to deal with a lack of
dynamic range.

     Provia 400F has less detail than the 100 ASA Fuji slide films and
Reala, but it has lower grain noise than print film.  I've pushed
Provia 400F to ASA 800 with very scannable results.  Provia 400F pushed
is very much better than Fuji Pro 800z, in my opinion.

     To sum up - print film has a lot more dynamic range, but higher
noise from grain than slide film.  Dynamic range and contrast both
increase as you go from Astia to Provia to Velvia. Detail increases as
you go from Provia 400 to Reala to Provia 100 or Astia and increases
further with Velvia.  Fuji has a lot of information available at
http://www.fujifilm.com/products/professional_films/lineup.html. Click
until you get to the datasheets for the various films and compare them.

Hope this helps,
-chasfs
http://chasfs.com

> My photos mostly fall into the landscape or architecture category (the
> crumbling ruin end).  I don't do a great deal of MF photography.  I'm
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Pete
Rob Novak - 20 Nov 2006 14:33 GMT
>    I've used Astia which is Fuji's lower contrast ASA 100 slide film,
>but it doesn't have as much dynamic range as Provia or Velvia. Astia
>doesn't work well in bright sunlight because of its lack of dynamic
>range.

Not surprising.  Astia was specifically designed for studio work under
strobe, not daylight.  It's great for skintones, and has plenty of
detail.   However, its moderate contrast can't deal with landscapes
and other outdoor daylight photography well.  By that, I mean, if you
need more than what the film has to offer.

>     Of the Fuji slide films, Velvia has the most detail, and I think
>it has the most contrast.  Of course you can increase or decrease
>contrast in Photoshop, but its more difficult to deal with a lack of
>dynamic range.

You can also overexpose Velvia slightly - you lose some of the
saturation, and you have to be careful (as with any slide film) about
your highlights, but you pick up more in the midtones.  For fun, push
Velvia 100 to 400 - it gets like stained glass.  Very high contrast
and screaming colors, very primary.

Of course, shooting crumbling architecture lends itself very well to a
roll of Pan-F+ or Fuji Acros.  Heck, a Holga loaded with HP5+ is
another good choice.
Signature

Central Maryland Photographer's Guild - http://www.cmpg.org
Strange, Geometrical Hinges - http://sgh.rnovak.net

Simon Meeds - 20 Nov 2006 19:14 GMT
> For fun, push
> Velvia 100 to 400 - it gets like stained glass.  Very high contrast
> and screaming colors, very primary.

Yes, this was an accident, but I'm pleased I did it...

http://www.web-photographers.com/sites.asp?gallery=1&disp=2095&id=37&fld=94

Simon
Peter Chant - 22 Nov 2006 00:33 GMT
> Hi Peter,
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> film.  Neat Image plus selective blurring can remove most of the grain
> noise, but its more work to clean up print film than it is slide film.

Just started to reply, much larger response than I exptected!

I'm getting prints produced by a reputable lab and also scanning the negs.
Using an Epsom 4990.  I note that this does not get the maximum from the
film (noticed much more with 35mm), however, it delivers a lot for the
money.

Mainly 8x8 wanted but the odd one printed larger - of course I don't know
which ones until after!  I've got a rather nice 18x14 (cropped) printed and
hung on the wall at the moment.

>     I've used Astia which is Fuji's lower contrast ASA 100 slide film,
> but it doesn't have as much dynamic range as Provia or Velvia. Astia
> doesn't work well in bright sunlight because of its lack of dynamic
> range.  For cloudy scenes, or shooting in subdued light near sunrise or
> sunset, Astia if very nice.  Its level of detail is similar to Provia.

Hmm, I find Sensia a little flat in 35mm, I thought it was similar?  Got an
old roll in the fridge to try in 35mm.

I am really happy with Provia in 35mm.  Shot one roll in 120 but not so
happy, but then that was probally as it was one of those overcast days
where the slides all look blue/green/grey.  Note to self, warm up filter.

>     For print film, I'm pretty happy with Fuji Reala 100 in 120 format.
> It has a very wide dynamic range and detail that is just a tad lower
> than Provia and Astia.  After cleaning up the noise I've made very nice
> 24"x30" prints from a 6x7 negative. Please see "Lower Falls Wine Co.,
> Wellesely, MA - Oct 2006" at http://chasfs.com for an example of a
> Reala image.

I've used one roll - must pick out which one, but I'm not sure of the
result.  I must scan and compare.

>      Of the Fuji slide films, Velvia has the most detail, and I think
> it has the most contrast.  Of course you can increase or decrease
> contrast in Photoshop, but its more difficult to deal with a lack of
> dynamic range.

Never got on with Velvia 50 - more luck with 100.  A revisit of provia 100
is on the cards.

>       Provia 400F has less detail than the 100 ASA Fuji slide films and
> Reala, but it has lower grain noise than print film.  I've pushed
> Provia 400F to ASA 800 with very scannable results.  Provia 400F pushed
> is very much better than Fuji Pro 800z, in my opinion.

And that seems worth a try as I like to hand hold.  (Yes heresy, but I
really do prefer to hand hold).

>       To sum up - print film has a lot more dynamic range, but higher
> noise from grain than slide film.  Dynamic range and contrast both
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Hope this helps,

Thanks for your response.

Pete
Philip Homburg - 18 Nov 2006 10:13 GMT
>My photos mostly fall into the landscape or architecture category (the
>crumbling ruin end).  I don't do a great deal of MF photography.  I'm
>coming to the conclusion that something like Portra 160NC is my best bet
>for a colour film.  Given that it is, I beleive, a portrait film this seems
>a little odd.  

The thing that proably makes it a portrait film is that it has relatively
low saturation. You don't want any trace of too much green in a portrait.

For scanning the low saturation doesn't matter as much, and 160NC does have
very nice grain.

160S is similar film from Fuji. It is very sharp, and for 35mm it may
have a little bit too much grain in shadow areas, but for 120 that proably
doesn't matter.

Of course, if you are scanning and the scene contrast fits, it is better
to use slide film.

>I have been using Fuji Superia
>xtra 400 but the photos are too contrasty with shadows to dark and skys
>being on the edge of being burnt out - and the negs look like they are on
>the edge of being too contrasty to be rescued with a scan.

Superia Reala is also a good print film that can handle large contrasts.

As ISO 400 print films go, Kodak's Ultra does seem to work quite well.

Signature

That was it. Done. The faulty Monk was turned out into the desert where it
could believe what it liked, including the idea that it had been hard done
by. It was allowed to keep its horse, since horses were so cheap to make.
    -- Douglas Adams in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency

Greg "_" - 18 Nov 2006 12:48 GMT
> 160S is similar film from Fuji. It is very sharp, and for 35mm it may
> have a little bit too much grain in shadow areas, but for 120 that proably
> doesn't matter.
>
> Of course, if you are scanning and the scene contrast fits, it is better
> to use slide film.

Supposedly the 160S is better for scanning, I have some which I have yet
to scan. But I have noticed (at least for me) that NPH scans better.
Signature

"As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely,
the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great
and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire
at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
- H. L. Mencken, in the Baltimore Sun, July 26, 1920.

Reality-Is finding that perfect picture
and never looking back.

www.gregblankphoto.com

Noons - 19 Nov 2006 02:28 GMT
> > 160S is similar film from Fuji. It is very sharp, and for 35mm it may
> > have a little bit too much grain in shadow areas, but for 120 that proably
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> to scan. But I have noticed (at least for me) that NPH scans better.
> --

160C is supposed to be very similar except more contrasty.
its grain is nothing to write home about: prefer astia or provia, quite
frankly.
as for being more suitable to scan, I doubt it. at least, in my case.
I find provia and astia much easier to scan.  160C however has
much more "exposure latitude", whatever that means nowadays.
David J. Littleboy - 19 Nov 2006 02:35 GMT
>> > 160S is similar film from Fuji. It is very sharp, and for 35mm it may
>> > have a little bit too much grain in shadow areas, but for 120 that
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> I find provia and astia much easier to scan.  160C however has
> much more "exposure latitude", whatever that means nowadays.

FWIW, the (relatively new) Fuji ISO 160 negative film that says "PN160NC" on
the edges of the negatives themselves (and is sold as "PRO16NC" in Japan) is
very nice stuff. Nice punchy colors and finger-shredding sharpeness for
landscape types, and the finest grain I've ever seen in a negative film. If
you've got a Nikon 9000, you should shoot a roll or two.

That said, I always find myself coming back to Provia 100F.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
Philip Homburg - 19 Nov 2006 10:17 GMT
>FWIW, the (relatively new) Fuji ISO 160 negative film that says "PN160NC" on
>the edges of the negatives themselves (and is sold as "PRO16NC" in Japan) is
>very nice stuff. Nice punchy colors and finger-shredding sharpeness for
>landscape types, and the finest grain I've ever seen in a negative film. If
>you've got a Nikon 9000, you should shoot a roll or two.

Interesting. From the datasheet it looks like it is the same as the 160S
sold over here. But 160S is labeled as 'PRO160S' on the edge of the film.

On 35mm you get
<http://misc.hq.phicoh.net/scan-details/160s.jpg>
from an LS-4000 (without any sharpening).

The entire frame is
<http://misc.hq.phicoh.net/scan-details/160s.full.jpg>

Signature

That was it. Done. The faulty Monk was turned out into the desert where it
could believe what it liked, including the idea that it had been hard done
by. It was allowed to keep its horse, since horses were so cheap to make.
    -- Douglas Adams in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency

Noons - 21 Nov 2006 11:29 GMT
> FWIW, the (relatively new) Fuji ISO 160 negative film that says "PN160NC" on
> the edges of the negatives themselves (and is sold as "PRO16NC" in Japan) is
> very nice stuff. Nice punchy colors and finger-shredding sharpeness for
> landscape types, and the finest grain I've ever seen in a negative film. If
> you've got a Nikon 9000, you should shoot a roll or two.

thanks.  I'm finding the ls9000 much more critical of
color negs than slides. mind you: might well be my scanning
technique, still learning how to use it.

I'll definitely try this film to see if it makes a diff.
One I tried before says PRO160C in the edges.
The other thing is: I didn't take it to my normal
pro lab for processing, it was just a local facility:
they'll definitely not pay the same attention to
the "soup".  Must give it a better chance.
David J. Littleboy - 21 Nov 2006 11:41 GMT
>> FWIW, the (relatively new) Fuji ISO 160 negative film that says "PN160NC"
>> on
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> they'll definitely not pay the same attention to
> the "soup".  Must give it a better chance.

I've got a couple of rolls (120) of the Japanese version lying around. Send
me your physical mail address by private email and I'll send them to you.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
Noons - 24 Nov 2006 15:18 GMT
> I've got a couple of rolls (120) of the Japanese version lying around. Send
> me your physical mail address by private email and I'll send them to you.

thanks a lot.  not as bad as I thought, after giving it another try:

http://members.iinet.net.au/~nsouto/photos/ultron%20f4%20wide.jpg

that's without any NI or similar:  not bad for a colour neg film!
note the metal grid fence on the left, between the wooden trellis
panels.
Raphael Bustin - 21 Nov 2006 13:52 GMT
>thanks.  I'm finding the ls9000 much more critical of
>color negs than slides. mind you: might well be my scanning
>technique, still learning how to use it.

See Dane Kosaka's excellent site and his alternative
techniques for scanning negatives on the Nikon
scanners.  The top-level URL for his site is here:

<http://www.marginalsoftware.com/index.html>

Dane is also the moderator of the LS-8000/9000
list on Yahoo and an all-around nice guy.

My suggestion is to pay close attention to the
histograms (per-color) and use the individual analog
gain controls (per-color.)  This is one of the most
unique features of the Nikon scanners, and is
a direct consequence of the LED illumination scheme.

rafe b
www.terrapinphoto.com
Noons - 24 Nov 2006 03:41 GMT
> See Dane Kosaka's excellent site and his alternative
> techniques for scanning negatives on the Nikon
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> unique features of the Nikon scanners, and is
> a direct consequence of the LED illumination scheme.

Thanks, excellent reference site and advice.
I've started playing with the analog gains now and
there is much there to learn!
MLIDDELL - 18 Nov 2006 12:03 GMT
I like provia too but since I can't use grads with my mamiya 7 I've
been shooting portra 160vc with it and it has performed well. I've been
meaning to try NC for a while.

There is appreciably more grain in scans from it though, I have heard
fashion people using portra 400 all the time because the 160 didn't
have that much less grain. The new portra films are apparently better.

Scanners seem to increase grain making provia the perfect choice for
scanning. Much more latitude than velvia (which is prone to very dense
shadows that the scanner can't handle) and also finer grain.
Greg "_" - 18 Nov 2006 12:48 GMT
> My photos mostly fall into the landscape or architecture category (the
> crumbling ruin end).  I don't do a great deal of MF photography.  I'm
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Pete

IMOP - NPS is a very close match to Provia. Slightly more saturated
perhaps.
Signature

"As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely,
the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great
and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire
at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
- H. L. Mencken, in the Baltimore Sun, July 26, 1920.

Reality-Is finding that perfect picture
and never looking back.

www.gregblankphoto.com

Bandicoot - 18 Nov 2006 16:31 GMT
> My photos mostly fall into the landscape or architecture category (the
> crumbling ruin end).  I don't do a great deal of MF photography.  I'm
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Any thoughts?  Any similar experience?

Portra 160NC is one of my favourite print films, and I take very few
portraits, so you are not alone.  I prefer slide film when I can use it, but
there are subjects for which the longer tonal range of negatives is needed:
for me this is especially so with plant and garden work, particularly if I
have to work on a sunny day, and can also apply to some architecture and
some interiors.  So I end up using a lot of 160NC.

The other print film I like is Kodak Ultra, which is much contrastier.  I
like this as a film to have in the little pocket camera that has to be ready
for anything: it gives punchy images but has more tonal range than slides so
is a versatile film.  Not usually a great landscape choice though.  Ultra
400 is basically the successor to Portra 400UC - I like it a lot more than I
like 160VC.

I find 160NC pretty easy to scan, so if you want a print film for
landscapes, I think it's a good choice.  I rate it at ISO 125, which gives a
bit more shadow exposure without 'over-cooking' the colours.  Some people I
know routinely rate it at ISO 100, but I do that only if I really need to.

If I can use slide film for landscapes I usually prefer it, but for gardens
I tend to use the 160NC for wider shots and for any individual plants that
are in sun, with slide film only for plants that have softer lighting.  For
landscape I use Velvia and Kodak E100VS mostly, with some Provia when I want
a slightly longer tonal range or 'milder' colours.  Provia is also the slide
film I load when travelling if I don't know what conditions to expect, but
can take only a single MF body.

In the studio I make rather more use of Provia, and also Astia, which I
don't use outside very often at all: for a low contrast film it has a
surprisingly short tonal range.  I see Portra 160NC's palette as somewhere
between Provia and Astia, though a bit less blue than Provia.

HTH,

Peter
Bandicoot - 18 Nov 2006 17:45 GMT
[SNIP]
> The other print film I like is Kodak Ultra,

Oops, that should be Kodak Elite.  With Kodak changing the names of all
their films every five minutes I have trouble keeping up...

> which is much contrastier.  I like this as a film to have in the little
pocket
> camera that has to be ready for anything: it gives punchy images but has
> more tonal range than slides so is a versatile film.  Not usually a great
> landscape choice though.  Ultra 400 is basically the successor to Portra
> 400UC - I like it a lot more than I like 160VC.

Peter
UC - 19 Nov 2006 18:00 GMT
> My photos mostly fall into the landscape or architecture category (the
> crumbling ruin end).  I don't do a great deal of MF photography.  I'm
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> --
> http://www.petezilla.co.uk

I use two color films:

Kodachrome 64 Pro

and

Fuji NPH Pro 400 color neg
Dana H. Myers - 20 Nov 2006 20:56 GMT
> I use two color films:
>
> Kodachrome 64 Pro

In MF?  Wow. PKR 120 hasn't been made in years, and I don't know
who still processes it.

Dana
UC - 21 Nov 2006 18:12 GMT
> > I use two color films:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Dana

No, 35mm.
steven.sawyer@banet.net - 08 Dec 2006 02:45 GMT
>> > I use two color films:
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> No, 35mm.

Unfortunately no one will process 120 sized Kodachrome even though there are
enthusiasts - I'm told - who have freezers full of the stuff.  The sad thing
is the lab who handles Kodachrome now, Dwayne's, will process 126, 110 and I
believe 828 sized Kodachrome.  Unfortunately Kodak won't produce any of
those sizes.
Steve
Duncan - 08 Dec 2006 04:12 GMT
I read somewhere that Kodak France will process it. Not sure if that's still
the case.

Duncan

>>> > I use two color films:
>>> >
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> any of those sizes.
> Steve
 
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