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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Medium format / November 2006

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Dealing with limited dof in landscapes

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MLIDDELL - 16 Nov 2006 19:17 GMT
I've been using MF for landscapes for about 2 years now and I'm getting
increasingly frustrated with the limited dof with 6x7 and limitations
in imposes. How do you guys cope with it?

Here are some examples where dof is an issue:
http://www.liddellphoto.com/landscape/images/people_beach.jpg
http://www.liddellphoto.com/landscape/images/formby_sunset.jpg

Any composition that includes some of the foreground is impossible even
focussing close and shooting a f/16. The 'near-far' compositions are
impossible without a blurred 'far'. I'm finding that it is really
restricting my compositions and what I shoot.

It appears that scheimpflug is my only saviour if I'm to use formats
larger than 35mm. There are large format/medium format hybrid cameras
from linhof, horseman etc. but they seem to be for architecture and do
not have the tilt movement.

I really don't want to go down the large format/roll film back route
because of the length of time it takes to set up and how tedious and it
difficult they are to operate. I love my RB. It is quite quick to use
and set up (bar the separate shutter cocking/film advance) and pretty
much idiot proof with all the interlocks.

The RB 75mm shift lens only does shift only as far as I know so it
would appear the only other possible option is the zoerk 'multi focus
system' with an LF lens (http://usa.zoerk.com/pages/p_pshift.htm) The
pdf states there is an option for leaf shuttered lenses. I'm also not
crazy on wide angle lenses so this may work - if a bit pricy.

I really wish there was a rollei SL66 equivalent in 6x7/6x8 or that I'd
like square format!

Any other ideas?
Malcolm Stewart - 16 Nov 2006 19:33 GMT
> I've been using MF for landscapes for about 2 years now and I'm getting
> increasingly frustrated with the limited dof with 6x7 and limitations
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> impossible without a blurred 'far'. I'm finding that it is really
> restricting my compositions and what I shoot.

Are you not aware of the software which combines several images (shot at
different distance settings) to give you extended DoF?  (With a bit of luck
I'll find the reference to it!)

Having used a 4x5 technical camera and also owning a 4x5 monorail, I know
the frustrations.
Signature

M Stewart
Milton Keynes, UK

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Lobby Dosser - 16 Nov 2006 22:22 GMT
>> I've been using MF for landscapes for about 2 years now and I'm
>> getting increasingly frustrated with the limited dof with 6x7 and
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> at different distance settings) to give you extended DoF?  (With a bit
> of luck I'll find the reference to it!)

Here is one article:

<http://bigwww.epfl.ch/demo/edf/>

From a google search on: software multi image dof
Or: software extended dof

There was also an article recently in a photo/image magazine. Of course,
I can't remember which one, nor can I find it.
j - 17 Nov 2006 02:29 GMT
> Are you not aware of the software which combines several images (shot
> at different distance settings) to give you extended DoF?

Yup. Everybody wants to spend their days and nights bound to a computer.
Without doubt.
Lobby Dosser - 17 Nov 2006 04:49 GMT
>> Are you not aware of the software which combines several images (shot
>> at different distance settings) to give you extended DoF?
>
> Yup. Everybody wants to spend their days and nights bound to a computer.
> Without doubt.

You've tried it? What's it really like?
j - 17 Nov 2006 15:22 GMT
>>> Are you not aware of the software which combines several images
>>> (shot at different distance settings) to give you extended DoF?
>>
>> Yup. Everybody wants to spend their days and nights bound to a
>> computer. Without doubt.

> You've tried it? What's it really like?

I did quite a bit of that stuff years ago, before there was a commercial
product. The science is derrived from a late 80's PhD disertation. Nothing
has improved but the user interface.

At first it was pretty cool because I had attempted the same with analog
(regular old darkroom and film camera) in the seventies. But I'm over it. :)
Rob Novak - 16 Nov 2006 22:36 GMT
>Any composition that includes some of the foreground is impossible even
>focussing close and shooting a f/16. The 'near-far' compositions are
>impossible without a blurred 'far'. I'm finding that it is really
>restricting my compositions and what I shoot.

What lens are you shooting?

Why are you limited to f/16?

The hyperfocal distance for the 50mm wideangle at f/32 is about 4-1/2
feet.  Everything from 2'3" to infinity should be in apparent focus.

Are you worried about the diffraction softness with the smaller
aperture?

Signature

Rob on the Web: http://rob.rnovak.net

MLIDDELL - 16 Nov 2006 22:51 GMT
Yeah I was worried about diffraction. I usually just crop off the out
of focus bit when I print.

I use the 90mm on the RB, I find composing with wide angles hard but I
will try and pick up a 50mm cheap and see how I get on.

> >Any composition that includes some of the foreground is impossible even
> >focussing close and shooting a f/16. The 'near-far' compositions are
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> --
> Rob on the Web:http://rob.rnovak.net
David J. Littleboy - 17 Nov 2006 00:48 GMT
> Yeah I was worried about diffraction.

My experience is that even with a 60x microscope, the degradation at f/22 is
not significant. Try f/22, you'll probably like it. If you are scanning at
4000 ppi or making 13x enlargements, you'll probably notice degradation at
f/32. Maybe.

> I usually just crop off the out of focus bit when I print.

Ah, but that increases the magnification to the print and reduce DOF even
further.

> I use the 90mm on the RB, I find composing with wide angles hard but I
> will try and pick up a 50mm cheap and see how I get on.

The DOF with the 50mm lens will be 3.2 times wider at midrange distances,
and give you lots more room when playing hyperfocal games.

One thing to be aware of in MF is that DOF tables and calculators are often
insanely overly optimistic. So you have to test yourself.

For each lens for each f stop you'll be using (f/16 and f/22) take a series
of frames of a scene with sharp detail in the distance (cityscapes work
great). Start with the camera focused at infinity and gradually focus closer
and closer for each frame. Find the last focus position at which detail at
infinity is adequately sharp. That's your hyperfocal setting for that lens
(focal length) and f stop. Take careful notes.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
Scott W - 17 Nov 2006 00:39 GMT
> I've been using MF for landscapes for about 2 years now and I'm getting
> increasingly frustrated with the limited dof with 6x7 and limitations
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> Any other ideas?

An important factor to take into account is how large of prints are you
making?  If for example you are making fairly small prints like 8 x 10
you can really stop down the aperture and the effect of diffraction
will not be noticeable.  If on the other hand you are making poster
sized prints and trying to get everything out of the film that is
possible you probably will be limited to somewhere in the range of f/16
to f/32.  If you are just making 8 x 10 prints you could likely shoot
at f/64 and still get a fairly sharp print.

Scott
RolandRB - 17 Nov 2006 08:54 GMT
> I've been using MF for landscapes for about 2 years now and I'm getting
> increasingly frustrated with the limited dof with 6x7 and limitations
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> impossible without a blurred 'far'. I'm finding that it is really
> restricting my compositions and what I shoot.

Use a wide angle lens and you won't have this problem. If you want to
stick to your current lens then shoot from slightly higher up so that
the foreground is further away. If using a tripod then do your
composition and raise the central column and then shoot.
j - 17 Nov 2006 15:23 GMT
> Use a wide angle lens and you won't have this problem. [...]

Use Large Format movements and wide lenses and you won't have that problem.
But you will be trading a headache for an upset stomach.
Bandicoot - 18 Nov 2006 17:16 GMT
> I've been using MF for landscapes for about 2 years now and I'm getting
> increasingly frustrated with the limited dof with 6x7 and limitations
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> http://www.liddellphoto.com/landscape/images/people_beach.jpg
> http://www.liddellphoto.com/landscape/images/formby_sunset.jpg

Nice pictures, both of them.

> Any composition that includes some of the foreground is impossible even
> focussing close and shooting a f/16. The 'near-far' compositions are
> impossible without a blurred 'far'. I'm finding that it is really
> restricting my compositions and what I shoot.

Both your examples, especially the Formby one, really are typical of the
situation where people would use tilt to give the focus they need.  However,
I do think you are being more cautious with your aperture than you need.
f16 may be a good rule of thumb in the 35mm world, but shooting 6x7 you
shouldn't be afraid of f22.  f32, even, will be fine unless you want rather
large enlargements.  I suggest you take some test shots at different
apertures, with each lens you have, and enlarge them to your 'usual' size
and to your 'maximum' size to see what your real-world limits are on
aperture are.  As has already been suggested, it's worth doing some (more)
tests to see where you want to regard as the hyperfocal distances for each
lens/aperture as well.  I think you'll find you can go smaller than f16
without diffraction becoming a major issue.

I think in your first example, stopping down might have been all you'd need
for the DoF you wanted, though the second one might still have needed some
tilt - hard to tell for sure on a web-picture, obviously.

> It appears that scheimpflug is my only saviour if I'm to use formats
> larger than 35mm. There are large format/medium format hybrid cameras
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> and set up (bar the separate shutter cocking/film advance) and pretty
> much idiot proof with all the interlocks.

I hate to say it, but I think you should look at this option again.  A 6x9
field or monorail camera will give you the movements you want and will be
much lighter than the RB.  Yes it takes a bit more time to set up, but it
isn't that onerous.  I came, some time ago, to the conclusion that no one
system could do everything I wanted - so in MF I have rangefinders for
mobility and speed, SLRs, a TLR, and 'view camera' systems.  Adding a view
camera option to what you have with your RB need not add an outrageous
amount of weight/bulk (and if weight was your biggest concern, you wouldn't
be using an RB anyway!) and nor need it be very expensive.

My favourite 6x7 / 6x9 'view' system is an Arca-Swiss monorail.  The older
type are not expensive used and there's no shortage of 'the bits' for them.
These are very light cameras, but rigid, and versatile.  You could put
together a modest set of lenses for very little outlay, used, to experiment
with this approach - especially as you say you don't much like wide-angles,
since it is the wides that tend to be expensive.

The other camera I use for this sort of thing is a bit less flexible, but is
both more compact and cheaper.  This is a (somewhat modified) Graflex
Century Graphic - a small folding camera.  You can't use really long lenses
on one of these, but if front tilt and a bit of rise and fall are all you
really want by way of movements, it is a very nice little piece of kit.  You
can fold it up with a 'standard' lens in place, and it is very light.  It's
easier to use in landscape than portrait orientation (no revolving back) and
that's the biggest drawback, really: you don't get more than slight front
tilt in portrait orientation unless you modify the front standard.

Either of these options would have worked perfectly for the two examples you
posted links to.

> The RB 75mm shift lens only does shift only as far as I know so it
> would appear the only other possible option is the zoerk 'multi focus
> system' with an LF lens (http://usa.zoerk.com/pages/p_pshift.htm) The
> pdf states there is an option for leaf shuttered lenses. I'm also not
> crazy on wide angle lenses so this may work - if a bit pricy.

You can get some Ukrainian made lenses with tilt as well as shift - the 45mm
is OK, the 55mm really rather good, and the 65mm somewhere between the other
two.  None of these has a leaf shutter though so they don't help with your
RB - but you can get them in Pentax 6x7 mount.  that might be an option to
consider that would be cheaper than the Zoerk gadget.

> I really wish there was a rollei SL66 equivalent in 6x7/6x8 or that I'd
> like square format!

It's a shame Mamiya never copied Rollei's tilt front idea...

Peter
MLIDDELL - 19 Nov 2006 17:55 GMT
Just emailed Zoerk and they have told me their kit for RB/RZ has been
discontinued.

My 50mm for the RB should be arriving next week so I'll give it a try.
I've never been crazy on wides but I haven't spent that much time with
them either so I'll see how it goes along with shooting from a higher
position and stopping down a bit more. If I can't get on with it, it
will go back on ebay!

Thanks for your informative reply Peter. One camera certainly doesn't
work for everything! I will be looking into the LF options if doing the
above doesn't do what I want.
UC - 19 Nov 2006 18:12 GMT
> I've been using MF for landscapes for about 2 years now and I'm getting
> increasingly frustrated with the limited dof with 6x7 and limitations
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> impossible without a blurred 'far'. I'm finding that it is really
> restricting my compositions and what I shoot.

Use the hyperfocal distance, moron. Who says everything should be
sharp, anyway? Why do they let idiots like you by cameras?

Fuckhead....dipshit

> It appears that scheimpflug is my only saviour if I'm to use formats
> larger than 35mm. There are large format/medium format hybrid cameras
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Any other ideas?
Raphael Bustin - 19 Nov 2006 19:15 GMT
>Use the hyperfocal distance, moron. Who says everything should be
>sharp, anyway? Why do they let idiots like you by cameras?
>
>Fuckhead....dipshit

For the same reason that people such as yourself
can't be prevented from posting on USENET.

rafe b
www.terrapinphoto.com
UC - 19 Nov 2006 19:41 GMT
> >Use the hyperfocal distance, moron. Who says everything should be
> >sharp, anyway? Why do they let idiots like you by cameras?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> rafe b
> www.terrapinphoto.com

Photographers are the stupidest organisms in the universe. They make me
sick with their idiotic questions.
j - 19 Nov 2006 19:50 GMT
> Photographers are the stupidest organisms in the universe. They make
> me sick with their idiotic questions.

These non-photographers actually make pictures while you spew venom instead.
UC - 20 Nov 2006 14:08 GMT
> > Photographers are the stupidest organisms in the universe. They make
> > me sick with their idiotic questions.
>
> These non-photographers actually make pictures while you spew venom instead.

I love the smell of venom in the morning. It smells like...fixer.
j - 21 Nov 2006 01:36 GMT
>>> Photographers are the stupidest organisms in the universe. They make
>>> me sick with their idiotic questions.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> I love the smell of venom in the morning. It smells like...fixer.

Yah, sure. You havent' made a picture in 28 months.
UC - 20 Nov 2006 14:09 GMT
> > Photographers are the stupidest organisms in the universe. They make
> > me sick with their idiotic questions.
>
> These non-photographers actually make pictures while you spew venom instead.

The photographs I don't make are better than the ones you do.
j - 21 Nov 2006 01:37 GMT
>>> Photographers are the stupidest organisms in the universe. They make
>>> me sick with their idiotic questions.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> The photographs I don't make are better than the ones you do.

Zing! Nice comeback. I must admit. Of course, it's all words and false,  but
a good comeback regardless.
UC - 21 Nov 2006 17:52 GMT
> >>> Photographers are the stupidest organisms in the universe. They make
> >>> me sick with their idiotic questions.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Zing! Nice comeback. I must admit. Of course, it's all words and false,  but
> a good comeback regardless.

Thanks.
j - 19 Nov 2006 19:49 GMT
> Use the hyperfocal distance, moron. Who says everything should be
> sharp, anyway? Why do they let idiots like you by cameras?

Drunk at noon on Sunday again, eh UC?
Patrick Smith - 23 Nov 2006 11:51 GMT
> I've been using MF for landscapes for about 2 years now and I'm getting
> increasingly frustrated with the limited dof with 6x7 and limitations
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> http://www.liddellphoto.com/landscape/images/people_beach.jpg
> http://www.liddellphoto.com/landscape/images/formby_sunset.jpg

A camera with tilt is probably the way to explore. I have used the
Hasselblad Flexbody until it was stolen: nice, easy to carry and fast to
use.

The landscapes on my website were shot with a Mamiya 7 and 50, 65,80 mm
lenses. Not quite the pictures you take (personally I prefer
out-of-focus foregrounds to concentrate on far-away subjects). I
routinely work handheld (the Mamiya is good at this), so, except in
summer, I shoot around 1/60 @ f/11. Enlargements are 17"x 28" minimum
(my forthcoming exhibit will show 30"x40" prints).

As the prints sell quite well, I am investing in LF (+ tripod ;)

All the best for your search,

Patrick
to reply, remove both hyphens in address
web: www.patricksmith.fr
 
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