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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Medium format / August 2006Modern 6x9 Rangefinders
I'd like to get hold of a (relatively) modern medium format rangefinder camera - something similar, if it exists, to the Mamiya "7" series cameras, but taking 6x9 negatives. Would a Fuji G690 off eBay be about the closest I could get to fitting the bill? Grateful for any recommendations. > I'd like to get hold of a (relatively) modern medium format > rangefinder camera - something similar, if it exists, to the Mamiya > "7" series cameras, but taking 6x9 negatives. > > Would a Fuji G690 off eBay be about the closest I could get to fitting > the bill? Grateful for any recommendations. The Fuji 690 rangefinders get wonderful reviews, and the 60/4.0 lens in my Fuji 645 rangefinder is the sharpest lens I own. The lenses are fixed and there's no meter. I ended up going with the Mamiya 7 because while 65mm on 6x7 is one of the FOV's I like, I'd prefer either 55 or 75mm on 6x9. David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan > I'd like to get hold of a (relatively) modern medium format > rangefinder camera - something similar, if it exists, to the Mamiya > "7" series cameras, but taking 6x9 negatives. > > Would a Fuji G690 off eBay be about the closest I could get to > fitting the bill? Grateful for any recommendations. The G690, 690BL, and GL690 are all old cameras now - but excellent. They take interchangeable lenses: 50mm, 65mm (in f8 and rarer f5.6 versions), 100mm (also in an aperture priority AE version), 150mm, 180mm, and rather rare 250mm. The 65mm seems to be a Super-Angulon design and is superb. The 100mm and 180mm are among the sharpest lenses I own, and both have nice bokeh too. The body seems to do a great job of keeping the film flat, and compared to most 6x9s that's a big advantage. The finder has parallax adjusting framelines for the 100 and 150mm lenses, you use add on finders for all the others. They are big and heavy though: they're not known as the Texas Leica for nothing (and one appears in a Bond film...) Despite that, handling is actually rather good. Later on Fuji introduced models with fixed lenses, in a 90mm and a 65mm version - these are the GW690, GSW690 and similar. There's some good information on these cameras at: http://www.dantestella.com/technical/g690bl.html and: http://www.dantestella.com/technical/gw.html I like mine a lot (I have a couple of 6x9s and a 6x7, with 65, 100 and 180mm lenses). They are actually heavier than a 6x9 monorail outfit but easier to transport, and of course you can't (really) use a monorail hand-held. I like them for some travel work - though for landscape I prefer soemthing I can use ND grad.s on - and for people. I recently did an assignment to shoot musicians rehearsing and used on with the 65mm lens and a roll of 220: the extremely quiet shutter was a real blessing. The 100mm lens on these is one of the ones that consistently gets a 'wow' from the guy at my drum-scanning place when he looks at the slides under his high powered loupe. I don't know much about other 6x9 RF options. I _think_ the Plaubel Makina was only ever made as a 6x7, and the Plaubel 69W Proshift isn't a rangefinder. The Mamiya Press cameras would be another option, not exactly modern in design, though they were made up until surprisingly recently. Peter [---] >I don't know much about other 6x9 RF options. But what you've given me already on the Fujis has been extremely helpful. Many thanks to both you and David for some very useful information. > I'd like to get hold of a (relatively) modern medium format > rangefinder camera - something similar, if it exists, to the Mamiya > "7" series cameras, but taking 6x9 negatives. > > Would a Fuji G690 off eBay be about the closest I could get to fitting > the bill? Grateful for any recommendations. I had a Fuji GSW 6X9 and it had an amazing 65mm lens. If you feel you could live with a fixed lens camera, I highly recommend it.  SignatureStacey >> I'd like to get hold of a (relatively) modern medium format >> rangefinder camera - something similar, if it exists, to the Mamiya [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I had a Fuji GSW 6X9 and it had an amazing 65mm lens. If you feel you > could live with a fixed lens camera, I highly recommend it. Chalk me up as a rather satisfied user of both GW690III and GSW690III. The first one is much more 'general purpose', with a comparatively fast 90mm/3.5 lens (equivalent to 38mm focal distance on 35mm format). The GSW is wonderful for landscapes, if you want to shoot wide angle views (equivalent to 28mm). If you want something more 'telephoto' and suitable for portrait use, you'll have to check with the G690 with the interchangeable lenses and find a (very rare) 180mm lens. Regards from Athens, N.Fotis > I'd like to get hold of a (relatively) modern medium format > rangefinder camera - something similar, if it exists, to the Mamiya > "7" series cameras, but taking 6x9 negatives. > > Would a Fuji G690 off eBay be about the closest I could get to fitting > the bill? Grateful for any recommendations. The G690 as well as the GL690 should fit the bill. They take interchangeable lenses. They are rare and expensive. >> I'd like to get hold of a (relatively) modern medium format >> rangefinder camera - something similar, if it exists, to the Mamiya [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > The G690 as well as the GL690 should fit the bill. They take > interchangeable lenses. They are rare and expensive. Yes. Good point. The early Fuji 6x9s are rare, classic cameras. The GW690III and GSW690III were in production until as recently as a couple of years ago, and should be in both better supply and better condition. The GW690II and GSW690II can occasionally be had a tad cheaper. David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan > I'd like to get hold of a (relatively) modern medium format > rangefinder camera - something similar, if it exists, to the Mamiya > "7" series cameras, but taking 6x9 negatives. > > Would a Fuji G690 off eBay be about the closest I could get to fitting > the bill? Grateful for any recommendations. I would have 2 suggestions. 1) BEWARE E-BAY CAMERAS!!! 2) have you considered folders? I own 2 magnificent cameras each built around WWII time frame. An AGFA 6x6 and a Voigtlander 6x9. Each folds into a smaller package which literally fit into my pants pocket. The german lenses are absolutely first rate. The cameras are also conversation starters allowing me to photograph most people I meet. Quality folders can be had for $300.00 more or less, but remember #1 above. >I would have 2 suggestions. >1) BEWARE E-BAY CAMERAS!!! Agreed. You have to keep your wits about you when buying anything off eBay, although the crooks don't always have the last laugh, as you may have already seen from this: <http://www.amirtofangsazan.blogspot.com/> the "revenge" site put on-line by a victim who was sold a lap-top computer which didn't work. >2) have you considered folders? I own 2 magnificent cameras each built >around WWII time frame. An AGFA 6x6 and a Voigtlander 6x9. Each folds >into a smaller package which literally fit into my pants pocket. Yes, I have considered folders, but in view of their age, and that their most common point of failure (the bellows) doesn't improve over time, I decided to go for something more modern. >>2) have you considered folders? I own 2 magnificent cameras each built >>around WWII time frame. An AGFA 6x6 and a Voigtlander 6x9. Each folds [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > their most common point of failure (the bellows) doesn't improve over > time, I decided to go for something more modern. The other problem 6X9 folders suffer from is film flatness issues. I like the 6X4.5 and 6X6 folders but the 6X9 folders just don't perfom like you'd expect them to. SignatureStacey > >>2) have you considered folders? I own 2 magnificent cameras each built > >>around WWII time frame. An AGFA 6x6 and a Voigtlander 6x9. Each folds [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the 6X4.5 and 6X6 folders but the 6X9 folders just don't perfom like you'd > expect them to. Yep: that's where the Fujica RFs really have the folders beat. The Fuji lenses are better than anything I'm aware of on a folder, but the fact that they _really_ keep the film flat is probably the biggest factor in why they can make so much sharper pictures than the folders. I still remember fondly a Voigtlander 6x9 though, and wish I could remember where I've put it - but that's probably just nostalgia talking. Peter > "Stacey" <fotocord@yahoo.com> wrote in message >> The other problem 6X9 folders suffer from is film flatness issues. I like >> the 6X4.5 and 6X6 folders but the 6X9 folders just don't perfom like [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > that they _really_ keep the film flat is probably the biggest factor in > why they can make so much sharper pictures than the folders. Yep. The other issue is most folders use front cell focusing lenses which don't really work that great at infinity. Like I said the 6X4.5's work good because they all use 6X6 format lenses therefor have less film to cover, so the corners are good plus they hold the film much flatter. I can get a sharper 11X14 from a 6X4.5 folder than I ever was able to get from a 6X9 one. Those 6X9 folders were really made for contact prints, which were popular when they were being made. SignatureStacey [SNIP] > I can get a sharper 11X14 from a 6X4.5 folder than I ever was able to > get from a 6X9 one. My only 645 folder is a Fujica GS645 - so I'm not surprised when that beats a 6x9 folder (though not my 6x9 RFs, not by a long way). How do you rate your Ikonta 645 folder (I think I remember that's what you have) against newer something like the Fujica GS? Peter > [SNIP] >> I can get a sharper 11X14 from a 6X4.5 folder than I ever was able to > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > your Ikonta 645 folder (I think I remember that's what you have) against > newer something like the Fujica GS? From f8 to f11 it's probably pretty close with a tessar sample except infinity isn't great. I like the little kodak duo-620 as it uses helical focusing so infinity is sharp, the only problems are uncoated optics and 620 film. I also have an old welta tessar 6X4.5 with a coupled rangefinder and bed focusing like a 4X5 camera, again the uncoated optics are the only real issue it has once I replaced the ratty bellows. SignatureStacey > > [SNIP] > >> I can get a sharper 11X14 from a 6X4.5 folder than I ever was able to > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > beats a 6x9 folder (though not my 6x9 RFs, not by a long way). How do > > you rate your Ikonta 645 folder (I think I remember that's what you have)> > against newer something like the Fujica GS? > From f8 to f11 it's probably pretty close with a tessar sample except > infinity isn't great. I like the little kodak duo-620 as it uses helical > focusing so infinity is sharp, the only problems are uncoated optics and > 620 film. I also have an old welta tessar 6X4.5 with a coupled rangefinder > and bed focusing like a 4X5 camera, again the uncoated optics are the only > real issue it has once I replaced the ratty bellows. Thanks - interesting. One of the reasons (not the only one) that of the two 6x9 folders I had I prefered the Voigtlander was that it had bed focussing, while the Agfa was front cell. If I found something like that old Voigtlander in 645 or 6x6 I'd be rather tempted... Peter > Thanks - interesting. One of the reasons (not the only one) that of the > two 6x9 folders I had I prefered the Voigtlander was that it had bed > focussing, > while the Agfa was front cell. If I found something like that old > Voigtlander in 645 or 6x6 I'd be rather tempted... http://www.certo6.com/cam/welta.html This is close to the welta I have except mine is 6X4.5 only.. It's a "weltur" like these are. Also the soviet "Iskra" is a good user with a helical focusing 4 element "tessar" and a coupled rangefinder.. SignatureStacey So far my Voigtlander Bessa 6x9 which I got at Brimfield in July isn't too bad in the corners. http://www.hemenway.com/Bessa_1.jpg Some test photos on Plus-X, D-76. http://www.half-fast.com/Bessa1/ If I had the $$$, I'd go for that Fuji! Jim >>>>2) have you considered folders? I own 2 magnificent cameras each built >>>>around WWII time frame. An AGFA 6x6 and a Voigtlander 6x9. Each folds [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Peter > >>2) have you considered folders? I own 2 magnificent cameras each built > >>around WWII time frame. An AGFA 6x6 and a Voigtlander 6x9. Each folds [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the 6X4.5 and 6X6 folders but the 6X9 folders just don't perfom like you'd > expect them to. Is this film flatness problem in 6x9 folders caused by the opening of the bellows creating suction that pulls the film out of place? If it were a characteristic of the 6x9 size only then we would see the same problem in fixed 6x9 cameras such as the Fujis. If film is wound on just before the shot using a folder then would the problem largely disappear? Wow! All of the things I just learned. Guess my magnificent folders aren't so wonderful after all. Seriously though that's why there are choices. Not everything works for everyone. If everyone agreed with my choices then people would stop thinking I'm quirky and I wouldn't like that. I might suggest though that someone making buying decisions actually try the things they're comparing. In my opinion most magazine writers are posers. Bellows do leak eventually and film plate springs do weaken. That is true; but each are repairable. lenses? Zeiss, Voightlander and Agfa are legends and easily equal to anything produced...by anyone...anything! Not covering the edges? Huh? "Whatchu talkin about Willis?" Folders are OLD. With anything old stuff does wear out and stuff does break. Fortunately there are still a handful of craftsman specializing in repairs of these cameras. I just had my Voigtlander 6x9 adjusted and bellows replaced (had lots o tape on the corners). As the camera is about 60 years old the longevity was pretty darn good. The repairs came in under 100.00 and I figure it's good for another 60 years. Long enough for me. No negative flatness issues, no light leakage, no sharpness problems...edges or elsewhere. Still have folks approach me just about every time I open it with stories about their aunt, or father, or someone "Who owned a camera a lot like that one." good luck on your decision Dick > > >>2) have you considered folders? I own 2 magnificent cameras each built > > >>around WWII time frame. An AGFA 6x6 and a Voigtlander 6x9. Each folds [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > just before the shot using a folder then would the problem largely > disappear? [SNIP] > I just had my Voigtlander 6x9 adjusted and bellows replaced > (had lots o tape on the corners). As the camera is about 60 years [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > their aunt, or father, or someone "Who owned a camera a lot like > that one." I had two 6x9 folders that I used 20+ years ago - one an Agfa that my grandmother gave me and the other a Voigtlander that I bought. Neither gave results quite up with my Fujica 6x9 RFs (or the 6x9 'system' that I use most often: Horseman RFBs on Arca Swiss monorails) but for the size and weight they were still very nice cameras, giving results tha tbelied their ages. And the nostalgia effect you speak of is very real, and fun. I wish I could find that Voigtlander, it must be here or at my mother's house somewhere... Peter > Not covering the edges? Huh? "Whatchu talkin about Willis?" "covering the edges" and being sharp in the corners isn't the same thing. 6X9 format is pushing what a 105mm tessar type lens can deal with and even stopped way down, the corners just aren't that sharp. Especially at longer distances which the front cell focusing lenses weren't optimized for. Also the film gate on these really isn't a machined "gate" like the later fuji uses, so flatness is an issue. Same is true for the 6X6 folders and their 75mm tessar optics, it's why the 6X4.5 folders seem to work the best (especially the helical focusing type) and given the quality of modern film, grain isn't an issue like it was in the 1940-1950's. SignatureStacey >>I would have 2 suggestions. >>1) BEWARE E-BAY CAMERAS!!! > > Agreed. You have to keep your wits about you when buying anything off > eBay, although the crooks don't always have the last laugh, as you may Hello there, mine GSW690III was bought from Robert White in UK (an excellent dealer, most recommended). The GW690 III was bought from a www.photo.net user (I looked at the classifieds, since Robert White didn't have it anymore), this site (and I guess the Fred Miranda etc.) is much more tightly-controlled than the 'free for all' that has become Ebay. Expect to pay around 1000 USD for a very good fixed lens 6x9 Fuji 3rd generation camera (these show up occasionally in www.keh.com, I bought a lens cap from them and their service was impressive). You will need a light meter, these cameras are absolutely mechanic. The Mamiya 7 has a much better grip (having big palms helps much if you want to handhold these Fuji beasts, but these are incredibly light for their size). Personally, I feel somewhat 'different' when I use my Fuji compared to my Canon 1v (which plays the role of the light meter). Strangely enough, the Fujis seem subjectively to be nearly the same size as my 1v, and I say this is a great success - these cameras just don't feel big/heavy when you start using these. Personally, I feel these modern rangefinders are a very nice case of camera, given their design limitations (minimum focusing distance 1 meter, difficult to use with polarizing filters, and some other quirks). But for this price, you are getting essentially a wonderful lens with a free black box which carries 120/220 film ;-) I am sure you'll enjoy these cameras. Myself, I feel the GW690 is more 'general use' than the wideangle version. Cheers from hot Athens, (no, not the one in Ohio!) N.Fotis > I'd like to get hold of a (relatively) modern medium format > rangefinder camera - something similar, if it exists, to the Mamiya > "7" series cameras, but taking 6x9 negatives. > > Would a Fuji G690 off eBay be about the closest I could get to fitting > the bill? Grateful for any recommendations. My workhorse 6 x 9 is a Kodak Medalist II. It delivers superb 6 x 9 negatives, is small and portable, operates quickly, and doesn't cost the earth. Currently on eBay for $100 up. Regards, Marv |
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