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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Medium format / August 2006Need suggestions on buying a hand-held meter
i need to buy a hand-held meter because my new Rolleiflex gets problem on it's build-in meter. after searched for prices, i found that a hand-held meter with spot-metering capability is more expensive than one with only incident and average reflective metering capabilities. most of my works is outdoor and because my another SLR equip a build-in spot meter, so i think i've already used to using a spot meter. my question is, is there any suggestion and tip which can tech me using a incident and average reflective meter to do most jobs which usually accomplished by a spot meter. if so, i can save my dollars. thanks you very much. - woody > my question is, is there any suggestion and tip which can tech me using > a incident and average reflective meter to do most jobs which usually > accomplished by a spot meter. if so, i can save my dollars. A spot meter is the _only_ way to actually measure the intensities in the scene that the camera will actually project onto the film. Everything else is a guessing game. (Incident metering is fine if, and only if, the whole scene is evenly illuminated (rare in landscape and cityscape/architectural work), and averaging reflected metering is simply completely random, since you don't really know what the meter is looking at.) Using a "fat spot" meter as an averaging meter often works because you know what the meter is looking at. David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan > > my question is, is there any suggestion and tip which can tech me using > > a incident and average reflective meter to do most jobs which usually [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Using a "fat spot" meter as an averaging meter often works because you know > what the meter is looking at. can i deduce that you think spot meter is not substitutable ? >> my question is, is there any suggestion and tip which can tech me using >> a incident and average reflective meter to do most jobs which usually [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > David J. Littleboy > Tokyo, Japan It is surprising however the number of times an incident reading leads to exactly the same camera settings as careful spot metering. The caveat of course is that you have to take your incident reading in the same lighting conditions as the scene you are photographing (i.e. if you're standing under a tree, looking out on a sunlit scene, walk out into the sunshine to take your reading). hth  SignatureJon ____________________________________________ jondotrogersatntlworlddotcom ============================================ >> Using a "fat spot" meter as an averaging meter often works because you >> know >> what the meter is looking at. >> > It is surprising however the number of times an incident reading leads to > exactly the same camera settings as careful spot metering. Well, yes. When you decide that you don't want to compromise the mid tones for either the shadows or the highlights, that's what you get. In the easy cases, though, it's not "careful spot metering", but "one spot reading from an appropriate mid tone", which, since you can do it from the camera position, is easier than taking an incident reading. Of course, the incident meter doesn't give you any means whatsoever for determining whether you want to compromise the mid tone exposure for the shadows or highlights; a spot meter tells you exactly at what zones the tones in the scene will be rendered for a given exposure. > The caveat of course is that you have to take your incident reading in > the same lighting conditions as the scene you are photographing (i.e. if > you're standing under a tree, looking out on a sunlit scene, walk out > into the sunshine to take your reading). If you want to control how the sky and clouds are rendered, tell us how to do that with an incident meter<g>? http://www.pbase.com/davidjl/image/63038565/large Tell us how an incident meter is going to be useful in the above scene? (Even if it were, the MIT sailing pavilion is locked at 8:00am, and you'd have to swim in the Charles to get there to take a reading...) Landscapes often simply don't have a subject that requires spot-on exposure, rather they have sky and clouds that need to be nailed at the expense of the foreground. David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan >>> Using a "fat spot" meter as an averaging meter often works because you >>> know [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > shadows or highlights; a spot meter tells you exactly at what zones the > tones in the scene will be rendered for a given exposure. You're right of course. I usually end up (when time permits) taking "semi-spot" readings using the Tele attachment on my Gossen meter (gives a 7.5 degree reading). I often, just out of interest really, take an incident reading afterwards, which often, but not always) gives the same result. >> The caveat of course is that you have to take your incident reading in >> the same lighting conditions as the scene you are photographing (i.e. if [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > If you want to control how the sky and clouds are rendered, tell us how to > do that with an incident meter<g>? Can't be done of course....but then I don't think that any single method will ever be suitable for all eventualities. > http://www.pbase.com/davidjl/image/63038565/large > > Tell us how an incident meter is going to be useful in the above scene? > (Even if it were, the MIT sailing pavilion is locked at 8:00am, and you'd > have to swim in the Charles to get there to take a reading...) See above. I'm sure someone makes a waterproof meter though. Waterproof photographers are harder to find. > Landscapes often simply don't have a subject that requires spot-on exposure, > rather they have sky and clouds that need to be nailed at the expense of the > foreground. Agreed, although when I used to do wedding photography (many years ago) I used nothing but incident readings. I found that this method would always render (on colour negative stock) the bride's whites dress and the groom's dark suit OK. I would very seldom get burned out sky in the background as a result. SignatureJon ____________________________________________ jondotrogersatntlworlddotcom ============================================ : >>> Using a "fat spot" meter as an averaging meter often works because you : >>> know [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] : > shadows or highlights; a spot meter tells you exactly at what zones the : > tones in the scene will be rendered for a given exposure. : You're right of course. I usually end up (when time permits) taking : "semi-spot" readings using the Tele attachment on my Gossen meter (gives : a 7.5 degree reading). I often, just out of interest really, take an : incident reading afterwards, which often, but not always) gives the same : result. : >> The caveat of course is that you have to take your incident reading in : >> the same lighting conditions as the scene you are photographing (i.e. if [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] : > If you want to control how the sky and clouds are rendered, tell us how to : > do that with an incident meter<g>? : Can't be done of course....but then I don't think that any single method : will ever be suitable for all eventualities. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] : > (Even if it were, the MIT sailing pavilion is locked at 8:00am, and you'd : > have to swim in the Charles to get there to take a reading...) : See above. I'm sure someone makes a waterproof meter though. Waterproof : photographers are harder to find. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] : groom's dark suit OK. I would very seldom get burned out sky in the : background as a result. One of the few times I use an incident meter is when setting up strobes. I suppose I could use a spot but over the years I've gotten better and more consistant results with an incident meter. Signature------------------- Keep working millions on welfare depend on you >>>>Using a "fat spot" meter as an averaging meter often works because you >>>>know [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > See above. I'm sure someone makes a waterproof meter though. Waterproof > photographers are harder to find. Sekonic L-408 - Ambient, flash, flash w/pc cord, 5 deg spot, retractable dome for contrast measurement, water resistant. Second hand from KEH for $200 - $300. And you could always use a canoe, kayak, rowboat ... [SNIP] > > http://www.pbase.com/davidjl/image/63038565/large > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > See above. I'm sure someone makes a waterproof meter though. > Waterproof photographers are harder to find. LOL. Sekonic makes a fully waterproof meter, for underwater use... ;-) Peter Recently, David J. Littleboy <davidjl@gol.com> posted: > If you want to control how the sky and clouds are rendered, tell us > how to do that with an incident meter<g>? I believe the technique was referred to as "bracketing". ;-) Neil > http://www.pbase.com/davidjl/image/63038565/large > > Tell us how an incident meter is going to be useful in the above > scene? Point it away from the camera instead of toward to get what you have. SignaturedadiOH ____________________________ dadiOH's dandies v3.06... ...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that. Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico >> http://www.pbase.com/davidjl/image/63038565/large >> >> Tell us how an incident meter is going to be useful in the above >> scene? > > Point it away from the camera instead of toward to get what you have. ROFL. David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan > http://www.pbase.com/davidjl/image/63038565/large > > Tell us how an incident meter is going to be useful in the above > scene? The light at the camera is the same light as the scene unless the camera is under a shelter. Step away a bit and make a reading. Come on, it's really a no-brainer! Oh, and the picture in question is underexposed. >> http://www.pbase.com/davidjl/image/63038565/large >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The light at the camera is the same light as the scene unless the camera > is under a shelter. Step away a bit and make a reading. Wrong. Reflections from water, large light walls, and the like can make a large difference. > Come on, it's really a no-brainer! Oh, and the picture in question is > underexposed. It's not a no-brainer, and the picture isn't underexposed. Put an incident meter on the dock (or in the sun at the camera) and it'd make the dock look like it does at high noon even though it's early morning. That would be really stupid. With a spot meter, you look at the dock, decide what zone you want it, and place it there. Incident metering doesn't work if you want to represent what a scene looks like as opposed to what a catalog photographer wants to show to his clients. David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan > It is surprising however the number of times an incident reading leads to > exactly the same camera settings as careful spot metering. I always use both methods: if the spot method doesn't match my hand-held averaging meter I go back and redo the spot metering until it does [that's a joke, sort of, maybe]. IMO, spot metering is heavily oversold. Looking at a scene can say if it is high/medium/low contrast for picking development and a very complicated averaging scheme is all that is accomplished with spot metering. If I am spot metering I take a back up shot at what the old selenium meter indicates. The averaging shot is always usable, sometimes the spot metered one is better, but just as often it is worse. >> It is surprising however the number of times an incident reading leads to >> exactly the same camera settings as careful spot metering. > > I always use both methods: if the spot method doesn't > match my hand-held averaging meter I go back and redo the spot > metering until it does [that's a joke, sort of, maybe]. It really isn't a joke. An experienced photographer can make any number of readings until one coincides with his experience. :) > It is surprising however the number of times an incident reading leads to > exactly the same camera settings as careful spot metering. May I see your exhaustive comparisons? For slide film, outdoors, a spot meter is indispensible. Cheers, Alan Signature-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin -- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch. thanks for all your inputs. i've decided to buy a sekonic L558 spot/incide meter. it's in any matter not a cheap gear to me, but i think it would be of use. i personally quite often useing zone systems to anticipate the results before relase the shutter. thanks you again! - woody > thanks for all your inputs. i've decided to buy a sekonic L558 > spot/incide meter. it's in any matter not a cheap gear to me, but i > think it would be of use. i personally quite often useing zone systems > to anticipate the results before relase the shutter. Hi Woody, I have the 558 and it is a very good meter and not at all cheap. It can be a PITA when you use one camera that is 1/3 steps and another that is 1/2 steps (as I do between my Maxxum 9 and Hasselblad); but easy enough to switch between the two modes via a mode command. Cheers, Alan Signature-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin -- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch. > > thanks for all your inputs. i've decided to buy a sekonic L558 > > spot/incide meter. it's in any matter not a cheap gear to me, but i [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > that is 1/2 steps (as I do between my Maxxum 9 and Hasselblad); but easy > enough to switch between the two modes via a mode command. switching of the modes need to turn power down and power up ( with mode button on ), then again power down, power up. i interest what you said easy to switch 'mode command'. > Cheers, > Alan [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin > -- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch. > my question is, is there any suggestion and tip which can tech me using > a incident and average reflective meter to do most jobs which usually > accomplished by a spot meter. if so, i can save my dollars. > woody It is true that a true (1 degree) spotmeter can be readily substituted for many/most photographic applications. Meters with 10 degree angle of view attachments are a nice way to achieve what is done with Canon's Partial mode, for the most part. One place where there is NO substitute for good metering is in the studio where one is setting lights for product photography, where the printed media is the end purpose and one must control the total dynamic range to a narrower range of brightness than can be captured on film or digital. Anything else is guesswork! |
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