Then I'd lean towards the 645. 6x6 is pretty square -) Even squarer then
8x10. I'd only go 6x6 if you really want the square. The 645 once you add
the metering finder and maybe a grip is already a big package. The 6x6 is
that much bigger. I wouldn't call even the 645 small. OTOH if you can live
with just the waist level finder and no grip it's actually not that big.

Bronica ETRSI:

Leaf shutter on all lenses.
Backs and finders can be changed.
TTL flash with the flash module.
Fairly cheap today on the used market.

Bronica SQ-AI:
Same thing except 6x6 and a bit more money.
It's also heavier.

I see no reason to go with the older systems. They aren't that much cheaper.
They are of course older.

Tamron the company that made Bronica cameras is still kicking but they've
stopped new production of all MF cameras. OTOH things are so cheap now you
could buy two of everything used and still pay less then buying one would
have cost you new.

Nick

The main thing is 6x6 is croppable to Vert or Horz.
Its was used a lot by magazines for that reason. If the film is sharp
and the image will be uncropped then yes it represents a much larger
foot print than 6.45 With SQ the relative size of the cameras is about
the same so 6x6 can be hand held.

There are probably people that service the cameras although Bronica
is now out of business.

Define "cheap".

It's a 3x increase in film area.  That's worth something.

Why not consider used Pentax or Mamiya.  They're
still around, and accessories are plentiful on the used
market or new, for that matter.

I picked up a used Pentax 67, with normal lens and
TTL prsim in nice condition, for $430 on eBay.

A beautiful wide angle lens for this camera will set
you back another $400 or so (used, of course.)
I'm thinking 55 mm or 45 mm f/4.

rafe b
www.terrapinphoto.com

Used Hasselblad.

I'm going to make another recommendation:  Hasselblad.  Yep.  Just bought
one for $800, too much?  500CM, two backs, prism, old style compendium,
nifty 'blad case with rails that bodies will mount on to, and a copy of
Ernst Wilde's excellent book, The Hasselblad Way.  Much more reliable than
some others I could name.  And will keep running long after the electronic
cameras Bronica Mamiya 645 etc. are dead due to no parts or the companies
Bronica again have folder their tents.  Since then I added an adapter to use
my 52mm Nikon filters another back, a Polaroid back and some close-up
mutars.

If you must buy Russian, buy a Kiev 66 not an 88, you won;t get the
interchangeable backs but the camera is much easier to work on and the build
quality is better.

Other MF?
RB-67, mechanical, not electronic, see everything I said about 'blad, note
tho' that RB's are heavy.  Studio workhorses look out for bodies and 180's
that are worn out, other lenses not so used safer to buy unseen.

Rapid Omega, not a system but there are 3 readily available lenses.  Great
film transport, good for aerials.

Mamiya C TLR's I own three bodies, four viewfinders and four lenses, gave
about $500-$600 have used it for 12 years (one body is now jammed, will
probably end up a donor for the other C-220 someday.

Yashica and Yashicamat.  The 124G is the one everyone wants but I used to
have a Yashica A and a Yashica C, they use a red window film advance, very
easy and the A even required separate cocking.  Had a very nice iris and
nice bokeh.  Manual film advance and shutter cocking means simple and easy
to work on.

The only Bronica worth having is the S2-A, film advance problems that
plagued the C, S, and S2 were eliminated, everything since is electronic.  I
never liked mine much but tastes vary.

Kowa 6, my favorite is the 6MM, did not care for the Six or the Super near
so much, but the Super has interchangeable backs including Polaroid.  Lens
selection is pretty good.

I can't comment on the Bronica, but I have owned Kiev 88 and 60, if you want to
go Kiev, the Kiev 60 as sold by Kiev Camera in Atlanta it's a good start. He
gets about $260 for a standard Kiev 60 kit on eBay.
If I was to go back and do it all over I would start with  a Mamiya M645, I have
one of these now and they're a very handy little camera, not too expensive (
bordering on damn cheap in fact) and I believe it to be more reliable than the
Kiev cameras. I bought my M645 on eBay in pieces and it went this way: body
$65, AE eye level finder $75, 80mm lens $100 (locally), handy trigger grip $25.
Also added a couple 120 film inserts for about $20 each.
It's a very nice kit and with the addition of an adapter I can use my P6 mount
CZJ lenses on it.

fivefourteen apparently said,on my timestamp of 7/01/2006 3:39 AM:

From previous comments here and in a few other places, Kievs seem
not to be as good value as they used to be.  Simply because on epay
nowadays medium format gear is in some cases cheaper than 35mm!
I've set myself up with a rb67 for less than it'd have cost me to
gear up with say a Nikon F5.  Hey, a rb67 is "small" compared
to 8X10!  :)

This to say: consider sticking with models that are still supported
and from well known brands.  Like a Mamiya 645 or even an old
Hasselblad.  Careful with the Hassies though: the lenses are still
very expensive.  I'd give the M645 or a 1000S a try. Pentax also
made some very good 645 models.

Bronicas are very good but with the cameras not being made
anymore you may eventually have a maintenance problem in your
hands.  Although I suspect someone may well step in and do it as
a hobby or sideshow.

A TLR is also an option if you don't want any complexity, just
simple P&S.  If you find a Yashicamat124G, it even has metering
IIRC.  They go on ebay for around $250 when in good nick.
Very light cameras if weight is a concern.  If you find one, have
it checked out for light leakage between the lenses: if it has
been abused this could be a problem.

Same goes for any cameras with removable backs: most likely the
light seals would have gone.  Many folks sell their gear on epay
for a song because of this problem, unaware that it is dirt easy
to fix.  Take advantage and do the fixing yourself?

As for the diff between 645 and 6x6: hey, there's a lot more
difference between those two and anything else than between them.
So quit worrying and go for the one that gets you better value.
That's as far as I'll weigh in on the "square vs everything else"
argument...

Used Hasselblad.

Used Hasselblad.

We need a price limit.  Most used MF cameras are relatively inexpensive
these days, with the exception of certain rangefinders.  You can get a
basic Hasselblad setup for $500.

Used Hasselblad.

HOLGA!

Well, for MF "point and shoot" I really, really like the Mamaiya 7II and the
lenses are super sharp and auto exposure thats dead on. I use both
Hasselblad 500 series and RolleiFlex Tlr's (3,5 Planar F) and for 6x6 on the
go I prefer the RolleiFlex as it gives up nothing to the Hasselblad in
sharpness but maybe a little in contrast which can be positive in my
opinion. Sure the Hasselblad is more versatile but I can easily adapt to the
only one lens issue with the Rollei--I actually have several Rollei TLR's
plus several Tele models (135 mm Zeiss Sonnar). I have a first class user
with Zeiss Planar 3,5, fully serviced by Harry Fleenor and a Maxwell Split
Image focus screen installed and the camera adjusted for it--It doesn't get
any better!! $700
Joseph Burke

No.

Do NOT, I repeat do NOT buy a K88. Been there and those are THE most
unreliable camera ever made. The Kiev 60 isn't awful but it too can have
it's share of issues. The glass is OK but much of it isn't that great. Old
designs with poor QC but there are a few exceptions like the 180mm sonnar,
the 30mm fisheye, the 55mm shift arsat etc.

All that said, get the old M645 mamiya. It's as cheap as a Kiew is now and
is a GREAT system. Reliable, good glass and just works like it should.

Well, you couldn't make two crappier choices...

If a small and P&S are your prime objectives, I wonder if one of those MF
rangefinder cameras may be fit-for-purpose e.g. Fuji or the like.

Cheers.

http://www.mamiya.com/compare.asp?id=4&id2=129&id3=1110

Mamiya goes over the basic differences between each format.

I have personally used the following cameras.

Mamiya C220 TLR  6X6 inexpensive to get into, has about four lenses,
leaf shutter lenses, Not a point and shoot. 12 frames per roll of 12o film.

Hasablad C500 SLR 6X6 leaf shutter lens older bodies and lenes are
inexpensive.  Newer bodies with motor drive are holding there prices. 12
frames per roll of 120

Bronica ETRSI 645 body leaf shutter lenes.  Bronica has stopped making
medium format cameras in 2005, so the prices have dropped a lot. By law
  Bronica has to supply parts and repair for seven years. 15 frames per
roll of 120

Pentax 645N  Auto focus, auto exposure with three metering modes. Focal
Plane shutter. A very long list of lenes from 35mm thru 400mm autofocus
 16 frames per roll of 120  The only drawbacks to this camera are 1/60
of a second flash sync and you cannot remove the backs in the middle of
a roll of film.  I still use this camera which is about the size of a
Nikon F4 camera and has a built in motor drive.  I can use it slow in
the studio or fast in the field like a 35mm.  This is a great camera.

Hi All,

Thanks for the advice, I don't want to spend alot of money, say $300
for a basic system. I saw some pentax 645 or mamiya 645 for that price
on Ebay. I imagine they are about the same quality, splitting hairs. I
have not used them but have used the p67 and the mommy rb,6 and 7 and
they are nice little beasts.

I don't want to chunk down $1000 bucks for a decent digital slr, even
then I still find the quality somewhat ok, I like the look of film
better anyways.

Often times, I find interesting subjects but don't have my 8x10 and its
time for me to get back to MF. At least I can wear those MF like a cool
necklace :).
Thanks all and keep shooting.

Ann

No.

For "point and shoot" fun,   the Fuji GA645 Zi  is about as close to MF P&S
as you will ever get.
They go for about $800 used.     Autofocus, to boot.   Great street MF
camera,  and it is small, inconspicous.

Leaf shutter great for fill flash, and  built in flash, which never gets red
eye, from my experience, is fine for snaps, eliminating the need for a big
bulky flash unit,  unless you want better versatility with flash, of course,
then get a Vivitar or something.  Also,  the viewfinder has a vertical
orientation.  The metering,   though not TTL,  is excellent, I find.   Lens,
though not fast,  is very sharp,  55mm - 90mm zoom range,  which is about
35 - 50 on a 35mm camera.   It will also imprint shooting data on frames,
but I haven't figured out how to configure the camera to do this.  Other
SLR-like features,  AEL, Exposure bracketing are possible, and film loads
from the back,  llike a 35mm camera, and, in fact,  it looks like a 35mm
point and shoot, though a little bigger than the average one.

Patrick