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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Medium format / December 2004

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Graflex?

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Ralf R. Radermacher - 13 Dec 2004 21:28 GMT
The Mamiya  645 Pro I bought this summer is boring me. Too much plastic,
no soul. Besides, 645 on an Epson flatbed doesn't exactly blow me away.

Noticed I've never had a view camera and 6x9 this might be fun. Just
seen a Graflex Century on... well... you know where.

Any comments, suggestions, do's or dont's? Can it be used with just any
LF optics provided they have a shutter, like those made for a Technika
etc.?

Ralf

Signature

Ralf R. Radermacher  -  DL9KCG  -  Köln/Cologne, Germany
private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de
manual cameras and photo galleries - updated April 29, 2004
Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses

J - 13 Dec 2004 22:51 GMT
> The Mamiya  645 Pro I bought this summer is boring me. Too much plastic,
> no soul. Besides, 645 on an Epson flatbed doesn't exactly blow me away.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Ralf

Sure, but the rangefinder has to be matched to the lens focal length or it
won't correctly find the range. The Graflexes with film plane shutter can
use lenses without a shutter. Don't forget your darkslide!

-j
Ralf R. Radermacher - 13 Dec 2004 23:09 GMT
> Sure, but the rangefinder has to be matched to the lens focal length or it
> won't correctly find the range.

But it is still possible to focus using the ground glass, isn't it?

Ralf

Signature

Ralf R. Radermacher  -  DL9KCG  -  Köln/Cologne, Germany
private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de
manual cameras and photo galleries - updated April 29, 2004
Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses

J - 14 Dec 2004 19:02 GMT
> > Sure, but the rangefinder has to be matched to the lens focal length or it
> > won't correctly find the range.
>
> But it is still possible to focus using the ground glass, isn't it?
>
> Ralf

Of course.

-j
Raoul - 14 Dec 2004 12:42 GMT
> > The Mamiya  645 Pro I bought this summer is boring me. Too much plastic,
> > no soul. Besides, 645 on an Epson flatbed doesn't exactly blow me away.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> won't correctly find the range. The Graflexes with film plane shutter can
> use lenses without a shutter. Don't forget your darkslide!

The later model top rangefinder models need matching cams (a minor
problem) but the older side rangefinder models can be individually
adjusted. Top rangefinder models I beleve are just available in 4x5.

It is important to note that a Speed or Crown Graphic really isn't a
view camera. You can have ground glass focussing but the movements you
would expect with a view camera (or a field camera like a Technika)
just aren't there.

Also remember that a 6x9 Graphic will also need a roll film back.  To
my knowledge, there are only two emulsions avaialbe in 6x9 sheet film.
Yes, larger film can be cut down but that is a collossal hassle for the
return on investment- both in cost of film and time. Roll film backs
are best used with a Graflok back although I have adapted a roll film
back to my spring back Graphic. It can be done with a minimum of fuss
but the feature of easily changeable backs is lost because the roll
film back needs to be attached with screws.

The Century Graphic has small lensboards so you won't be able to use a
shutter much larger than a Copal 0 If you get a Speed Graphic, you can
use barrel lenses.  I have a nice Tominon 120 from a Poloroid copy
camera I am using sans the larger shutter on my Speed Graphic.

I was able to put mine together fairly cheaply and it works well, It is
kind of a clunky camera but I like it.  I enjoy Graphic cameras and
have a small collection of them.

raoul
Rich Shepard - 15 Dec 2004 02:27 GMT
> Also remember that a 6x9 Graphic will also need a roll film back.  To
> my knowledge, there are only two emulsions avaialbe in 6x9 sheet film.

raoul,

 J&C Photography has a variety of good quality films in various roll and
sheet sizes.

Rich
Raoul - 15 Dec 2004 03:14 GMT
> > Also remember that a 6x9 Graphic will also need a roll film back.  To
> > my knowledge, there are only two emulsions avaialbe in 6x9 sheet film.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>   J&C Photography has a variety of good quality films in various roll and
> sheet sizes.

Yep, them's the two emultions I'm talking about. Bergger and J&C.
There is also Illford HP5 which is available elsewhere.

> Rich
Shelley - 14 Dec 2004 00:10 GMT
If you are going for a view camera I'd suggest going 4x5 rather than 6x9.
You can always crop the 4x5 or buy a 6x9 roll film back. There is
surprisingly little difference in the size and weight of 6x9 compared to 4x5
and I've always thought that if you're going to to to the trouble of
carrying and using a view camera you might as well at least have the
potential to get the biggest possible negative from it. You'll almost
certainly see an improvement in the scans from your flat bed with either 6x9
or 4x5 but more so with 4x5.

I've never used any of the various Graflex cameras so I can't comment on
them. I know they have limited movements and the lenses that came with them
probably aren't quite the equal of today's lenses but many people use and
like them. They can be a relatively inexpensive introduction to large format
photography (I realize that 6x9 is medium format but the camera is a scaled
down large format camera).

You can probably find additional information about this particular camera by
checking the archives at www.largeformatphotography.info.

> The Mamiya  645 Pro I bought this summer is boring me. Too much plastic,
> no soul. Besides, 645 on an Epson flatbed doesn't exactly blow me away.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Ralf
Ralf R. Radermacher - 14 Dec 2004 01:02 GMT
> You can probably find additional information about this particular camera by
> checking the archives at www.largeformatphotography.info.

Oh, thanks. Didn't know this one. As far as the Graflex goes, I've found
www.graflex.org quite helpful.

Ralf

Signature

Ralf R. Radermacher  -  DL9KCG  -  Köln/Cologne, Germany
private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de
manual cameras and photo galleries - updated April 29, 2004
Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses

Marv Soloff - 14 Dec 2004 02:26 GMT
Owning a dozen assorted Graflex and Graphic cameras, I can safely say
that they are fun, still cheap to own and operate and easy to fix - more
like a gun or power tool - big robust parts, easy access, etc.
Empty out the Graflex org website or do searches on the web.  If your
question is Graflex related, someone has already done it. And two dozen
people have commented on it. Fast, cheap, reliable fun.

Regards,

Marv

> The Mamiya  645 Pro I bought this summer is boring me. Too much plastic,
> no soul. Besides, 645 on an Epson flatbed doesn't exactly blow me away.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Ralf
Bandicoot - 14 Dec 2004 02:28 GMT
> The Mamiya  645 Pro I bought this summer is boring me. Too much plastic,
> no soul. Besides, 645 on an Epson flatbed doesn't exactly blow me away.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> LF optics provided they have a shutter, like those made for a Technika
> etc.?

Hi Ralf,

I use a (slightly modified) Century Graphic a lot.  I use it as a more
portable version of a view camera, since I also have a 6x9 (and a 4x5)
Arca-Swiss.  The Century is much easier to travel with, but the extension
and the movements are - not surprisingly - much less than with a monorail.
Because I use it this way, I'm always focusing on the ground glass, so don't
bother with setting up a rangefinder on it.  It takes any 'baby Graflok'
fitting back, so you aren't limited to Graflex ones: you can use Arca,
Horseman, Wista, etc., and also the Mamiya RB backs.

Yes, you can use 'ordinary' LF optics.  However, the Century lensboard is
very small, so some lenses with large shutters won't fit.  Most of the ones
you'll be likely to want to use on it for 6x7 or 6x9 are in a Copal 0 anyway
though, so no problem.

Also, a few lenses with really big rear elements won't fit through the
lensboard opening - for some you can get round this by removing the rear
cell, fitting the lensboard, and then screwing the rear cell back on from
behind, through the back opening.  This isn't exactly convenient, but it's
the price of portability: I have a Schneider SA 38mm XL which can only be
fitted to the Century this way, but once it is fitted it works very well.

The extension is about 26cm (from memory), but that's enough for quite a lot
of lenses, and there are always tele designs if you want longer: I have
180mm and 240mm tele-xenars that both work well.

The pop-up 'shade' around the GG won't be much help with focusing in bright
light, so you'll want a dark cloth - I attached Velcro to the body which
then holds a lightweight darkcloth.  Or you can use a reflex viewer - I have
a Horseman one the I use mostly with the Arca, but it also works well on the
Century.

Notable niggles:

No rotating back so for portrait format you have to turn it on its side.
This wouldn't matter except that there is a lot less cross front than there
is rise, so for portrait format shots you get very little front rise.

No front swing, so you have no front tilt when doing verticals.

No movements at all on the back - the price of light weight portability, as
far as I'm concerned.

The back opening isn't really a full 6x9 - but then most RFBs aren't anyway.
Graflex "6x9" backs are about 56mm x 82mm, which is fine with me.

Using it with a Polaroid back is a little inconvenient: the Polaroid back
cannot physically put the film plane in teh same place as it is with a
normal back, so you have either to focus with the normal GG and then shift
the lens back a set amount, or else focus on a special GG that matches the
Polaroid back (remembering to re-focus agaion when you take the shot on
'real' film.)  I can live with this.

If you get Graflex RFBs, make sure you get the ones with the needle-rollers
either side of the film gate, as these keep the film flatter (actually,
they're very good).  (Almost?) All the lever wind backs have these rollers,
most of the knob wind ones don't.  (But the knob wind 6x9 has a slightly
longer gate, I'm told.)

The Century Graphics all have a baby Graflok fitting back moulded in.  Other
6x9 sized Graphics and Speed Graphics don't necessarily: avoid the Graflex
back and plain spring back ones, as they won't take a 'normal' RFB.  Note
that RFBs made for the 'international' back on a 4x5 camera don't fit this
(or any 6x9 camera) - this is the full sized Graflok back, and the 6x9s all
use the baby Graflok.

Lenses I use on my Century are the aforementioned 38, 180, and 240mm ones,
plus 47, 65, 80, 100, and 150.  This is a more comprehensive kit than one
really needs, but what can I say?   ;-)

I like my Century, and I use it a lot.  In fact, it is often my main MF kit
when flying, since it is much lighter and takes up less space than my 6x6
SLR.  (I've just bought a 6x9 rangefinder, so that may change, but I think
probably not, since the Century will still be a better landscape camera,
even if I want the rangefinder in town.)

Any specifics that I can  _try_  to answer, just post.

Peter
Ralf R. Radermacher - 14 Dec 2004 13:29 GMT
> I use a (slightly modified) Century Graphic a lot.  I use it as a more
> portable version of a view camera...

Thanks a lot, guys and gals. Great response, lots of good points and
really helpful.

r.p.e.mf at its best.  :-)

Ralf

Signature

Ralf R. Radermacher  -  DL9KCG  -  Köln/Cologne, Germany
private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de
manual cameras and photo galleries - updated April 29, 2004
Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses

Ralf R. Radermacher - 14 Dec 2004 17:41 GMT
OK, tried to send this as an email twice today, but I'm apparently too
stupid to to understand the trick about your email address. So, here
goes:

> Any specifics that I can  _try_  to answer, just post.

Thanks a lot, Peter. I'll just work my way through this whole lot of
info and then go on from there. :-)

This is what got the whole thing rolling:

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=3860107950

Do you think this is a reasonable offer? Would it probably even warrant
using the 'buy it now' option?

Ralf

Signature

Ralf R. Radermacher  -  DL9KCG  -  Köln/Cologne, Germany
private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de
manual cameras and photo galleries - updated April 29, 2004
Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses

Stacey - 15 Dec 2004 00:44 GMT
> Do you think this is a reasonable offer? Would it probably even warrant
> using the 'buy it now' option?

IMHO part of the problem is the tilt is in a useless direction. You need
down tilt not up tilt in most situations. Seriously, if you're toying with
this idea, go ahead and get a 4X5. It's less of a hassle to use, MUCH
better quality and just a better choice, again IMHO.

Signature


 Stacey

Bandicoot - 15 Dec 2004 04:10 GMT
> > Do you think this is a reasonable offer? Would it probably even warrant
> > using the 'buy it now' option?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> this idea, go ahead and get a 4X5. It's less of a hassle to use, MUCH
> better quality and just a better choice, again IMHO.

The idea is that you use the drop bed, then rise to get the lensboard
centred again, and what was back tilt now makes the standard vertical -
leaving you free to tilt forward as required.  All a bit of a palaver, but
it works - except with extreme short FLs where the lens is on the bit of the
rail that sits inside the body and so doesn't drop.  Of course, this also
means that you can't have rise and tilt at the same time.

Peter
Stacey - 15 Dec 2004 05:18 GMT
> "Stacey" <fotocord@yahoo.com> wrote in message

>> IMHO part of the problem is the tilt is in a useless direction. You need
>> down tilt not up tilt in most situations. Seriously, if you're toying
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> leaving you free to tilt forward as required.  All a bit of a palaver, but
> it works -

That's the whole problem to me, everything about the camera seems like a
fight trying to make a press sheet film camera work as a roll film medium
format landscape camera.

> except with extreme short FLs where the lens is on the bit of
> the
> rail that sits inside the body and so doesn't drop.

I guess that's why I finally gave up trying to use this camera. I like wide
lenses and even using a 65mm is too much of a PITA..

Signature


 Stacey

Bandicoot - 15 Dec 2004 14:30 GMT
> > "Stacey" <fotocord@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> >> IMHO part of the problem is the tilt is in a useless direction. You
> >> need down tilt not up tilt in most situations. Seriously, if you're
toying
> >> with this idea, go ahead and get a 4X5. It's less of a hassle to use,
> >> MUCH better quality and just a better choice, again IMHO.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> a fight trying to make a press sheet film camera work as a roll film
> medium format landscape camera.

Well, that's true.  But then that's also why it's so much cheaper, and
lighter, than a full fledged technical camera.  Sure a Linhof or Horseman
would be more flexible, but I'd lose the weight and cost advantages of the
Century.  (And I do have that monorail for when I need more movements.)

> > except with extreme short FLs where the lens is on the bit of
> > the rail that sits inside the body and so doesn't drop.
>
> I guess that's why I finally gave up trying to use this camera. I like wide
> lenses and even using a 65mm is too much of a PITA..

I don't find a 65mm much problem, though the 47 is a little more of one.
The 38 is only a nuisance to fit, once in it is no problem.  You can do a
lot of mild hacking with a Century: a couple of slots routed in the top of
the body let you have (a bit of) front rise with wider lenses than
otherwise.  I can also see how easy it would be to fabricate new aluminium
pieces for the front standard that would allow front tilt without moving the
bed, or when the lens is on the 'body part' of the rail.  I haven't done
that yet, but I probably will some time.

No, it's not the ideal 6x9 field camera, but for the money (and the weight)
you can do an awful lot with it.

Peter
Bandicoot - 15 Dec 2004 04:05 GMT
> > Any specifics that I can  _try_  to answer, just post.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Do you think this is a reasonable offer? Would it probably even warrant
> using the 'buy it now' option?

Looks like quite a nice one, and not a bad price - you might get cheaper if
you wait, but then you might not want to wait.  "Buy it now" looks a little
steep to me though.

The 6x6 back included is the knob wind type, and the 6x9 one I can't tell
from the pictures or from my (limited) understanding of the description, so
I expect it is too - this means they  _probably_  don't have the film
flatness rollers.  The 101mm Kodak lens is supposed to be one of the nicest
of the original lenses for the Century: I had one and wasn't very happy with
it, as mine seemd to have very low contrast, but that doesn't reflect the
majority view so maybe mine was a bad example - I now use a Rodenstock 100mm
f5.6 Sironar-N as the 'standard' lens and it is excellent.

This one does look as if it is in good condition (apart from the chip in the
GG, and this is not unusual) and you get a full kit, with lens and two
backs.  That makes it a pretty good place to start, though you might get a
better price by waiting and/or getting some of the 'bits' separately -
though the cost of good RFBs can add up pretty fast.  I think this one is in
better condition than mine was when I got it, and mine has been trouble
free, so on that score at least I think you have no worries.

Beware though - if you buy it you'll be unable to resist adding more lenses
and backs over the next couple of years....  ;-)

Hope that helps,

Peter
Stacey - 14 Dec 2004 03:59 GMT
> The Mamiya  645 Pro I bought this summer is boring me. Too much plastic,
> no soul. Besides, 645 on an Epson flatbed doesn't exactly blow me away.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Any comments, suggestions, do's or dont's?

I had one and wasn't that impressed. First there are film flatness issues
with the graphlex 6X9 backs and they are a hassle to use. You must remove
the gound glass from the camera to install the film back, then reinstall
the ground glass. Plus the camera must have a "grafloc back" to use them.
The "slip in" roll film holders are better quality and easy to use but are
expencive. Then you have all the -problems- that using a view camera has,
the dark slide, closing the lens, stopping down the lens manually and then
firing the shutter. For all this, you're better off just shooting 4X5.

Signature


 Stacey

Marv Soloff - 14 Dec 2004 11:23 GMT
Most of the roll film flatness issues with the Graflex roll holders were
solved a half-century ago.  Remember, those RH holders sold for $19.95
new. Check with the Graflex Org for fixes.

Regards.

Marv

>>The Mamiya  645 Pro I bought this summer is boring me. Too much plastic,
>>no soul. Besides, 645 on an Epson flatbed doesn't exactly blow me away.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> the dark slide, closing the lens, stopping down the lens manually and then
> firing the shutter. For all this, you're better off just shooting 4X5.
Dan Fromm - 14 Dec 2004 12:23 GMT
Bandicoot wrote "The extension is about 26cm (from memory)" and
"The back opening isn't really a full 6x9 - but then most RFBs aren't
anyway.  Graflex "6x9" backs are about 56mm x 82mm, which is fine with
me."

Naaah, my Century's maximum flange-to-film distance is 19.5 cm.
Also, there is no such thing as 6x9.  The size is 2.25" x 3.25", to
which "6x9" is a very sloppy metric approximation.  My Graflex RH-8
roll holder's gate is 2.25" x 3.0625", i.e., 57 mm x 78 mm.
FWIW, I use lenses from 38 mm (but a Biogon that doesn't cover 2x3) to
10.16" on my little Century.  You're absolutely right, they're very
useful little cameras.

Stacey wrote "there are film flatness issues with the graphlex 6X9
backs and they are a hassle to use. You must remove the gound glass
from the camera to install the film back, then reinstall the ground
glass. Plus the camera must have a "grafloc back" to use them.  The
"slip in" roll film holders are better quality and easy to use but are
expencive."

Huh?  The focusing panel is removed by pressing down on two
spring-loaded levers.  There's no unscrewing to remove and rescrewing
to reattach.  And I don't know what you have in mind for "slip
in" roll holders.  My slip in holders are Adapt-A-Roll 620s, which
will feed from a 120 spool but must take up on a 620 spool.  They are
usually less expensive than Graflex roll holders.

And Marv Soloff wrote "Most of the roll film flatness issues with the
Graflex roll holders were solved a half-century ago. Remember, those RH
holders sold for $19.95 new. Check with the Graflex Org for fixes.

Huh?  Please show me where fixes are discussed at www.graflex.org.  I
wasn't aware any were posted there.

Cheers,

Dan
Stacey - 15 Dec 2004 00:41 GMT
> Stacey wrote "there are film flatness issues with the graphlex 6X9
> backs and they are a hassle to use. You must remove the gound glass
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Huh?  The focusing panel is removed by pressing down on two
> spring-loaded levers.

Sure but you do have to remove the panel, find some place to put it while
you install the roll film holder and then reverse the process every shot.
In comparison shooting 4X5 film is much easier.

>  And I don't know what you have in mind for "slip
> in" roll holders.  My slip in holders are Adapt-A-Roll 620s, which
> will feed from a 120 spool but must take up on a 620 spool.  They are
> usually less expensive than Graflex roll holders.

And these have the same film flatness problems and like you said you have to
deal with 620 spools. The good holders (linhof/horstman) aren't cheap.

> And Marv Soloff wrote "Most of the roll film flatness issues with the
> Graflex roll holders were solved a half-century ago. Remember, those RH
> holders sold for $19.95 new. Check with the Graflex Org for fixes.
>
> Huh?  Please show me where fixes are discussed at www.graflex.org.  I
> wasn't aware any were posted there.

Exactly, there isn't any fixes I'm aware of. The later holders with the
rollers are better but still aren't great. I suppose if you avoid short
lenses they are OK? Then again even using a 65mm lens on these is a hassle
with no movements etc which negates the advantage of a "view camera" type
camera IMHO.
Signature


 Stacey

Marv Soloff - 15 Dec 2004 03:46 GMT
Thought I saw the fix on Graflex.org - there were two flatness problems
with the RH series of roll film holders.  One fix was the adoption of
the flatness rollers on either side of the opening.  The second fix,
which I think originated with the guy who ran Graflex's Canadian service
operation was to slightly bend the tin tabs on the back to increase the
pressure on the feed and takeup rolls.  That should do it.  Never had
any sharpness problems with my RH holders.

Regards,

Marv

>>Stacey wrote "there are film flatness issues with the graphlex 6X9
>>backs and they are a hassle to use. You must remove the gound glass
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> with no movements etc which negates the advantage of a "view camera" type
> camera IMHO.
Stacey - 15 Dec 2004 05:15 GMT
> Thought I saw the fix on Graflex.org - there were two flatness problems
> with the RH series of roll film holders.  One fix was the adoption of
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> pressure on the feed and takeup rolls.  That should do it.  Never had
> any sharpness problems with my RH holders.

No offence I hope but I thought mine were sharp too until I tried my "roll
film" lenses on a 4X5 body with 4X5 sheet film, cropped the 6X9 part out
and enlarged it compared to the roll film backs. I did this with a 100mm WF
ektar and the results were pretty obvious. These were the "newer" type
holder with the rollers as well. It's not awful but these things start
adding up so the end results between old design optics, film plane issues
etc are no better than a modern 6X4.5 in print, other than the film grain
of course.

The other thing no one mentioned was how dim the old plain ground glass
screen is on these. Useless without a darkcloth, one more thing to have to
carry.
Signature


 Stacey

Bandicoot - 15 Dec 2004 14:21 GMT
[SNIP]

> The other thing no one mentioned was how dim the old plain ground glass
> screen is on these. Useless without a darkcloth, one more thing to have to
> carry.

A fresnel helps a lot, but yes, the original fit GG isn't up to modern
standards.  Of course, it's very easy to replace it with a modern one, which
is just what you yourself advocate with your Kievs so it seems a little
unfair to criticise the Century for that...

;-)

Peter
Marv Soloff - 15 Dec 2004 23:15 GMT
Let's put it this way:  I am satisfied with the 11 x 14 prints from
negatives shot with the RH10 backs I own. Since I shoot only for my own
amusement and not for profit or publication, I don't have to be anal
about "sharpness" - whatever that is.

Regards,

Marv

>>Thought I saw the fix on Graflex.org - there were two flatness problems
>>with the RH series of roll film holders.  One fix was the adoption of
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> screen is on these. Useless without a darkcloth, one more thing to have to
> carry.
Bandicoot - 15 Dec 2004 04:13 GMT
> Bandicoot wrote "The extension is about 26cm (from memory)" and
> "The back opening isn't really a full 6x9 - but then most RFBs aren't
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> to 10.16" on my little Century.  You're absolutely right, they're very
> useful little cameras.

Oh dear, looks like my memory isn't too good these days...   ;-)

Peter
JCPERE - 14 Dec 2004 13:30 GMT
> fotoralf@gmx.de  (Ralf R. Radermacher)

>Noticed I've never had a view camera and 6x9 this might be fun. Just
>seen a Graflex Century on... well... you know where.
>
>Any comments, suggestions, do's or dont's? Can it be used with just any
>LF optics provided they have a shutter, like those made for a Technika
>etc.?

If you're looking for a cheap versatile 6x9 camera a Century is great.
Downside is you will need to use a tripod most of the time, the camera is not
as easy to use as modern ones, and is a little larger and heavier when you toss
in backs and lenses. If you want the view camera experience with lot's of
movements better to get a 4x5 if your processing equipment can handle it.  The
bigger the ground glass the easier to see things.  I use my Century mostly as a
straight 6x9 camera with no movements. Hard to find anything to match it for
this function considering weight, close focus ability, use of all kinds of
lenses from modern to weird old ones, and cost.

I would not look for a big quality setup from your modern 645 no matter what
lens you use.  (Well maybe with the newer Schneider 80mm.)  If you want that
better go 4x5.  Just my experience looking at what I get from a Fuji 645Zi
compared to the Century with 100 Apo-Sironar.
Chuck
J - 14 Dec 2004 19:10 GMT
Signature

'

> > fotoralf@gmx.de  (Ralf R. Radermacher)
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> If you're looking for a cheap versatile 6x9 camera a Century is great.
> Downside is you will need to use a tripod most of the time,

When I used to use mine (haven't for many years) I could shoot handheld with
no problem. No different from any other rangefinder in this respect. In fact
using the lens shutter it is quieter than nearly any 35mm SLR.
Stacey - 15 Dec 2004 00:46 GMT
> I would not look for a big quality setup from your modern 645 no matter
> what
> lens you use.  (Well maybe with the newer Schneider 80mm.)  If you want
> that
> better go 4x5.  Just my experience looking at what I get from a Fuji 645Zi
> compared to the Century with 100 Apo-Sironar.

That's what I found. With the film flatness issues and the lenses most of
these are used with, they produced no better results than I got even with
my rolleicord cropped to 6X4.5. If it was your only medformat camera, sure
they work fine but I doubt ralf will see any improvement over his modern
6X4.5
Signature


 Stacey

Ralf R. Radermacher - 15 Dec 2004 09:45 GMT
> If it was your only medformat camera, sure
> they work fine but I doubt ralf will see any improvement over his modern
> 6X4.5

Mind you, I'm scanning practically everything. 6x9 does well on an Epson
Perfection 3200 or 4870 while 645 is no better than 35 mm on my old
LS-2000.

Besides, I find my 645 Pro to be by far the most boring camera I've ever
used. We're just not made for each other, if you get the idea. Never
been too partial with that modern Japanese stuff, anyway. Too much
plastics.

Ralf

Signature

Ralf R. Radermacher  -  DL9KCG  -  Köln/Cologne, Germany
private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de
manual cameras and photo galleries - updated April 29, 2004
Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses

Stacey - 16 Dec 2004 05:10 GMT
>> If it was your only medformat camera, sure
>> they work fine but I doubt ralf will see any improvement over his modern
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Perfection 3200 or 4870 while 645 is no better than 35 mm on my old
> LS-2000.

Then it should do better. I was thinking of optical enlargments. It does
-work- but it depends on what you're doing. BTW if you think 6X9 scans look
good, you should see 4X5's and using a 4X5 isn't any more of a hassle IMHO.

Signature


 Stacey

J - 16 Dec 2004 18:51 GMT
> >> If it was your only medformat camera, sure
> >> they work fine but I doubt ralf will see any improvement over his modern
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> -work- but it depends on what you're doing. BTW if you think 6X9 scans look
> good, you should see 4X5's and using a 4X5 isn't any more of a hassle IMHO.

I find loading and developing 120 film is a snap compared to sheet film
because it does not require darkness. I've done both and 4x5 is more of a
hassle. If you are going to take any large number of pictures then the film
holders start to weigh you down more than the camera.

6x9 is a good compromise and since it is fairly cheap to get started you
still have money left to move into LF if you really like it. I found that a
baby graflex felt very liberating after stepping down from 4x5. Sure you can
get a 120 back for 4x5 but that always seemed a bit kludgy to me.

-j
jjs - 15 Dec 2004 02:20 GMT
> The Mamiya  645 Pro I bought this summer is boring me. Too much plastic,
> no soul. Besides, 645 on an Epson flatbed doesn't exactly blow me away.
> Noticed I've never had a view camera and 6x9 this might be fun. Just
> seen a Graflex Century on... well... you know where.

Ah, get a Printex... unless you want to do camera movements.
zeitgeist - 16 Dec 2004 08:52 GMT
get a gowland flex, its a 4x5 twin lens, seriously.

> The Mamiya  645 Pro I bought this summer is boring me. Too much plastic,
> no soul. Besides, 645 on an Epson flatbed doesn't exactly blow me away.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> manual cameras and photo galleries - updated April 29, 2004
> Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses
Ron Todd - 17 Dec 2004 21:48 GMT
>The Mamiya  645 Pro I bought this summer is boring me. Too much plastic,
>no soul. Besides, 645 on an Epson flatbed doesn't exactly blow me away.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>LF optics provided they have a shutter, like those made for a Technika
>etc.?

Looking at your galleries, you might want to give some serious thought
to a 4x5 Crown, Speed, or Super Graphic.
Stacey - 18 Dec 2004 00:53 GMT
> On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 22:28:43 +0100, fotoralf@gmx.de (Ralf R.

>>Any comments, suggestions, do's or dont's? Can it be used with just any
>>LF optics provided they have a shutter, like those made for a Technika
>>etc.?
>
> Looking at your galleries, you might want to give some serious thought
> to a 4x5 Crown, Speed, or Super Graphic.

I agree, I have a super and like I posted elsewhere it's no more of a hassle
to use than a baby graphic is with MUCH better results.

Signature


 Stacey

Ron Todd - 21 Dec 2004 19:25 GMT
>> On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 22:28:43 +0100, fotoralf@gmx.de (Ralf R.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>I agree, I have a super and like I posted elsewhere it's no more of a hassle
>to use than a baby graphic is with MUCH better results.

Plus its easier to get roll film backs for a 45 Graphic than a 23.
Bandicoot - 22 Dec 2004 13:31 GMT
[SNIP]

> Plus its easier to get roll film backs for a 45 Graphic than a 23.

That's never been my experience, either buying new (Horseman or Wista) or
used (Graflex, Mamiya) in either size 'fitting' seems easy enough - what
problems have you found?

Peter
JCPERE - 23 Dec 2004 12:54 GMT
>"Bandicoot" "insert_handle_here"@techemail.com

>> Plus its easier to get roll film backs for a 45 Graphic than a 23.
>
>That's never been my experience, either buying new (Horseman or Wista) or
>used (Graflex, Mamiya) in either size 'fitting' seems easy enough - what
>problems have you found?

Are you sure that Horseman and Wista backs fit all 23 Graphics?  I have heard
that the Horseman will not fit on a Century Graphic without some modifications.
Bandicoot - 24 Dec 2004 02:28 GMT
> >"Bandicoot" "insert_handle_here"@techemail.com
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> have heard that the Horseman will not fit on a Century Graphic without
> some modifications.

That's possible - my Horseman Polaroid back fitted it fine right off, but my
Horseman reflex viewer needed a little 'adjustment - suggests maybe not all
things equestrian and all things centennial agree with each other...

Peter
Ron Todd - 25 Dec 2004 21:24 GMT
>>"Bandicoot" "insert_handle_here"@techemail.com
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Are you sure that Horseman and Wista backs fit all 23 Graphics?  I have heard
>that the Horseman will not fit on a Century Graphic without some modifications.

I would like that question settled as to what definitely fits what
(and minor modifications when required).  There are also the Linholf
and Arca Swiss (picture looked like a rebranded Horseman) RFBs.  It
would be very helpful.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all.
 
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