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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Medium format / June 2004

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Mamiya service and gray market

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Mike - 24 Jun 2004 19:42 GMT
I talked with Mamiya America parts and service today regarding in and out of
warrantee service.
I was told there is *no warrantee service* available on any bodies, lenses
or magazines of the following models IF they are Gray Market; Mamiya 7,
645AF and 645AFD.
The serial numbers will be checked to determine if the item in question was
sold through an authorized USA outlet.  As for out of warrantee, I was told
parts and service will be taken on a case by case basis.
Matt Clara - 24 Jun 2004 20:03 GMT
> I talked with Mamiya America parts and service today regarding in and out of
> warrantee service.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> sold through an authorized USA outlet.  As for out of warrantee, I was told
> parts and service will be taken on a case by case basis.

Thanks Mike!

Signature

Regards,
Matt Clara
www.mattclara.com

Art - 24 Jun 2004 21:01 GMT
You found out why.  When you call them you actually get to talk to a person
who knows their cameras.  Somebody has got to pay their salary.

> I talked with Mamiya America parts and service today regarding in and out of
> warrantee service.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> sold through an authorized USA outlet.  As for out of warrantee, I was told
> parts and service will be taken on a case by case basis.
Mike - 24 Jun 2004 21:47 GMT
> You found out why.  When you call them you actually get to talk to a person
> who knows their cameras.  Somebody has got to pay their salary.

Very true.  The reason for my call to MA was to get some clarification.
It is also true the sales department, in most cases, can no longer support
the service department.
You may find companies adopting similar gray market policies with respect to
warrantee service.
The group that formed MA spent a huge amount of money, I have heard 5
million, to get the sole importation and distribution rights. There is a
great deal of infrastructure needed to do what MA does.
At any rate now one knows the risk of bringing in gray market equipment,
flip the coin or roll the dice.
Mike
Tony Clark - 24 Jun 2004 23:17 GMT
Let them check the serial numbers. Have you compared the prices in the
US to Robert White in the UK? No wonder MA offers rebates on their
products, the prices are inflated and grey market makes more sense to
me. I have rarely needed service or repairs and would simply rent a
piece locally if I needed to ship a body or lens back for repair. I have
purchased grey market Nikon lenses and have never had a problem.
Besides, there are very good independent repair shop here in Atlanta if
needed.

> I talked with Mamiya America parts and service today regarding in and out of
> warrantee service.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> sold through an authorized USA outlet.  As for out of warrantee, I was told
> parts and service will be taken on a case by case basis.
Mike - 25 Jun 2004 02:10 GMT
> Let them check the serial numbers. Have you compared the prices in the
> US to Robert White in the UK? No wonder MA offers rebates on their
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Besides, there are very good independent repair shop here in Atlanta if
> needed.

I am not defending MA I had gotten the info in answer to a question and I
personally don't care where a person purchases their equipment.  As an
independent repair shop I only care that I can get parts when I need them.
I can say the parts service from MA is far superior to Nikon.
Stacey - 25 Jun 2004 03:19 GMT
> I am not defending MA I had gotten the info in answer to a question and I
> personally don't care where a person purchases their equipment.  As an
> independent repair shop I only care that I can get parts when I need them.
> I can say the parts service from MA is far superior to Nikon.

So they aren't demanding serial numbers to buy repair parts? I wouldn't
expect nor would I even try to get warranty -service- on any grey market
item. IMHO that goes with the territory: same money, take some risk.

Signature


 Stacey

Mike - 25 Jun 2004 03:32 GMT
> > I am not defending MA I had gotten the info in answer to a question and I
> > personally don't care where a person purchases their equipment.  As an
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> expect nor would I even try to get warranty -service- on any grey market
> item. IMHO that goes with the territory: same money, take some risk.

Stacy you really do need to read what I have written and *not* what you
think I intended to say.
Lets see what I was replyinhg to.

> Let them check the serial numbers. Have you compared the prices in the
> US to Robert White in the UK? No wonder MA offers rebates on their
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Besides, there are very good independent repair shop here in Atlanta if
> needed.

I am not defending MA I had gotten the info in answer to a question and I
personally don't care where a person purchases their equipment.  As an
independent repair shop I only care that I can get parts when I need them.
I can say the parts service from MA is far superior to Nikon.

Now where did I say MA wouldn't ask for a serial number when I ordered
parts?
Andrew Koenig - 25 Jun 2004 16:52 GMT
> So they aren't demanding serial numbers to buy repair parts? I wouldn't
> expect nor would I even try to get warranty -service- on any grey market
> item.

I don't know if it's still true, but when the Nikon F5 was first introduced
to the market, Nikon USA had a policy of insisting that independent repair
shops fax them an image of the camera's serial number with each parts order.
Their goal was to ensure that if you brought an F5 into the USA and it
wasn't one of theirs, you would have to go outside the USA for parts, in or
out of warranty.
Stacey - 25 Jun 2004 00:21 GMT
> I talked with Mamiya America parts and service today regarding in and out
> of warrantee service.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> sold through an authorized USA outlet.  As for out of warrantee, I was
> told parts and service will be taken on a case by case basis.

 BMW did the same thing in the 80's when grey market european cars were
popular. With cars, seems they change the parts -just enough- so that many
US spec parts won't fit on eurospec cars. They would sell USA spec parts
but would not service a euro spec model in their shops nor order euro spec
parts. With a mamiya I can't imagine the grey market cameras are any
different and if they refuse to sell "USA" parts to you or demand a serial
number before they will, just tell them you need this is writing. I don't
believe it's legal for them to refuse to sell you parts no matter where the
camera came from. There are other places to have a camera serviced if this
is needed. While I agree MA deserves to make some money, their "upcharge"
is outragious and why I've never bought any of their cameras new.
Signature


 Stacey

Mike - 25 Jun 2004 02:16 GMT
>   BMW did the same thing in the 80's when grey market european cars were
> popular. With cars, seems they change the parts -just enough- so that many
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> is needed. While I agree MA deserves to make some money, their "upcharge"
> is outragious and why I've never bought any of their cameras new.

All Mamiya cameras like all Nikons or Pentax's are the same cameras whether
purchased in the USA or GB. I don't know what the cost of a Mamiya
distributorship anywhere in Europe would cost or entail.
Like I have said, I am not defending MA.
Andrew Koenig - 25 Jun 2004 16:49 GMT
>With a mamiya I can't imagine the grey market cameras are any
> different and if they refuse to sell "USA" parts to you or demand a serial
> number before they will, just tell them you need this is writing. I don't
> believe it's legal for them to refuse to sell you parts no matter where the
> camera came from.

Mamiya has an unusual legal status because the US distributor is *not* a
subsidiary of the manufacturer, but rather is a completely independent
company.  US citizens and corporations have the right to register trademarks
with the US Patent and Trademark Office, after which it becomes a criminal
offense to bring any item bearing those trademarks into the USA without
first obtaining permission from the trademark owner.

Mamiya America Corporation has registered "Mamiya" as a trademark in the
USA.  That means that, unlike similar cameras bearing Nikon and Canon
trademarks, if you have a Mamiya camera shipped to you from overseas, that
shipment is illegal, and if Customs happens to inspect it, they can
confiscate the camera.  Moreover, the camera itself is contraband, and
Mamiya America would be within their rights to confiscate it and call the
cops if you were ever to bring it to them for repair.

Given that state of affairs, I would be very surprised to find that they did
not also have the right to confirm that your camera was in the contry
legally before selling you repair parts for it.

Incidentally, you may think that this story is absurd.  If so, let me tell
you about a company named Gotham Audio, which a number of years ago was the
US importer for Neumann microphones.  Their repair policy was simple:  If
you brought a microphone to them for repair, they'd check the serial number
to see if it was one that they had imported.  If not, they'd keep it, and
deny that you ever gave it to them in the first place.  As far as I know,
the only downside of doing so was that it got some people mad at them.

I don't think Mamya America goes this far--but unless the laws have changed,
I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that they could do so if they
wanted.
Bill Hilton - 25 Jun 2004 18:06 GMT
>From: "Andrew Koenig" ark@acm.org

>Mamiya America Corporation has registered "Mamiya" as a trademark in the
>USA.  That means that, unlike similar cameras bearing Nikon and Canon
>trademarks, if you have a Mamiya camera shipped to you from overseas, that
>shipment is illegal

This is not true, though Mamiya would like you to think it is.

>... and if Customs happens to inspect it, they can
>confiscate the camera. Moreover, the camera itself is contraband, and
>Mamiya America would be within their rights to confiscate it and call the
>cops if you were ever to bring it to them for repair.

Also not true.

You are allowed to bring in ONE item of each kind (ie, one body, one 80 mm
lens, etc) legally once a month.  You cannot bring in more than one of any
given item within that time frame though.

When I bought a Mamiya lens grey market it was indeed inspected by customs and
I had to pay duty (I think 4% or so) but it was certainly legal.

http://medfmt.8k.com/mf/hongkong.html and scroll down to the part on trademarks
(BobM used to do good work before he morphed into the digital anti-Christ :).  
To quote from Bob's page on this issue, specifically Mamiya ...

<quote>In the past, Mamiya America Corp. has protected their valuable
trademarks and associated rights to control the importation and distribution of
these Mamiya trademarked photo items (cameras such as Mamiya 7 RF, RZ-67, and
Mamiya lenses). We are not talking about bogus badly made copies of Mamiya
products. These items were actually made by the Mamiya Japan entity at its
Japanese and other foreign factories to full specifications.

Bringing in a single one of each restricted trademarked item is permitted for
personal use under U.S. laws. But bringing in multiples of the same item at the
same time will fall outside of this personal exemption. In theory, U.S. Customs
agents can remove the offending trademarks, possibly by even grinding them off.
Ouch! But you shouldn't trigger this reaction if you aren't trying to import
more than one of each item for personal use. But beware if you are bringing
back more than one of the same item per trip by yourself!

Some importer and retailer postings and pages suggest that your photo equipment
is subject to being confiscated or destroyed by U.S. Customs. I have yet to see
a documented recent case of such confiscations of photo equipment being
imported into the U.S. for individual use (e.g., under the trademark item
exemptions since 1990). Similarly, the last case I have heard of trademarks
being ground off photo gear being imported into the USA by an individual is
more than 20 years ago.

Even in the case of one photographer who recently imported 3 sets of various
trademarked goods, the U.S. Customs service only passed on his name to the
local trademark holder. The U.S. Customs service didn't confiscate the goods,
didn't grind off the trademarks, and didn't hold up the gear's entry into the
USA. The trademark holder corporation sent him a nasty threatening letter. He
could have avoided even this minor irritation simply by learning about the
exemptions and importing just one of each item per month.
</quote>

Bill
one_of_many - 25 Jun 2004 15:38 GMT
> I talked with Mamiya America parts and service today regarding in and out of
> warrantee service. [...]

Thanks for posting the authoritative information, Mike. Very helpfull.

The next question is, how does one identify a gray market camera? When
buying used, it would be helpfull if we knew the serial numbers to avoid.
(Questions, questions. :))
Mike - 27 Jun 2004 07:05 GMT
> > I talked with Mamiya America parts and service today regarding in and out of
> > warrantee service. [...]
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> buying used, it would be helpfull if we knew the serial numbers to avoid.
> (Questions, questions. :))

Your welcome John.
Mamiya will have a list of serial numbers of equipment they have imported
from Mamiya Japan. MA can trace what equipment was sold to which dealer, if
the serial number of your camera is not on the list then it is assumed to be
gray market.
I believe MA will sell parts for any used equipment, the problem will be
with new equipment. However if you are in doubt give them a call I am
willing to bet they will be happy to assist you.
Mike
 
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