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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Large Format / June 2004Beginners: go read a book.
Not that it's in my nature to get uppity...but... Lately, I've noticed that several people have been coming to the newsgroup asking for comprehensive answers to the question "how do I get started in large format?" Go buy a book on the subject and read it. Really. What did we do before the friggin' internet? There are several REALLY GOOD books out there that will answer most, if not all, of your questions. You're about to spend how many hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars on LF equipment and you can't spend $29.95 on a lousy book to help you figure out what you want to buy and how to use it? Go to Amazon (or Borders or Barnes and friggin' Noble or whoever) and see how many books on basic LF are available...you'll be amazed. Maybe you could even take a class somewhere and help some poor photo teacher (who thought that he/she would be working as an assignment photographer for National Geographic by now but, instead, finds themself teaching at some college) keep their job in the face of the digital onslaught. If you're going to find the most labor intensive way to make photographs, then shooting large format is the way to go. LABOR INTENSIVE as in it takes some effort on both a physical and intellectual level (not to mention financial). Until the auto-focus, digital 8X10 with a zoom lens and a built in printer comes along, you will have to put out some effort. argon > Not that it's in my nature to get uppity...but... > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > argon ITA  SignatureDuzz that A moose you ? aw come on. You're going to ruin our chances it pontificate our views! :^) Todd > Not that it's in my nature to get uppity...but... > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > argon > Not that it's in my nature to get uppity...but... > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > use it? Go to Amazon (or Borders or Barnes and friggin' Noble or whoever) and > see how many books on basic LF are available...you'll be amazed. I was just in Barnes & Noble last night doing exactly this. I found a _single_ book on medium and large format. It wasn't that helpful and large-format was covered briefly. Yes, I will probably order the Steve Simmons book online, but when you have an itch that suddenly needs to be scratched, why not? At least newbie questions are on-topic. Further, none of these books talk about used equipment within reach of a beginner on a budget. Frankly I've learned far more about 35mm photography on USENET than I have by reading lousy introductory books that cover the same basic material. Google's archive search is very helpful, but sometimes getting up-to-date opinions is extremely helpful especially given the digital onslaught you mention. For example, an Epson flatbed scanner likely makes LF much more appealing and economical to certain people. This never even occured to me that you can use a flatbed to scan 4x5 or even 8x10. Is this covered in the books you speak of? > If you're going to find the most labor intensive way to make photographs, then > shooting large format is the way to go. LABOR INTENSIVE as in it takes some > effort on both a physical and intellectual level (not to mention financial). > Until the auto-focus, digital 8X10 with a zoom lens and a built in printer > comes along, you will have to put out some effort. Isn't a Polaroid back a built-in printer? :) > For example, an Epson flatbed scanner likely makes LF much more >appealing and economical to certain people. This never even occured to me >that you can use a flatbed to scan 4x5 or even 8x10. Is this covered in the >books you speak of? In fact the scanner itself is a LF camera. It works great on anything that is flat or almost flat. I did a real nice 200mb 11x14 image scanned at 1200dpi of small dolls all lined up on the flat bed glass. Instead of closing the cover, I use a colored drape over the subject. Presto large format. Total cost= $200 for a good scanner. Larry Hi Argon, I think you are being too hard on beginners. First of all, the questions I have seen - say from Ivan or Scott Knowles - have been well thought out questions. Second, you can get into LF for a lot less than you state - I did, by attending camera fairs, tag sales, making judicious eBay purchases. [Heavy duty tripod with head used from photo school - $10; used B&J Grover Monorail - $100; lenses $20 to $150 each (and that includes a couple Kodak Commercial Ektars and a Schneider).] A lot of beginners don't know where to go to get equipment without our assistance and end up spending large sums of money. Third, the news group exists to help us all, with simple, stupid or sophisticated questions. I like to think that we provide a bank of group knowledge that is greater than the sum of its parts. Certainly in the rec.photo.darkroom newsgroup, and here too, maybe, reportsafter experiementation has led to advances in useful knowledge beyond anything published. There are some things, of course, that could never be learned from reading the newgroup, or even most web sites. E.g., the effects of swings, tilts and shifts on the final image. For that the beginner is going to need a book, and trial and practice. Francis A. Miniter >Not that it's in my nature to get uppity...but... > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >argon > I think you are being too hard on beginners. I agree If someone doesn't want to provide help don't respond to the requests but running off newcomers because they haven't read a book before posting questions doesn't seem like a good idea to me. > Hi Argon, > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > > >argon > Lately, I've noticed that several people have been coming to the newsgroup > asking for comprehensive answers to the question "how do I get started in large > format?" Go buy a book on the subject and read it. Really. What did we do > before the friggin' internet? I second this: First read the manual (a book), then search Google, then ask usenet ... usenet being the least trustworthy of the three. IMO, local bookstores - B&N, Borders etc. - don't stock much in the mechanics of photography though often have a good selection of coffee table coverings. Try scanning the catalog at the local library, there will be lots and lots you can get via interlibrary loan. The downtown Cleveland Public Library has a 50ft aisle, 7 ft high, on photography -- a few clicks of the mouse and the books are delivered to my local library around the corner. If I need to buy a book, I buy from abebooks.com; buying used books is good recycling sense and often 80% off. I only use amazon when looking for reviews. -- Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/ > > Lately, I've noticed that several people have been coming to the newsgroup > > asking for comprehensive answers to the question "how do I get started in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I second this: Too late I already did. SignatureDuzz that A moose you ? > > Lately, I've noticed that several people have been coming to the newsgroup > > asking for comprehensive answers to the question "how do I get started in [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > good recycling sense and often 80% off. I only use amazon when looking for > reviews. Hi All This doesn't seem to me to be such a big deal. As an above poster said, no one has to answer. Someone else can say something to make them feel welcome to LF photog. & refer him or her to books, even to give a short critique of which books might be more germane to their interest. Also they could be given a link to FAQs & suggest the areas that might maximize their learning curve. (IMHO the bottom of a learning curve has always been Hell) I was kinda surprised @ the poster who said he never buys from Amazon. After 100 or so orders, I've never had an iota of trouble w/ them. Good selection, good reviews / previews, good prices, & great delivery. But then, that's why they make Fords & Chievvies. Although I certainly use used book stores, too. By the way, I watched the public television show about Ansel Adams again tonight. Really enjoyed it for the 2nd time. I'm really enjoying this news group. Thanks John > I was kinda surprised @ the poster who said he never buys > from Amazon. That's a misquote. Let's try again: I don't buy books new if I can help it. I buy books used. From Mom&Pop bookstores, via abebooks.com. Why? I'm cheap. SignatureNicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/ > > I was kinda surprised @ the poster who said he never buys > > from Amazon. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I'm cheap. Nicholas, I had the pleasure of visiting Powell's Bookstore in Portland last week. Used books right up there on the shelves with new books. Millions of them! I'll never be the same again! (And they have an entire, separate building just for tech books.) <john*at*stafford.net (one_of_many)> wrote in message > I had the pleasure of visiting Powell's Bookstore in Portland > last week. Used books right up there on the shelves with new books. > Millions of them! I'll never be the same again! (And they have an entire, > separate building just for tech books.) Reiter's in Washington DC is another good retail source for technical books. And I seem to remember there was a bookstore of note in Denver, can't think of the name for love or money. SignatureNicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/ There's also Acres of Books in Long Beach, California, and Opamp in Hollywood, California. Does anyone else see the irony of using Usenet to slam people for using Usenet...? If you don't like people asking beginner type questions, then don't read them. That seems a lot easier than trying to change the habits of people who have learned to use the internet for that which it was intended. John Emmons > Not that it's in my nature to get uppity...but... (rest snipped...) > Does anyone else see the irony of using Usenet to slam people for using > Usenet...? No. Should we write letters to the ed. of the local paper? And what's this 'slam' stuff? Nobody's getting 'slammed'. After a while answering the same old question with the same old answer gets old and so folks make the same old complaints prompting others to make the same old complaints about the folks making the same old complaints about answering the same old questions that starting this complaint in the first place. > If you don't like people asking beginner type questions, then don't read > them. Don't like spam? Don't read it. Don't like tobacco smoke? Don't breath. Don't like the city going down the tubes? Move. Don't like posts complaining about the same old complaints? Don't read them. > That seems a lot easier than trying to change the habits We don't do anything because it's _easy_, we do it because it's _hard_. > of people who have learned to use the internet for that > which it was intended. It was intended for designing nuclear weapons. You aren't planning to use it for that, are you? > > Not that it's in my nature to get uppity...but... Ha! Speak for yourself! I'm uppity and it's definitely in my nature. And I don't want to hear any complaints about it. SignatureNicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/ >Does anyone else see the irony of using Usenet to slam people for using >Usenet...? > >If you don't like people asking beginner type questions, then don't read >them. That seems a lot easier than trying to change the habits of people who >have learned to use the internet for that which it was intended. Well organized groups will post a FAQ for these sorts of questions. It deals with the issues of trivial questions asked by neophytes. rafe b. http://www.terrapinphoto.com > Well organized groups will post a FAQ for > these sorts of questions. It deals with the > issues of trivial questions asked by neophytes. Yes, a FAQ would be great. Maybe the OP should write one?? > Does anyone else see the irony of using Usenet to slam people for using > Usenet...? I agree. It's easy enough to see by the topic if it's a question that interests you or not. This group is for people to ask questions no matter how basic anyone thinks that question may be. Doing an internet search is as likely to find bad information as good. At least in a group environment BS can be called if needed! :-) SignatureStacey > At least in a group environment BS can be called if needed! :-) He he :-D SignatureWould you like to know the precise date of your own death? What if anything is too serious to be joked about? Do you ever spit or pick your nose in public? |
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