Photo Forum / Film Photography / Large Format / March 2004
Shutter repair
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Serge Korolev - 22 Mar 2004 16:07 GMT Hello,
Recently I tryed to enter a large-format fotography by acquiring an old Graflex Crown special model at eBay. I am residing in Italy and it would be quite hard to find those inexpensive cameras here and so I decided to pick one in the US. I had a friend there, coming to visit me for a vacation and he brought this camera to me.
I suppose that, being not much experienced in the field, I could misoperate a leaf shutter in some way but after a couple of successful fires it's got stuck in charged closed position and I cannot release it.
The person who sold me the camera claims that it used to work perfectly and I don't see a reason why it can be not true since the shutter fired succesfully first time. I believe it might be a "luck" of picking-up an old thing at the time when it's ready to break.
I tryed to call some local stores in my town to ask if they know some repair shop or a person who could give a look at the shutter and restore its functionality. The only answer I've received so far is that _camera_ model is unknown to them and they have no idea where I could go with it.
I don't really know yet if it would so difficult to find a good reasonably priced service here in Italy and so I thought that I might give it back to my friend who is returning to the US in the next few days and he could mail it to some recognized repair shop.
The question is that does it make more sense to locate another used lens for this camera if it would cost me less than a possible repair (I don't really know how much it would be)? Does it make more sense to find a good service within the EU borders, say in Germany, than to have it sent to the US? I just heard that services in Germany are easier to find but they are quite pricey..
I'd be grateful for any suggestions on the matter.
Serge Brescia, Italy
PS. If you answer privately, please replace "usenet" part of email with "serge".
Nick Zentena - 22 Mar 2004 16:48 GMT > I suppose that, being not much experienced in the field, I could > misoperate a leaf shutter in some way but after a couple of successful > fires it's got stuck in charged closed position and I cannot release > it.
> I don't really know yet if it would so difficult to find a good > reasonably priced service here in Italy and so I thought that I might [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The question is that does it make more sense to locate another used > lens for this camera if it would cost me less than a possible repair Which shutter? Which lens? If it's just an old press lens it's likely not worth getting a pro to fix it. If it's something nicer then it might be.
Look for shops selling large format equipment. They'll have a much better idea of local repair shops.
Nick
Nicholas O. Lindan - 22 Mar 2004 20:38 GMT "Serge Korolev" <usenet@korolev.org>
> ... Graflex Crown special model ... after a couple of successful > fires [the leaf shutter] got stuck in charged closed position and > I cannot release it. If you can not find someone to do it for you, you may want to try to fix it yourself:
http://www.edromney.com/
sells repair guides for amateurs.
The classic quick-fix is to soak the shutter is several changes of cigarette lighter fluid (naphtha).
The slow speed shutter train may need lubrication after this.
The very best oil is one made for vacuum operation: it won't fog the lens and it won't migrate. The next best oil is a fulcrum clock oil. A local clock & watch repair store may lubricate the shutter for you for a few lira.
Do not use the 'household' oil used for door hinges, sewing machines ... it will migrate to the aperture and shutter blades, dry out, gum up and fog.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio nolindan@ix.netcom.com Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
Tom - 22 Mar 2004 22:13 GMT If it is a Crown Special it should have a Schneider Xenar in a Compur shutter. The lens and shutter were made in Germany and should actually be easier to get repaired in Europe than in the US. You need to find someplace that works on large format equipment.
If someone changed the lens it may be anything. And you would need to tell us which lens and shutter is actually on the camera for anyone to give you usful information.
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> Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > PS. If you answer privately, please replace "usenet" part of email > with "serge". Serge Korolev - 23 Mar 2004 09:02 GMT Tom <tom@localhost> wrote in message:
> If it is a Crown Special it should have a Schneider Xenar in a Compur > shutter. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > which lens and shutter is actually on the camera for anyone to give you usful > information. I can read the name Prontor-S on the shutter. It mounts a f:6,8/105mm Geog Leitmeyr München Weitwinkel Anastigmat lens, looks very clear. Would it worth repair?
Serge
Nicholas O. Lindan - 23 Mar 2004 14:18 GMT "Serge Korolev" <usenet@korolev.org> wrote in message
> [Re: shutter repair] > I can read the name Prontor-S on the shutter. It mounts a > f:6,8/105mm Geog Leitmeyr München Weitwinkel Anastigmat lens, looks > very clear. > Would it worth repair? Prontor is a German shutter, so repair should (theoretically) be easier to find on your side of the pond. There will only be 2-3 shops in Italy (a guess) that repair LF shutters, you will have to look. Is there an Italian user group with an internet presence? - FWIW the best magazine on antique cameras is out of Italy, maybe there is an add on their website. Germany would have more repair shops.
A few of these lenses went/going for $40-50 on ebay. However, there is no guarantee that they will work any better than the one you have in your hand.
A cleaned and re-lubed Prontor will be good for another 50 years. It is a very good shutter. So, repair may be cost effective even if it costs more than $40.
-- Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio nolindan@ix.netcom.com Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
Serge Korolev - 24 Mar 2004 14:19 GMT > Prontor is a German shutter, so repair should (theoretically) > be easier to find on your side of the pond. There will only [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > cameras is out of Italy, maybe there is an add on their > website. Germany would have more repair shops. I posted similar message to Italian it.arti.fotografia newsgroup. I've got an advise to find an old military guy so far. Could you provide me with a name of the magazine that you mentioned? I could looks for a copy in a local store and see if there is an ads section..
Germany should definetely have something but I am a bit affraid that their repair costs are significally higher than american service prices - I was looking for spare parts for my Rollei SL66 some time ago (such as a missing film back slide) and, in the first place, I tryed to communicate German Rollei repair shops. Their prices 60-70% exceeded top of eBay (say, 32 euro for a brand new 19euro square leaf).
> A few of these lenses went/going for $40-50 on ebay. > However, there is no guarantee that they will work [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > 50 years. It is a very good shutter. So, repair may > be cost effective even if it costs more than $40. That's what I am trying to convince me in. I don't really like an idea of being "lucky" to pick up another shutter cheap that would later jam and might not be adjusted. Better to have one that surely works.
Thanks, Serge
Serge Korolev - 23 Mar 2004 16:18 GMT >> If it is a Crown Special it should have a Schneider Xenar in a >> Compur shutter. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > very clear. > Would it worth repair? Just received an estimation quote for this shutter from S.K.Grimes - $100 for a typical CLA only and $125-$150 if the shutter requires replacement parts/repairs..
I am starting to think that it would worth to find a similar lens and/or a working shutter cheaper. Any well known sources to start with? What kind/size of shutter would fit Gralfex Crown lens board? are those lenses standard to be mounted to any shutter available? Sorry if the questions sound dumb, I'd appreciate a redirection to a good online faq as well. Thanks in advance,
Serge
Nicholas O. Lindan - 23 Mar 2004 16:51 GMT > Prontor-S on the shutter. Just received an estimation > quote for this shutter from S.K.Grimes - > $100 for a typical CLA only and $125-$150 if the shutter requires > replacement parts/repairs.. If it were my shutter, I'd try the "Ronsinol Repair" first: $1.25
> I am starting to think that it would worth to find a similar lens > and/or a working shutter cheaper. Possible. Supermatics are very long lived. I have lousy luck with Compurs - almost always gummed up and impossible to repair without something going sproing and getting lost or snapping in two.
A shutter with a control for opening the shutter for focusing such as Copal are, IMO, far preferable to the compur/prontor/seiko 'press' shutters.
> Any well known sources to start with? rec.photo.marketplace.large-format
ebay & a whole lot of luck: don't expect to get a good one cheap, and don't expect it works just because it is expensive.
Any of a dozen or so dealers in the US.
Local camera swap meetings/flea markets.
Search with Google.
> What kind/size of shutter would fit Gralfex Crown lens board? Most any. For a normal lens a '0' or '1' size. Measure the hole that your present shutter goes into.
> are those lenses standard to be mounted to any shutter available? Variable. The general answer is not with out shimming and sometimes a thread adapter is needed.
> I'd appreciate a redirection to a good online faq as well. http://www.graflex.org/
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio nolindan@ix.netcom.com Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
Marv Soloff - 23 Mar 2004 20:53 GMT Find a Polaroid 110a/b. Rip the lens and shutter out of that and use it on the Graflex.
Regards,
Marv
>>>If it is a Crown Special it should have a Schneider Xenar in a >>>Compur shutter. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Serge David Nebenzahl - 24 Mar 2004 05:51 GMT On 3/23/2004 11:53 AM Marv Soloff spake thus:
> Find a Polaroid 110a/b. Rip the lens and shutter out of that and use it > on the Graflex. Funny you should mention that camera: I just inherited one from a friend. And yes, it does have a rather nice lens and shutter (127mm Rodenstock Ysarex in Prontor SVS, which purrs like a kitten despite 40 years storage in a filthy garage).
But to the O.P. (that's "original poster" in lay terms), why not just get a "standard" lens and shutter for your camera, like the 127mm Kodak Ektar that so many Crown Graphics were equipped with? I got mine with the Crown I got from eBay, cheap, and it's in great condition and the shutter (Kodak Supermatic) works fine. I suspect you could get such a lens and shutter there quite inexpensively; they come up for sale there all the time.
(Or, if your camera really is a "baby Crown Graphic" as some suspect it might be because of the lens size [105mm], then you could get the standard lens for that camera, which is a 101mm Ektar.)
>>>>If it is a Crown Special it should have a Schneider Xenar in a >>>>Compur shutter. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >> Sorry if the questions sound dumb, I'd appreciate a redirection to a >> good online faq as well.
 Signature ... but never have I encountered a guy who could not be bothered to make his own case on his own show.
- Eric Alterman on his appearance on Dennis Miller's bomb of a show on CNBC (3/17/04)
Tom - 23 Mar 2004 21:59 GMT I hope you have a 2-1/4x3-1/4 Graphic there as I do not think that lens (unless it is a wide-angle) will cover 4x5. For what it is worth a Crown Graphic Special is a late model top-rangefinder 4x5 Crown Graphic with the mentioned 135mm Xenar. If that is not what it is the seller misrepresented it. If it is a Special, or other Pacemaker 45, you can replace the lens/shutter with about any lens between 127mm and 210mm that will cover 4x5. 127's and 135's were the most common.
If it is a 2-1/4x3-1/4 (6x9mm) Graphic a 100 to 105 lens is normal. All the 23 Graphics had side mounted rangefinders. I do not know that lens, but going by the basic specs I would think it is a very low-end lens. In that case it would probably be better to replace it than repair it.
I notice a couple of folks mentioned the Ronsonol (ligter fluid) soak. See my article on service Graphex Shutters for my negative opinion of that.
http://presscameras.graywolfphoto.com/graphex.html
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> Tom <tom@localhost> wrote in message: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Serge Nicholas O. Lindan - 23 Mar 2004 23:44 GMT > I do not think that lens (unless it is a wide-angle) will cover 4x5. A few seconds of web search reveals it to be a wide-field-Ektar design.
And, it says wide angle right there in the name: "Weitwinkle" is "wide angle" in German (literally "far bend").
> I notice a couple of folks mentioned the Ronsonol (ligter fluid) soak. See my > article on service Graphex Shutters for my negative opinion of that. Yup, if the problem is grit or sand then a solvent soak will just make the performance (what there is of it) worse. OTOH, it won't break the shutter.
Some shutters use paper blades, and if this is the case then I second Tom's advice to _not_ soak.
Otherwise my advice is to soak, if it doesn't work then it wasn't gummed oil, and it will have to be taken apart: spend a $150 or so on a rebuild or get another shutter. A re-build is a sure bet, another shutter has a high probability of landing you just another gummed up shutter.
The chances of getting a shutter working with a soak (90% success) are far higher than do-it-yourself disassembly (1%) unless you are well versed at taking watches and clocks apart and putting them back together again in fine working order (back to 90%).
Fishboard, a very stiff black or brown cardboard used for insulation, will survive solvent and oil: it is often used in oil impregnated transformers.
Very few folks have the factory manuals, without which the chances of putting it back together again are close to zip. Video recording the take apart stage has been recommended by some. And if a part goes sproing across the room then one is SOL.
Prontors are all metal - I have a pile'o'parts to prove it - so the paper problem isn't. In my experience the problem, if it 'worked once', is old grease or oil. 50 years ago oil didn't last for 50 years without turning into dried up oil-based paint: All old shutters are gummed up (unless there is solid evidence otherwise), and some may have sand in them for extra added aggravation.
I can not recommend do it yourself shutter disassembly unless you are versed in this sort of thing (or don't mind chucking a half dozen shutters in learning it). The chances of success for most everyone are miniscule, and those that can attempt it with success don't ask ... they just do.
As always, advice worth price charged.
 Signature Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio nolindan@ix.netcom.com Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
Serge Korolev - 24 Mar 2004 14:29 GMT Tom <tom@localhost> wrote:
> I hope you have a 2-1/4x3-1/4 Graphic there as I do not think that lens > (unless it is a wide-angle) will cover 4x5. For what it is worth a Crown [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > replace the lens/shutter with about any lens between 127mm and 210mm > that will cover 4x5. 127's and 135's were the most common. It's a late Special Top-Rangefinder 4x5 model. The lens is a wide-angle.
> I notice a couple of folks mentioned the Ronsonol (ligter fluid) soak. See my > article on service Graphex Shutters for my negative opinion of that. > > http://presscameras.graywolfphoto.com/graphex.html Thanks, I didn't really intend to do it at the moment. I am trying to discover possiblities to have it surely fixed and, if that would be possible, to check that it works more or less properly at all speeds. I am affraid to stick with a queue of issues that not serviced shutter may give.
Serge
Nick Zentena - 24 Mar 2004 14:44 GMT > Thanks, I didn't really intend to do it at the moment. I am trying > to discover possiblities to have it surely fixed and, if that would be > possible, to check that it works more or less properly at all speeds. > I am affraid to stick with a queue of issues that not serviced shutter > may give. Have you tried asking the various shops selling LF cameras and film? Some one must know a local repair shop.
Nick
Nick Zentena - 24 Mar 2004 14:50 GMT How about asking: http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/3244/rebora/reb1.html Plus these guys must have a lead http://www.silvestricamera.com/ Nick
Serge Korolev - 24 Mar 2004 22:18 GMT > How about asking: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > http://www.silvestricamera.com/ Wow! Those look beautiful!
I've been just advised by the people in Italian newsgroup to a repair shop in my town. Thanks anyway for such a source of information.
Serge
Serge Korolev - 24 Mar 2004 22:35 GMT >> Thanks, I didn't really intend to do it at the moment. I am trying >> to discover possiblities to have it surely fixed and, if that would [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Have you tried asking the various shops selling LF cameras and film? Some > one must know a local repair shop. Yes, I tryed to call some shops that looked professional, even the one with the highest reputation among amateur's population of my town, although their prices are on the same reputable level. Though I've never seen LF cameras sold in any of them. Most of them were asking for a _camera_ manufacturer, probably intending to redirect my case to an official distributor center. There was one answer that advised me to communicate a person who might help with out-of-production camera things. The same person was recommended to me in italian usenet group. I think I'll try to give him a call tomorrow.
Serge
Serge Korolev - 24 Mar 2004 22:35 GMT >> Thanks, I didn't really intend to do it at the moment. I am trying >> to discover possiblities to have it surely fixed and, if that would [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Have you tried asking the various shops selling LF cameras and film? Some > one must know a local repair shop. Yes, I tryed to call some shops that looked professional, even the one with the highest reputation among amateur's population of my town, although their prices are on the same reputable level. Though I've never seen LF cameras sold in any of them. Most of them were asking for a _camera_ manufacturer, probably intending to redirect my case to an official distributor center. There was one answer that advised me to communicate a person who might help with out-of-production camera things. The same person was recommended to me in italian usenet group. I think I'll try to give him a call tomorrow.
Serge
AArDvarK - 23 Mar 2004 19:13 GMT I would first try the soaking in lighter fluid, if no go... then buy a new (used) lens for ****'s sakes. just make sure it is accurate. But also, SKGrimes does sell used shutters that they have recon- ditioned to accuracy. and there are no doubt several German websites selling them, also fixed. I would look for the exact same shutter because machining out a new set of threaded bushings is expensive!
Alex
> Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > PS. If you answer privately, please replace "usenet" part of email > with "serge". Serge Korolev - 24 Mar 2004 17:22 GMT > I would first try the soaking in lighter fluid, if no go... > then buy a new (used) lens for ****'s sakes. just make sure [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I would look for the exact same shutter because machining > out a new set of threaded bushings is expensive! I thought that there should be some German repair services or shops selling those obsolete shutters but failed to find one with a help of Google, at least. I do not claim that there are none but I would suppose that one'd have to be quite fluent in German to get a result. However, while browsing through the photo.net forums, I found some Internet addresses of German repair shops who might do this job. Unfortunately, those guys do not give you an estimation and prefer to see the thing first. An then they start billing you 50-60 euro per hour. Viva SKGrimes!
Serge
David Nebenzahl - 24 Mar 2004 19:06 GMT On 3/24/2004 8:22 AM Serge Korolev spake thus:
>> I would first try the soaking in lighter fluid, if no go... >> then buy a new (used) lens for ****'s sakes. just make sure [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Google, at least. I do not claim that there are none but I would > suppose that one'd have to be quite fluent in German to get a result. Forgive me for speculating, but I find it hard to believe that there's not a single repair business in all of Italia that could service this shutter for you. I mean, we know Italy has never been a leader in photographic equipment (with the possible exception of the Ducati), but still, there must be enough good German shutters in the country to warrant a good repair shop.
 Signature ... but never have I encountered a guy who could not be bothered to make his own case on his own show.
- Eric Alterman on his appearance on Dennis Miller's bomb of a show on CNBC (3/17/04)
Serge Korolev - 25 Mar 2004 14:30 GMT > Forgive me for speculating, but I find it hard to believe that > there's not a single repair business in all of Italia that could > service this shutter for you. I mean, we know Italy has never > been a leader in photographic equipment (with the possible > exception of the Ducati), but still, there must be enough good > German shutters in the country to warrant a good repair shop. Well, I've just collected information from an italian usenet group and after questioning some local stores. As the result, I've been given coordinates of a person whose repair shop is luckily located not far from me. I don't believe he is the only one in Italy but I didn't dig out any other address at the moment. I just gave him a call to find out that he could try to open and repair the shutter but wouldn't be able to replace or remanufacture any part of it in case if something is broken/missing. Apart from the cost of repair he would charge 150 euro (over $180) extra for a typical CLA. SKGrimes is still beating this price, together with delivering expences and considering that they'll repair it but not merely will try to.
Serge
Frank Pittel - 24 Mar 2004 00:52 GMT I've got a couple of graphics and a number of lenses for my LF camera.
They were all bought on Ebay and the first thing I did after I got them was to send the shutter and lens to S. K. Grimes for a CLA. They're honest, reputable and reasonably priced.
: Hello,
: Recently I tryed to enter a large-format fotography by acquiring an : old Graflex Crown special model at eBay. I am residing in Italy and it : would be quite hard to find those inexpensive cameras here and so I : decided to pick one in the US. I had a friend there, coming to visit : me for a vacation and he brought this camera to me.
: I suppose that, being not much experienced in the field, I could : misoperate a leaf shutter in some way but after a couple of successful : fires it's got stuck in charged closed position and I cannot release : it.
: The person who sold me the camera claims that it used to work : perfectly and I don't see a reason why it can be not true since the : shutter fired succesfully first time. I believe it might be a "luck" : of picking-up an old thing at the time when it's ready to break.
: I tryed to call some local stores in my town to ask if they know : some repair shop or a person who could give a look at the shutter and : restore its functionality. The only answer I've received so far is : that _camera_ model is unknown to them and they have no idea where I : could go with it.
: I don't really know yet if it would so difficult to find a good : reasonably priced service here in Italy and so I thought that I might : give it back to my friend who is returning to the US in the next few : days and he could mail it to some recognized repair shop.
: The question is that does it make more sense to locate another used : lens for this camera if it would cost me less than a possible repair [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] : that services in Germany are easier to find but they are quite : pricey..
: I'd be grateful for any suggestions on the matter.
: Serge : Brescia, Italy
: PS. If you answer privately, please replace "usenet" part of email : with "serge".
 Signature Keep working millions on welfare depend on you ------------------- fwp@deepthought.com
Serge Korolev - 24 Mar 2004 17:25 GMT > I've got a couple of graphics and a number of lenses for my LF camera. > > They were all bought on Ebay and the first thing I did after I got them > was to send the shutter and lens to S. K. Grimes for a CLA. They're honest, > reputable and reasonably priced. Thanks Frank, I am getting convinced to the same.
Serge
Frank Pittel - 26 Mar 2004 04:45 GMT Have your friend send it to S. K. Grimes. They do good work at fair price. If it's not worth repairing they'll tell you that too.
: Hello,
: Recently I tryed to enter a large-format fotography by acquiring an : old Graflex Crown special model at eBay. I am residing in Italy and it : would be quite hard to find those inexpensive cameras here and so I : decided to pick one in the US. I had a friend there, coming to visit : me for a vacation and he brought this camera to me.
: I suppose that, being not much experienced in the field, I could : misoperate a leaf shutter in some way but after a couple of successful : fires it's got stuck in charged closed position and I cannot release : it.
: The person who sold me the camera claims that it used to work : perfectly and I don't see a reason why it can be not true since the : shutter fired succesfully first time. I believe it might be a "luck" : of picking-up an old thing at the time when it's ready to break.
: I tryed to call some local stores in my town to ask if they know : some repair shop or a person who could give a look at the shutter and : restore its functionality. The only answer I've received so far is : that _camera_ model is unknown to them and they have no idea where I : could go with it.
: I don't really know yet if it would so difficult to find a good : reasonably priced service here in Italy and so I thought that I might : give it back to my friend who is returning to the US in the next few : days and he could mail it to some recognized repair shop.
: The question is that does it make more sense to locate another used : lens for this camera if it would cost me less than a possible repair [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] : that services in Germany are easier to find but they are quite : pricey..
: I'd be grateful for any suggestions on the matter.
: Serge : Brescia, Italy
: PS. If you answer privately, please replace "usenet" part of email : with "serge".
 Signature Keep working millions on welfare depend on you ------------------- fwp@deepthought.com
AArDvarK - 27 Mar 2004 16:12 GMT Serge here is another business that specializes in shutter repairs: http://www.khbphotografix.com/ in Canada. They need to be e-mailed for a quote but you need to give all details of the shutter's every operation as in the way it is currently working. They might cost less.
Alex
> Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > PS. If you answer privately, please replace "usenet" part of email > with "serge".
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