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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Large Format / December 2006

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Looking for WW II 6-inch, f/6.3 METROGON LENS

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optics - 01 Dec 2006 07:01 GMT
If anyone has a WW II Metrogon lens in pristine condition for sale,
please let me know.

Prefer lens elements only but tell me what you have.

Glass must be coated and perfect.

Appreciate all responses.
Marv Soloff - 01 Dec 2006 08:20 GMT
> If anyone has a WW II Metrogon lens in pristine condition for sale,
> please let me know.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Appreciate all responses.

Try: http://www.surplusshed.com/pages/item/l3392.html

Regards,

Marv
j - 01 Dec 2006 15:13 GMT
> Try: http://www.surplusshed.com/pages/item/l3392.html

The Surplus Shed has been very good to me for years, but the Metrogons they
have are in bad shape. I went out on a limb and asked them to cherry-pick a
good one (after buying four I could not use) and they politely declined to
reply.  That's fair, really.
Marv Soloff - 01 Dec 2006 15:53 GMT
>>Try: http://www.surplusshed.com/pages/item/l3392.html
>
> The Surplus Shed has been very good to me for years, but the Metrogons they
> have are in bad shape. I went out on a limb and asked them to cherry-pick a
> good one (after buying four I could not use) and they politely declined to
> reply.  That's fair, really.

For a cherry Metrogon, you should have offered them a premium. Say $100.

Regards,

Marv
Thor Lancelot Simon - 01 Dec 2006 16:52 GMT
>>>Try: http://www.surplusshed.com/pages/item/l3392.html
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>>
>For a cherry Metrogon, you should have offered them a premium. Say $100.

I can't see why -- they're slow, not very sharp, have significant light
falloff, and don't actually cover 8x10.  Not exactly my wide-angle lens
of choice.

Signature

Thor Lancelot Simon                                        tls@rek.tjls.com
 "The liberties...lose much of their value whenever those who have greater
  private means are permitted to use their advantages to control the course
  of public debate."                    -John Rawls

j - 01 Dec 2006 17:22 GMT
> For a cherry Metrogon, you should have offered them a premium. Say
> $100.

I think (hope) that they know I would have paid more. We did go back and
forth enough for them to mention it, too.

But the point is - they have no clean Metrogons.
Marv Soloff - 01 Dec 2006 20:37 GMT
>>For a cherry Metrogon, you should have offered them a premium. Say
>>$100.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> But the point is - they have no clean Metrogons.

Then, go to eBay, under Cameras and Photo, look in Aerial and try to
find a new, unopened aerial camera with a Metrogon lens cone attached.

Regards,

Marv
j - 01 Dec 2006 20:43 GMT
> Then, go to eBay, under Cameras and Photo, look in Aerial and try to
> find a new, unopened aerial camera with a Metrogon lens cone attached.

I don't want another. I've had five! As you noted, they really aren't
particularly useful unless one wants a pretty good wide-open lens, and even
then I'd go with the later Biogon.
Richard Knoppow - 02 Dec 2006 02:02 GMT
> If anyone has a WW II Metrogon lens in pristine condition
> for sale,
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Appreciate all responses.

 Is this for use or as a collector's item? If for use what
sort of application?

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

j - 02 Dec 2006 02:44 GMT
>  Is this for use or as a collector's item? If for use what
> sort of application?

Richard, don't you think the ~134mm Metrogon might not be very good for,
say, 8x10" night sky photography? It's faster than the typical Biogon.
Adequately sharp. Adequate coverage. And priced right.
BC - 02 Dec 2006 05:34 GMT
> >  Is this for use or as a collector's item? If for use what
> > sort of application?
>
> Richard, don't you think the ~134mm Metrogon might not be very good for,
> say, 8x10" night sky photography? It's faster than the typical Biogon.
> Adequately sharp. Adequate coverage. And priced right.

Wide-open star images off-axis for an f/6.3 Metrogon or Topogon
wouldn't be very good due to the enormous amount of oblique spherical
aberration.  Stopping to f/11 or f/16 would be necessary to get really
good star images everywhere in the field

Having said that, the Topogon/Metrogon design form has always been one
of my favorites because of its compactness, simplicity, and flat image
field.

Brian
j - 02 Dec 2006 05:41 GMT
> Wide-open star images off-axis for an f/6.3 Metrogon or Topogon
> wouldn't be very good due to the enormous amount of oblique spherical
> aberration.

Brian, is the spherical aberration something particularly problematic with
point images (as I imagine stars are)? I find very little wrong with Bigons
in my everyday work. Not stars.
BC - 02 Dec 2006 23:09 GMT
> > Wide-open star images off-axis for an f/6.3 Metrogon or Topogon
> > wouldn't be very good due to the enormous amount of oblique spherical
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> point images (as I imagine stars are)? I find very little wrong with Bigons
> in my everyday work. Not stars.

Spherical aberration in Metrogons is very low.  Its the oblique
spherical aberration (spherical aberration that changes magnitude as a
function of field angle) that is the limiting aberration of this design
type.

Photographing stars is probably the most demanding test of any lens.
Its no accident that the star test is one of the most sensitive
indicators of aberration in an optical system.  What you should find
with a Metrogon used wide open is that stars near the center of the
field are very sharp pinpoints.  Stars images further out in the field
will have a bright central core surrounded by a smudge of aberrated
light.  The shape of that smudge will vary from a rotationally
symmetric disc near (but not *at*) the optical axis to a weird
butterfly-shaped thing near the edge of the frame.  The reason for this
change in shape is that the vignetting in outer field points is
different in the tangential and sagittal directions.

Normal double-Gauss lenses show very similar behavior, which is not
surprising since the Metrogon and the double-Gauss are very closely
related designs.  The "coma" that many people see in night photography
using these lenses wide open is in reality oblique spherical aberration
with an asymmetry caused by vignetting.

Roosinov/Biogon type designs are typically much better than Metrogons
for large aperture work.

Brian
j - 02 Dec 2006 23:25 GMT
> Photographing stars is probably the most demanding test of any lens.
> Its no accident that the star test is one of the most sensitive
> indicators of aberration in an optical system.  [... snip excellent
> article ...]
> Roosinov/Biogon type designs are typically much better than Metrogons
> for large aperture work.

Thank you for yet another generous explanation, Brian.

jjs
Richard Knoppow - 03 Dec 2006 02:15 GMT
>> > Wide-open star images off-axis for an f/6.3 Metrogon or
>> > Topogon
[quoted text clipped - 53 lines]
>
> Brian

  Brian, is it possible to explain in any reasonably
elementary way the difference between coma and oblique
spherical. I am not sure I understand this. I know they can
look similar, I am curious about what causes each. I have
some understanding of coma.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

BC - 07 Dec 2006 23:43 GMT
>    Brian, is it possible to explain in any reasonably
> elementary way the difference between coma and oblique
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Los Angeles, CA, USA
> dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Richard:
If you're used to looking at transverse ray aberration plots its very
easy to see the difference:  coma has a second-order dependence on
aperture, while oblique spherical has a third order dependence on
aperture.  Its much easier to understand it visually than verbally,
unfortunately.  A Newtonian telescope is a classic example of an
optical system with coma, and a Topogon is a classic example of an
optical system with oblique spherical aberration.  Both improve when
you stop down, but oblique spherical will disappear faster because it
has a higher-order aperture dependence.  Looking at spot diagrams can
get confusing because vignetting in the tangential direction can cause
oblique spherical aberration to look a little bit like coma.

Unlike the Newtonian telescope mentioned above, photographic objectives
rarely suffer coma at their optimum magnification.  Thats because coma
is an easy aberration to correct.  An exception is what I call "axial
coma" that can occur due to tilted and/or decentered lens elements.  If
you change magnification from nominal then you will see coma,
especially in longer focal length lenses.  Most macro lenses for small
format cameras use at least two independently moving lens groups to
correct coma over a very wide range of magnifications.

Oblique spherical aberration, on the other hand, is a very difficult
aberration to correct, and it is the limiting aberration in many types
of photographic objectives.  One way it can be reduced is by the use of
aspheric surface(s) located in an area where the marginal ray height is
fairly large.  Unfortunately, such surfaces are difficult to make
because they almost always have tight tolerances.  The famous 58mm
Noct-Nikkor lens used an aspheric surface not to correct coma, but
rather to correct sagittal oblique spherical aberration.

Brian
Richard Knoppow - 09 Dec 2006 01:24 GMT
>>    Brian, is it possible to explain in any reasonably
>> elementary way the difference between coma and oblique
[quoted text clipped - 66 lines]
>
> Brian

  Thank you very much Brian, I think I can follow this and
will study it.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Richard Knoppow - 02 Dec 2006 06:45 GMT
>>  Is this for use or as a collector's item? If for use
>> what
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> faster than the typical Biogon. Adequately sharp. Adequate
> coverage. And priced right.

  It could well be. Have you checked any of the amateur
astronomy sites to see if anyone has experience with one.
  I don't know how sharp they are. The original purpose was
aerial mapping and metrology. The geometric distortion is
very small. I don't know the optmum stop but I doubt if they
were intended to be used wide open. Probably they become
sharp at around f/16. Resolution has to be pretty good for
mapping work.
 OTOH, these guys were used with red or yellow filters
nearly all the time so their blue correction may not be so
good. I have the prescriptions for a couple of variations of
the Metrogon but they do not include the complete glass
dispersion characteristics so its impossible to calculate
the color correction.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

j - 02 Dec 2006 09:55 GMT
>> Richard, don't you think the ~134mm Metrogon might not be
>> very good for, say, 8x10" night sky photography? It's
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>   It could well be. Have you checked any of the amateur
> astronomy sites to see if anyone has experience with one.

Richard, see this: http://course1.winona.edu/jstafford/skc/
 
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