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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Large Format / August 2005

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Where would a 4x5 holder leak?

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Mike - 13 Aug 2005 05:58 GMT
I suspect a light leak in one of my Regal or Fidelity 4x5 film holders.  

Before I fill them all up with photographic paper, what are the typical
culprits for leaking light?  Where is it most likely that light would get
in?
David Nebenzahl - 13 Aug 2005 07:12 GMT
On 8/12/2005 9:58 PM Mike spake thus:

> I suspect a light leak in one of my Regal or Fidelity 4x5 film holders.  
>
> Before I fill them all up with photographic paper, what are the typical
> culprits for leaking light?  Where is it most likely that light would get
> in?

Pretty much the obvious places, if you think about it a second or two: the end
flap and all edges. The least likely place is the dark slide.

The paper-fogging test isn't a bad idea if you can't trust your holders.

Signature

- The French Revolutionary Calendar (in use 1793-1806):

* Vendémiaire (from Latin vindemia, "vintage") Starting Sept 22, 23 or 24
* Brumaire (from French brume, "mist") Starting Oct 22, 23 or 24
* Frimaire (From French frimas, "frost") Starting Nov 21, 22 or 23
* Nivôse (from Latin nivosus, "snowy") Starting Dec 21, 22 or 23
* Pluviôse (from Latin pluviosus, "rainy") Starting Jan 20, 21 or 22
* Ventôse (from Latin ventosus, "windy") Starting Feb 19, 20 or 21
* Germinal (from Latin germen, "seed") Starting Mar 20 or 21
* Floréal (from Latin flor, "flower") Starting Apr 20 or 21
* Prairial (from French prairie, "meadow") Starting May 20 or 21
* Messidor (from Latin messis, "harvest") Starting Jun 19 or 20
* Thermidor (from Greek thermos, "hot") Starting Jul 19 or 20
* Fructidor (from Latin fructus, "fruits") Starting Aug 18 or 19

Malcolm Stewart - 13 Aug 2005 08:56 GMT
> I suspect a light leak in one of my Regal or Fidelity 4x5 film holders.
>
> Before I fill them all up with photographic paper, what are the typical
> culprits for leaking light?  Where is it most likely that light would get
> in?

I've had light leaks as a results of not inserting one of my 4x5 holders far
enough until its ridge dropped into the location slot.

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M Stewart
Milton Keynes, UK
http://www.megalith.freeserve.co.uk/oddimage.htm

Nicholas O. Lindan - 13 Aug 2005 20:40 GMT
"Malcolm Stewart" <malcolm_stewart@megalith.freeserve.co.uk> wrote
> "Mike" <devnull@example.com> wrote in message
> > I suspect a light leak in one of my Regal or Fidelity 4x5 film holders.
> I've had light leaks as a results of not inserting one of my 4x5 holders far
> enough until its ridge dropped into the location slot.

FWIW: Ditto
Jean-David Beyer - 13 Aug 2005 12:35 GMT
> I suspect a light leak in one of my Regal or Fidelity 4x5 film holders.  
>
> Before I fill them all up with photographic paper, what are the typical
> culprits for leaking light?  Where is it most likely that light would get
> in?

I have only Graphmatics that do not leak light, though there is a potential
for leakage if the felt that traps light where the dark-slide goes wears
out. Mine are quite old, and if they were going to leak there, I suspect
they already would have.

My Fidelity Elite holders would leak only where the dark slide goes in.
Unless the flap at the other end just plain falls off, I would expect no
leakage there. The tape is just a hinge. The ridges in the flap and holders
keep the dark from leaking out. I.e., pinholes in the tape would not matter
other than as a warning that you should replace the tape after a while.

If you do not insert the film holder all the way into the camera, with the
ridge on the holder fitting in the groove in the camera, light will leak there.

I find I fog the film most because those little hooks that retain the dark
slide are too loose and they move so when I pull the holder from the camera
bag, the dark slide comes out a little bit, and that little bit is too much.

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Frank Pittel - 13 Aug 2005 13:10 GMT
: I suspect a light leak in one of my Regal or Fidelity 4x5 film holders.  

: Before I fill them all up with photographic paper, what are the typical
: culprits for leaking light?  Where is it most likely that light would get
: in?

The only place that I've ever had a film holder leak light was at the foam
where the dark slide enters the holder.

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-------------------
Keep working millions on welfare depend on you

Gregory Blank - 13 Aug 2005 13:45 GMT
> I suspect a light leak in one of my Regal or Fidelity 4x5 film holders.  
>
> Before I fill them all up with photographic paper, what are the typical
> culprits for leaking light?  Where is it most likely that light would get
> in?

Why are you filling them with paper? They leak at the tape or sometimes
the dark slides get a small fracture. Or the inner surfaces develop a
pin sized scratch that you can blacken with a sharpie.

Signature

LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

Mike - 13 Aug 2005 15:50 GMT
> Why are you filling them with paper? They leak at the tape or sometimes
> the dark slides get a small fracture. Or the inner surfaces develop a
> pin sized scratch that you can blacken with a sharpie.

I plan on filling them with paper to identify which (if any) holders are
leaking light.  Paper is cheaper than film.  
Gregory Blank - 13 Aug 2005 15:57 GMT
> > Why are you filling them with paper? They leak at the tape or sometimes
> > the dark slides get a small fracture. Or the inner surfaces develop a
> > pin sized scratch that you can blacken with a sharpie.
>
> I plan on filling them with paper to identify which (if any) holders are
> leaking light.  Paper is cheaper than film.  

Ok makes sense.

Signature

LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

Jean-David Beyer - 13 Aug 2005 18:38 GMT
> I suspect a light leak in one of my Regal or Fidelity 4x5 film holders.  
>
> Before I fill them all up with photographic paper, what are the typical
> culprits for leaking light?  Where is it most likely that light would get
> in?

P.S.: I cut little notches with an XActo knife in the edge of my holders
(between dark slide and film) so they are numbered 1 to N in binary. That
way if there is fog, I can tell what holder and what side has the problem.

Signature

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David Nebenzahl - 13 Aug 2005 19:59 GMT
On 8/13/2005 10:38 AM Jean-David Beyer spake thus:

>> I suspect a light leak in one of my Regal or Fidelity 4x5 film holders.  
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> (between dark slide and film) so they are numbered 1 to N in binary. That
> way if there is fog, I can tell what holder and what side has the problem.

But that would only work if the holder leaked exactly where you cut the
notches, no? Still, clever idea. Kinda like notching the inside of the frame
to match exposures to holders.

Hey, plus it's "digital":

  0000
  0001
  0010
  0011
  0100
  0101
  0110
  0111
  1000

...

Signature

- The French Revolutionary Calendar (in use 1793-1806):

* Vendémiaire (from Latin vindemia, "vintage") Starting Sept 22, 23 or 24
* Brumaire (from French brume, "mist") Starting Oct 22, 23 or 24
* Frimaire (From French frimas, "frost") Starting Nov 21, 22 or 23
* Nivôse (from Latin nivosus, "snowy") Starting Dec 21, 22 or 23
* Pluviôse (from Latin pluviosus, "rainy") Starting Jan 20, 21 or 22
* Ventôse (from Latin ventosus, "windy") Starting Feb 19, 20 or 21
* Germinal (from Latin germen, "seed") Starting Mar 20 or 21
* Floréal (from Latin flor, "flower") Starting Apr 20 or 21
* Prairial (from French prairie, "meadow") Starting May 20 or 21
* Messidor (from Latin messis, "harvest") Starting Jun 19 or 20
* Thermidor (from Greek thermos, "hot") Starting Jul 19 or 20
* Fructidor (from Latin fructus, "fruits") Starting Aug 18 or 19

Jean-David Beyer - 13 Aug 2005 20:03 GMT
> On 8/13/2005 10:38 AM Jean-David Beyer spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> ...

I started at 0001 because I needed something for reference.
It is exactly the same as matching exposures to holders. But I do not test
for fogging. I make exposures. Now if there is fogging, there is a high
probability that the notches would be exposed by the desired image even if
the fog did not.

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 /V\  PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A         Registered Machine   241939.
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Mono - 19 Aug 2005 22:18 GMT
> On 8/13/2005 10:38 AM Jean-David Beyer spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> ...

Actually, what notches do is enable you to know exactly which holder each
sheet of film was in when it was exposed.  That way, if you ever have a
fogged sheet, you know which holder to look at.

You can do about the same thing if you simply number your holders, and
then keep careful records that relate the holder number to the scene
photographed.

As to the areas that are likely to fog, the light trap that the darkslide
goes through is one of the prime candidates.  You should be aware that
the light trap on a brand new, perfect holder may still leak a little, so
if you have the camera oriented so that the sun is shinning directly onto
the slot that the darkslide fits into, it's a good practice to drape your
darkcloth over the camera while you are shooting.

Another is the flap hinge.  Note that the tape on the hinge itself does
not minimize fogging - it is merely the hinge.  But if the hinge fails,
the flap won't seat properly and that leads to fogging.

Of course, if you know which holder is leaking, you can simply look at
the last sheet of film that was in that holder to see where it was
leaking.
Lorem Ipsum - 23 Aug 2005 01:33 GMT
This duration of this thread proves that the dumbest questions yield the
most responses - a measure of the constituency. Killfile.
johnboy - 13 Aug 2005 20:12 GMT
> P.S.: I cut little notches with an XActo knife in the edge of my holders
> (between dark slide and film) so they are numbered 1 to N in binary. That
> way if there is fog, I can tell what holder and what side has the problem.

Jean-David: A modified Hex notation works better for a lot of holders. :)
(jjs - who can't resist poking at Good Ideas.)

Being Silly,
John
Mike - 13 Aug 2005 20:47 GMT
> P.S.: I cut little notches with an XActo knife in the edge of my holders
> (between dark slide and film) so they are numbered 1 to N in binary. That
> way if there is fog, I can tell what holder and what side has the problem.

Can you be more specific as to where you cut little notches??  
Jean-David Beyer - 13 Aug 2005 20:58 GMT
>>P.S.: I cut little notches with an XActo knife in the edge of my holders
>>(between dark slide and film) so they are numbered 1 to N in binary. That
>>way if there is fog, I can tell what holder and what side has the problem.
>
> Can you be more specific as to where you cut little notches??  

If you remove the dark slide most of the way, you will see it slides in a
groove along the 5" side. I notched the plastic closest to the film; i.e.,
between the dark slide and the film.

There is a decorative pattern moulded on the top of my holders, and I just
numbered the pattern (in my mind's eye) and used that as a reference for
notching the plastic.

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David Nebenzahl - 13 Aug 2005 21:02 GMT
On 8/13/2005 12:47 PM Mike spake thus:

>> P.S.: I cut little notches with an XActo knife in the edge of my holders
>> (between dark slide and film) so they are numbered 1 to N in binary. That
>> way if there is fog, I can tell what holder and what side has the problem.
>
> Can you be more specific as to where you cut little notches??  

On the rails (on the sides of the holder) which the film goes under. This puts
the notches just about on the very edge of the film.

You could also notches in the outer edge of the holder across the 4"
width--the one the dark slide emerges from--or even the flap, both of which
cast a shadow on the film, again at the very edge.

Signature

- The French Revolutionary Calendar (in use 1793-1806):

* Vendémiaire (from Latin vindemia, "vintage") Starting Sept 22, 23 or 24
* Brumaire (from French brume, "mist") Starting Oct 22, 23 or 24
* Frimaire (From French frimas, "frost") Starting Nov 21, 22 or 23
* Nivôse (from Latin nivosus, "snowy") Starting Dec 21, 22 or 23
* Pluviôse (from Latin pluviosus, "rainy") Starting Jan 20, 21 or 22
* Ventôse (from Latin ventosus, "windy") Starting Feb 19, 20 or 21
* Germinal (from Latin germen, "seed") Starting Mar 20 or 21
* Floréal (from Latin flor, "flower") Starting Apr 20 or 21
* Prairial (from French prairie, "meadow") Starting May 20 or 21
* Messidor (from Latin messis, "harvest") Starting Jun 19 or 20
* Thermidor (from Greek thermos, "hot") Starting Jul 19 or 20
* Fructidor (from Latin fructus, "fruits") Starting Aug 18 or 19

Mike - 13 Aug 2005 22:26 GMT
> On the rails (on the sides of the holder) which the film goes under. This puts
> the notches just about on the very edge of the film.

Ah!  I get it.  Very nice idea
David Nebenzahl - 13 Aug 2005 22:54 GMT
On 8/13/2005 2:26 PM Mike spake thus:

>> On the rails (on the sides of the holder) which the film goes under. This puts
>> the notches just about on the very edge of the film.
>
> Ah!  I get it.  Very nice idea

Actually, after looking at one of my holders again, I may have posted this too
hastily. The rails are metal an would be difficult, if not impossible to notch
(perhaps with a Dremel, but would leave burrs). So just notch the holder
itself, closest to the film. Wooden or plastic holders you should be able to
notch with a good sharp knife (Xacto or equivalent).

Another trick I've seen from some old holders I bought from eBay: clear strips
taped into the holder with a name written in black marker (ink in the olden
days), which would impart a negative image on the film. Probably used by news
photogs who shared darkrooms with others to identify their shots.

Signature

- The French Revolutionary Calendar (in use 1793-1806):

* Vendémiaire (from Latin vindemia, "vintage") Starting Sept 22, 23 or 24
* Brumaire (from French brume, "mist") Starting Oct 22, 23 or 24
* Frimaire (From French frimas, "frost") Starting Nov 21, 22 or 23
* Nivôse (from Latin nivosus, "snowy") Starting Dec 21, 22 or 23
* Pluviôse (from Latin pluviosus, "rainy") Starting Jan 20, 21 or 22
* Ventôse (from Latin ventosus, "windy") Starting Feb 19, 20 or 21
* Germinal (from Latin germen, "seed") Starting Mar 20 or 21
* Floréal (from Latin flor, "flower") Starting Apr 20 or 21
* Prairial (from French prairie, "meadow") Starting May 20 or 21
* Messidor (from Latin messis, "harvest") Starting Jun 19 or 20
* Thermidor (from Greek thermos, "hot") Starting Jul 19 or 20
* Fructidor (from Latin fructus, "fruits") Starting Aug 18 or 19

Richard Knoppow - 15 Aug 2005 00:06 GMT
>> I suspect a light leak in one of my Regal or Fidelity 4x5
>> film holders.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> way if there is fog, I can tell what holder and what side
> has the problem.

  Another method of doing this is to file notches in the
loading door. One can use a sort of Roman numeral notation
with square notches for 5 and V notches (edge of file) for
1. For No.12 you would have two square notches and two V
notches, etc.  Notching this way leaves the marks on the
film in the border at the end with the film notches and is
visible when the holders are in the light. They are also
feelable in the darkroom.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Frank Pittel - 15 Aug 2005 06:54 GMT
: >> I suspect a light leak in one of my Regal or Fidelity 4x5
: >> film holders.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
: > way if there is fog, I can tell what holder and what side
: > has the problem.

:    Another method of doing this is to file notches in the
: loading door. One can use a sort of Roman numeral notation
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
: visible when the holders are in the light. They are also
: feelable in the darkroom.

Putting the notches on the film holders is a great idea and
I like the idea of being able to easily read the notches in
the dark.

Signature

-------------------
Keep working millions on welfare depend on you

Richard Knoppow - 13 Aug 2005 22:55 GMT
>I suspect a light leak in one of my Regal or Fidelity 4x5
>film holders.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> light would get
> in?

  The most common leak is at the light valve for the dark
slide. To check this use a flashlight. Remove the dark slide
and open the loading flap so you can look straight at the
slot for the dark slide. Even with a strong flashlight you
should not see light through the slot.
  Another source is a poorly fitting loading flap. The flap
has rebates in it that match those on the end of the holder
to form a light trap. When the dark slide is in place it
locks the flap. When the holder is in the camera pressure
from the back plate keeps the holder locked when the dark
slide is removed. If something has gotten under the flap, or
if the tape hinge is worn enough the flap may not close
properly. That can sometimes keep the holder from seating
correctly in the camera or keep the dark slide from going in
all the way. I have had this happen but its pretty rare. As
long as the tape hinge allows the loading flap to move
around lengthwise, it is not a source of trouble. Its only
function is as a hinge, its not supposed to be a lightproof
seal.
  Calumet has original hinge tape available but nearly any
fabric tape will do.
  It is also possible (but rare) for a badly warped holder
to cause a leak but such an extreme warp will be visible
especially if you sight along the holder.
  Another problem is failure of the holder to seat
correctly due to some problem in the camera. The best way to
find this sort of leak is to put some white paper in the
holder and put it in the camera. Then remove the lens board
and shine a light all around the back. If here is a leak
this will usually show it up.
  Note that there may be other leaks in the camera
mimicking a holder leak. Check for pin holes in the bellows
or leaks in the lensboard. Sometimes putting the light
inside the camera will show up leaks that do not show by
inspecting the inside.

Signature

---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Nicholas O. Lindan - 14 Aug 2005 21:13 GMT
> "Mike" <devnull@example.com> wrote in message
> > I suspect a light leak in one of my Regal or Fidelity 4x5
> > film holders.
> ...Another problem is failure of the holder to seat
> correctly due to some problem in the camera...

The fault, dear Richard, is not in our Sinars,
But in ourselves, that we are fumblers

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer:  Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix  . netcom . com
Fstop timer -  http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/index.htm

Richard Knoppow - 21 Aug 2005 08:34 GMT
  Yup!!  Virtually every problem I've had with light struck sheet film
was due to my not getting the film in the holder right or the holder in
the camera right. Sheet film makes you appreciate the simplicity of
roll film. Sheet film requires a LOT of attention all the time.

Richard Knoppow
dickburk@ix.netcom.com
 
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