Photo Forum / Film Photography / Large Format / August 2005
Where would a 4x5 holder leak?
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Mike - 13 Aug 2005 05:58 GMT I suspect a light leak in one of my Regal or Fidelity 4x5 film holders.
Before I fill them all up with photographic paper, what are the typical culprits for leaking light? Where is it most likely that light would get in?
David Nebenzahl - 13 Aug 2005 07:12 GMT On 8/12/2005 9:58 PM Mike spake thus:
> I suspect a light leak in one of my Regal or Fidelity 4x5 film holders. > > Before I fill them all up with photographic paper, what are the typical > culprits for leaking light? Where is it most likely that light would get > in? Pretty much the obvious places, if you think about it a second or two: the end flap and all edges. The least likely place is the dark slide.
The paper-fogging test isn't a bad idea if you can't trust your holders.
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Malcolm Stewart - 13 Aug 2005 08:56 GMT > I suspect a light leak in one of my Regal or Fidelity 4x5 film holders. > > Before I fill them all up with photographic paper, what are the typical > culprits for leaking light? Where is it most likely that light would get > in? I've had light leaks as a results of not inserting one of my 4x5 holders far enough until its ridge dropped into the location slot.
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Nicholas O. Lindan - 13 Aug 2005 20:40 GMT "Malcolm Stewart" <malcolm_stewart@megalith.freeserve.co.uk> wrote
> "Mike" <devnull@example.com> wrote in message > > I suspect a light leak in one of my Regal or Fidelity 4x5 film holders. > I've had light leaks as a results of not inserting one of my 4x5 holders far > enough until its ridge dropped into the location slot. FWIW: Ditto
Jean-David Beyer - 13 Aug 2005 12:35 GMT > I suspect a light leak in one of my Regal or Fidelity 4x5 film holders. > > Before I fill them all up with photographic paper, what are the typical > culprits for leaking light? Where is it most likely that light would get > in? I have only Graphmatics that do not leak light, though there is a potential for leakage if the felt that traps light where the dark-slide goes wears out. Mine are quite old, and if they were going to leak there, I suspect they already would have.
My Fidelity Elite holders would leak only where the dark slide goes in. Unless the flap at the other end just plain falls off, I would expect no leakage there. The tape is just a hinge. The ridges in the flap and holders keep the dark from leaking out. I.e., pinholes in the tape would not matter other than as a warning that you should replace the tape after a while.
If you do not insert the film holder all the way into the camera, with the ridge on the holder fitting in the groove in the camera, light will leak there.
I find I fog the film most because those little hooks that retain the dark slide are too loose and they move so when I pull the holder from the camera bag, the dark slide comes out a little bit, and that little bit is too much.
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Frank Pittel - 13 Aug 2005 13:10 GMT : I suspect a light leak in one of my Regal or Fidelity 4x5 film holders.
: Before I fill them all up with photographic paper, what are the typical : culprits for leaking light? Where is it most likely that light would get : in? The only place that I've ever had a film holder leak light was at the foam where the dark slide enters the holder.
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Gregory Blank - 13 Aug 2005 13:45 GMT > I suspect a light leak in one of my Regal or Fidelity 4x5 film holders. > > Before I fill them all up with photographic paper, what are the typical > culprits for leaking light? Where is it most likely that light would get > in? Why are you filling them with paper? They leak at the tape or sometimes the dark slides get a small fracture. Or the inner surfaces develop a pin sized scratch that you can blacken with a sharpie.
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Mike - 13 Aug 2005 15:50 GMT > Why are you filling them with paper? They leak at the tape or sometimes > the dark slides get a small fracture. Or the inner surfaces develop a > pin sized scratch that you can blacken with a sharpie. I plan on filling them with paper to identify which (if any) holders are leaking light. Paper is cheaper than film.
Gregory Blank - 13 Aug 2005 15:57 GMT > > Why are you filling them with paper? They leak at the tape or sometimes > > the dark slides get a small fracture. Or the inner surfaces develop a > > pin sized scratch that you can blacken with a sharpie. > > I plan on filling them with paper to identify which (if any) holders are > leaking light. Paper is cheaper than film. Ok makes sense.
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Jean-David Beyer - 13 Aug 2005 18:38 GMT > I suspect a light leak in one of my Regal or Fidelity 4x5 film holders. > > Before I fill them all up with photographic paper, what are the typical > culprits for leaking light? Where is it most likely that light would get > in? P.S.: I cut little notches with an XActo knife in the edge of my holders (between dark slide and film) so they are numbered 1 to N in binary. That way if there is fog, I can tell what holder and what side has the problem.
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David Nebenzahl - 13 Aug 2005 19:59 GMT On 8/13/2005 10:38 AM Jean-David Beyer spake thus:
>> I suspect a light leak in one of my Regal or Fidelity 4x5 film holders. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > (between dark slide and film) so they are numbered 1 to N in binary. That > way if there is fog, I can tell what holder and what side has the problem. But that would only work if the holder leaked exactly where you cut the notches, no? Still, clever idea. Kinda like notching the inside of the frame to match exposures to holders.
Hey, plus it's "digital":
0000 0001 0010 0011 0100 0101 0110 0111 1000
...
 Signature - The French Revolutionary Calendar (in use 1793-1806):
* Vendémiaire (from Latin vindemia, "vintage") Starting Sept 22, 23 or 24 * Brumaire (from French brume, "mist") Starting Oct 22, 23 or 24 * Frimaire (From French frimas, "frost") Starting Nov 21, 22 or 23 * Nivôse (from Latin nivosus, "snowy") Starting Dec 21, 22 or 23 * Pluviôse (from Latin pluviosus, "rainy") Starting Jan 20, 21 or 22 * Ventôse (from Latin ventosus, "windy") Starting Feb 19, 20 or 21 * Germinal (from Latin germen, "seed") Starting Mar 20 or 21 * Floréal (from Latin flor, "flower") Starting Apr 20 or 21 * Prairial (from French prairie, "meadow") Starting May 20 or 21 * Messidor (from Latin messis, "harvest") Starting Jun 19 or 20 * Thermidor (from Greek thermos, "hot") Starting Jul 19 or 20 * Fructidor (from Latin fructus, "fruits") Starting Aug 18 or 19
Jean-David Beyer - 13 Aug 2005 20:03 GMT > On 8/13/2005 10:38 AM Jean-David Beyer spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > ... I started at 0001 because I needed something for reference. It is exactly the same as matching exposures to holders. But I do not test for fogging. I make exposures. Now if there is fogging, there is a high probability that the notches would be exposed by the desired image even if the fog did not.
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Mono - 19 Aug 2005 22:18 GMT > On 8/13/2005 10:38 AM Jean-David Beyer spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > ... Actually, what notches do is enable you to know exactly which holder each sheet of film was in when it was exposed. That way, if you ever have a fogged sheet, you know which holder to look at.
You can do about the same thing if you simply number your holders, and then keep careful records that relate the holder number to the scene photographed.
As to the areas that are likely to fog, the light trap that the darkslide goes through is one of the prime candidates. You should be aware that the light trap on a brand new, perfect holder may still leak a little, so if you have the camera oriented so that the sun is shinning directly onto the slot that the darkslide fits into, it's a good practice to drape your darkcloth over the camera while you are shooting.
Another is the flap hinge. Note that the tape on the hinge itself does not minimize fogging - it is merely the hinge. But if the hinge fails, the flap won't seat properly and that leads to fogging.
Of course, if you know which holder is leaking, you can simply look at the last sheet of film that was in that holder to see where it was leaking.
Lorem Ipsum - 23 Aug 2005 01:33 GMT This duration of this thread proves that the dumbest questions yield the most responses - a measure of the constituency. Killfile.
johnboy - 13 Aug 2005 20:12 GMT > P.S.: I cut little notches with an XActo knife in the edge of my holders > (between dark slide and film) so they are numbered 1 to N in binary. That > way if there is fog, I can tell what holder and what side has the problem. Jean-David: A modified Hex notation works better for a lot of holders. :) (jjs - who can't resist poking at Good Ideas.)
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Mike - 13 Aug 2005 20:47 GMT > P.S.: I cut little notches with an XActo knife in the edge of my holders > (between dark slide and film) so they are numbered 1 to N in binary. That > way if there is fog, I can tell what holder and what side has the problem. Can you be more specific as to where you cut little notches??
Jean-David Beyer - 13 Aug 2005 20:58 GMT >>P.S.: I cut little notches with an XActo knife in the edge of my holders >>(between dark slide and film) so they are numbered 1 to N in binary. That >>way if there is fog, I can tell what holder and what side has the problem. > > Can you be more specific as to where you cut little notches?? If you remove the dark slide most of the way, you will see it slides in a groove along the 5" side. I notched the plastic closest to the film; i.e., between the dark slide and the film.
There is a decorative pattern moulded on the top of my holders, and I just numbered the pattern (in my mind's eye) and used that as a reference for notching the plastic.
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David Nebenzahl - 13 Aug 2005 21:02 GMT On 8/13/2005 12:47 PM Mike spake thus:
>> P.S.: I cut little notches with an XActo knife in the edge of my holders >> (between dark slide and film) so they are numbered 1 to N in binary. That >> way if there is fog, I can tell what holder and what side has the problem. > > Can you be more specific as to where you cut little notches?? On the rails (on the sides of the holder) which the film goes under. This puts the notches just about on the very edge of the film.
You could also notches in the outer edge of the holder across the 4" width--the one the dark slide emerges from--or even the flap, both of which cast a shadow on the film, again at the very edge.
 Signature - The French Revolutionary Calendar (in use 1793-1806):
* Vendémiaire (from Latin vindemia, "vintage") Starting Sept 22, 23 or 24 * Brumaire (from French brume, "mist") Starting Oct 22, 23 or 24 * Frimaire (From French frimas, "frost") Starting Nov 21, 22 or 23 * Nivôse (from Latin nivosus, "snowy") Starting Dec 21, 22 or 23 * Pluviôse (from Latin pluviosus, "rainy") Starting Jan 20, 21 or 22 * Ventôse (from Latin ventosus, "windy") Starting Feb 19, 20 or 21 * Germinal (from Latin germen, "seed") Starting Mar 20 or 21 * Floréal (from Latin flor, "flower") Starting Apr 20 or 21 * Prairial (from French prairie, "meadow") Starting May 20 or 21 * Messidor (from Latin messis, "harvest") Starting Jun 19 or 20 * Thermidor (from Greek thermos, "hot") Starting Jul 19 or 20 * Fructidor (from Latin fructus, "fruits") Starting Aug 18 or 19
Mike - 13 Aug 2005 22:26 GMT > On the rails (on the sides of the holder) which the film goes under. This puts > the notches just about on the very edge of the film. Ah! I get it. Very nice idea
David Nebenzahl - 13 Aug 2005 22:54 GMT On 8/13/2005 2:26 PM Mike spake thus:
>> On the rails (on the sides of the holder) which the film goes under. This puts >> the notches just about on the very edge of the film. > > Ah! I get it. Very nice idea Actually, after looking at one of my holders again, I may have posted this too hastily. The rails are metal an would be difficult, if not impossible to notch (perhaps with a Dremel, but would leave burrs). So just notch the holder itself, closest to the film. Wooden or plastic holders you should be able to notch with a good sharp knife (Xacto or equivalent).
Another trick I've seen from some old holders I bought from eBay: clear strips taped into the holder with a name written in black marker (ink in the olden days), which would impart a negative image on the film. Probably used by news photogs who shared darkrooms with others to identify their shots.
 Signature - The French Revolutionary Calendar (in use 1793-1806):
* Vendémiaire (from Latin vindemia, "vintage") Starting Sept 22, 23 or 24 * Brumaire (from French brume, "mist") Starting Oct 22, 23 or 24 * Frimaire (From French frimas, "frost") Starting Nov 21, 22 or 23 * Nivôse (from Latin nivosus, "snowy") Starting Dec 21, 22 or 23 * Pluviôse (from Latin pluviosus, "rainy") Starting Jan 20, 21 or 22 * Ventôse (from Latin ventosus, "windy") Starting Feb 19, 20 or 21 * Germinal (from Latin germen, "seed") Starting Mar 20 or 21 * Floréal (from Latin flor, "flower") Starting Apr 20 or 21 * Prairial (from French prairie, "meadow") Starting May 20 or 21 * Messidor (from Latin messis, "harvest") Starting Jun 19 or 20 * Thermidor (from Greek thermos, "hot") Starting Jul 19 or 20 * Fructidor (from Latin fructus, "fruits") Starting Aug 18 or 19
Richard Knoppow - 15 Aug 2005 00:06 GMT >> I suspect a light leak in one of my Regal or Fidelity 4x5 >> film holders. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > way if there is fog, I can tell what holder and what side > has the problem. Another method of doing this is to file notches in the loading door. One can use a sort of Roman numeral notation with square notches for 5 and V notches (edge of file) for 1. For No.12 you would have two square notches and two V notches, etc. Notching this way leaves the marks on the film in the border at the end with the film notches and is visible when the holders are in the light. They are also feelable in the darkroom.
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Frank Pittel - 15 Aug 2005 06:54 GMT : >> I suspect a light leak in one of my Regal or Fidelity 4x5 : >> film holders. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] : > way if there is fog, I can tell what holder and what side : > has the problem.
: Another method of doing this is to file notches in the : loading door. One can use a sort of Roman numeral notation [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] : visible when the holders are in the light. They are also : feelable in the darkroom. Putting the notches on the film holders is a great idea and I like the idea of being able to easily read the notches in the dark.
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Richard Knoppow - 13 Aug 2005 22:55 GMT >I suspect a light leak in one of my Regal or Fidelity 4x5 >film holders. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > light would get > in? The most common leak is at the light valve for the dark slide. To check this use a flashlight. Remove the dark slide and open the loading flap so you can look straight at the slot for the dark slide. Even with a strong flashlight you should not see light through the slot. Another source is a poorly fitting loading flap. The flap has rebates in it that match those on the end of the holder to form a light trap. When the dark slide is in place it locks the flap. When the holder is in the camera pressure from the back plate keeps the holder locked when the dark slide is removed. If something has gotten under the flap, or if the tape hinge is worn enough the flap may not close properly. That can sometimes keep the holder from seating correctly in the camera or keep the dark slide from going in all the way. I have had this happen but its pretty rare. As long as the tape hinge allows the loading flap to move around lengthwise, it is not a source of trouble. Its only function is as a hinge, its not supposed to be a lightproof seal. Calumet has original hinge tape available but nearly any fabric tape will do. It is also possible (but rare) for a badly warped holder to cause a leak but such an extreme warp will be visible especially if you sight along the holder. Another problem is failure of the holder to seat correctly due to some problem in the camera. The best way to find this sort of leak is to put some white paper in the holder and put it in the camera. Then remove the lens board and shine a light all around the back. If here is a leak this will usually show it up. Note that there may be other leaks in the camera mimicking a holder leak. Check for pin holes in the bellows or leaks in the lensboard. Sometimes putting the light inside the camera will show up leaks that do not show by inspecting the inside.
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Nicholas O. Lindan - 14 Aug 2005 21:13 GMT > "Mike" <devnull@example.com> wrote in message > > I suspect a light leak in one of my Regal or Fidelity 4x5 > > film holders. > ...Another problem is failure of the holder to seat > correctly due to some problem in the camera... The fault, dear Richard, is not in our Sinars, But in ourselves, that we are fumblers
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Richard Knoppow - 21 Aug 2005 08:34 GMT Yup!! Virtually every problem I've had with light struck sheet film was due to my not getting the film in the holder right or the holder in the camera right. Sheet film makes you appreciate the simplicity of roll film. Sheet film requires a LOT of attention all the time.
Richard Knoppow dickburk@ix.netcom.com
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