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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Large Format / August 2005

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Polaroid MP-4, strange adapter tubes, mystery

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Richard Karash - 10 Aug 2005 03:47 GMT
I recently bought some Polaroid MP-4 Lenses. These are optimized for 1:1
or greater magnification, and I intend to use them with 35mm gear and a
bellows. The MP-4 lenses cover 4 x 5, so I should be able to use tilts
and swings in the 35mm macro format. Once I got them mounted, they seem
to do very well. Of course, I'm not using the Polaroid (actually Compur)
shutter.

Please help me with this little mystery. The lenses came with two
accessory tubes that I don't understand.

See http://www.karash.com/private/mp4 for photos and text. Or read the
text-only version here.

One tube is a lens adapter (so the lens with M40 x 0.75 threads
can mount in M36 x 0.75 threads). Where would one use this adapter?

The other is a tube with male M40 x 0.75 threads on one end (same
threads as on the lens) and just a cut-off tube at the other end.

The only way these parts fit together is this: The adapter allows the
lens to be mounted on the back of the shutter, which would be inside
the bellows. The other tube goes on the front of the shutter, sort of a
long snout (lens shade ??).

Why? What for?

Maybe it's to get a higher magnification with a short focal length lens.
We're reversing the lens; a known approach for macro. The MP-4 takes a
series of lenses; maybe the short lenses mount backwards. Maybe the
field of view is small compared to the opening of the snout and the
snout is a lens shade. Hmm... But these lenses are symmetrical, so
there's no reason to reverse them. And, for large magnifications with
the 35mm Tominon for example, the lens-subject distance is smaller than
the length of the snout. Mystery.

Maybe it's to get a lesser magnification by moving the lens closer to
the film plane. OK, but how would you manage the aperature? And, with
lesser magnification, the snout would certainly vignette the image.
Mystery.

If anyone can explain the use of these two tubes in the Polaroid MP-4
system, I would appreciate knowing the answer.

  -=- Rick

Signature

Richard Karash <Richard@Karash.com>    
Richard "at" Karash "dot" com

Bandicoot - 10 Aug 2005 06:45 GMT
> I recently bought some Polaroid MP-4 Lenses. These are optimized
> for 1:1 or greater magnification, and I intend to use them with 35mm
> gear and a bellows. The MP-4 lenses cover 4 x 5, so I should be
> able to use tilts and swings in the 35mm macro format. Once I got
> them mounted, they seem to do very well. Of course, I'm not using
> the Polaroid (actually Compur) shutter.

They do cover 4x5, but the ones shorter than 127mm cover it at their
intended magnifications but not at infinity - not that that's going to
matter to you, using them on 35mm.

> Please help me with this little mystery. The lenses came with two
> accessory tubes that I don't understand.
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> takes a series of lenses; maybe the short lenses mount backwards.
> Maybe the field of view is small compared to the opening of the snout >
and the snout is a lens shade. Hmm... But these lenses are
> symmetrical, so there's no reason to reverse them. And, for large
> magnifications with the 35mm Tominon for example, the lens-subject
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> If anyone can explain the use of these two tubes in the Polaroid MP-
> 4 system, I would appreciate knowing the answer.

I think that the M40-M36 adapter is so that you can use the lens on an
enlarger, as this size is used by some enlargers - not 100% certain on that.
As you say, the Tominons are symmetrical lenses, so I don't see any obvious
benefit to being able to mount them reversed, or why you'd want to put them
inside the camera, behind the shutter - I imagine the shutter itself would
vignette with any lens short enough to ever want to reduce the distance from
the film-plane.  I've never seen any Polaroid literature that refers to
doing this, but maybe someone else knows.

The other tube, the one you call the snout, I do have the answer for
however.  It's for photomicrography.  The way it works is that you line up a
microscope, with a photographic 'projection type' eyepiece, under the MP-4
(or MP-3) camera head, with the shutter and this tube mounted, then extend
the camera bellows by an amount that is calculated relevant to the system
magnification of the microscope and lower the camera head so the 'snout'
encloses the microscope tube.  The shutter can then be used to take
photomicrographs onto 4x5, Polaroid, or rollfilm backs in the camera.
Polaroid refers to this item as a "Light Baffle Tube".

Incidentally, don't ignore the idea of using that leaf shutter out of hand.
You could easily enough mount it on your bellows and it would give you some
useful options.  For really high magnification you might be glad that it
introduces less vibration than an SLR's focal plane shutter; it will
synchronise with flash at any of its speeds, true it only goes up to 1/125,
but many older SLRs can't synch. at that speed; and it will allow multiple
exposures more easily than most SLRs.  There are two cable release sockets
on it: one opens the shutter up for viewing; the other cocks and fires it
(when the viewing release isn't being used, obviously.)

You might find it helpful to know the magnification ranges that some of
these lenses were designed for, if you don't have that information already:

17mm f4 Tominon 10-20x
35mm f4 Eurygon  2-10x
50mm f4.5 Tominon 2-5x
75mm f4.5 Tominon up to 4x
105mm f4.5 Tominon up to 1.5x
127mm f4.7 Ysaron up to 1x

(I don't have this information for the 135mm Tominon, would like to hear
from anyone that has.)

I have a Polaroid MP-3 that I use for some macro work with these lenses, and
have put a second shutter into a lensboard for my Arca-Swiss 6x9 so I can
use them away from the studio as well.  If I come across a third shutter
some time, maybe I'll fit one to a mount to use on my 35mm bellows as well.

I have all these sizes except 127mm to screw into the shutter, like the
lenses you have.  I also have another 75mm and two 127mms that have their
own shutters, so the shutter is between the lens groups: don't know if this
is optically any better or not, though these lenses appear to have a better
coating.  The 127mm makes a very nice macro lens on 6x9, where it allows a
decent working distance but is just a bit wider than the 150mm (an
Apo-Ronar) that I use as my 'standard' macro lens for 6x9.

Hope this is some help; despite the age of these designs, they're good,
sharp, lenses.

Peter
Dan Fromm - 10 Aug 2005 12:25 GMT
If this answer turns up twice, apologies.

Guys, the MP-4 Tominons, excepting the 50/4.5, which Polaroid says is a
"six element symmetrical triplet", and the 17/4 are all tessars.
Asymmetrical.  The 35/4 Eurygon, a Rodenstock lens, isn't a tessar but
is very asymmetrical.

All of the MP-4 lenses are intended to screw into the front of a #1
shutter.  Use them facing normally (threaded end towards the film) at
their recommended ranges of magnification.  I b'lieve that the
recommended ranges are in fact what they'll give on an MP-4.  Testing
to determine optimal magnifications is recommended.

The 135/4.5 Tominon is intended to be used from infinity to around 3:1.
See http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/microlen.htm

There are better macro lenses, but at the low prices they command on
eBay the MP-4 Tominons are great values.  That said, in the range 1:1
to 8:1, as high as I've tried it, a reversed 55/2.8 AIS MicroNikkor
shot at f/4, not wide open, is a world beater.
Richard Karash - 10 Aug 2005 14:32 GMT
> If this answer turns up twice, apologies.
>
> Guys, the MP-4 Tominons, excepting the 50/4.5, which Polaroid says is a
> "six element symmetrical triplet", and the 17/4 are all tessars.
> Asymmetrical.  The 35/4 Eurygon, a Rodenstock lens, isn't a tessar but
> is very asymmetrical.

Thanks. I stand corrected.

> All of the MP-4 lenses are intended to screw into the front of a #1
> shutter.  Use them facing normally (threaded end towards the film) at
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> The 135/4.5 Tominon is intended to be used from infinity to around 3:1.
>  See http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/microlen.htm

Thanks... The numbers on that page match with Ken Rice's numbers for
use in the MP-4.

  -=- Rick

Signature

Richard Karash <Richard@Karash.com>    
Richard "at" Karash "dot" com

Richard Karash - 10 Aug 2005 17:17 GMT
> There are better macro lenses, but at the low prices they command on
> eBay the MP-4 Tominons are great values.  That said, in the range 1:1
> to 8:1, as high as I've tried it, a reversed 55/2.8 AIS MicroNikkor
> shot at f/4, not wide open, is a world beater.

Thanks for the tip, Dan. In my standard test shot, the reversed 55/2.8
is pretty impressive at f/4 and f/5.6.

You have both.. when do you use the view camera macro lenses (e.g.
Tominons) and when the 55 reversed?

  -=- Rick

Signature

Richard Karash <Richard@Karash.com>    
Richard "at" Karash "dot" com

Dan Fromm - 11 Aug 2005 12:06 GMT
Rick asked "when do you use the view camera macro lenses (e.g.
Tominons) and when the 55 reversed?"

I rarely use either.  This because I do most of my macro shooting in
the field.

On 35 mm, I usually use a 105 MicroNikkor, sometimes on PN-11 tube; it
goes as high as 1:0.88, and that's about as high as shooting hand-held
with flash is practical.

On 2x3 I usually use a 100/6.3 Neupolar, which goes up to a little over
2:1.  I shoot it on a 2x3 Speed Graphic on a 2-axis focusing rail on a
tripod.  Usually with flash.

I sometimes work at higher magnifications at home on a copy stand.  I
use a 25/3.5 Luminar (not quite as good as a reversed 25/1.9 Cine Ektar
II shot at f/2.8, but somehow easier to use) around 5:1, which is
usually all I need.  The 55 MicroNikkor and 50 Tominon need more
extension to get that magnification than is convenient. My 17/4 Tominon
needs less extension but isn't great at 5:1 and has short working
distance.  My 35 Tominon is an alternative, but the 25s shoot better
and have adequate working distance.

Thanks for asking the question.  I've accumulated more macro lenses
than I need and you've indirectly encouraged me to wonder why I'm
holding on to them.  I've already sold all but one of my 35 Tominons
and all of the 50s, 75s, and 135s.  Never had a 105.
Bandicoot - 11 Aug 2005 01:18 GMT
> If this answer turns up twice, apologies.
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> The 135/4.5 Tominon is intended to be used from infinity to > around 3:1.
>  See http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/microlen.htm

Thanks for that - very interesting,

Peter
(wondering why I'd always thought they were symmetrical - and wondering why
I'd never actually gazed into them to check!)
Sally Shears - 10 Aug 2005 14:25 GMT
> You might find it helpful to know the magnification ranges that some of
> these lenses were designed for, if you don't have that information already:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> (I don't have this information for the 135mm Tominon, would like to hear
> from anyone that has.)

Thanks, Peter.

Back in 1999, Ken Rice posted info on MP-3/4 lenses from his notes and
Polaroid publications. This includes the 135mm Tominon.

Text about MP-4 Tominons lifted from here (table reformatted so it
won't wrap; fixed width font will show table best):

----- QUOTED TEXT -----
FROM: Ken Rice
SUBJECT: Polaroid macro lens specs
DATE: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 22:45:15 GMT
ORGANIZATION: Intermedia Business Internet - Beltsville, MD
NEWSGROUPS: rec.photo.equipment.large-format

I posted a comment about doing macro on 4x5 view cameras using the macro
lenses designed for the Polaroid MP-3 and the MP-4. Someone responded by
asking for more information than I supplied in the first post. (Sorry,
lost that address, but here it is).

                             ------ Magnification ------
Construction      Focal Len    Min   Max    1 ext   2 ext
----------------------------------------------------------

4 el. 3 group      135mm       Inf   1.3x    2.2x    3.3x
4 el. 3 group      105mm       .3x   1.9x    3.1x    4.3x
4 el. 3 group       75mm      2.0x   3.2x    4.8x    6.4x
6 el. symetrical
triplet            50mm      1.5x   5.2x    7.6x   10.0x
4 el. 3 group       35mm      5.0x   8.0x   11.1x   14.8x
6 el. 4 group       17mm     10.0x  19.8x   26.9x   34.0x
                   10mm       27x

The specs are extracted from a number of things that I have in my files
at school. Min. mag. means minimum magnification when mounted on a
Polaroid MP-4 (I don't have any literature from the MP-3, but suspect
that  specifications would be quite similar). Max. mag. means Maximum
magnification. Polaroid's MP-4 has a fairly short bellows and they sell
extension pieces to compensate. When mounted on a studio view, the
maximum magnification could exceed the 2 ext. figures.
   Magnification means the number of diameters of magnifications at the
film plane. For example a coin measuring 10mm would give an image of
20mm at the film plane at 2.0x. Another way of expressing this is to say
that 2.0x provides a 200% magnificaton.
   The 10mm lens is a rare bird. The only specifications that I have
(shown above starting with 27x) come from a pamphlet on CU-5 operation.
   When removed from the Polaroid CU-5, frames, the lenses and shutters
are the same as used on the MP-4 (the lenses and shutters for the MP-3
vary only slightly and are easily mounted on a lens board - in fact the
MP-3 used small aluminum lens boards, while the MP-4 uses flat plastic
disks (they're round).

   Here are some other notes from my file:
   Polaroid says that their lenses (marked Tominon and Polaroid) use
Tiffen adapter rings for the front of the lens, which is threaded 39.5
M6.

------- END OF QUOTED TEXT from Ken Rice -------

Peter, your notes about design magnification are a little different from
the magnification ranges above.  I'm starting with the assumption that
the lenses perform reasonably in Polaroid's ranges.  What's the source
for your numbers for design magnification range?

   -=- Rick
Bandicoot - 11 Aug 2005 01:28 GMT
> > You might find it helpful to know the magnification ranges
> > that some of these lenses were designed for, if you don't
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> from his notes and Polaroid publications. This includes the
> 135mm Tominon.

[Very useful quoted text Snipped]

>  ------- END OF QUOTED TEXT from Ken Rice -------
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Polaroid's ranges.  What's the source for your numbers for
> design magnification range?

Thanks for that information, very interesting.

My figures came from the Polaroid manual for the MP-3.  That's why I didn't
have figures for the 135mm, which they weren't making at the time that
manual was published.

The bellows on the MP-3 is longer than on the MP-4, though there is also an
extension available that is recommended for getting the higher
magnifications with the 35mm lens.  Since the lenses were originally
designed for this camera and then carried over to the MP-4, I wonder if the
'original' design magnification ranges match better to the 'original' design
performance of the lenses, hence are a better guide when planning to use
them on some other camera? - just a thought.  Anyway, the more recent data
for the MP-4 is a useful addition for me: thanks again.

Peter
Sally Shears - 10 Aug 2005 14:26 GMT
> The other tube, the one you call the snout, I do have the answer for
> however.  It's for photomicrography.  The way it works is that you line up a
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> photomicrographs onto 4x5, Polaroid, or rollfilm backs in the camera.
> Polaroid refers to this item as a "Light Baffle Tube".

Thank you. That clears up the "snout" mystery.  

   -=- Rick
Bandicoot - 11 Aug 2005 02:05 GMT
> I recently bought some Polaroid MP-4 Lenses. These are
> optimized for 1:1 or greater magnification, and I intend to
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Please help me with this little mystery. The lenses came with > two
accessory tubes that I don't understand.

> See http://www.karash.com/private/mp4 for photos and
> text. Or read the text-only version here.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> allows the lens to be mounted on the back of the shutter,
> which would be inside the bellows.

Well, whaddya know, looks like this weird little adapter is for mounting the
75mm lens inside the shutter after all - today I just happened upon this
*bay auction,

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/POLAROID-MP-4-75mm-LENS-REDUCTION-KIT_W0QQitemZ7537704923

in which the listing quites the instructions for this thing as saying:
"The reduction kit is designed to acheive extreme reductions with the MP-4
camera, generally for the purpose of producing slides. It is used with the
75mm lens in conjunction with the Polaroid Land roll film holder.  The
purpose of the kit is to bring the lens closer to the film plane than would
otherwise be possible. This is done by mounting the lens on top of the
shutter, inside the camera, rather than below."  Sounds, from the rest of
the listing, as if there was a special lensboard to use with this on the
MP-4 that allowed you still to adjust the aperture even with the lens inside
the bellows.

Intriguing... (though, probably, not very useful today.)

Peter
Richard Karash - 15 Aug 2005 04:02 GMT
> > I recently bought some Polaroid MP-4 Lenses.  
> > ...SNIP...
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> Intriguing... (though, probably, not very useful today.)

I saw the same listing... Stands to reason, if the lens is optimum for
2x-6x magnification, then to get reduction you reverse the lens and get
it very close to the film, e.g. for making a 35mm slide from a letter
size original.

That soles the mystery. Thanks.

  -=- Rick

Signature

Richard Karash <Richard@Karash.com>    
Richard "at" Karash "dot" com

 
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