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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Large Format / March 2005

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Back in Time

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Gregory Blank - 26 Mar 2005 21:53 GMT
I wonder how many people that read this group, would
go back in time if they could? To what era and for what
purpose? Personally to the late 1800's -1880-1890 when
big cameras were really big :-)

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LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

John Bartley - 27 Mar 2005 00:21 GMT
>I wonder how many people that read this group, would
>go back in time if they could? To what era and for what
>purpose? Personally to the late 1800's -1880-1890 when
>big cameras were really big :-)

Well, I was born in '58, so I don't remember much before about '62, but
I "think" I'd like to live in the early to mid '60's. Fuel was never
going to run out. Nobody had you on their database, medical technology
was doing pretty good, you could kiss a girl without getting aids,
criminals were punished - not rehabilitated, a kid could hitchhike
without fear of getting murdered (most of the time) and drivers could
pick up a hitchhiker without the same fear, newspapers were about as
fast as TV's for getting the news to you, so you didn't live in a "real
time" newsworld.

Bottom line - it was slower - maybe less stressfull? - you had to wait
for your pictures - there was no digital to provide the "instant
gratification" that's demanded today.

Todays generation? - I call them, all ages of them, the "me, first,
NOW!" generation. I dropped out of that bunch a long time ago.

cheers

Signature

regards from ::

John Bartley
43 Norway Spruce Street
Stittsville, Ontario
Canada, K2S1P5

( If you slow down it takes longer
      - does that apply to life also?)

jjs - 27 Mar 2005 00:55 GMT
> Well, I was born in '58, so I don't remember much before about '62, but I
> "think" I'd like to live in the early to mid '60's.
[...]
> Bottom line - it was slower - maybe less stressfull?

Vietnam, the Draft, the Civil Rights conflicts, the death of JFK, riots in
Chicago, Detroit, California, political assassinations, yeah, less
stressful. Sure.
John Bartley - 27 Mar 2005 03:28 GMT
>Vietnam, the Draft, the Civil Rights conflicts, the death of JFK, riots in
>Chicago, Detroit, California, political assassinations, yeah, less
>stressful. Sure.
>  

About the only thing that I personally remember about the early '60's
was watching JFK's funeral on TV. It was in B&W as we didn;t have a
colour set then. In fact we didn't have colour for another 15 years
after that.

I guess that we could all look at any year that we lived and find a ton
of bad things, but I don't think we've made great strides in "quality of
life" in the last 40 years. I think we've mostly speeded things up a lot.

cheers

Signature

regards from ::

John Bartley
43 Norway Spruce Street
Stittsville, Ontario
Canada, K2S1P5

( If you slow down it takes longer
      - does that apply to life also?)

Jean-David Beyer - 27 Mar 2005 04:45 GMT
>> Vietnam, the Draft, the Civil Rights conflicts, the death of JFK,
>> riots in Chicago, Detroit, California, political assassinations, yeah,
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> of bad things, but I don't think we've made great strides in "quality of
> life" in the last 40 years. I think we've mostly speeded things up a lot.

Well, as Ansel Adams once said (in a slightly different context) "Why is
it that, with so much progress, there is so little improvement?"

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jjs - 27 Mar 2005 04:55 GMT
> Well, as Ansel Adams once said (in a slightly different context) "Why is
> it that, with so much progress, there is so little improvement?"

There you go again, injecting on-topic material into an irrelevant thread.
:)
jjs - 27 Mar 2005 04:47 GMT
>>Vietnam, the Draft, the Civil Rights conflicts, the death of JFK, riots in
>>Chicago, Detroit, California, political assassinations, yeah, less
>>stressful. Sure.

> About the only thing that I personally remember about the early '60's was
> watching JFK's funeral on TV. It was in B&W as we didn;t have a colour set
> then. In fact we didn't have colour for another 15 years after that.
>
> I guess that we could all look at any year that we lived and find a ton of
> bad things,

Yeah, for your generation the bad things were what, besides Disco? :)
Shelley - 27 Mar 2005 13:31 GMT
I'd like to go back about three  years, to the days when there were a lot of
knowledgeable and helpful people in this group who actually posted questions
and answers that dealt with large format photography equipment.
Unfortunately they have been driven away by the small handful of
people who still regularly post here and who seem to regard this group is
their own personal vehicle for whatever kind of irrelvant inanity they
choose to post.

> >Vietnam, the Draft, the Civil Rights conflicts, the death of JFK, riots in
> >Chicago, Detroit, California, political assassinations, yeah, less
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> cheers
John Bartley - 27 Mar 2005 14:15 GMT
>I'd like to go back about three  years, to the days when there were a lot of
>knowledgeable and helpful people in this group who actually posted questions
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>their own personal vehicle for whatever kind of irrelvant inanity they
>choose to post.

When you took your pills this morning, you got your grumpy pills by
mistake and then took too many anal pills to boot :-)

I hear lives are on sale at Walmart, maybe you can afford one now?

Signature

regards from ::

John Bartley
43 Norway Spruce Street
Stittsville, Ontario
Canada, K2S1P5

( If you slow down it takes longer
      - does that apply to life also?)

John - 28 Mar 2005 17:57 GMT
>I'd like to go back about three  years, to the days when there were a lot of
>knowledgeable and helpful people in this group who actually posted questions
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>their own personal vehicle for whatever kind of irrelvant inanity they
>choose to post.

    Quite right.

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
wayne99@fastmail.fm - 30 Mar 2005 03:13 GMT
> I'd like to go back about three  years, to the days when there were a lot of
> knowledgeable and helpful people in this group who actually posted questions
> and answers that dealt with large format photography equipment.

Hey, I remember those days!
Gregory Blank - 30 Mar 2005 03:27 GMT
> > I'd like to go back about three  years, to the days when there were a
> lot of
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Hey, I remember those days!

I do too I liked those days, I'll never forget one of the best people
who ever welcomed and encouraged me to participate on these forums and
the internet. There used to be lots of good people contributing here.

A gentleman by the name of John Rudiak.

Here's a little about him ----R.I.P John-. "A very good guy IMOP".

He died in Taos the very year I went there for the first time,...I never
realized that until just now.

John Rudiak received a BS in Chemistry in 1973 and an MFA in Photography
from the Rhode Island School of Design in 1977, studying with Harry
Callahan and Aaron Siskind.

He then became a faculty member in the Photo Department at RISD where he
taught all levels of photography until moving to Taos, NM in 1990. While
in Rhode Island he worked as a photochemist for Sprint Systems of
Photography developing original formulas and procedures for contemporary
and antique photo processes, as well as writing technical literature. He
formed Alchemy Printmaking in 1988, producing portfolios for other
photographic artists in alternative printmaking media such as platinum
and albumen.

In 1993 he was named contributing technical editor and writer for View
Camera Magazine, which published two of his articles on platinum
printing in 1994. Recent projects produced by Alchemy include the Jazz
Portfolio, ten photographs of jazz musicians taken in the 60's and 70's
by San Francisco photographer Jim Marshall, and a Landscape Portfolio by
photographer Douglas Busch. John worked on two major platinum portfolios
for Baron Wolman and Terry Heffernan, and taught antique processes at
the University of New Mexico. John also wrote a chapter (Enlarged
Negatives) for the textbook "Coming Into Focus".
John died in a motorcycle accident in Taos, New Mexico in 2000

Signature

LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

Gregory Blank - 30 Mar 2005 03:43 GMT
> He died in Taos the very year I went there for the first time,...I never

> John died in a motorcycle accident in Taos, New Mexico in 2000

I stand corrected I was there in 1998, my father died in 2000. Oh well.

Signature

LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

Lloyd Erlick - 27 Mar 2005 19:04 GMT
>I wonder how many people that read this group, would
>go back in time if they could? To what era and for what
>purpose? Personally to the late 1800's -1880-1890 when
>big cameras were really big :-)

mar2705 from Lloyd Erlick,

I'd be satisfied if I could just look. Here's an
invention for someone to work on (I'm sure there's a
Nobel Prize in it ...) -- a video camera - maybe even
digital! ... - that peers wherever the user wants, any
place, any time in the past. So much for privacy, I
guess. History might never be the same.

regards,
--le
Signature

________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________

John - 28 Mar 2005 16:50 GMT
>I wonder how many people that read this group, would
>go back in time if they could? To what era and for what
>purpose? Personally to the late 1800's -1880-1890 when
>big cameras were really big :-)

    1920's~1930's. I'd like to have worked at Kodak during that
timeframe.

Regards,

  John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
John Bartley - 28 Mar 2005 19:15 GMT
>    1920's~1930's. I'd like to have worked at Kodak during that
>timeframe.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>   John S. Douglas, Photographer -  http://www.puresilver.org
>  

I'm not so sure that you would have wanted to "work", unless you could
be other than the average blue collar employee. Engineering, business
management, the "office" positions might have been ok but....you might
however (as per Lloyd Erlick)

>I'd be satisfied if I could just look.

I have a feeling that the working conditions on the whole were pretty
crummy, especially during the thirties. I wonder what the average worker
in a chemical based industry absorbed thru' skin contact or inhaled.

It would however be nice to be a "decades long" spectator and see the
photographic processes as they were developed  and see the changes in
the technology as well as the changes in the manufacturing processes.

cheers

Signature

regards from ::

John Bartley
43 Norway Spruce Street
Stittsville, Ontario
Canada, K2S1P5

( If you slow down it takes longer
      - does that apply to life also?)

jjs - 28 Mar 2005 21:23 GMT
>> 1920's~1930's. I'd like to have worked at Kodak during that
>>timeframe.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I'm not so sure that you would have wanted to "work", unless you could be
> other than the average blue collar employee.

Kodak was the first company to have employee profit sharing and he went out
of his way to be sure his employees were the better paid, and well
accomodated.
John Bartley - 28 Mar 2005 22:47 GMT
>Kodak was the first company to have employee profit sharing and he went out
>of his way to be sure his employees were the better paid, and well
>accomodated.

I believe that. I've worked for companies where the pay was not just
good, but great, where historically the employees were well treated,
where good accomodations, medical care etc....were all provided, but
where simply because of a lack of "knowledge" not a lack of caring, some
groups of employees either dies young, or suffered thru' old age as a
result.. It's not always the companies fault but rather a lack of
understanding. Twenty five years ago I worked with guys who were my age
now (47), who coughed steady from silicosis or couldn't feel anything
with their always-cold fingers from capillary damage. Today that doesn't
have to happen in civilised workplaces. Imagine what it was like even
just 40 years ago, never mind 80 ?

As I said - I'd love to be able to "see" the first negative, the first
print, the first radio set, the first TV, but if I could choose to live
in a different age, I'd still pick the early sixties. What's it like to
be able to walk to your local photo or chemistry store and buy D23
"mixings" right off the shelf? It must be nice. How long is it going to
be before we all need to take a course, pass an exam and have a license
just to buy those same chemicals?

Signature

regards from ::

John Bartley
43 Norway Spruce Street
Stittsville, Ontario
Canada, K2S1P5

( If you slow down it takes longer
      - does that apply to life also?)

jjs - 28 Mar 2005 23:18 GMT
> As I said - I'd love to be able to "see" the first negative, the first
> print, the first radio set, the first TV, but if I could choose to live in
> a different age, I'd still pick the early sixties. What's it like to be
> able to walk to your local photo or chemistry store and buy D23 "mixings"
> right off the shelf?

I see you are Canadian - therein is the difference. I'd really not want to
repeat the sixties in the USA.
David Starr - 29 Mar 2005 00:05 GMT
>I believe that. I've worked for companies where the pay was not just
>good, but great, where historically the employees were well treated,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>have to happen in civilised workplaces. Imagine what it was like even
>just 40 years ago, never mind 80 ?

I started at GM in Jan, 1965, in the Buick Foundry.  You could walk up
to a 200 watt light bulb and count the number of turns in the filament
without even squinting.  It was that dirty.  You literally couldn't
see 20 feet.  Anyone that wore a dust mask was a "sissy".  Houses and
cars along the dtreet east of the foundry were all rust colored due to
the crud coming out of the cupola stacks.  When the foundry shut down
in 1980, there were emission systems on the cupolas and nothing but
steam came out the top.  Inside, most areas were quite clean.  

When the foundry closed in 1980, the building was converted to a
machining plant.  We've made all the 245mm torque converters GM uses
since then.  No sand or coke dust, but I've often wondered if the
daust was as bad as all the mist from metal working compounds in the
air.

Anyway, I retired Feb 1, and since then my hearing's gotten a bit
better, and my sense of smell is improving too. Not that you need
either one for photography, but thet're nice to have.  :-)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Dave Starr, Senior Shop Rat Emeritus: 14,647 days in a GM plant.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
John Bartley - 29 Mar 2005 01:02 GMT
>I started at GM in Jan, 1965, in the Buick Foundry.  ...snipped...
>
>Anyway, I retired Feb 1, and since then my hearing's gotten a bit
>better, and my sense of smell is improving too. Not that you need
>either one for photography, but thet're nice to have.  :-)

Speaking of photography in workplaces we were NOT permitted cameras in
the mines. This photo (this is not LF - I do apologise) was taken by an
"exchange" mining engineer from the UK who was at our site during 1979
and 1980

April 1980  -  3750' - 2506 stope - Dome mines

http://www3.sympatico.ca/oldrad/Photo/Digital/2506StopeCrew.jpg

If you weren't management (I wasn't) or didn't have written permission,
bringing a camera underground was cause for termination of employment. I
would love to be able to take my 4x5 underground and get photos with
real detail of the places that I worked. It would be a lot of work. The
lighting would ALL be artificial. There is NO natural light at -3750'.

Photos of workplaces are something I'm always interested in. This is an
email notice that I rec'd yesterday :

> We had advertised the sale of 40+ glass slides of 1929/35 vintage showing
> various tube production processes and other photos at RCA

I've sent a message asking if Icould print these before they get sold.
I'm assuming that they're glass plates.

cheers

Signature

regards from ::

John Bartley
43 Norway Spruce Street
Stittsville, Ontario
Canada, K2S1P5

( If you slow down it takes longer
      - does that apply to life also?)

joe smigiel - 29 Mar 2005 04:20 GMT
David,

Was that in Flint?  That's where I hail from.  I worked for awhile at AC
including the Industrial Avenue plant before they shut it down. Only 3
of us on the night shift in the entire plant.  You could see where
forktrucks had fallen through the floors, etc.

I was thinking about the factory the other day.  I'm going to start
doing LF wetplate collodion (to get back on topic) and am wondering how
one might acquire potassium cyanide for the process in this day?
(Probably need some sort of permit that will get you on a
well-scrutinized list somewhere.)  Back at AC I used to sweep up
50-pound bags of the stuff on the plating department floor that the
forktrucks had either dropped or ran over.

Personally, I think I'd fit photographically in 1907.  My favorite
photos are in Camera Work that year and a lot was changing in the art
scene.  Imagine what it would be like to be on the scene with the likes
of Steichen, Seeley, Steiglitz, White, Picasso, Mattisse, etc.

Joe

>>I believe that. I've worked for companies where the pay was not just
>>good, but great, where historically the employees were well treated,
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> Dave Starr, Senior Shop Rat Emeritus: 14,647 days in a GM plant.
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Gregory Blank - 29 Mar 2005 04:57 GMT
> David,
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Joe

Someone said this is non relevant thread,...anyway :-)

I think you could possibly mean potassium ferricyanide?

Try http://www.artcraftchemicals.com 

its $14.00 a pound.

Signature

LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

Peter Irwin - 29 Mar 2005 05:39 GMT
>> David,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> I think you could possibly mean potassium ferricyanide?

Potassium Cyanide (or Sodium Cyanide) was often used as fixer
in wet plate processing. The advantage over Hypo is speed.
Cyanide fixes very quickly and takes only one minute to wash
out. Hypo was also in common use, but it takes longer to
fix, and the plate must be washed for several minutes.
If speed of processing isn't a big concern, then non-toxic
fixers are a good idea.

Charles Dodgson (Lewis Caroll) used Hypo (See Hiawatha's Photography),
and his wet plate negatives seem to have survived quite well, so
it appears the only advantage to cyanide is speed in processing.

Sodium Cyanide is listed at $35/pound at <http://www.jdphotochem.com/>,
it is VERY poisonous. It is a very effective and rapid fixer, but
I wouldn't want any of it in my darkroom.

Peter.
Signature

pirwin@ktb.net

joe smigiel - 29 Mar 2005 13:35 GMT
>>>David,
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Peter.

As I understand it, the action of potassium cyanide is more efficient
not only in terms of speed but also in degree.  KCN is used for
ambrotypes which need a very clear emulsion to be be viewed properly.
Hypo is used for the negatives where a bit of base fog is
inconsequential, but for the positives KCN is apparently the preferred
fixer.

Joe
David Starr - 30 Mar 2005 00:13 GMT
>David,
>
>Was that in Flint?  That's where I hail from.  I worked for awhile at AC
>including the Industrial Avenue plant before they shut it down. Only 3
>of us on the night shift in the entire plant.  You could see where
>forktrucks had fallen through the floors, etc.

Yup.  Remember Buick?  Everything from Hamilton to Leith is gone -
leveled - and the demo guys are slowly working their way North.  I
worked midnights for several years and took a 35mm in there once.  The
guy at the lab I took them to said they went nuts trying to balance
fluorescent, incandescent, mercury vapor and sodium lighting.  :-)

I'd love to take my 4x5 back in there.  There'd be some interesting
shots of the machinery.  The iron pouring in the foundry would have
made for some spectacular shots.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Dave Starr, Senior Shop Rat Emeritus: 14,647 days in a GM plant.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
jjs - 30 Mar 2005 02:49 GMT
When I was a child the smell of coal and the haze of burning it was
predominate. It was a heartening smell because it meant we were keeping
ourselves warm, and made a ritual of washing our white collared clothes
quite often. It was not a good thing to bring to bare the consequences of
our efforts to be comfortable.  Of course, my impression is local, not
global. Many decades later the smell of wood burning had a similar effect,
however with a different scent of politics; almost certainly unjustified.
Chris Brown - 29 Mar 2005 12:28 GMT
>I wonder how many people that read this group, would
>go back in time if they could? To what era and for what
>purpose? Personally to the late 1800's -1880-1890 when
>big cameras were really big :-)

Well, if I were to choose the period in which I could live (not quite the
question you aksed, I appreciate), I think it would be a choice between
living in Imperial Rome at the height of its powers, provided I had money,
or London in around 1880, provided I had money. ;-)
rafe bustin - 29 Mar 2005 13:29 GMT
>>I wonder how many people that read this group, would
>>go back in time if they could? To what era and for what
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>living in Imperial Rome at the height of its powers, provided I had money,
>or London in around 1880, provided I had money. ;-)

"Provided you have money" is a big if, and
generally makes any time better, including
right now.  It's (always) good to be king.

rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com
 
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