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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Large Format / December 2004

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Neil Purling - 14 Dec 2004 20:35 GMT
I have a 4x5 Crown Graphic. It is indellibly linked with photojournalism but
hey.. If it makes people wait while you fire the shutter instead of getting
in the way...
Now, I want someone to clarify the technique of using front tilt to increase
the zone of sharpness at a given aperture.
How does one juggle focusing and tilting?
Do you focus for the foreground and use the movement to increase the
sharpness of the background.
I presume it is a matter of a lot of playing about.
The Pacemaker Graphics do not have forwards tilt on the front standard but
if you drop the bed and use a bit of rise there you are.
Largformat - 15 Dec 2004 00:48 GMT
Not everyone will agree with this explanation but here goes

I use front tilt and swing to rotate the plane of focus to more closely line up
with the plane of the subject. Back swing and tilt will do the same but these
movements will also change shapes and size relationships between objects.

Tilt/swings do not really enlarge the dof area as much as they align it with
the pplane of the subject.

As an exercise take your camera out to a road and set it up level front to rear
and left to right. Focus at an approx mid point in the road as it moves away
from you. The bottom of the road (at the top of the gg) and the distant section
of the road (at the bottom of the gg) will not both be in focus at the same
time. Now, ever so slightly and slowly begin titling the front and see what
happens. This will take some practice but the amount of tilt required will be
less than many people think.You may have to do a little re-focussing as you
tilt. Just go slow and watch the gg and see what happens. A 4x loupe will help.

Here is some suggested reading

User's Guide to the View Camera by Jim Stone

Using the View Camera that I wrote

Large Format Nature Photography by Jack Dykinga

All three are books you can get from Amazon.com

steve simmons
rafe bustin - 15 Dec 2004 04:29 GMT
>Not everyone will agree with this explanation but here goes
>
>I use front tilt and swing to rotate the plane of focus to more closely line up
>with the plane of the subject. Back swing and tilt will do the same but these
>movements will also change shapes and size relationships between objects.

On my camera (Shen Hao) the back-tilt adjustment is
a bit easier to handle mechanically.  Easier to
make fine adjustments and lock down after each
iteration for focus-check.

I understand there'll be some geometric distortion
from back tilt, but that wouldn't show in most of
my landscape pix, I don't think.  As you say -- the
tilt is usually slight, I'm guessing within 10
degrees of vertical in most cases.

rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com
jjs - 15 Dec 2004 13:36 GMT
> [... snip most excellent article ...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> tilt. Just go slow and watch the gg and see what happens. A 4x loupe will
> help.

Thank you for that, Mr. Simmons.
Ronin - 15 Dec 2004 15:45 GMT
> Using the View Camera that I wrote
>
> steve simmons

I've got your book right here
greetings from Italy

:-)
Stacey - 15 Dec 2004 00:49 GMT
> The Pacemaker Graphics do not have forwards tilt on the front standard but
> if you drop the bed and use a bit of rise there you are.

You'll find you need VERY little tilt to acomplish what you need for most
landscape shooting. The mistake most newbies make is thinking they need to
tilt it a bunch to see anything. It's not hard to modify the front standard
to get a little down tilt without resorting to the bed drop ordeal.

Signature


 Stacey

Dean Van Praotl - 15 Dec 2004 08:09 GMT
"Neil Purling" <neil@sextant.karoo.co.uk> apparently said:

>clarify the technique of using front tilt to increase
>the zone of sharpness at a given aperture.

Tilts, and their horizontal counterpart, swings, do not increase
the zone of sharpness.  What they do, is to change the plane
of sharp focus.  With an untilted lens, a camera can sharply
focus a plane that is parallel to the lensboard only.  When
the lens is tilted forward, the plane of sharp focus also tilts.
Do a search for "Scheimpflug" and you'll get all the details.

When your subject consists of essentially the ground
between you and the horizon, with maybe a mountain in
the background, tilts let you align the plane of sharp focus
with the subject.  The result is the appearance of immense
depth of field, even with the lens wide open.

>How does one juggle focusing and tilting?

Juggling is a good analogy.

>Do you focus for the foreground and use the movement to increase the
>sharpness of the background.
>I presume it is a matter of a lot of playing about.

That's the usual way.  Use a loupe on the groundglass to
fine focus a point in the foreground, then tilt to bring a
far point into focus.  Go back and refocus the near, retilt
for the far.  After a couple of iterations things will look good.

>The Pacemaker Graphics do not have forwards tilt on the front standard but
>if you drop the bed and use a bit of rise there you are.

Yup, you've figgered it out.  The problem there, is that every time
you tilt (with the bed dropped) you'll unfocus the whole image,
so there will be more putzing around.  Some people have also gotten
around the Graphics lack of native front tilt by reversing the
front standard.  Then, of course, you lose the ability to drop
the bed, unless you do some hacking on the standards.
Tom Phillips - 15 Dec 2004 12:19 GMT
> I have a 4x5 Crown Graphic. It is indellibly linked with photojournalism but
> hey.. If it makes people wait while you fire the shutter instead of getting
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> sharpness of the background.
> I presume it is a matter of a lot of playing about.

With a camera that tilts from near the rail or
bottom of the standard, I generally begin with the
background (D-far), since a forward tilt inclines
the plane of focus toward D-near (i.e., the axis
of rotation is not centered.) This is not an exact
science in my experience especially with a field
camera, unless you use a camera (like Sinar) that
tells you the exact degree of tilt needed based on
a two point focusing of D-near and D-far. Refocusing
and/or slight retilting will be necessary.

In other words doing this visually usually requires
some trial and error experience. And as you're altering
a parallel plane of critical focus (from a zeroed camera
to an inclined front standard), unless your subject is
flat (receding two dimensionally) you will have objects
that fall outside the adjusted inclined plane of
critical focus. This is due to the Scheimpflug Rule.
In other words you are actually fousing on a series of
objects that vary in distance top to bottom and will
also be altering the near and far limits of depth of
field. Meaning since depth of field space is actually
curved, your new D-far (most distant object you want
in acceptably sharp focus) will be somewhere in the
middle of the image area beyond the inclined plane of
focus.

I know that sounds a bit abstract but once you adjust
the plane of focus for background and foreground,
you'll need to recalulate your depth of field based on
a new D-far.
BBarlow690 - 17 Dec 2004 20:51 GMT
Keep it simple: Focus on the Far, TIlt for the Near.  Do it in that sequence,
and then make tiny adjustments to both focus and tilt until it's exactly right.

If you go practice this for 20 minutes, you'll do it right forever.
Leonard Evens - 18 Dec 2004 02:16 GMT
> Keep it simple: Focus on the Far, TIlt for the Near.  Do it in that sequence,
> and then make tiny adjustments to both focus and tilt until it's exactly right.
>
> If you go practice this for 20 minutes, you'll do it right forever.

It might not work for everyone.  It didn't for me.  One problem is that
it is harder to do it your way if you have base tilt.  Another is that
it is not always clear whether or not you should increase or decrease
the tilt if you don't get close on the first try.  But simple rule can
help with that.  Namely you first focus on the far point, and tilt.  You
then refocus if necessary on the far point and then focus on the near
point.  If you have to move the back standard away from the front
standard to do that,  you increase the tilt.  If you have to move the
back standard towards the front standard to do that,  you decrease the tilt.
Frank Pittel - 18 Dec 2004 06:37 GMT
: > Keep it simple: Focus on the Far, TIlt for the Near.  Do it in that sequence,
: > and then make tiny adjustments to both focus and tilt until it's exactly right.
: >
: > If you go practice this for 20 minutes, you'll do it right forever.

: It might not work for everyone.  It didn't for me.  One problem is that
: it is harder to do it your way if you have base tilt.  Another is that
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
: standard to do that,  you increase the tilt.  If you have to move the
: back standard towards the front standard to do that,  you decrease the tilt.

When I decide I need to use front tilt  I do so in a couple of ways depending
on my mood and the situation. The first is to focus so that the center of the
image is focused on my desired plane of focus. I then adjust the tilt so that
the top and the bottom of the image are in focus. This is repeated as needed.
As you would guess it rarely works well. :-) The second is to focus on the
furthest object that I want on the plane of focus and the I focus on the
nearest object on the desired plan of focus. I then split the difference and
adjust the tilt so that everything on the desired plane of focus. Once again
I normally have to repeat the process a few times.

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Tom Phillips - 18 Dec 2004 14:38 GMT
> : > Keep it simple: Focus on the Far, TIlt for the Near.  Do it in that sequence,
> : > and then make tiny adjustments to both focus and tilt until it's exactly right.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> When I decide I need to use front tilt  I do so in a couple of ways depending
> on my mood

Your "mood"? That certainly must help with Scheimpflug...

> and the situation. The first is to focus so that the center of the
> image is focused on my desired plane of focus.

One assumes you mean the subject plane, which is
focused on the film plane.

> I then adjust the tilt so that
> the top and the bottom of the image are in focus.

What Leonard is talking about is various types of
axis tilts different cameras have. Not all tilts
are equal...
Phil Tobias - 18 Dec 2004 19:51 GMT
>>> When I decide I need to use front tilt  I do so in a couple of ways
depending on my mood
>>Your "mood"? That certainly must help with Scheimpflug...

So you never have mood "swings" while using front "tilts"?

...pt  ;-)

-------------------------------
Business/Communications start at http://www.PhilipTobias.com.
Grow your business using my technical and marketing communications -
Effective writing, graphic design, multimedia, photos, and Web sites.
Frank Pittel - 19 Dec 2004 02:28 GMT
: >>> When I decide I need to use front tilt  I do so in a couple of ways
: depending on my mood
: >>Your "mood"? That certainly must help with Scheimpflug...

: So you never have mood "swings" while using front "tilts"?

: ...pt  ;-)

:-) LOL!!
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Tom Phillips - 19 Dec 2004 02:49 GMT
> >>> When I decide I need to use front tilt  I do so in a couple of ways
> depending on my mood
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> ...pt  ;-)

Only when using the Pittel method :)
Frank Pittel - 19 Dec 2004 02:13 GMT
: > : > Keep it simple: Focus on the Far, TIlt for the Near.  Do it in that sequence,
: > : > and then make tiny adjustments to both focus and tilt until it's exactly right.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
: > When I decide I need to use front tilt  I do so in a couple of ways depending
: > on my mood

: Your "mood"? That certainly must help with Scheimpflug...

More buzz words. I'm impressed.

: > and the situation. The first is to focus so that the center of the
: > image is focused on my desired plane of focus.

: One assumes you mean the subject plane, which is
: focused on the film plane.

I wrote the plane of focus and I meant the plane of focus.

: > I then adjust the tilt so that
: > the top and the bottom of the image are in focus.

: What Leonard is talking about is various types of
: axis tilts different cameras have. Not all tilts
: are equal...

No kidding.
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Tom Phillips - 19 Dec 2004 02:44 GMT
> : > : > Keep it simple: Focus on the Far, TIlt for the Near.  Do it in that sequence,
> : > : > and then make tiny adjustments to both focus and tilt until it's exactly right.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> More buzz words. I'm impressed.

Read a book, Frank. Leslie Stroebel's "View Camera Techniques,"
standard reference and college text, would be a good start.

> : > and the situation. The first is to focus so that the center of the
> : > image is focused on my desired plane of focus.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> I wrote the plane of focus and I meant the plane of focus.

Anyone here know how one focuses the image on the plane
of focus? Be quite a revolution in optics...

> : > I then adjust the tilt so that
> : > the top and the bottom of the image are in focus.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> No kidding.

And now frank will lecture regarding on and off axis tilts...
Frank Pittel - 19 Dec 2004 04:27 GMT
: > : > : > Keep it simple: Focus on the Far, TIlt for the Near.  Do it in that sequence,
: > : > : > and then make tiny adjustments to both focus and tilt until it's exactly right.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
: >
: > More buzz words. I'm impressed.

: Read a book, Frank. Leslie Stroebel's "View Camera Techniques,"
: standard reference and college text, would be a good start.

A good start at what?? Maybe you should read it a few times and learn how
to adjust the from tilt on a LF camera.

: > : > and the situation. The first is to focus so that the center of the
: > : > image is focused on my desired plane of focus.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
: >
: > I wrote the plane of focus and I meant the plane of focus.

: Anyone here know how one focuses the image on the plane
: of focus? Be quite a revolution in optics...

The true question should be does anyone including yourself know what you're
talking about.

: > : > I then adjust the tilt so that
: > : > the top and the bottom of the image are in focus.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
: >
: > No kidding.

: And now frank will lecture regarding on and off axis tilts...

I'm waiting for you to provide that lecture. If you think about it
for a little while I'm sure you'll find a way to include a lie about
me writing something I didn't write.
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Tom Phillips - 19 Dec 2004 05:19 GMT
snip...

Why is it frank so loves a pissing match?
Frank Pittel - 19 Dec 2004 06:18 GMT
: snip...

: Why is it frank so loves a pissing match?

??? I made an on topic post and Tom decided that rather then respond
by positively contributing to the thread in a positive and constructive
manner that he would launch into an uncalled for personal attack on me.

In the interest of moving thread forward in a positive and constructive
manner I would like to hear from Tom the process that he uses to adjust
the front tilt on his camera.

How about it Tom are you willing and capable of contributing in a positive
and constructive manner??
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Tom Phillips - 19 Dec 2004 11:58 GMT
> : snip...
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> by positively contributing to the thread in a positive and constructive
> manner that he would launch into an uncalled for personal attack on me.

I only asked how your "mood" helped you with Scheimpfulg.


> In the interest of moving thread forward in a positive and constructive
> manner I would like to hear from Tom the process that he uses to adjust
> the front tilt on his camera.

read my orig. post.
Frank Pittel - 20 Dec 2004 04:17 GMT
: > : snip...
: >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
: > by positively contributing to the thread in a positive and constructive
: > manner that he would launch into an uncalled for personal attack on me.

: I only asked how your "mood" helped you with Scheimpfulg.

You believe that dont you.
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Tom Phillips - 19 Dec 2004 03:00 GMT
> : > : > Keep it simple: Focus on the Far, TIlt for the Near.  Do it in that sequence,
> : > : > and then make tiny adjustments to both focus and tilt until it's exactly right.
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> I wrote the plane of focus and I meant the plane of focus.

The plane of focus is the subject plane, frank, i.e., the
plane of critical focus.

That "buzzing" sound is your brain, not the words...
Frank Pittel - 19 Dec 2004 04:18 GMT
: > : > : > Keep it simple: Focus on the Far, TIlt for the Near.  Do it in that sequence,
: > : > : > and then make tiny adjustments to both focus and tilt until it's exactly right.
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
: >
: > I wrote the plane of focus and I meant the plane of focus.

: The plane of focus is the subject plane, frank, i.e., the
: plane of critical focus.

It doesn't have to be.
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Tom Phillips - 19 Dec 2004 05:19 GMT
> : > : > : > Keep it simple: Focus on the Far, TIlt for the Near.  Do it in that sequence,
> : > : > : > and then make tiny adjustments to both focus and tilt until it's exactly right.
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> It doesn't have to be.

And Vietnam didn't have to be a war...
Frank Pittel - 19 Dec 2004 06:11 GMT
: > : > : > : > Keep it simple: Focus on the Far, TIlt for the Near.  Do it in that sequence,
: > : > : > : > and then make tiny adjustments to both focus and tilt until it's exactly right.
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
: >
: > It doesn't have to be.

: And Vietnam didn't have to be a war...

That's what happens when a dem runs a war. :-) Nice try at changing the
subject.
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Tom Phillips - 19 Dec 2004 11:58 GMT
snip

> : > : > : > ... The first is to focus so that the center of the
> : > : > : > image is focused on my desired plane of focus.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> That's what happens when a dem runs a war. :-) Nice try at changing the
> subject.

You changed the subject. I made a valid analogy.

The plane of focus is _always_ the subject plane and
vice versa. No difference.
uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com - 19 Dec 2004 23:08 GMT
The rain in Spain is mainly in the plane.
The precipitation in Portugal is principally in the plateau.
David Nebenzahl - 20 Dec 2004 01:04 GMT
On 12/19/2004 3:11 PM uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com spake thus:

> The rain in Spain is mainly in the plane.

You mean the dew point in airplanes flying over España is so low that there's
condensation in the cabin?

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uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com - 20 Dec 2004 05:15 GMT
Ja, mine hair!

Is the plane plain?

Is Jane on the plain or on the plane?

Oh deer!

I can't here...

When I kneed you....

Wanted, dead or olive.....

Revival meeting tonight!! See the reverend Al Kaye Lye whose touch
heals all who come before him!! Watch as he cures a ham!!
BBarlow690 - 20 Dec 2004 15:27 GMT
Wow. I'm really confused.  I said :focus on the Far, and tilt for the near.
Then somebody said that that didn't work for him, and instead he focused on the
far, and tilted for the near.  Help me out.  I'm confused.  

And, he said that it's harder with base tilt.  I only have base tilt, and
since, unless one is photographing a ceiling, the bottom of the glass has all
the far stuff, a base tilt means much less refocusing of the far stuff when one
uses tilt than if one has axis tilt.  And since one is supposedly looking at
what's happening on the ground glass, I'm further confused about how it doesn't
work.

Sometimes I live my life in confusion, I guess.  But my pictures are in
focus...
Shelley - 20 Dec 2004 15:57 GMT
I've always understood that with a base tilt camera you do as you say here -
focus on the far, tilt for the near -  and do the opposite with an axis tilt
camera. So your confusion is understandable but hopefully you don't go
around in circles.

> Wow. I'm really confused.  I said :focus on the Far, and tilt for the near.
> Then somebody said that that didn't work for him, and instead he focused on the
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Sometimes I live my life in confusion, I guess.  But my pictures are in
> focus...
Alan - 20 Dec 2004 22:50 GMT
... if he did, would they be circles of confusion?
Alan

>I've always understood that with a base tilt camera you do as you say here -
>focus on the far, tilt for the near -  and do the opposite with an axis tilt
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>> Sometimes I live my life in confusion, I guess.  But my pictures are in
>> focus...
Shelley - 21 Dec 2004 12:17 GMT
> ... if he did, would they be circles of confusion?

That was the thought.
> ... if he did, would they be circles of confusion?
> Alan
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> >> Sometimes I live my life in confusion, I guess.  But my pictures are in
> >> focus...
Frank Pittel - 21 Dec 2004 04:27 GMT
: Wow. I'm really confused.  I said :focus on the Far, and tilt for the near.
: Then somebody said that that didn't work for him, and instead he focused on the
: far, and tilted for the near.  Help me out.  I'm confused.  

I haven't found a method that works in every situation. Since the start of
this thread I took my camera out and quickly setup a situation that needed
front tilt. Out of reflex I focused so that both the near and the far were
about equally out of focus. I then adjusted the tilt until I got the near and
the far as "in focus" as possible and then I repeated the process. It took a
couple of tries to get the image in focus.

: And, he said that it's harder with base tilt.  I only have base tilt, and
: since, unless one is photographing a ceiling, the bottom of the glass has all
: the far stuff, a base tilt means much less refocusing of the far stuff when one
: uses tilt than if one has axis tilt.  And since one is supposedly looking at
: what's happening on the ground glass, I'm further confused about how it doesn't
: work.

My camera has both axis and base tilts and although I use both I normally use
the base tilt to keep the front and rear standard parallel when using rear
tilt and adjust the plane of focus with the axis tilt. The problem with the
base tilt is that it alters the distance of the front lens to the film while
adjusting the tilt. This makes it a bit harder. When I only use base tilt I
found that it helps to move the front standard in or out  prior to adjusting
the tilt. The standard is "pre-adjusted" the opposite direction of the
intended swing about the amount of movement caused by the swing. I doubt I'm
doing a good job of explaining it but it works for me.

It's all a matter of practice and experience and it does get easier with
time. When you do get the tilt adjusted right make a mental note of how you
came to doing it and what aspect of the process worked well and what
complicated matters.

: Sometimes I live my life in confusion, I guess.  But my pictures are in
: focus...

In the end what's important is that you get the results that you're after.
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Shelley - 18 Dec 2004 12:07 GMT
If you have to move the back standard away from the front
> standard to do that,  you increase the tilt.  If you have to move the
> back standard towards the front standard to do that,  you decrease the tilt.

Or stated another way, if the camera starts behaving in the opposite way
it's supposed to you've tilted too much (i.e. if focus on the near improves
when you move the front standard backward, or if focus on the far improves
when you move the front standard forward, you've tilted too much).

> > Keep it simple: Focus on the Far, TIlt for the Near.  Do it in that sequence,
> > and then make tiny adjustments to both focus and tilt until it's exactly right.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> standard to do that,  you increase the tilt.  If you have to move the
> back standard towards the front standard to do that,  you decrease the tilt.
 
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