Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
PhotoKB Home
Discussion Groups
Digital Photography
Digital PhotoDSLR CamerasZLR CamerasPoint & Shoot Cameras
Film Photography
35 mmLarge FormatMedium formatDarkroomFilm and LabsOther Equipment
Photo Technique
Nature PhotographyPeople PhotographyTechnique General
General Photo Topics
General TopicsAustralian PhotographyUK Photography
DirectoryPhoto Clubs

Photo Forum / Film Photography / Film and Labs / February 2005

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Highest speed film for airport security

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Edc4 - 23 Jan 2005 03:30 GMT
Hi, I'm sure this has been asked before and I apologize for the repeat.  I am
planning a trip to film mountain gorillas in Uganda and know I'll need fast
film to get good pictures in the forest canopy that I will find them.  I
probably will be travelling USA through London or Amsterdam to Entebbe.  I know
in the US I can get hand checks of my film, but am concerned about elsewhere.
How fast can I go with film that may be scanned 2 or 4 times at checkin on the
international flights?  Can I risk 1000 speed film or higher?  

Thanks,
Ed
Doug Greenwald - 23 Jan 2005 06:27 GMT
The airports always tell me that anything under 400 is safe to go through the carry-on scanners.  They also tell me that no film should go through the checked baggage scanners.

I make them hand check all my film even though I rarely travel with anything faster than 100.

Sometimes they balk and I have to ask twice, but American security has to hand check anything that you request.  Not sure if this will be true in airports outside of the US.

It's slower than letting it go through the scanner, but I've never had a foggy roll of film from a trip :-)

Signature

Doug Greenwald
Keeper of the Bad Attitude
fsgreen@email.uophx.edu
doug.greenwald@gmail.com

 Hi, I'm sure this has been asked before and I apologize for the repeat.  I am
 planning a trip to film mountain gorillas in Uganda and know I'll need fast
 film to get good pictures in the forest canopy that I will find them.  I
 probably will be travelling USA through London or Amsterdam to Entebbe.  I know
 in the US I can get hand checks of my film, but am concerned about elsewhere.
 How fast can I go with film that may be scanned 2 or 4 times at checkin on the
 international flights?  Can I risk 1000 speed film or higher?  

 Thanks,
 Ed
ericm1600@yahoo.com - 23 Jan 2005 16:15 GMT
> Can I risk 1000 speed film or higher?  

I've had 1600 film go through *once* without ill effect.  If I were doing
it, I would see if I could arrange to ship my film there and back, or I
would decide that this was the time to jump into digital capture.  Some of
the latest digital sensors provide stunning images in low light, especially
when used in conjunction with noise reducing software.

--
Eric
http://canid.com/
uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com - 23 Jan 2005 23:25 GMT
Believe it or not, ordinary film is hardly sensitive to X-rays, even
very fast film.
rob - 01 Jan 2002 06:00 GMT
Kodak have a good technical article about the effects of airport scanners.

http://www.kodak.com/cluster/global/en/service/tib/tib5201.shtml

I took a printed copy of it with me when I was going through a lot of airports
last summer - it came in handy.

Rob
www.rcp.ca
Mr 645 - 26 Jan 2005 03:02 GMT
They say to hand check 800 and faster, but I have traveled with 3200 speed film
and even after several scans I saw no effect at all.

Jon
Francis A. Miniter - 25 Jan 2005 18:02 GMT
>Believe it or not, ordinary film is hardly sensitive to X-rays, even
>very fast film.
>
>  

I don't believe it.  Did you read the Kodak  Technical Information
Bulletin cited by Rob?  The TIB demonstrates effects even on 200 speed
film (increased grain), though visible changes to the negative are more
apparent on films having a speed of 400 or more.

Francis A. Miniter
Keith Tapscott - 25 Jan 2005 18:55 GMT
>>Believe it or not, ordinary film is hardly sensitive to X-rays, even
>>very fast film.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Kodak have obviously done a lot of test and research on this matter and no
> doubt the other major film manufacturing companies too, well done Kodak.
uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com - 27 Jan 2005 14:33 GMT
X-ray films are quite a bit different from ordinary films. Film is
sensitive to light and near UV. X-rays have to be exceedingly powerful
to affect film.
Francis A. Miniter - 27 Jan 2005 18:15 GMT
>X-ray films are quite a bit different from ordinary films. Film is
>sensitive to light and near UV. X-rays have to be exceedingly powerful
>to affect film.
>
>  

Are you disputing the Kodak research?   (You don't say if you read the
TIB.)

If so, have you done your own research and how was it conducted?  
Haphazardly by trial and chance?  Or did you do controlled studies of
two sets of films of various speeds all containing images of the same
subject matter, one set not exposed to radiation and the other set put
through the typical airport visualization devices?

If so, then please explain where the Kodak research went wrong.

Francis A. Miniter
uraniumcommittee@yahoo.com - 27 Jan 2005 23:50 GMT
'Exceedingly powerful' is the key. The X-rays used in the past were
much weaker. I went to Europe in 1995 and my Kodachrome 64 was x-rayed
repeatedly, yet showed no loss of d-max or any other fault.

That was, I repeat, 1995. The equipment in use now must be much
stronger to affect film, because ordinary film is much less sensitive
to x-rays than x-ray film is. It's actually hard to get silver halide
to respond to x-rays at moderate levels.
xyzzy - 28 Jan 2005 03:43 GMT
> X-ray films are quite a bit different from ordinary films. Film is
> sensitive to light and near UV. X-rays have to be exceedingly powerful
> to affect film.

X-ray film works because some of the x-rays projected toward the patient and
film are absorbed in the patient and some go thru the patient and are
absorbed in the film.  If you make the film more effective at absorbing the
x-rays, you don't need as large a dose to the patient to get a useful image
on the film.  Thus, modern x-ray film is truly different from photographic
film.  While photo film will respond to x-rays (that's how x-rays were
discovered), modern x-ray films have additives in the emulsion to increase
the absorption of the x-rays.

In the late 80s, the US began switching from continuous beam x-ray machines
in airports to pulsed x-rays.  These were everywhere in the US air system by
the early 90s and expose the objects inside the machine much like an
electronic flash.  The pulse duration is very short, but enough to generate
an image on a CRT.  That image is held on the CRT for examination by the
operator.  A second look can be had by flashing the x-ray again.  The dose
from each flash is trivial - it won't even register on dosimeters designed
to monitor environmental background radiation, so it won't harm photographic
film.

Don't get the idea that this change was made to control the exposure of your
possessions as they go thru the machine.  There are very specific
regulations about how much radiation exposure is allowed for the people who
work at these machines, and meeting those regulations requires shielding the
x-ray machine.  That makes the machine heavy, VERY heavy, and that kind of
machine can't be moved easily or placed just anywhere.  When security was
increased and rows of these machines had to be used, the weight challenged
airport design and structuring.  Pulsed x-rays machines create so little
dose that shielding isn't needed, weight isn't an issue, and the problem
went away.

Bear in mind this applies to the US.  Obviously an airline security system
is only as secure as the weakest point of entry.  So when  the US began
leaning on other countries to implement security screening, they wanted the
US to provide ther hardware.  That's where all our old continuous beam x-ray
machines went - overseas.  You'll find them in use in eastern Europe, much
of Asia, Africa, South America, and island nations everywhere.  So gate
security x-ray machines in the US, western Europe, and Japan can be counted
on to do no harm to your film.  Elsewhere, be careful.

On the other hand, checked luggage is now subject to CT scan, and that
processWILL harm your film.  Because these machines are used in a separate
area not open to the public, the weight of shielding is not really a
problem, so the dose intensity doesn't have to be constrained the same way.
Add to this the idea that a CT scan makes multiple passes called slices in
its imaging process, and the total dose to the contents of a bag becomes
significant.  NEVER NEVER NEVER put your film in your checked luggage.

Lead lined film bags - do they really work?  Yes - with a qualifier.  The
lead will cut the x-ray field significantly, which makes the bag a dark
featureless blob on the gate security x-ray screen.  There is some degree of
adjustment available to the operator, but not much - that would defeat the
benefit of the pulsed system and increase worker exposure.  Even so, turning
up the intensity won't help them much.  The lead bag is more effective at
absorbing the lower energy x-rays and that causes the remaining x-rays that
get thru to be higher in energy. Higher energy makes them more effective at
passing right thru the film instead of being absorbed.  The qualifier is
that the bag helps with gate security x-rays, but not the CT scans - those
are just too intense to be affected very much by the small thickness of lead
in those bags.  I find the lead bags to be rather unnecessary for travel
within the US, but they seem to be a fairly good idea if you travel where
our old x-ray machines are being used.

Now, can we all agree that I don't have enough to do?

Bob in Las Vegas
Photobossman - 06 Feb 2005 06:02 GMT
Well, I have personally seen thousands of rolls damaged by airport x-rays
more since 911 usually 800 speed and above.

However, I have seen damage on the lower ASA film as well. Probably due to
extra scans or increased x-ray.

If the images are important carry them on with you as carry on baggage and
ask that they get hand checked.

Hope this helps you

Photobossman

>> X-ray films are quite a bit different from ordinary films. Film is
>> sensitive to light and near UV. X-rays have to be exceedingly powerful
[quoted text clipped - 84 lines]
>
> Bob in Las Vegas
xyzzy - 07 Feb 2005 03:35 GMT
If you work around a gate security x-ray machine that is routinely damaging
film, even 800 speed, have that machine checked for malfunctions.
Considering the vast amounts of film going thru gate security machines
throughout the industrial world without ruining the film, the machine(s) you
are talking about can't be performing up to manufacturer's specs.  Where
is/are the machine(s)?

Bob in Las Vegas

> Well, I have personally seen thousands of rolls damaged by airport x-rays
> more since 911 usually 800 speed and above.
[quoted text clipped - 97 lines]
> >
> > Bob in Las Vegas
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2008 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.