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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Film and Labs / October 2004

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fuji films and grain

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\ - 07 Oct 2004 17:58 GMT
I few years ago I was experimenting with enlargements from different slide
and print films. One thing I had determined was that both Kodak and Fuji's
400 speed print film (Max and Superia) made better grain free enlargements
than either of their 200 speed. (Superia 400 shot at 320 seemed to be the
best of the two at that time.) Now I look at the Fuji data sheets  and they
say that their 100 and 200 and 400 all have the same RMS value. How can that
be? Has  film changed that much in the last few years. Has anyone here tried
to make 11x14's for ISO200 print film?
Thanks
smitty
Uranium Committee - 08 Oct 2004 03:07 GMT
> I few years ago I was experimenting with enlargements from different slide
> and print films. One thing I had determined was that both Kodak and Fuji's
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Thanks
> smitty

The films are in some cases functionally the same, but of course the
price is considerably different.
filmdesigner - 08 Oct 2004 14:39 GMT
> Now I look at the Fuji data sheets  and they
> say that their 100 and 200 and 400 all have the same RMS value. How can that
> be?

RMS granularity is rounded-off logarithmic scale that allows for a lot
of slop.  For example, the 100 speed film could be RMS 3.6, and the
400 speed film could be RMS 4.5.  We'll never know.  Besides that, RMS
granularity is a poor metric to compare color negative films; it is
better suited for slide film comparison because of the way it's
measured.
\ - 14 Oct 2004 23:28 GMT
So what's the best way to compare print film grain specs with out shooting a
bazillion rolls.
Smitty
> > Now I look at the Fuji data sheets  and they
> > say that their 100 and 200 and 400 all have the same RMS value. How can that
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> better suited for slide film comparison because of the way it's
> measured.
filmdesigner - 16 Oct 2004 21:35 GMT
> So what's the best way to compare print film grain specs with out shooting a
> bazillion rolls.
> Smitty

The short answer is that you can't compare film *specs* and decide
what film to shoot.  There's a lot of personal subjectivity involved.
But I don't think you need to shoot a "bazillion" rolls, either.  More
like a half dozen.

The most meaningful grain specification is Kodak's Print Grain Index
(PGI) because it is tied to what the average observer actually sees in
a print instead of what is in the negative.  More importantly, PGI
value differences can be related to "just noticeable differences" in
grain.  The downside is that you can only do this for Kodak film.
(Attempts to convert RMS granularity to PGI or vice versa are a waste
of time because they measure two different things.)

So my first suggestion would be to correlate your eyes with those of
the "average observer" by shooting similar scenes on a roll each of
400UC and 100UC  that have about the same expiration date and have
them processed at the same time in the same lab.  Kodak says these two
films differ by nine PGI or about two times a just noticeable
difference.   Now you have some sense of that grain difference,
keeping in mind that PGI (or RMS, for that matter) is expressed in
terms of a gray color – not necessarily any particular pure color.
Maybe one shot of a gray card would be useful.

If you want to compare across manfacturers, then you would add those
corresponding films, again keeping expiration dates similar.  Now
however, the choice of processing becomes more difficult.  You could
choose to put all the films through your favorite lab together, but
the argument against this is that the lab might favor the products of
a particular film manufacturer.  The alternative is to find a lab for
each film manufacturer.  This is your call.

Finally, I will tell you that experiments to find the best grain are a
largely a waste of time.  Most photographers are aware that higher
speed usually means higher grain.  What is less well understood is
that grain is also intimately tied to sharpness, color saturation,
color hue errors, and several other design considerations.  All these
things can be traded off against one another, and most do not have
published metrics associated with them.  The top tier film
manufacturers have about the same technical capability, but they may
choose to trade these various film features in different ways.  It is
not simply a matter of who has the best grain at any given speed, but
rather it's who has the best *combination* of features that *you*
prefer.  So in the end, you have to shoot some rolls of the things you
like to photograph.  I would just advise you to minimize the
extraneous variables, e.g., expiration date, scene choice, processing,
as much as you can.
Bill Tuthill - 16 Oct 2004 23:35 GMT
> The most meaningful grain specification is Kodak's Print Grain Index
> (PGI) because it is tied to what the average observer actually sees in
> a print instead of what is in the negative.

I disagree.  PGI is measured only with gray, and I don't have much gray
in my pictures.  Most everything is color.  Blue especially is the color
of most concern for me, because of continuous-tone clear skies.

I do (kind of) agree that PGI is a better measurement than RMS.

Film people should really do studies like Phil Askey does with noise
on his dpreview.com site.  Perhaps some types of grain (or dye clouds)
are "worse" than others, but at least he is objective about it.

> So my first suggestion would be to correlate your eyes with those of
> the "average observer" by shooting similar scenes on a roll each of
> 400UC and 100UC  that have about the same expiration date and have
> them processed at the same time in the same lab.  Kodak says these two
> films differ by nine PGI or about two times a just noticeable difference.

However in my tests (2400 dpi scans of Macbeth charts) 100UC looked
grainer than 400UC.  Maybe my scanner has focus problems...
filmdesigner - 17 Oct 2004 04:33 GMT
> I disagree.  PGI is measured only with gray, and I don't have much gray
> in my pictures.  Most everything is color.  Blue especially is the color
> of most concern for me, because of continuous-tone clear skies.

I believe I discussed this.  Gray is a way of averaging across colors.
If grain measurements were published for every color, the resulting
matrix would become completely unintelligible.  Blue grain is
important to you, but it's probably totally unimportant to a portrait
photographer.  That's why I suggested that actually shooting some
different films with scenes of interest is really the only way to
attack this issue. *No one* claims that published values apply to
every single color individually.

> However in my tests (2400 dpi scans of Macbeth charts) 100UC looked
> grainer than 400UC.  Maybe my scanner has focus problems...

Yes, I agree that something is wrong with the way you did the
experiment.  100UC is less grainy than 400UC.
 
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