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Photo Forum / Film Photography / Film and Labs / October 2004Kodachrome 200 - Horrible Grain and All Red in Long Exposures ! ?
I just received my first Kodachrome K200 slides from Kodak in Switzerland. I looked at the sildes on a small portable slide-in viewer against the light, and the grain is huge. I dont remember seeing grain even from 400 ASA fuji slide films. Is that normal ? i think it had expired a couple of months ago but i dont think that this could affectthe grain. Another thing i noticed is in long exposures, 6,8,10 seconds if i remember right, appart from the grain, the whole image looks as if it had a red filter on. It has a very heavy red cast. Is that a reciprocity failure ? > I just received my first Kodachrome K200 slides from Kodak in Switzerland. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > filter on. It has a very heavy red cast. > Is that a reciprocity failure ? I never paid attention to long exposures, but it is normal that you have grain. K200 is very grainy... in fact, it is the film I use if I want grainy dias, or if I want to see details in dark areas of my pictures .. The sky is usually an area where you see the grain. If you take pictures of buildings, K200 is a good film, and you do not see the grain that much.. "Aymeric Peyret" <peyret.aymeric@nospam.ec-lille.fr> wrote in message news:eC47d.1891 > I never paid attention to long exposures, but it is normal that you have > grain. K200 is very grainy... I have only seen in it with a small slide-in viewer. I had never been able to see the grain with such a viewer. I can't imagine what will be like when i project it on the wall... > I just received my first Kodachrome K200 slides from Kodak in Switzerland. > > I looked at the sildes on a small portable slide-in viewer against the > light, and the grain is huge. I dont remember seeing grain even from 400 ASA > fuji slide films. The grain is quite fine in my experience. > Is that normal ? i think it had expired a couple of months ago but i dont > think that this could affectthe grain. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > filter on. It has a very heavy red cast. > Is that a reciprocity failure ? >> I just received my first Kodachrome K200 slides from Kodak in >> Switzerland. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > The grain is quite fine in my experience. But much coarser than competing Ektachrome and Fuji products of current manufacture. Those have gotten a lot finer-grained in the past 10 years or so. > >> I just received my first Kodachrome K200 slides from Kodak in > >> Switzerland. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > manufacture. Those have gotten a lot finer-grained in the past 10 years or > so. Maybe it's the type of subject matter or quality of lenses. >> >> I just received my first Kodachrome K200 slides from Kodak in >> >> Switzerland. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Maybe it's the type of subject matter or quality of lenses. I don't see how the camera lens could affect film grain. At the time of its introduction (around 1989?) Kodachrome 200 was considerably finer grained than any other 200 ISO slide film. But that changed rather quickly. Also, it seems to me that scanning brings out the grain in Kodachrome. Don't ask me why or how. I just know what I see on the PC monitor doesn't match what I see projected or on the lightbox. Sorry due to spam I shall not provide a valid e-mail address. Please reply to the group. > >> >> I just received my first Kodachrome K200 slides from Kodak in > >> >> Switzerland. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > I don't see how the camera lens could affect film grain. Sharper, contrasier lenses bring out the best in films. >> I don't see how the camera lens could affect film grain. > Sharper, contrasier lenses bring out the best in films. But are you claiming the lens affects film grain? It doesn't. > I don't see how the camera lens could affect film grain. I believe it can, although you seldom read that in a photography book. Some lenses have better "bokeh" (background blur) than others. Bokeh is complicated, because it involves not only the totally-blurred rendition, but also the rendition as objects approach the focal plane, near and far. Some lenses render objects more sharply near the DOF slice. When objects are more sharply rendered, with higher contrast, grain is diminished. >> I don't see how the camera lens could affect film grain. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Some lenses render objects more sharply near the DOF slice. When objects > are more sharply rendered, with higher contrast, grain is diminished. No; your attention may be drawn away from it, but I can't see how the grain could be reduced at all. Grain isn't in the image falling on the film. It's in the film. > >> I don't see how the camera lens could affect film grain. > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > could be reduced at all. Grain isn't in the image falling on the film. > It's in the film. Grain is not a simple matter. Optics can affect it to a small degree. >> >> I don't see how the camera lens could affect film grain. >> > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Grain is not a simple matter. Optics can affect it to a small degree. How? >>> >> I don't see how the camera lens could affect film grain. >>> > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >How? One way is through the factor of viewing light for trasparencies. If, using a viewer, the light is more highly collimated then the grain and other defects in the image will be more evident. This is probably one reason why some films scan less well than others One fellow I knew took some shots of a demaonstration on an E-6 film and showed the slides in a handheld viewer. They looked harsh, grainy and a bit scratchy. He was devastated by the negative reactions. Later, he had prints made that showed less grain ad none of the previously noticeable defects. When we projected them, they looked fine. OK, just that one comes to mind. In printing BW, the results will show more apparent graininess in a true condenser enlargement than with one made in a diffusion type. For even more grain revelation, a pont source is just the ticket. Hate to back up the radioactive namelss one in this, but there it is. Could he be right about the taking system being a factor? Nah. Aside from some arcane uses, I doubt anyone would see it happening as he describes. Robert Vervoordt, MFA >>>> >> I don't see how the camera lens could affect film grain. >>>> > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > other defects in the image will be more evident. This is probably one > reason why some films scan less well than others Yes; I'm aware of that and similar effects in enlargers (condenser vs. diffusion, etc.). I thought he was talking about camera lenses affecting the film grain. >>>>> >> I don't see how the camera lens could affect film grain. >>>>> > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >diffusion, etc.). I thought he was talking about camera lenses affecting >the film grain. Yes, I agree, it sure sounded like that to me. That's why I mentioned the possibility of some "arcane" artifact found in a highly specialised field. Hey, Astrophotography! I never heard of anything, but you might have. I'm not expecting anything there, though. Again, it would have to be pretty "arcane" and no9t applicable to general photography. Certainly 35 mm with a Leica and using Acutol would not hold any such possibilities. Regards, Robert Vervoordt, MFA > On Tue, 5 Oct 2004 22:37:58 -0400, "Michael A. Covington" The color correction of lenses has a subtle effect on grain, according to Geoffrey Crawley. > <look@ai.uga.edu.for.address> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > Robert Vervoordt, MFA > Yes; I'm aware of that and similar effects in enlargers (condenser vs. > diffusion, etc.). I thought he was talking about camera lenses affecting > the film grain. I was talking about camera lenses. You're welcome to borrow my Sigma 28-80/3.5-5.6 Macro, my Minolta 24-50/4 with extention tube, and an SLR with DOF preview. Maybe wait for wildflower season. Take the exact same pictures with these two lenses at the same apertures and focal lengths. Develop and print. You'll see that the 24-50/4 has thicker DOF, thus reducing grain in areas close to DOF. The Minolta 24-50/4 was the highest rated consumer zoom on http://photozone.de/2Equipment/easytxt.htm until superceded by the Zeiss 24-85/3.5-4.5 recently. The Sigma sux, to be succinct. > Take the exact same pictures with these two lenses > at the same apertures and focal lengths. Develop and print. > You'll see that the 24-50/4 has thicker DOF, thus reducing grain > in areas close to DOF. If you simply mean that grain is less visible when the picture lacks blank areas or defocused areas, I agree. > Another thing i noticed is in long exposures, 6,8,10 seconds if i remember > right, appart from the grain, the whole image looks as if it had a red > filter on. It has a very heavy red cast. > Is that a reciprocity failure ? Yes. The reciprocity failure of K200 is awful, even in a 5-second exposure. If you want to make long exposures, and if you like fine grain, use E100G or E200. Presently, E100G has the best reciprocity characteristics of any film on the market. I've done plenty of 10- and 20-minute exposures with it.  SignatureClear skies, Michael A. Covington Author, Astrophotography for the Amateur www.covingtoninnovations.com/astromenu.html >I just received my first Kodachrome K200 slides from Kodak in Switzerland. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Is that normal ? i think it had expired a couple of months ago but i dont >think that this could affectthe grain. Yes. K-chrome 200, is a very grainy film for this speed. However, it's a very nice and tight, uniform grained and sharp film. That's why I like the stuff. I call it the Tri-X of color slide films. KK |
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