Photo Forum / Digital Photography / Digital Photo / May 2008
Do you still sharpen?
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Bruce. - 23 May 2008 04:11 GMT I know sharpening had a big place in photography due to low resolution digital cameras. The pictures were just too soft without a touch of sharpening. Even so the recommendation was to sharpen only just prior to printing.
Well, a couple of things have happened. We're doing less and less printing due to costs, and the convenience of just viewing the files on our computer monitor. Emailing, posting on Flickr, etc. At least with me, actually printing is getting rarer and rarer. And anything over 1024x768 (my monitor setting) has to be resized downward to be viewed.
The other thing that happened is the MPixel race is now up to huge numbers, 8MP, 10MP, etc. The detail level is now so much higher than it used to be, so less sharpening would seem to be needed.
With my 8MP camera, even slight sharpening makes it look over-sharpened on my monitor. About all even slight sharpening does is amplify sensor noise.
So is it time to retire sharpening?
Bruce.
Tesseract - 23 May 2008 04:52 GMT I find that sharpening is required out of digital cameras when you are not using a really sharp lens. Yes more megapixels help, but remeber that the sensor isn't film, as much as they want you to believe it is.
For example: A B&W Example with Colour showing different Sharpening in Post Processing http://www.hyperphotocube.com/2008/05/13/bw-photography-i.html I have blogged about this in the past and most people say the sharpening is good (and needed).
Tesseract - 23 May 2008 04:53 GMT Yes I think it is still required. For Example I did a B&W vs. Colour Shot with Sharpening. http://www.hyperphotocube.com/2008/05/13/bw-photography-i.html ...most people say the sharpening is good (and needed).
Malcolm Smith - 23 May 2008 04:57 GMT No, sharpening is very important even if you don't print you need to sharpen for other output devices such as other monitors on the web. It is a very complex subject and I recommend the late Bruce Frasers book "Real World Sharpening for CS2" (I think this is the correct title) - anyway look on Amazon for books by Bruce Fraser. I found the information in this book to be excellent. He recommends a three step sharpening workflow 1 To correct for source blur (ie anti aliass filter in cameras) etc. 2 creative sharpening for the image icontent tself (ie artistic sharpening) 3 output sharpening to counteract the output device blur (ink spread and dithering on ink jet printers) Bruces book shows why the oversharpening crunchieness on the monotor ocurrs and how to control.
regards Malcolm
Bob Williams - 23 May 2008 05:08 GMT > I know sharpening had a big place in photography due to low resolution > digital cameras. The pictures were just too soft without a touch of [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Bruce. Many P/S compacts apply a lot of sharpening to their images by default. To a Newbie, the highly sharpened image looks "better". Ergo, more sales. If you add additional sharpening to an already sharpened image, you get some strange artifacts or as you say, "oversharpening". Some (most?) of the better P/S cameras let the user set the amount of sharpening. If you don't mind (or enjoy) editing images, I'd recommend using a lower degree of in-camera sharpening. If you are really into editing and your camera has the feature, use RAW. Bob Williams
Chris Malcolm - 23 May 2008 11:39 GMT > I know sharpening had a big place in photography due to low resolution > digital cameras. The pictures were just too soft without a touch of > sharpening. Even so the recommendation was to sharpen only just prior to > printing.
> Well, a couple of things have happened. We're doing less and less printing > due to costs, and the convenience of just viewing the files on our computer > monitor. Emailing, posting on Flickr, etc. At least with me, actually > printing is getting rarer and rarer. And anything over 1024x768 (my monitor > setting) has to be resized downward to be viewed.
> The other thing that happened is the MPixel race is now up to huge numbers, > 8MP, 10MP, etc. The detail level is now so much higher than it used to be, > so less sharpening would seem to be needed.
> With my 8MP camera, even slight sharpening makes it look over-sharpened on > my monitor. About all even slight sharpening does is amplify sensor noise.
> So is it time to retire sharpening? I guess you're too young to have known about film era sharpening. In the development of both negatives and prints (or slides) the chemical diffusion rates, exhaustion rates, and agitation timings were set to perform edge sharpening by chemical means. So if you want your digital images to look like good film era prints you will need to apply sharpening, and it needs to be applied at the specific resolution chosen for printing or screen viewing.
So with modern digital images you need more kinds of sharpening, because you have more choices. You need to sharpen at the A5 print size for the prints you're sending your mother-in-law. You also need to sharpen seperately at each of the screen sizes you've chosen as the display options for your screen viewed images.
That's if you want the same kind of sharpening as was applied by the standard film era chemical development methods.
If you're fussy you may want to explore the very much more sophisticated sharpening methods available for digital images.
If you have principled objections to sharpening of any kind then I'm afraid you'll have to wait for pharmacology to some up with some way of turning off the sharpening done by your retina and brain. The reason for applying sharpening to camera images is the same as the reason for applying white balance colour correction: our eyes and brain process images of things differently from looking at the things themselves, so trying to make images of things look like the real things as seen by the naked (but extremely sophisiticated and resourceful) eye (and brain) will always require quite a bit of tinkering.
 Signature Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
Allen - 23 May 2008 13:46 GMT <snip>
> I guess you're too young to have known about film era sharpening. In > the development of both negatives and prints (or slides) the chemical [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > sharpening, and it needs to be applied at the specific resolution > chosen for printing or screen viewing. <snip>
Rodinol! (perhaps Rodinal). You've brought back fond memories of my b/w processing days. Rodinol gave me amazingly sharp 35mm images. I wonder if it is still being manufactured--a moot point as my daughter now has my last film camera. Alen
Roy G - 23 May 2008 20:35 GMT > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > last film camera. > Alen Acutol - Rodinal, they were never very good for apparent sharpness.
What you really needed was tri-X developed in Beutler, the "Edge Effect" was outstanding. I am not saying it was sharp, but it certainly looked sharp, with that little narrow band of opposing tone at the edges where light met dark.
It was not for sissies, it had to be made up from raw materials.
Roy G
Allen - 23 May 2008 20:59 GMT >> <snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Roy G I used Rodinal with PanX and got amazingly sharp results. Not extra fine grain, but sharp. Allen
ASAAR - 28 May 2008 05:09 GMT > I used Rodinal with PanX and got amazingly sharp results. Not extra fine > grain, but sharp. I primarily used Agfa's 'one shot' Rodinal developer and to a lesser degree, Acufine. I never really thought about Rodinal as far as sharpening is concerned, but based on how it worked (very dilute solution used with minimal agitation and a relatively long processing time) it would seem to be good for edge sharpening. The highly exposed areas of the film would deplete the film's 'local' developer, but the relatively unexposed areas ('shadows') would not only continue developing, but could also supply a bit more of the unused developer to the nearby more highly exposed parts of the film, allowing the edges to develop a bit more than the 'developer depleted' portions of the more highly exposed parts. B&H still sells it, but due to shipping restrictions, you can only buy it in the store.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1395-REG/Agfa_9720_Rodinal_Developer.html
> I wonder if it is still being manufactured--a moot point as my > daughter now has my last film camera. The last time I used my remaining Nikon SLR was about 10 years ago, but if I ever shoot film again it might be with an old Nikon TeleTouch Deluxe still stashed in my parent's home. If it still works, that is.
Allen - 28 May 2008 15:03 GMT >> I used Rodinal with PanX and got amazingly sharp results. Not extra fine >> grain, but sharp. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > TeleTouch Deluxe still stashed in my parent's home. If it still > works, that is. Back when I was doing BW Rodinal was sold in glass bottles in a smaller size that the one B&W lists. I have an 8x10 hanging on a wall that I shot on PanX with my first SLR--A Miranda F. It could easily have been enlarged to at least 16x20 without showing much grain or loss of edge sharpness, if I had darkroom equipment that would handle larger sizes. It is a picture of my wife, my then two-year-old daughter, and our cat. I titled it "Three Textures" for a camera club contest, which it won. The title came from the fact that it showed the the very different textures of the three subjects' hair extremely well--a product of good edge sharpness. The lenses on those old Mirandas were outstanding performers and put on bodies with just about every feature available on much more expensive SLRs--removable prism that could be replaced with at least two options of other viewers, two places to attach cable releases, etc; the tradeoff was that they weren't very durable. It was all I could afford at the time. When it died I replaced it with a Canon FTBn. Allen
ASAAR - 28 May 2008 16:27 GMT > Back when I was doing BW Rodinal was sold in glass bottles in a smaller > size that the one B&W lists. Same here, and those small bottles lasted a loooong time. It may have come in brown bottles (IIRC) but they should have been green, since you used only what was needed - no wastage. :)
Allen - 28 May 2008 20:54 GMT >> Back when I was doing BW Rodinal was sold in glass bottles in a smaller >> size that the one B&W lists. > > Same here, and those small bottles lasted a loooong time. It may > have come in brown bottles (IIRC) but they should have been green, > since you used only what was needed - no wastage. :) Brown. We've both been there, done that, I haven't done any BW in years because of lack of darkroom facilities and I've never had a printer that did really good BW; that's going to be an important consideration the next time I buy one, which will probably be the day after I win the lottery. I passed my last film camera, a Canon EOS, to my daughter, who is an artist (with a degree and work to back that up), and she occasionally does BW and relies on Wolf Camera (a branch of Ritz) for processing. Allen
BrJohan - 29 May 2008 08:12 GMT > > I used Rodinal with PanX and got amazingly sharp results. Not extra fine > > grain, but sharp. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > TeleTouch Deluxe still stashed in my parent's home. If it still > works, that is. Even if I'm a DSLR photographer these days, I still occasionally shots a roll of Ilford Pan F and develops it in Neofin Blau (Blue) just to keep in mind how good - and "sharp" - results you get using the old techonlogy. I'm not really fond of using the term "sharp". I prefer using resolution and acutance as the qualities in respect.
Just my "nostalgia"..
/BJ
Bruce. - 23 May 2008 15:22 GMT > I guess you're too young to have known about film era sharpening. In > the development of both negatives and prints (or slides) the chemical [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > resourceful) eye (and brain) will always require quite a bit of > tinkering. Thank you for the the feedback and information. I did do some B&W printing in my youth (and color slide developing) but never got advanced enough to know what sharpening was.
I have no objection to sharpening, so long as the result seems pleasing to my brain, which I admit is totally subjective.
This subject came up for me because I just bought Adobe PhotoShop Elements 6 and have been trying to use it's Smart Autofix feature. The result is most often an oversharp picture, over emphasising small detail and image noise. As another posted mentioned, it may be that my Canon A-720 already sharpens the picture and so the images can't stand even more sharpening. I've tried to do some manual sharpening, but I almost universally dislike the result unless I do so little as to make the sharpening pointless.
I appreciate your point about how the brain processes images. Just as obvious as the wrong color balance in prints can be to us, I'll try to compare what I see in prints to the original with sharpening in mind.
Thanks to everyone for the great opinions and feedback.
Bruce.
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios - 23 May 2008 16:00 GMT >> I know sharpening had a big place in photography due to low resolution >> digital cameras. The pictures were just too soft without a touch of [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > resourceful) eye (and brain) will always require quite a bit of > tinkering. Once upon a time I used Acutol, a B&W developer that was supposed to enhance the acutance (or sharpening) of B&W negatives. I quite liked the results. I was using usually Rodinal Special, an Agfa "fine grained" developer. These days, I sharpen moderately, including my pencils
:-)))
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Rita Berkowitz - 23 May 2008 12:51 GMT > So is it time to retire sharpening? Yes. When using decent hardware such as the Nikon D3 and Nikkors you find that images are almost too sharp. A lot of people aren't used to seeing sharp images and have a hard time comprehending this wonderful result when they see it.
Rita
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George Kerby - 23 May 2008 14:56 GMT On 5/23/08 6:51 AM, in article xrWdnWosSa9MMqvVnZ2dnUVZ_tTinZ2d@supernews.com, "Rita Berkowitz" <ritaberk2008@aol.com> wrote:
>> So is it time to retire sharpening? > > Yes. When using decent hardware such as the Nikon D3 and Nikkors you find > that images are almost too sharp. A lot of people aren't used to seeing > sharp images and have a hard time comprehending this wonderful result when > they see it. Except, of course, where Rita super-glued that #2 Softar on 'her' D3 lens. It has to be the only reason that those images look like they were shot in a fog.
David J Taylor - 23 May 2008 14:21 GMT []
> So is it time to retire sharpening? > > Bruce. Briefly - it depends what effect you are trying to create, and what the final display device is.
Cheers, David
C J Campbell - 23 May 2008 18:22 GMT > I know sharpening had a big place in photography due to low resolution > digital cameras. The pictures were just too soft without a touch of > sharpening. Even so the recommendation was to sharpen only just prior to > printing. That should have been your first clue. If we were sharpening because of the image quality coming from the camera, it would be the first step in the process, not the last.
> Well, a couple of things have happened. We're doing less and less printing > due to costs, and the convenience of just viewing the files on our computer > monitor. Emailing, posting on Flickr, etc. At least with me, actually > printing is getting rarer and rarer. And anything over 1024x768 (my monitor > setting) has to be resized downward to be viewed. Lower resolution for web actually seems to require more sharpening than a picture being prepared for high resolution printing. I would not post anything more than 800 pixels on a side on the web and I use a resolution 72 dpi.
> The other thing that happened is the MPixel race is now up to huge numbers, > 8MP, 10MP, etc. The detail level is now so much higher than it used to be, > so less sharpening would seem to be needed. Higher resolution does not necessarily mean sharper images. You might have a little more detail, but detail is not the same thing as sharp.
> With my 8MP camera, even slight sharpening makes it look over-sharpened on > my monitor. About all even slight sharpening does is amplify sensor noise. > > So is it time to retire sharpening? > > Bruce. No. When you edit a picture, you change and lose information. The effect is to make the image appear softer. You will still need to sharpen a picture after editing, no matter how sharp the original was.
Sharpening in a computer is not the same as using a sharp lens or getting a sharp picture in-camera. It does not look the same, either. What sharpening really does is create a series of blurred layers and then uses these blurs to cancel out perceived unsharpness. You can use Gaussian Blur to duplicate anything Unsharp Mask does. That is why it is called Unsharp Mask, eh? It uses Gaussian blur masks to mask out anything that is not sharp. But the effect is that sharpening will always lose some detail in the process.
If you want a truly sharp image, you have to do as little processing as possible, including sharpening.
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me@mine.net - 23 May 2008 18:36 GMT >Lower resolution for web actually seems to require more sharpening than >a picture being prepared for high resolution printing. I would not post >anything more than 800 pixels on a side on the web and I use a >resolution 72 dpi. dpi is meaningless on the web. All that matters is absolute pixels.
>No. When you edit a picture, you change and lose information. The >effect is to make the image appear softer. You will still need to >sharpen a picture after editing, no matter how sharp the original was. An absolute statement which isn't always correct. How does cropping negatively affect sharpness? There are also down sampling algorithms which actually enhance sharpness. It is also possible to make changes which don't lose information.
>Sharpening in a computer is not the same as using a sharp lens or >getting a sharp picture in-camera. It does not look the same, either. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >anything that is not sharp. But the effect is that sharpening will >always lose some detail in the process. Another technique is to change the color space and just sharpen the Y channel as well.
Stewy - 28 May 2008 03:12 GMT > I know sharpening had a big place in photography due to low resolution > digital cameras. The pictures were just too soft without a touch of [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > So is it time to retire sharpening? My knives still need it from time to time though...
Stewy - 28 May 2008 03:24 GMT > I know sharpening had a big place in photography due to low resolution > digital cameras. The pictures were just too soft without a touch of [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > So is it time to retire sharpening? Sorry about my previous flippant comment...
I often use an R72 infrared filter for those photo excursions on still and bright sunny days when 'normal' photography has problems with harsh shadows. Infrared often produces slightly 'soft' images with an increase in noise due to the higher ISO. I usually tweek the sharpening sometimes even though I risk adding even more noise to make leaf outlines and the dark tree trunks less soft.
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