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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / Digital Photo / May 2008

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Newbie question about macro with DSLR

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Eric Smith - 28 Apr 2008 00:54 GMT
I'm considering buying a Canon Digital Rebel XSi for a project involving
macro photography, and I'm looking for advice regarding macro lenses,
reverse mounts, etc.

Basically I'm trying to photograph a flat subject such that an area
about 1 mm on a side will be full-frame.  It would be better yet if
I could do that for an area 0.5 mm on a side.

The camera has an APS-C size sensor (22.2 x 14.8 mm).

I have a precision X-Y stage with stepper motors and microstepping
control, so I can position the subject in increments of less than
0.1 mm.  I plan to take many photos with a small shift, and stitch them
together, probably using Hugin.  Because I expect there to be a lot of
overlap between the images, I think I can tolerate some amount of
vignetting, spherical abberation, etc.

Is this feasible with some macro lens, combination of lenses, reversing
ring, extension tube, etc?

I'm hoping to avoid the need to buy a microscope and adapter, due to
the cost, though that's obviously an option.  I'm not sure how to tell
whether a particular microscope would be suitable without trying it;
for instance, I've looked at a 7x-90x microscope, but apparently 10x
or 20x of that magnification is due to the magnification of the
eyepiece, which I wouldn't have with the camera adapter.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!
Eric
Joseph Meehan - 28 Apr 2008 01:04 GMT
I don't think you are going to get what you want with a macro lens.
This calls for a micro lens or being microscope adapter.   Both of those are
outside my experience and need so I don't have much personal experience to
base any additional help.  Sorry.

> I'm considering buying a Canon Digital Rebel XSi for a project involving
> macro photography, and I'm looking for advice regarding macro lenses,
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> Thanks!
> Eric

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Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit

Eric Smith - 28 Apr 2008 22:41 GMT
>    I don't think you are going to get what you want with a macro
> lens. This calls for a micro lens

This is the first I've heard of a "micro lens", so I did a Google search.
I did turn up one page saying that a micro lens was necessary for 10x or
higher magnification, but all the product pages I found were for Nikon
Micro-Nikkor lenses, and the specifications for those seemed comparable
to other vendors' macro lenses.

After a bit more searching, I found references to the discontinued
Raynox CM-3500 macro/closeup lens set, which includes 6x, 12x, and 24x
lenses:
       http://www.raynox.co.jp/english/egindex.htm

Apparently these are intended for use with telephoto lenses.  If I can
find a set, perhaps this might do what I want?  I'm not sure.

Thanks!
Eric
Jürgen Exner - 28 Apr 2008 23:25 GMT
>This is the first I've heard of a "micro lens", so I did a Google search.
>I did turn up one page saying that a micro lens was necessary for 10x or
>higher magnification, but all the product pages I found were for Nikon
>Micro-Nikkor lenses, and the specifications for those seemed comparable
>to other vendors' macro lenses.

Yeah, for whatever reason Nikon calls "Micro" what everyone else calls
"Macro".

>After a bit more searching, I found references to the discontinued
>Raynox CM-3500 macro/closeup lens set, which includes 6x, 12x, and 24x
>lenses:
>        http://www.raynox.co.jp/english/egindex.htm

That page opens a whole slew of product, not sure which on in particular
you are referring to. Anyway, I suppose those are those add-on lenses,
that you screw into the the filter threads.

>Apparently these are intended for use with telephoto lenses.  

The screw-on type can be used with any lens, not only telephoto.

>If I can
>find a set, perhaps this might do what I want?  I'm not sure.

They are available from many different manufacturers for little money.
However I doubt that you will find any that will give you any decent
picture quality at the magnification you are looking for.

jue
Joseph Meehan - 29 Apr 2008 12:40 GMT
...

> Yeah, for whatever reason Nikon calls "Micro" what everyone else calls
> "Macro".

   Yea.  Frankly everyone else is wrong, :-0  Well Nikon is wrong in their
use from time to time as well.   I don't think it is going to get
straightened out, but it is good to keep in mind that there are two terms
and that we should all expect them to be used properly and improperly so we
don't assume that they will be used in the manner we expect.

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Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit

Paul Furman - 04 May 2008 17:33 GMT
> ...
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> improperly so we don't assume that they will be used in the manner we
> expect.

Nikon calls them micro because they already used macro for an obscure
old line of extreme closeup lenses:
http://www.naturfotograf.com/lens_spec.html
Randy Berbaum - 28 Apr 2008 04:18 GMT
> I'm considering buying a Canon Digital Rebel XSi for a project involving
> macro photography, and I'm looking for advice regarding macro lenses,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> about 1 mm on a side will be full-frame.  It would be better yet if
> I could do that for an area 0.5 mm on a side.

I don't think you will be happy with macro in this instance. Macro is good
for a "magnification" of 1x to 5x and my be able to go to 10x with some
aberation around the edges. At this mag factor the DOF is so tight that the
difference between the distance from the center of the lens to the subject
and the distance from the lens to the side of the subject would be more than
the DOF and so either the center of the image would be in focus or the edge,
not both.

So your need of making .5 to 1 mm full frame would be almost impossible and
so badly formed that you may get only a few clear pixels in the center of
the image. For the level of magnification you are looking for you would be
better off going with a microscope and adapter. Even then you may have
problems with flat focus. You may have to center the subject in the image
and crop the out of focus edges before attempting the stitching.

Good luck

Randy
Paul Furman - 28 Apr 2008 05:05 GMT
>> I'm considering buying a Canon Digital Rebel XSi for a project involving
>> macro photography, and I'm looking for advice regarding macro lenses,
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> problems with flat focus. You may have to center the subject in the image
> and crop the out of focus edges before attempting the stitching.

This sounds right. A typical macro lens gets to 1:1 and 1mm is 1/18 of
that size (for the height).

On the other hand, how much detail do you need? If cropping, it is pixel
counts that'll tell you what magnification you need. The height (short
side) of a 10MP DSLR is about 2,500 pixels. For a really sharp print,
figure 300 pixels per inch. That will show usable detail for people with
perfect vision but you can easily double that size & still look fine
(150ppi).
Eric Smith - 28 Apr 2008 22:51 GMT
> On the other hand, how much detail do you need?

I'd like to resolve details with a minimum feature size of 3 microns.
That's how I came up with the requirement to magnify 1 mm of the subject
to full-frame of a 10MP camera.

I would eventually like to produce very large prints, e.g. a 60 inch
wide print of a 10 mm wide subject, using something like an HP Designjet
8000 or 9000 series printer, but my initial objective is just to produce
files for viewing on a computer.  Those would be about 10,000 pixels on a
side (300MB uncompressed at 24 bits per pixel).

Thanks,
Eric
Jürgen Exner - 28 Apr 2008 23:26 GMT
>> On the other hand, how much detail do you need?
>
>I'd like to resolve details with a minimum feature size of 3 microns.

Defininately use a microscope with a camera adapter.

jue
user@domain.invalid - 28 Apr 2008 23:46 GMT
>>> On the other hand, how much detail do you need?
>> I'd like to resolve details with a minimum feature size of 3 microns.
>
> Defininately use a microscope with a camera adapter.
>
> jue

He does NOT need a microscope ... only a microscope objective
and some way to focus it.

As to focusing a microscope objective: the manufacturer specifies the
back focus ... that is, the distance from the mounting screw to were the
focal plane of the camera is. You just make sure that that distance is
about right, like within 5 mm. Then you focus by moving the subject, or
by small movement of the objective.

Doug McDonald
Floyd L. Davidson - 29 Apr 2008 05:21 GMT
>>>> On the other hand, how much detail do you need?
>>> I'd like to resolve details with a minimum feature size of 3 microns.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>He does NOT need a microscope ... only a microscope objective
>and some way to focus it.

He needs a microscope.  In addition to the objective and
focusing mechanism, he needs a "projection" (aka
"relay") lense appropriate for the sensor size.

One additional feature that would be nice is episcopic
illumination.

Signature

Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)              floyd@apaflo.com

tony cooper - 29 Apr 2008 06:24 GMT
>>>>> On the other hand, how much detail do you need?
>>>> I'd like to resolve details with a minimum feature size of 3 microns.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>focusing mechanism , he needs a "projection" (aka
>"relay") lense appropriate for the sensor size.

I'm still trying to figure out what you mean by a "relay lens".
Projection is done with a prism and not with a lens.  A beam splitter
projects the optical view by bending it with the prism.  The type of
prism, and the distance between the prism and the sensor, determines
what the sensor records.

>One additional feature that would be nice is episcopic
>illumination.

OK, I figured this out.  You are evidently talking about light
projected from above the field as opposed to light projected from
below the field.  I have no idea why you want to call it "episcopic",
though.  "From above" works fine.

Some lab microscopes have illuminated stages (light from below) so the
light illuminates the material on the slide.  Some have light
projected down to the stage from either a coaxial system or fiber
optic ring light.  Some use both.

If his object - the thing he's photographing - is opaque, he *must*
have light from above.  Not "nice", but essential.

Signature

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

user@domain.invalid - 28 Apr 2008 14:50 GMT
>> I'm considering buying a Canon Digital Rebel XSi for a project involving
>> macro photography, and I'm looking for advice regarding macro lenses,
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> better off going with a microscope and adapter. Even then you may have
> problems with flat focus.

The OP needs a microscope objective. With a good one flat field is
no problem. He needs a 20 or 40x one for best results. I am assuming
a truly flat subject where no depth of field is needed. It DOF
is needed, then the only hope is "slices" added up in software.

Remember that at 20x magnification, at f/1 AT THE SUBJECT
you get f/20 AT THE SENSOR. F/1 or even f/0.8 is available
in microscope objectives he can use. F/0.35 is available but
useless for his application (works only in oil!). Those are at the subject.

This is a specialized application. HE does NOT want an microscope since
he already has the stepper motor setup, he just need the objective
and some sort of illumination system. Olympus makes, or at least used to make,
the best equipment for this.

NOTE: some newer objectives are not designed to focus down on the
output side and need a "tube lens". These may have inacceptable
lateral chromatic if used without the manufacturer's tube lens.

Doug McDonald
Eric Smith - 28 Apr 2008 22:57 GMT
Doug McDonald wrote:
> The OP needs a microscope objective. With a good one flat field is
> no problem. He needs a 20 or 40x one for best results. I am assuming
> a truly flat subject where no depth of field is needed.

I think the surface of the subject should be flat to within better than
2 microns.  What may be tricky is leveling it relative to the camera.

If I buy an objective lens for a microscope, do you have any recommendations
as to mounting it?  How do I determine how far from the sensor it should be
mounted?  (Maybe I need to go back to school to study optics!)

> he just need the objective
> and some sort of illumination system. Olympus makes, or at least used to make,
> the best equipment for this.

I've looked at the Olympus site, and am somewhat lost.  If it's not too
much trouble, can you give me any more specific idea as to what I'm looking
for?

Thanks!
Eric
Floyd L. Davidson - 29 Apr 2008 06:47 GMT
>If I buy an objective lens for a microscope, do you have any recommendations
>as to mounting it?  How do I determine how far from the sensor it should be
>mounted?  (Maybe I need to go back to school to study optics!)

Mount it to a toolmaker's metallurgical microscope frame.

>> he just need the objective
>> and some sort of illumination system. Olympus makes, or at least used to make,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>much trouble, can you give me any more specific idea as to what I'm looking
>for?

Olympus makes good equipment.  So does Nikon.  Oddly
enough, for your purposes it will probably be best to
look at some fairly old used equipment, including
Unitron.

The Olympus webpage has much good info, and these are a
couple to start with:

 http://www.olympusmicro.com/primer/faq.html

This one is long with lots of general information:

 http://www.olympusmicro.com/primer/microscopy.pdf

Do read the whole thing, but first you might want to check these
two sections:

 page 22, "Reflected Light Microscopy"
 page 37, "Digital Photomicrography"

Here is another very useful URL which discusses selection
of projection lenses for photomicography:

 http://krebsmicro.com/relayDSLR/relayoptics1.html

This URL will help with general photomacrography information
and with the terminology and has a chart of abbreviations:

 http://www.dyerlabs.com/microscopy/special.html

Signature

Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)              floyd@apaflo.com

Eric Smith - 30 Apr 2008 01:56 GMT
I wrote:
> I've looked at the Olympus site, and am somewhat lost.  If it's not too
> much trouble, can you give me any more specific idea as to what I'm looking
> for?

[lots of good advice and references, including...]
> The Olympus webpage has much good info, and these are a
> couple to start with:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>   http://www.olympusmicro.com/primer/microscopy.pdf
[etc.]

Thanks!  That was exactly the sort of information I needed!

Eric
Eric Smith - 28 Apr 2008 22:42 GMT
> So your need of making .5 to 1 mm full frame would be almost impossible and
> so badly formed that you may get only a few clear pixels in the center of
> the image.

If "few" was as much as 1% of the total image area (10% linear on each axis),
that might be enough, since my X-Y stage has very good resolution.  (I don't
have the numbers handy to quote a specific resolution figure).

But if you really only mean a few pixels, you're correct that it won't be
useful.

Thanks,
Eric
user@domain.invalid - 28 Apr 2008 22:47 GMT
>> So your need of making .5 to 1 mm full frame would be almost impossible and
>> so badly formed that you may get only a few clear pixels in the center of
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Thanks,
> Eric

What are you going to photograph?

Remember that lenses are available at 20x magnification that will
resolve .5 micron ... that is, 1000 line pairs per mm.

You may not need that. If you don't, the (fixed focus) lens from a $50 teensy
surveillance camera, used backwards, may work fine.

Doug McDonald
Eric Smith - 30 Apr 2008 01:58 GMT
Doug McDonald wrote:
> What are you going to photograph?

PMOS integrated circuits fabricated between 1975 and 1978.
Minimum feature size (as drawn) is at least 3 microns.

> Remember that lenses are available at 20x magnification that will
> resolve .5 micron ... that is, 1000 line pairs per mm.

Really?  Can you point me to any specific models?

Thanks!
Eric
user@domain.invalid - 30 Apr 2008 14:39 GMT
> Doug McDonald wrote:
>> What are you going to photograph?
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Thanks!
> Eric

Unfortunately, not usefully. I can point to plenty of ones
that need a tube lens, but not ones that don't. They do exist.

Remember this: resolving power is determined by "numerical aperture",
N. A.

f/number =      1 / (2 * N. A.) (for lenses working in air)

In other words an N. A. 1.0 lens is f/0.5
                        0.5 lens is f/1.0
                        0.3 lens is f/1.6
     etc.

resolving power, defined as the half-width of the blur function at the
subject, is roughly f/number, in microns.

In other words, the blur of an N. A. 0.5 objective is about 1 micron.
This is fairly rough, formally it is actually 0.83 microns.

You don't need a big-name objective to get the job done.

Google on "microscope objectives". You need a "plan" one (i.e. flat field) for "no tube lens"
or NOT "infinite focus" and also if it matters for that objective, NO COVER GLASS.

Also, you need to worry about working distance if you intend to send light in from the side.

I found many objectives that will work under $150 ... but I didn't check to see
if they will work well with no cover glass.

Doug McDonald
Floyd L. Davidson - 30 Apr 2008 18:44 GMT
>> Doug McDonald wrote:
>>> What are you going to photograph?
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
>Also, you need to worry about working distance if you intend to send light in from the side.

Objectives for metallurgical work are the ones which fit
the description.  They have longer working distances and
are intended for use with no cover glass.  Typically
there will be an "M", "N", or "E" in the model number.
Zeiss might label something as "EpiPlan".

A typical description would look like this:

   40x/0.70  160/-

The 40x indicates the magnification when used as a
microscope, the 0.70 is the N.A. value as discussed
above (indicating the aperture), the 160 is the tube
length it was designed for (avoid any listed as "inf"),
and the "-" indicates that is it designed to be used
without a slip cover (otherwise a number, such as ".17"
would be listed, and indicates the thickness of the slip
cover).

The problem that I'd wonder about is that typically the
objective and the ocular or projection lenses are
matched pairs with aberrrations compensated partially in
each.  Apparently Nikon may not do that, and therefore
might be the best choice of manufacturer, but I have
never been able to positively confirm that.  I've never
seen any numbers for Unitron either, though the
nomenclature they use for oculars would indicate
compensation too.

Typically available objectives that might meet Eric's
needs are:

10X:
  Leitz                       10x/0.25 170/-
  Nikon E Plan                10x/0.25 160/-
  Olympus Neo                 10x/0.25 200/
  Unitron MF (Plan Acro)      10x/0.25
  Unitron MPL                 10x/0.25
  Zeiss NPL Fluotar           10x/0.30 160/-

20X:
  Olympus NeoPlan             20x/0.40
  Unitron MF (Plan Acro)      20x/0.40
  Unitron MPL                 20x/0.40
  Unitron M                   20x/0.45

40X:
  Unitron Epi MF (Plan Acro)  40x/0.65 170
  Unitron MPl                 40x/0.65 170/-
  Unitron M Plan              40x/0.65 170/-
  Unitron M Acro              40x/0.65 170/-
  Zeiss EpiPlan-HD            40x/0.85 160/0

Olympus and Unitron objectives are very common and
usually relatively inexpensive.  Nikon and Zeiss seem to
run hot and cold on prices.  Regardless, it should be
possible to come up with a representative example for
less than $100 that is at least useful for testing.  If
it is worth the difference, there are certainly a number
of objectives that cost several hundreds of dollars.

Signature

Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)              floyd@apaflo.com

BobW - 28 Apr 2008 04:30 GMT
> I'm considering buying a Canon Digital Rebel XSi for a project involving
> macro photography, and I'm looking for advice regarding macro lenses,
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> Thanks!
> Eric

Eric,

You need to learn about 'extension tubes'. They are simple, inexpensive, and
yield amazing results when doing macro photography -- even without a
so-called macro lens. I have the Kenko versions. Here's a picture of them:

http://www.pbase.com/image/85976907

You'll need to consult Canon's website to see what lenses are compatible
with them. There's a spreadsheet somewhere on the Canon site that gives
these details.

I use the extension tubes with the Canon 24-70mm f/2.8 lens and have taken
some incredible pictures of little bugs. I sent some of these pictures to a
friend of mine and she threw up (she really did). So, you know they were
good pictures.

I'm not sure you can get a 1mm object to fill your camera's sensor, but just
using a macro lens won't get you there (for sure).

If you can't get the information you need to confirm whether you can do what
you want (or not), then post a reply and I'll try it on my setup.

Bob
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BobW - 28 Apr 2008 04:59 GMT
>> I'm considering buying a Canon Digital Rebel XSi for a project involving
>> macro photography, and I'm looking for advice regarding macro lenses,
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
>
> Bob

Eric,

I found that Canon document and it looks like the best magnification you can
get *is* with their MP-E65mm f/2.8 1-5x macro lens (5x max magnification).
With a 25mm extension tube, the best you can get is about 1.25x with a
non-macro lens (the 24-70mm f/2.8L), or 1.39x with their EF 100mm f/2.8
macro USM lens.

You can stack extension tubes to get more magnification, but at some point
you will not be able to achieve focus.

Even with about 1x magnification, you'll still get a decent number of pixels
to cover your subject. You might want to give it a try.

Bob
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Paul Furman - 28 Apr 2008 05:54 GMT
> I plan to take many photos with a small shift, and stitch them
>>> together

The bellows arrangements which allow this kind of shifting the camera
with the lens held in place aren't cheap, or at least not common for
35mm work.
Floyd L. Davidson - 28 Apr 2008 09:23 GMT
>> I plan to take many photos with a small shift, and stitch them
>>>> together
>
>The bellows arrangements which allow this kind of shifting the camera
>with the lens held in place aren't cheap, or at least not common for
>35mm work.

Didn't he describe owning a very nice platform to shift
the position of the object, not the camera.  It should
do fine.

Signature

Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)              floyd@apaflo.com

Eric Smith - 28 Apr 2008 22:29 GMT
I wrote:
> I plan to take many photos with a small shift, and stitch them
> together

> The bellows arrangements which allow this kind of shifting the camera
> with the lens held in place aren't cheap, or at least not common for
> 35mm work.

Thanks for the info, but I won't need one of those.  I wrote in my original
posting that I have a precision X-Y stage with microstepping control, so
the camera will be fixed and the sample will move.
Eric Smith - 28 Apr 2008 07:29 GMT
> I found that Canon document and it looks like the best magnification you can
> get *is* with their MP-E65mm f/2.8 1-5x macro lens (5x max magnification).
> With a 25mm extension tube, the best you can get is about 1.25x with a
> non-macro lens (the 24-70mm f/2.8L), or 1.39x with their EF 100mm f/2.8
> macro USM lens.

So the extension tube gets me less magnification?  I thought the point
of it was to get more?

I'm looking at Canon's chart:
   http://consumer.usa.canon.com/app/pdf/lens/EFLensChart.pdf

The list the EF 180mm f/3.5L Macro USM as having a magnification of 10.9x
when used with the EF 12 II extension tube.  Is this a typo?

How does the magnification achievable with reverse-mounting a lens
compare with that of macro lenses?
Joseph Meehan - 28 Apr 2008 12:58 GMT
>> I found that Canon document and it looks like the best magnification you
>> can
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> How does the magnification achievable with reverse-mounting a lens
> compare with that of macro lenses?

   Extension tubes don't change magnification, they just allow you to focus
closer.  While that likely was want you meant, there is a difference.

Signature

Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit

Eric Smith - 28 Apr 2008 22:31 GMT
>    Extension tubes don't change magnification, they just allow you to
> focus closer.  While that likely was want you meant, there is a
> difference.

Thanks very much for that clarification, as that was a point I did not
understand.  I don't necessarily need the ability to focus especially
closely, except to the extent that doing so might be necessary for the
magnification I need.
BobW - 28 Apr 2008 16:54 GMT
>> I found that Canon document and it looks like the best magnification you
>> can
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> How does the magnification achievable with reverse-mounting a lens
> compare with that of macro lenses?

The extension tubes will allow you to focus at a closer distance, so the
apparent magnification increases (as compared with not adding the tube).
There's a limit to focusability of a lens/tube combo, so it may be that for
a given tube length, the focus distance increases with that tube. I just
don't know enough about the physics.

It looks like Canon has updated their chart. I was looking at an old copy
(couple years). I would call them and verify that 10.9x number, but it may
be real. However, it's a $1200 lens (plus $80 for the tube).

I don't know about reverse-mounting lenses. Perhaps someone else will answer
that one.

Bob
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Eric Smith - 28 Apr 2008 22:32 GMT
> It looks like Canon has updated their chart. I was looking at an old copy
> (couple years). I would call them and verify that 10.9x number, but it may
> be real.

OK, it's definitely worth a call.

> However, it's a $1200 lens (plus $80 for the tube).

I'm hoping to be able to rent the lens, but if that's not possible, I'd
be willing to buy it provided that I have some reasonable confidence that it
will do what I need.  Confirming Canon's published magnification number
will go a long way toward that.

Thanks!
Eric
Bob Williams - 28 Apr 2008 06:35 GMT
> I'm considering buying a Canon Digital Rebel XSi for a project involving
> macro photography, and I'm looking for advice regarding macro lenses,
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> Thanks!
> Eric

I don't know what your ultimate goal might be....BUT....
The following option may work for you and it is very inexpensive.
See:  http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=4220456
Bob Williams
Eric Smith - 28 Apr 2008 22:35 GMT
> I don't know what your ultimate goal might be....BUT....
> The following option may work for you and it is very inexpensive.
> See:  http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=4220456

Wow!  I'd rather just buy optics for use with a good camera, but as
you say, it is amazingly inexpensive.  I think I'll have to buy one of
those even if it doesn't help with this particular project!

Thanks,
Eric
tomm42 - 28 Apr 2008 13:42 GMT
> I'm considering buying a Canon Digital Rebel XSi for a project involving
> macro photography, and I'm looking for advice regarding macro lenses,
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> Thanks!
> Eric

I have done a lot of work with photography of surgical instruments for
ophthalmology including vitrectomy instruments which have a barrel and
cutting head of 1mm. These are made of stainless steel and anodized
steel or titanium. I mostly photographed them from 1:1 to 5x. My best
results were with a 120mm f5.6 Apo-Macro Nikkor a lens designed for
this magnification, some images were enlarged to 40x72 inches for
trade shows. Anything over 5x the metal texture got in the way of the
overall appearance/funtionality of the instrument photograph. You
didn't say what the purpose of the photos were or the the material you
were photographing but very high magnifications lower your depth of
field considerably, for this reason I shot with a 4x5 view camera so I
could vary my plain of focus. Also how close you get to the subject
affects your lighting, with most lenses at 10X mag you will be within
a few millimeters of the subject, and if the subject is reflective the
lens will make any lighting difficult. Consider fiber optics for
lighting.
You have a good solid stage to work on but pay close attention to how
your camera is mounted a heavy tripod, studio stand or copy stand is
necessary. At 10X you should look for a macro photography camera
system so everything can be steady, granted this is an expensive
proposition, but high mag photography can be a frustrating experience
if the equipment is getting in your way.

Tom
Alfred Molon - 28 Apr 2008 19:32 GMT
> I'm considering buying a Canon Digital Rebel XSi for a project involving
> macro photography, and I'm looking for advice regarding macro lenses,
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> The camera has an APS-C size sensor (22.2 x 14.8 mm).

Have you considered a camera with a small sensor? Would be better
capable of photographing very small objects.
Signature


Alfred Molon
------------------------------
Olympus 50X0, 8080, E3X0, E4X0, E5X0 and E3 forum at
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/
http://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site

John Passaneau - 28 Apr 2008 20:19 GMT
> In article <m3wsmionuw.fsf@donnybrook.brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith
> says...
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Have you considered a camera with a small sensor? Would be better
> capable of photographing very small objects.

You’re going to need to use a microscope to get that much magnification.
I use a 20mm bellows mount macro lens and bellows with my digital rebel
and I can’t get that much magnification. No extension tube, reverse
mount will do what you want. Your best bet is to get a microscope and
mount adapter so the camera can be used on it. Note: the bellow mount
macro and bellows are old Cannon equipment made for the FD series film
camera. You can get it on E-Bay now and then but it will cost you an arm
and leg for it. Basic information:
The magnification you get is set by the number of focal lengths the lens
is from the film/senor. A 50mm lens 50mm from the film/sensor is a
magnification of 1 A 20mm lens, 200mm from the film/sensor has a
magnification of 10. In macro photography magnification is measure by
the size of the image on the film/sensor. So with a magnification of 1,
if the object is 1mm tall, it will be 1mm tall on the film/senor. Given
that you will need a magnification of 14 to fill you sensor. For my 20mm
macro lens it would need to be 280mm away from the sensor, far longer
than any bellows I know about. Note: reversing the lens doesn’t change
its focal length, just its optical performance close up (makes it
better). A smaller senor sounds like it would help, but in real life
given the longer expose need for macro work, the increased noise from
the small sensor offsets any advantage you might get. Hope this helps

John Passaneau
Archibald - 29 Apr 2008 00:37 GMT
>I'm considering buying a Canon Digital Rebel XSi for a project involving
>macro photography, and I'm looking for advice regarding macro lenses,
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>or 20x of that magnification is due to the magnification of the
>eyepiece, which I wouldn't have with the camera adapter.

If I understand correctly, you need a magnification of around 10 to
20. By this I mean that the image size on the sensor of the camera is
10 to 20 times as big as what you are shooting.

I agree with some other posters that your best solution might be a
microscope.

You should also be able to achieve this by reversing an ordinary Canon
lens. A little background first... Lenses are designed to work best at
particular subject and lens extension distances... normally the
optimal subject distance is from infinity to around 10 times the focal
length, and this corresponds to a lens to sensor distance of
approximately the focal length plus a couple of millimeters.

To use an example, consider a "normal lens", which would be about 35mm
focal length for the Excess Eye (XSi). Depending in which lens
exactly, it will work great focused from infinity to about 300 mm from
the lens.

If you try to get closer by using extension rings, you will be able to
focus closer, but the optical quality starts to deteriorate a bit.
When you get so close that you are near 1:1 (image and subject about
the same size), image quality is worse, and continues to get worse as
you go greater than 1. To some extent you can manage by stopping down,
but that is of limited use.

The fix is to reverse the lens when you need to shoot well over 1:1.
Then the lens becomes happy again because its distances once again are
close to its ideal distances... except that everything is in reverse.
Thus the distance from the back of the lens to the subject is now
about the same as lens-sensor when shooting at normal distances, and
the distance from the front of the lens to the sensor is now around
300 mm or greater, which is about right for this lens. The light rays
don't mind going backwards.

To give some examples ---

You are shooting a pair of shoes or whatever with the lens mounted
normally. The distance to the subject is 400 mm. With that distance,
the magnification on the sensor will be m = 0.1, and the lens
extension is 3.4mm... so the distance from the center of the lens to
the sensor is 35 + 3.4 = 38.4 mm.

Now you reverse the lens using a reverse adapter, and shoot something
very tiny. The lens-subject distance is very close at 38mm, the
lens-sensor is racked out to 420 mm, and the magnification is now
11:1. The size of the subject  will be about 2 mm. The numbers are
similar to above but reversed. Image quality should be great.

But depth of field will be very shallow, about 0.5 mm according to my
calculations. And lighting the subject will be tricky.

I'm guessing you will find it easier to use a microscope for this kind
of application, but reversing the lens is a cheap and potentially good
way to do it.

Archibald
Archibald - 29 Apr 2008 02:17 GMT
>>I'm considering buying a Canon Digital Rebel XSi for a project involving
>>macro photography, and I'm looking for advice regarding macro lenses,
[quoted text clipped - 80 lines]
>
>Archibald

Here's a link to a web site of someone who has adapted a bellows to a
Canon for macrophotography -- check out the link at the bottom too.

http://www.ganymeta.org/~darren/photo_bellows.php

Archibald
Eric Smith - 30 Apr 2008 02:00 GMT
> You should also be able to achieve this by reversing an ordinary Canon
> lens.
[followed by a detailed explanation]

Thanks for writing that up!

Eric
Floyd L. Davidson - 29 Apr 2008 04:41 GMT
>I'm considering buying a Canon Digital Rebel XSi for a project involving
>macro photography, and I'm looking for advice regarding macro lenses,
>reverse mounts, etc.

You are getting a lot of wonderful information... almost
all of which is correct, but totally useless for your
needs!

Given what you have said you want to photograph, you
CANNOT do it with typical "macro" techniques.

>Basically I'm trying to photograph a flat subject such that an area
>about 1 mm on a side will be full-frame.  It would be better yet if
>I could do that for an area 0.5 mm on a side.
>
>The camera has an APS-C size sensor (22.2 x 14.8 mm).

Okay, that means between 14.8:1 and 29.6:1 magnification.

To put it simply:  You can't do that with a macro lens on
a DSLR.

You need a microscope.  You might also want to look at
other types of cameras, because while it can be done
with a DSLR that may not be the most reasonable in terms
of either convenience or price.

>I have a precision X-Y stage with stepper motors and microstepping
>control, so I can position the subject in increments of less than
>0.1 mm.  I plan to take many photos with a small shift, and stitch them
>together, probably using Hugin.  Because I expect there to be a lot of
>overlap between the images, I think I can tolerate some amount of
>vignetting, spherical abberation, etc.

Do you want _each_ image to be even higher magnification
than stated above, and for the resulting final product
to be as described above????  Or do you mean each
exposure will capture 0.5 to 1.0 mm of a larger object?

If you mean that each exposure will capture 1mm of an
object, then a typical dissecting microscope would be
appropriate (and would be very convenient to mate with
your X-Y state).  Another possibility is a toolmakers
metallurgical microscope.

If the total object is 1mm, you need even greater
magnification.  In that case the metallurgical
microscope is what you'll need.  And even if you want
1mm portions of a larger object, you might want to look
at this technique anyway, as it offers more flexibility
than a dissecting scope.

The feature you'll want to look for is the ability to
mount it in a way that you can use your X-Y stage (which
is not true of all metallurgical scopes).  Another
feature, which is almost universal though there is a
chance you don't need it, is episcopic (or "epi" for
short) illumination.  That uses a beam splitter to
illuminate the object through the same optical path that
you view it.  (That is probably _very_ useful to you.)

Metallurgical microscopes also use special objective
lenses that allow a greater lense to object distance.

Microscopes can be very expensive, but it is unlikely
that you need a fancy one.  It should be fairly easy to
find an older used model that will do fine.  They often
are available on eBay at reasonable prices, as are the
parts and pieces such as objectives and "relay lenses"
for photography.  Keep in mind that objective lenses are
matched to the eye pieces (and to the relay lenses used
for projecting into a camera), and hence should not
necessarily be mixed and matched between manufacturers.

>Is this feasible with some macro lens, combination of lenses, reversing
>ring, extension tube, etc?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>or 20x of that magnification is due to the magnification of the
>eyepiece, which I wouldn't have with the camera adapter.

This is a *large* topic, which will take a good deal of
research for you to get a handle on the perspective.
Here is a set of tutorial articles on photography through
a microscope:

http://www.microscopyu.com/articles/digitalimaging/index.html

One thing to note is that due to the optical limitations
of a microscope, the resolution of photographed images
is limited.  The practical effect is that high
resolution cameras are *not* necessary, and might even
be less useful!  A very fancy DSLR is not going to get
any better an image that some of the nicer, much less
expensive, webcam's available!  And adapting/using a
web cam with a microscope may be much less expensive and
easier to operate than mounting a DSLR on the same
scope!  In the end, the images are not different.

Signature

Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)              floyd@apaflo.com

tony cooper - 29 Apr 2008 06:06 GMT
>The feature you'll want to look for is the ability to
>mount it in a way that you can use your X-Y stage (which
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>illuminate the object through the same optical path that
>you view it.  (That is probably _very_ useful to you.)

Floyd, I was a dealer for Zeiss microscopes for 30 years.   I've been
to the Zeiss facilities in Germany.  I've sold hundreds of microscopes
and beam splitters.  The beam splitter splits the optical path.  It's
used to provide a view for a second observer or for photography.  The
field of view is illuminated coaxially with the prime viewer
completely independent of the beam splitter.  The observer or camera
is seeing the same field of view as the prime viewer, and that field
is illuminated.

The prefix "epi" means "above".  There are two types of episcopes:
one projects light from above for surface viewing, and the second -
and the most common use of "episcope" - is a device that projects an
image using a mirror.  

An overhead projector is an episcope.  The kind most of us are
familiar with, though,  is:
http://www.stds.fr/boutique/images_produits/vAT01-AR225-481.jpg  When
we were kids, we used these to project an image - usually the comic
pages - on a piece of paper taped to the wall - so we could trace over
it.

>Microscopes can be very expensive, but it is unlikely
>that you need a fancy one.  It should be fairly easy to
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>for projecting into a camera), and hence should not
>necessarily be mixed and matched between manufacturers.

I can't figure out what you're saying here, and I'm pretty familiar
with microscopes.  I have no idea what "relay lenses" are.  There are
two ways to photograph through a microscope:  (1) You attach a camera
body to a port of the beam splitter.  (2) You attach a camera body in
place of an eyepiece.  Some microscopes have built-in beam splitters
with a single port, and some use a beam splitter that goes between the
microscope body and the binoculars.  

I don't know what you mean by matching objective lenses to eyepieces.
Naturally you have to have compatibility of manufacturer, but a
microscope can be set up with several combinations of objective lenses
and eyepieces.  The combination determines the viewer's magnification
and the field of view.  

I haven't been able to figure out, from the postings I've read, if he
even really needs a camera body.  There are systems available that
send the image direct to a computer, and the computer captures the
image.  

He might be able to work with an instrument like the digital boom
microscope at
http://www.microscope.com/omano-ezvuv7-digital-articulated-zoom-boom-microscope-
p-194.html

because it doesn't appear that he needs to view the field through
eyepieces at all.  This would provide 7x to 45x magnification, or up
to 90x with the Barlow lens.  It could swing over his stage.

I have no idea about the re-sale aspect of this type of instrument,
but he could check with the company and see if an arrangement could be
made.  They may buy back the instrument at an agreed-on price if they
can re-sell it.

While $1,700 seems like it's over his budget, he'd might be spending
$1,000 on a camera system with macro accessories that doesn't do what
he wants done.  
Signature

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Floyd L. Davidson - 29 Apr 2008 10:32 GMT
For the OP, don't get sidetracked by Tony and I discussing
all this techie crap at the beginning of this article.  Go
down to the end, if you didn't do so when you read Tony's
article to start with, and check out the URL he provided
for an example camera/microscope combination.

It appears to be the perfect match!

>>The feature you'll want to look for is the ability to
>>mount it in a way that you can use your X-Y stage (which
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>to the Zeiss facilities in Germany.  I've sold hundreds of microscopes
>and beam splitters.  The beam splitter splits the optical path.  It's

Yes, that it does.  Typically one path has a light
attached, and the other has an eyepiece.  That is how
epi-illumination is typically provided.

>used to provide a view for a second observer or for photography.  The

That is, also, a not uncommon use for a beam splitter;
but does not negate the fact that episcopic illumination
is also done with a beam splitter.

>field of view is illuminated coaxially with the prime viewer
>completely independent of the beam splitter.

The coaxial illumination is done with a beam splitter,
that is entirely distinct from another beam splitter
used to provide a camera port, or another beam splitter
used to provide binocular viewing!  There are beam
splitters galore!

>The observer or camera
>is seeing the same field of view as the prime viewer, and that field
>is illuminated.

The observer/camera is not looking at the illuminator
though, which is the reason for using a beam splitter.

                    viewing eye
                         V
                         |  (beam splitter)
                         |/
                         /
     aligning eye < ====/ ====   <  light source
                       / |
                         |
                  objective lense

The light source shines into the beam splitter from the
right side, and is split between one path going down
(through the objective lense) to light the object being
viewed and a path that goes straight through to the
"aligning eye".  Some designs actually have a port that
can be visually observed to align the beam splitter and
the light source, but most do not and just block that
path.

Light which reflects from the object being viewed shines
upward into the beam splitter and is also divided into
two paths.  One goes straight upwards towards the
"viewing eye" and the other shines into the light source
port (where it is useless of course).

>The prefix "epi" means "above".  There are two types of episcopes:

The prefix "eip" means

 "A prefix, meaning upon, beside, among, on the
 outside, above, over. It becomes ep-before a vowel, as
 in epoch, and eph-before a Greek aspirate, as in
 ephemera"

Note that "episcopes" is a different word than
"episcopic".

Regardless, epi-illumination is so called because the
source of illumination is generally above the object
being viewed, rather than below it as with transmitted
light microscopy.

(I see in a second post from you that this has been
figured out.  Do note that I did not choose the
terminology, it standard terminology that the OP will
need to be familiar with if he chooses to research this
topic farther.  Also note that while epi-illumination
via the microscope is one method to provide reflected
light illumination, it isn't the only one.  Hence I said
it is likely to be very useful, but might not be.  With
"dissecting" style microscopes it is more common to see
ring lights and various forms of fiber optic
illuminators.)  If some particular light shading is
necessary or useful to make the images show topographic
detail better, it might not be epi-illumination that
works best.

>one projects light from above for surface viewing, and the second -
>and the most common use of "episcope" - is a device that projects an
>image using a mirror.

Do you see the connection with epi-illumination?

>An overhead projector is an episcope.  The kind most of us are
>familiar with, though,  is:
>http://www.stds.fr/boutique/images_produits/vAT01-AR225-481.jpg  When
>we were kids, we used these to project an image - usually the comic
>pages - on a piece of paper taped to the wall - so we could trace over
>it.

Wonderful, but with no significance to the OP or too my
discussion.

>>Microscopes can be very expensive, but it is unlikely
>>that you need a fancy one.  It should be fairly easy to
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>I can't figure out what you're saying here, and I'm pretty familiar
>with microscopes.  I have no idea what "relay lenses" are.

That is an alternate term for "projection lense".  Some
might also call it a "camera lense" or a "photo lense",
but those would be very rare.  It replaces the ocular
on a normal microscope when a camera is to be attached
rather than a human observer.

Here is a URL that I gave previously.  It goes into
detail.

http://krebsmicro.com/relayDSLR/relayoptics1.html

>There are
>two ways to photograph through a microscope:  (1) You attach a camera
>body to a port of the beam splitter.  (2) You attach a camera body in
>place of an eyepiece.

No, the camera body is not usually "in place of an
eyepiece", though that can be done, it is rare.  It is
in _addition_ to *changing* the "eyepiece" (the ocular
lense) to a projection (aka relay) lense.  Otherwise the
image will not likely "cover" the camera's sensor in a
useful manner at the same point where the image is also
in focus on the sensor.

See the above URL.  It's a complex subject.

>Some microscopes have built-in beam splitters
>with a single port, and some use a beam splitter that goes between the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>and eyepieces.  The combination determines the viewer's magnification
>and the field of view.

There are at least two ways that oculars need to be
matched to the objectives.  One is due to dependency on
the length of the tube and the other is to match
compensation for optical aberration between the ocular
and the objective lenses.

Older microscopes were all based on a specific tube
length, and the objective lenses are matched to that
length (typically 160mm but sometimes a bit more or
less).  It can be a problem if an objective designed for
a 160mm tube is used on a 210mm tube, for example.  And
modern microscopes are all designed for an "infinite"
tube, which allows any length of tube to be used, but
also requires that the objective and the ocular be
matched.  (The purpose is to allow addition of multiple
optical devices into the optical path without changing
the objective or ocular lenses.  Again, they do need to
be matched though, so only accessories from the same
manufacture are likely to work together.)

The second manner in which the objective and ocular
lenses need to be matched is in regard to the
compensation for optical aberration.  Typically,
oculars that have a 'C' or a 'K' in the designator are
"compensating" oculars.  For example, Zeiss KPL oculars
have -1.4% compensation while Leitz uses -0.75% and
Olympus used -0.7%.  Nikon, near as I can tell, tended
to use 0%, but I've never fully been able to confirm
that.  Whatever, it is clear that mixing oculars and
objectives of those manufacturers will degrade the
optics of a microscope.

>I haven't been able to figure out, from the postings I've read, if he
>even really needs a camera body.  There are systems available that
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>$1,000 on a camera system with macro accessories that doesn't do what
>he wants done.

Bingo.  You've hit what the OP needs dead on!

At least, it sure looks like it.  That assumes there is
no other, unmentioned, need for a DSLR.  I can't see how
it can be done better for less money if new equipment is
purchased.

Signature

Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)              floyd@apaflo.com

Doug McDonald - 29 Apr 2008 12:57 GMT
>> Microscopes can be very expensive, but it is unlikely
>> that you need a fancy one.  It should be fairly easy to
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> I can't figure out what you're saying here, and I'm pretty familiar
> with microscopes.  I have no idea what "relay lenses" are.

They are what the words say. I own a late 1990's inverted Zeiss Axiovert
microscope, a top of the line gizmo. The objective sends the light,
COLLIMATED, through an optional beamsplitter used for epi-fluorescence.
This beamsplitter lets the fluorescence through, and reflects the light that
comes IN to excite the fluorescence. It also contains transmission
filters for the incoming and outgoing light. It is optional, and
is not used for brightfield illumination. This is not a metallographic
microscope and does not have darkfield.

The light then continues downward through a "tube lens". This is a lens
of 163 mm focal length that focus the collimated light. The light then
goes out the bottom of the scope onto a TV camera. There is a mirror that
slides into this path and reflects the light up toward the eyepiece.
But it focuses too soon, so there is a field lens near the focus,
and, farther on, a set of relay lenses that image the first virtual
image, at the field lens, up into the eyepiece assembly. That's what
a relay lens is used for.

Because Zeiss now uses "tube lenses", an objective from my scope would
not, by itself, work properly as a camera lens. You would need the specific
Zeiss "tube lens".

Different companies (i.e. at least the big three, Nikon, Zeiss, and
Olympus) make different tube lenses. They are part of the aberration
correction system and using the wrong one will result in lateral
chromatic aberration. Olympus used to sell ... maybe still does,
and you certainly can get used, objectives that do NOT need a tube lens,
instead doing all the focusing themselves. Some of these, unfortunately,
don't correct the later chromatic, instead leaving that to the eyepiece.
However, many of them (or rather did). Any one that was intended
for photography without a tube lens did.

Doug McDonald
Eric Smith - 30 Apr 2008 02:07 GMT
> You need a microscope.

I suppose you're probably right.  I was hoping some other, less
expensive possibilities, like a Raynox MSN-505 or CM-3500 conversion
lens used with a telephoto lens might do the trick.  I can probably
find other uses for the conversion lenses anyhow, so I don't mind
buying them even if they don't work out for my current project.

> Do you want _each_ image to be even higher magnification
> than stated above, and for the resulting final product
> to be as described above????  Or do you mean each
> exposure will capture 0.5 to 1.0 mm of a larger object?

The overall size of the subject is under 10mm on a side.  I wanted
to get shots of 0.5 to 1.0 mm square portions of that, then stitch
them together.

> If you mean that each exposure will capture 1mm of an
> object, then a typical dissecting microscope would be
> appropriate (and would be very convenient to mate with
> your X-Y state).  Another possibility is a toolmakers
> metallurgical microscope.

OK, I'll look into those.

> The feature you'll want to look for is the ability to
> mount it in a way that you can use your X-Y stage (which
> is not true of all metallurgical scopes).

Some of the relatively inexpensive microscopes I've looked
at have a single-boom or double-boom mount that should do
that.  I'm not sure which would be better for stability
(vibration).

>  Another feature, which is almost universal though there is a
> chance you don't need it, is episcopic (or "epi" for
> short) illumination.  That uses a beam splitter to
> illuminate the object through the same optical path that
> you view it.  (That is probably _very_ useful to you.)

Definitely.  I hadn't even heard of it.  The microscopes
I've looked at have ring illuminators, which obviously
wouldn't be useful if the objective has to be very close
to the subject.

Thanks for all the advice!
Eric
 
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