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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / Digital Photo / November 2007

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Where are the BEST Point and Shoot Photos ?

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dumbtroll@live.com - 17 Nov 2007 01:20 GMT
Ok, i have seen some incredible dSLR photos on the
web.

I have yet to see a mind-blowing point and shoot photo
gallery.  Does anyone have a great link?

Mind you, i have pretty much decided to order the Canon 40d
tomorrow.

But if i wake up tomorrow, and find something incredible that
was done with a P&S, you can bet that i will re-consider.....

DT
JerryGrims - 17 Nov 2007 02:25 GMT
>Ok, i have seen some incredible dSLR photos on the
>web.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>DT

But it's much more fun to watch you throw away your money and then prove to you
why you did indeed just waste it. We have to make your money count for something
no? There's entertainment value in it for the rest of us.

Let me know when you get your D-SLR, I might post one photo to prove it to you.
dumbtroll@live.com - 17 Nov 2007 05:13 GMT
> >Ok, i have seen some incredible dSLR photos on the
> >web.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Let me know when you get your D-SLR, I might post one photo to prove it to you.

    Most likely, you don't even have ONE
good photo from a point a shoot!

    HA!
Scott W - 17 Nov 2007 03:14 GMT
> Ok, i have seen some incredible dSLR photos on the
> web.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> But if i wake up tomorrow, and find something incredible that
> was done with a P&S, you can bet that i will re-consider.....

A good reality check to to look at something like whale photos in PBase,
look at the ones that you like and check out what kind of  camera was
used.  I believe you will find that almost all are from DSLRs, odd when
you remember that most people are using p&s cameras.
http://search.pbase.com/search?q=whale&b=Search+Photos&c=sp

Scott
aniramca@gmail.com - 17 Nov 2007 03:40 GMT
On Nov 16, 7:20 pm, dumbtr...@live.com wrote:
> Ok, i have seen some incredible dSLR photos on the
> web.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> DT

What kind of photos that you want to take?  There are some decent
galleries which utilized Sony DSC R1 Point and shoot cameras. Try this
one.
http://www.pbase.com/tylim/root
Hope that this helps you.
dumbtroll@live.com - 17 Nov 2007 05:08 GMT
On Nov 16, 8:40�pm, anira...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Nov 16, 7:20 pm, dumbtr...@live.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> one.http://www.pbase.com/tylim/root
> Hope that this helps you.

   Some nice photos for sure.  But the DSCR1 goes
for about $1300.  I ain't going to be saving much money
there, and i wouldn't really call this DSCR1 a simple
"point and shot" either.  Seems to be a nice lens there.
Douglas - 17 Nov 2007 05:47 GMT
On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 21:08:52 -0800, dumbtroll wrote:

> On Nov 16, 8:40�pm, anira...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Nov 16, 7:20 pm, dumbtr...@live.com wrote:
>>
>> > Ok, i have seen some incredible dSLR photos on the web.
>>
>> > I have yet to see a mind-blowing point and shoot photo gallery.
�Does
>> > anyone have a great link?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> wouldn't really call this DSCR1 a simple "point and shot" either.  Seems
> to be a nice lens there.

What about this one then?
http://www.weddingsnportraits.com.au/previews/scott-katrina/

Shot entirely with a Panasonic FZ50 (after my shooter dropped the s5) ;)

Douglas
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If you don't defend your rights... You end up without any!

dumbtroll@live.com - 17 Nov 2007 08:00 GMT
> On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 21:08:52 -0800, dumbtroll wrote:
> > On Nov 16, 8:40�pm, anira...@gmail.com wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> Shot entirely with a Panasonic FZ50 (after my shooter dropped the s5) ;)

  Not bad.  But not mind-blowing.

  Here's my theory:

     The reason there are a greater number
of high quality pics taken with dSLR, is because
the better, more professional (or completely pro)photographers end up
getting the highest quality
cameras they can.  And so perhaps even more than
the technical quality of the equipment, then simple
have better eyes and instincts for good composition,
lighting, and DOF, etc.
Dennis Pogson - 17 Nov 2007 09:54 GMT
>> On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 21:08:52 -0800, dumbtroll wrote:
>>> On Nov 16, 8:40?pm, anira...@gmail.com wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> have better eyes and instincts for good composition,
> lighting, and DOF, etc.

Buy your Canon. It looks much more impressive when walking thru the park,
particularly if you step out of a Porsche or a Bentley.

You may even get some mind-blowing photos using the Canon, if you know where
to look for them!

Some poster referred to the Panasonic FZ50, not exactly what I would call a
point-and-shoot, it's Leica zoom lens will beat the Canon hands down, but
don't be influenced by such statements, order your Canon, then wait a few
months before looking for something better.

DP
dumbtroll@live.com - 17 Nov 2007 11:34 GMT
On Nov 17, 2:54�am, "Dennis Pogson" <dennis_nospampog...@ntlworld.com>
wrote:
> dumbtr...@live.com wrote:
> >> On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 21:08:52 -0800, dumbtroll wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
> Buy your Canon. It looks much more impressive when walking thru the park,
> particularly if you step out of a Porsche or a Bentley.

   ?????  What gave you the idea that i care
about the looks of the camera itself?  My
powershot G3 isn't exactly a looker!  But for
pics smaller than 8.5x11, it takes great photos.

> You may even get some mind-blowing photos using the Canon, if you know where
> to look for them!
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> don't be influenced by such statements, order your Canon, then wait a few
> months before looking for something better.

    I used to get the cheapest deal out there
for anything.  But now I'm getting tired of
upgrading all the time.....time to get the
pretty good stuff to last a while.
John Navas - 19 Nov 2007 19:01 GMT
>On Nov 17, 2:54?am, "Dennis Pogson" <dennis_nospampog...@ntlworld.com>
>wrote:

>...  My
>powershot G3 isn't exactly a looker!  But for
>pics smaller than 8.5x11, it takes great photos.

Properly printed, a G3 should be able to do excellent 8x10, and pretty
good 11x14.  In the latter case, you might want to try resizing first to
300 DPI (or even 600 DPI, depending on the printer) with Lanczos
resampling.

>     I used to get the cheapest deal out there
>for anything.  But now I'm getting tired of
>upgrading all the time.....time to get the
>pretty good stuff to last a while.

My own personal practice is usually to buy one generation back.  That
avoids the bleeding edge premium while still giving me long useful life.

Signature

Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)

dumbtroll@live.com - 21 Nov 2007 01:14 GMT
> >On Nov 17, 2:54?am, "Dennis Pogson" <dennis_nospampog...@ntlworld.com>
> >wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> 300 DPI (or even 600 DPI, depending on the printer) with Lanczos
> resampling.

     Even at 8.5x11, you start to see pixelation with the RAW
photos on the G3.  11x17 would be too much, even with resampling.
John Navas - 22 Nov 2007 01:43 GMT
>> >On Nov 17, 2:54?am, "Dennis Pogson" <dennis_nospampog...@ntlworld.com>
>> >wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>      Even at 8.5x11, you start to see pixelation with the RAW
>photos on the G3.  11x17 would be too much, even with resampling.

Only if you're dot peeping the print.  Print quality is subject to
viewing conditions and viewing distance.  An 8x12 print under normal
viewing conditions and at normal viewing distance of 22" needs only 156
PPI for excellent results, which is only 3 MP.  See
<http://www.photokaboom.com/photography/learn/printing/resolution/1_which_resolut
ion_print_size_viewing_distance.htm
>

Signature

Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)

acl - 22 Nov 2007 02:07 GMT
> An 8x12 print under normal
> viewing conditions and at normal viewing distance of 22" needs only 156
> PPI for excellent results, which is only 3 MP.  See
> <http://www.photokaboom.com/photography/learn/printing/resolution/1_wh...>

Well not to disagree here on something that is surely subjective, but
I suggest that someone reading this should print a 3mp image at A4
size and look at it before forming an opinion as to the validity of
the above statement.
Scott W - 22 Nov 2007 02:15 GMT
> > An 8x12 print under normal
> > viewing conditions and at normal viewing distance of 22" needs only 156
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> size and look at it before forming an opinion as to the validity of
> the above statement.

And it is important to start get the 3MP image either from a 3MP
camera or cropping from a larger image.  Down sizing a larger image to
3MP will give an image that is far sharper then what a 3MP camera
could ever produce.

But even if you do dowm sample, a 3MP A4 print next to a 8 MP one will
look pretty bad, at least to me it does.

Scott

Scott
John Navas - 22 Nov 2007 03:28 GMT
>> > An 8x12 print under normal
>> > viewing conditions and at normal viewing distance of 22" needs only 156
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>3MP will give an image that is far sharper then what a 3MP camera
>could ever produce.

Not true.

>But even if you do dowm sample, a 3MP A4 print next to a 8 MP one will
>look pretty bad, at least to me it does.

Not unless you're Superman.  Under normal viewing conditions and at
normal viewing distance -- any difference is beyond the limits of human
perception.

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Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)

Peter Irwin - 22 Nov 2007 04:51 GMT
> Not unless you're Superman.

distance/3438 is one minute of arc.
This represents the minimum normal acuity for healthy
human vision. The limit the best eyes is twice that good.

> Under normal viewing conditions and at
> normal viewing distance

There are two commonly excepted definitions of normal
viewing distance. One is 10 inches or 25cm, the other
is the diagonal of the print size.  The assumption
that people will not look at a print from less than
1.5 times the diagonal can be easily disproven by
handing around a box of 8x10 prints made from medium
format negatives - people do look at the prints closely
especially when there is extra detail to be seen by looking
closely.

-- any difference is beyond the limits of human
> perception.

Based on two demonstrably wrong assumptions.

Peter.
Signature

pirwin@ktb.net

John Navas - 22 Nov 2007 06:13 GMT
>> Not unless you're Superman.
>
>distance/3438 is one minute of arc.
>This represents the minimum normal acuity for healthy
>human vision. The limit the best eyes is twice that good.

You have the formula backwards, and it actually represents typical
vision under ordinary conditions of daylight viewing.  Normal indoor
light is worse.  Twice that good is only possible in ideal conditions of
a brightly illuminated test target (not real image) with the
surroundings equally brightly illuminated.  Thus 3438 ÷ distance is the
appropriate formula.

>> Under normal viewing conditions and at
>> normal viewing distance
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>especially when there is extra detail to be seen by looking
>closely.

1.5 × diagonal, which comes from authorities I've cited, is actually
conservative.

>-- any difference is beyond the limits of human
>> perception.
>
>Based on two demonstrably wrong assumptions.

You've made no such demonstration or otherwise backed up your claims,
which are at odds with authorities I've cited, and thus can't be taken
seriously.

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Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)

Peter Irwin - 22 Nov 2007 19:57 GMT
>>> Not unless you're Superman.
>>
>>distance/3438 is one minute of arc.
>>This represents the minimum normal acuity for healthy
>>human vision. The limit the best eyes is twice that good.

>You have the formula backwards,

Um, No.

I should have said:
"Viewing distance /3438 subtends one minute of arc",
Imprecise perhaps by using "is" when I should have written
"subtends", but hardly backwards.

> and it actually represents typical vision under ordinary
> conditions of daylight viewing.  Normal indoor
> light is worse.

I don't think so.
The chart on page 1638 of the Focal Encyclopedia of
Photography (1969 ed) is for a brightness of at least
10 foot-lamberts. This corresponds to an EV of 8.3
at ISO 100 - This is fairly bright for indoors, but
not unreasonable - I am actually in such an indoor
environment right now.

> 1.5 ? diagonal, which comes from authorities I've cited,
> is actually conservative.

I certainly look at my 8x10 prints from about
a one foot distance. If I wasn't intending to look
at them that closely I could have saved money
by printing 5x7s instead.  Your figure may be
about right for framed pictures on the wall,
but when I pass around prints people often look at
them fairly closely. If I have a mixture of prints
from 6x6 and 35mm in the box, people immediately
notice how much better the 6x6 ones look.

Peter.
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pirwin@ktb.net

John Navas - 22 Nov 2007 20:02 GMT
>> 1.5 ? diagonal, which comes from authorities I've cited,
>> is actually conservative.
>
>I certainly look at my 8x10 prints from about
>a one foot distance. ...

Then you need to adjust accordingly for yourself,
and not presume to judge for everyone else.

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Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)

Peter Irwin - 22 Nov 2007 20:34 GMT
>>> 1.5 ? diagonal, which comes from authorities I've cited,
>>> is actually conservative.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Then you need to adjust accordingly for yourself,
> and not presume to judge for everyone else.

Um, You are the one who is presuming to judge for everyone else.

I'm pointing out that my personal experience is that people
of my acquaintance including myself do look closely at largish
prints.

Peter.
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pirwin@ktb.net

John Navas - 22 Nov 2007 21:14 GMT
>>>> 1.5 ? diagonal, which comes from authorities I've cited,
>>>> is actually conservative.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Um, You are the one who is presuming to judge for everyone else.

I'm actually just disproving invalid generalizations.

>I'm pointing out that my personal experience is that people
>of my acquaintance including myself do look closely at largish
>prints.

I have no quibble with that.

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Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)

George Kerby - 23 Nov 2007 18:21 GMT
On 11/22/07 2:34 PM, in article fi4p45$p33$1@dns.ktb.net, "Peter Irwin"
<pirwin@ktb.net> wrote:

>>>> 1.5 ? diagonal, which comes from authorities I've cited,
>>>> is actually conservative.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Peter.
You are dealing with a pompous a.shole, just in case you didn't know.

Just ask the folks at alt.cellular.cingular...
John Navas - 23 Nov 2007 19:59 GMT
>You are dealing with a pompous a.shole, just in case you didn't know.

You've described yourself quite well.

>Just ask the folks at alt.cellular.cingular...

Just ask the trolls and common bullies at alt.cellular.cingular...

Signature

Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)

dumbtroll@live.com - 25 Nov 2007 11:26 GMT
> >>> 1.5 ? diagonal, which comes from authorities I've cited,
> >>> is actually conservative.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> of my acquaintance including myself do look closely at largish
> prints.

     This is absolutely true.  To believe everyone will look at a
print 1.5 X Diagonal is a bad assumption.

     I most certainly look at 8x10s from about a one foot distance,
and the 8.5x11s that i printed with 4MP files were just starting
to get bad pixelation, so i know 11x17 would be too large.

     I can understand a more fixed viewing distance considering
billboards:  you cannot just walk closely up to most billboards.

     But a larger print on the wall can still be examined in
detail...
John Navas - 25 Nov 2007 17:22 GMT
>      This is absolutely true.  To believe everyone will look at a
>print 1.5 X Diagonal is a bad assumption.
>
>      I most certainly look at 8x10s from about a one foot distance,
>and the 8.5x11s that i printed with 4MP files were just starting
>to get bad pixelation, so i know 11x17 would be too large.

The 1.5 x diagonal guideline comes from what the great majority of
people do in practice, and it's actually pretty conservative -- many
photographers use 2 x diagonal.  Wanting a print to still look sharp at
less that than normal viewing distance is thus a personal preference.

When people (adults) do inspect images, they don't normally move in
quite as close as you suggest -- Kodak defines "inspection distance" as
14 in.

For 8x10, the limit of normal human visual acuity at 14 in viewing
distance is satisfied by 4.8 MP, which is close enough to your 4.0 MP
that you shouldn't have much loss of sharpness given an optimum printing
process, suggesting that printing may actually be your limiting factor,
not camera resolution, assuming your camera is capable of full 4 MP
sharpness (some are, but some aren't -- glass matters).

Signature

Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)

dumbtroll@live.com - 25 Nov 2007 20:46 GMT
> On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 03:26:21 -0800 (PST), dumbtr...@live.com wrote in
> <2f2d41e5-6ee8-4728-b3d1-1ecd50e7c...@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com>:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> quite as close as you suggest -- Kodak defines "inspection distance" as
> 14 in.

     Well, i certainly include children as people!

     I don't really care about what a corporation deems as
"inspection distance", because I have my own standards.

> For 8x10, the limit of normal human visual acuity at 14 in viewing
> distance is satisfied by 4.8 MP, which is close enough to your 4.0 MP
> that you shouldn't have much loss of sharpness given an optimum printing
> process, suggesting that printing may actually be your limiting factor,
> not camera resolution, assuming your camera is capable of full 4 MP
> sharpness (some are, but some aren't -- glass matters).

     You need to take into account some inevitable cropping
too.  The printing was not the limiting factor, as i could see the
pixelation in the file itself.
John Navas - 25 Nov 2007 21:22 GMT
>> For 8x10, the limit of normal human visual acuity at 14 in viewing
>> distance is satisfied by 4.8 MP, which is close enough to your 4.0 MP
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>      You need to take into account some inevitable cropping
>too.

I assumed you were talking about the MP actually being printed.
Are you now talking about less MP, and if so, how much less?

>The printing was not the limiting factor, as i could see the
>pixelation in the file itself.

Either you're talking about a lot less MP, or something else must be
wrong.

Signature

Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)

Scott W - 25 Nov 2007 21:39 GMT
>>      This is absolutely true.  To believe everyone will look at a
>> print 1.5 X Diagonal is a bad assumption.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> quite as close as you suggest -- Kodak defines "inspection distance" as
> 14 in.

Ah yes Kodak would know.  I am sure they used the 14 inch number to
justify the disk camera, you remember the Kodak Disk camera don't you?

Kodak seems to have made a business of justifying smaller film formats,
after all the prints will be good enough, right?

You seem to want to use average people viewing with less then ideal
light as pretty far distances as the criteria for a good print, all fine
and good.  But many of us don't accept that as being anywhere near a
good print, adequate maybe not not good.

But you seem to have a problem with others having a higher standard then
you.  And if we want a sharper cleaner print you then attack our
photographic skill, after all if someone wants a sharp image they must
not be a very good photographer, right?  Odd I missed that in the
photography class I took, in fact if I recall we were among other things
trying to get a sharp print.

Scott
John Navas - 25 Nov 2007 21:51 GMT
>> When people (adults) do inspect images, they don't normally move in
>> quite as close as you suggest -- Kodak defines "inspection distance" as
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Kodak seems to have made a business of justifying smaller film formats,
>after all the prints will be good enough, right?

Is your case so weak that you again have to resort to belittling?  That
definition actually comes from Kodak Professional fine grain 35 mm film.

>You seem to want to use average people viewing with less then ideal
>light as pretty far distances as the criteria for a good print, all fine
>and good.

Notwithstanding your slanted language, it's actually the limit of human
visual acuity.

>But many of us don't accept that as being anywhere near a
>good print, adequate maybe not not good.

If you want more resolution, then by all means use more resolution.  
"Different strokes for different folks."

>But you seem to have a problem with others having a higher standard then
>you.

Not at all.  I only have a problem when they try to apply that standard
to me and/or belittle others for having different standards.

>And if we want a sharper cleaner print

It's not a sharper cleaner print at normal viewing distance.

>you then attack our
>photographic skill, after all if someone wants a sharp image they must
>not be a very good photographer, right?

I've said nothing of the sort.

>Odd I missed that in the
>photography class I took, in fact if I recall we were among other things
>trying to get a sharp print.

We just differ on what constitutes a sharp print.  That doesn't bother
me, but for some reason it seems to really bother you -- why?

Signature

Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)

Scott W - 25 Nov 2007 23:36 GMT
>>> When people (adults) do inspect images, they don't normally move in
>>> quite as close as you suggest -- Kodak defines "inspection distance" as
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
> We just differ on what constitutes a sharp print.  That doesn't bother
> me, but for some reason it seems to really bother you -- why?

You are the one who started a thread on what ppi is needed for a sharp
print, not me.  I am just taking issue with your numbers, if your
numbers work for you good, but you are putting them out telling all of
us that these are the right numbers.

Scott
John Navas - 26 Nov 2007 00:32 GMT
>> We just differ on what constitutes a sharp print.  That doesn't bother
>> me, but for some reason it seems to really bother you -- why?
>
>You are the one who started a thread on what ppi is needed for a sharp
>print, not me.

True, but not this thread, so it's clearly something that's really
bugging you.

>I am just taking issue with your numbers, if your
>numbers work for you good, but you are putting them out telling all of
>us that these are the right numbers.

For most people they are the right numbers, but not for all people,
including you.  Fair enough?

Signature

Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)

Chris Malcolm - 26 Nov 2007 10:46 GMT
>>> We just differ on what constitutes a sharp print.  That doesn't bother
>>> me, but for some reason it seems to really bother you -- why?
>>
>>You are the one who started a thread on what ppi is needed for a sharp
>>print, not me.

> True, but not this thread, so it's clearly something that's really
> bugging you.

>>I am just taking issue with your numbers, if your
>>numbers work for you good, but you are putting them out telling all of
>>us that these are the right numbers.

> For most people they are the right numbers, but not for all people,
> including you.  Fair enough?

It's not just people who differ in resolution requirements, but
subjects. For example, when people look at a portrait of a face they
usually want to view it at a distance where their eyes can comfortably
accomodate the whole face. But we often look at landscapes
differently. If, like many you like in a landscape view to be able to
roam visually around inspecting small details of interest while in the
edges of your vision getting the whole sense of a large encompassing
spatial perspective, you'll move in quite a bit closer for a wider
angle of subtended view than for a facial portrait. Hence the detail
resolution requirements will be proportionally higher.

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Chris Malcolm        cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk              DoD #205
IPAB,  Informatics,  JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

John Navas - 26 Nov 2007 21:10 GMT
>> For most people they are the right numbers, but not for all people,
>> including you.  Fair enough?
>
>It's not just people who differ in resolution requirements, but
>subjects.

So much for trying to find reasonable middle ground.  [sigh]
Oh well.  So be it.

>For example, when people look at a portrait of a face they
>usually want to view it at a distance where their eyes can comfortably
>accomodate the whole face. But we often look at landscapes
>differently.

Who is "we"?

>If, like many you like in a landscape view to be able to
>roam visually around inspecting small details of interest while in the
>edges of your vision getting the whole sense of a large encompassing
>spatial perspective, you'll move in quite a bit closer for a wider
>angle of subtended view than for a facial portrait. Hence the detail
>resolution requirements will be proportionally higher.

Sorry, but I don't think that necessarily follows.

I frankly think this thing about moving in closer is mostly a way of
justifying expensive higher resolution digital cameras.  Funny how we
didn't hear about it when the best digital cameras were around 3 MP.  ;)

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Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)

Dave Martindale - 26 Nov 2007 21:26 GMT
>Sorry, but I don't think that necessarily follows.

>I frankly think this thing about moving in closer is mostly a way of
>justifying expensive higher resolution digital cameras.  Funny how we
>didn't hear about it when the best digital cameras were around 3 MP.  ;)

10 years ago, the debate was between the people who thought that 35 mm
film provided enough resolution for landscapes, the ones who thought you
needed medium format at least, and the ones who thought anything less
than 4x5 was a waste of time.  And for pretty much the same reasons, too:
you can make a 4x6 *foot* print from large format and look at its
detail from 15 inches away, and some people like that.  Others think
that viewing from 1.5 times the diagonal is all you need.

The cameras involved have changed, but not the argument - because people
differ.

    Dave
Chris Malcolm - 27 Nov 2007 10:06 GMT
>>> For most people they are the right numbers, but not for all people,
>>> including you.  Fair enough?
>>
>>It's not just people who differ in resolution requirements, but
>>subjects.

> So much for trying to find reasonable middle ground.  [sigh]
> Oh well.  So be it.

>>For example, when people look at a portrait of a face they
>>usually want to view it at a distance where their eyes can comfortably
>>accomodate the whole face. But we often look at landscapes
>>differently.

> Who is "we"?

>>If, like many you like in a landscape view to be able to
>>roam visually around inspecting small details of interest while in the
>>edges of your vision getting the whole sense of a large encompassing
>>spatial perspective, you'll move in quite a bit closer for a wider
>>angle of subtended view than for a facial portrait. Hence the detail
>>resolution requirements will be proportionally higher.

> Sorry, but I don't think that necessarily follows.

> I frankly think this thing about moving in closer is mostly a way of
> justifying expensive higher resolution digital cameras.  Funny how we
> didn't hear about it when the best digital cameras were around 3 MP.  ;)

You didn't hear about IMAX cinema technology until cameras became
capable of the required resolution either. It's interesting to note
that the much bigger screens in IMAX cinemas haven't been used to
accomodate more viewers by having more distant view of the larger
screen.  Instead they've tried to fit in as many as possible to a much
closer view than a conventional cinema screen. The reason is that
doing so supports the landscape viewing mode I mentioned previously
that "we" (human beings) can employ. If you haven't noticed the
significantly different effects on the human eye and brain of such a
wider view of a photographic image I suggest you visit an IMAX cinema.

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John Navas - 27 Nov 2007 19:39 GMT
>> I frankly think this thing about moving in closer is mostly a way of
>> justifying expensive higher resolution digital cameras.  Funny how we
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>significantly different effects on the human eye and brain of such a
>wider view of a photographic image I suggest you visit an IMAX cinema.

My local IMAX has way more seats than its conventional theaters, and
seating distance is comparable.

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Chris Malcolm - 28 Nov 2007 10:02 GMT
>>> I frankly think this thing about moving in closer is mostly a way of
>>> justifying expensive higher resolution digital cameras.  Funny how we
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>>significantly different effects on the human eye and brain of such a
>>wider view of a photographic image I suggest you visit an IMAX cinema.

> My local IMAX has way more seats than its conventional theaters, and
> seating distance is comparable.

Sounds like someone realised you could make more profit if you ignored
quality.

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Dave Martindale - 28 Nov 2007 16:25 GMT
>>>You didn't hear about IMAX cinema technology until cameras became
>>>capable of the required resolution either. It's interesting to note
>>>that the much bigger screens in IMAX cinemas haven't been used to
>>>accomodate more viewers by having more distant view of the larger
>>>screen.  Instead they've tried to fit in as many as possible to a much
>>>closer view than a conventional cinema screen.

>> My local IMAX has way more seats than its conventional theaters, and
>> seating distance is comparable.

>Sounds like someone realised you could make more profit if you ignored
>quality.

Not at all.

The whole point of IMAX is having the screen occupy a large angle of
view at the viewer (typically 90 degrees or more for someone in the
middle of the seating area) to produce an immersive experience.  The
film frame is large (10 times the area of 1.33 aspect 35 mm film, even
more for wider-aspect 35) and the projector is much steadier in order
to provide a quality image over that large angle.

To a first approximation, you get a 90 degree FOV when your distance
from the screen is 1/2 the screen width.  In comparison, typical 35 mm
theatres provide decent viewing when you sit 1 screen width back or even
more.  (Sometimes there are much closer seats, but the image quality is
poor that close to a 35 screen).

But it doesn't matter whether you achieve that with a really large
theatre, a large screen, and fairly normal screen-to-audience seating
distance, or a small theatre and shorter seating distance.  It's the
angle occupied by the screen as seen from the audience that counts.

It sounds like Chris has seen smaller IMAX theatres, while John has seen
larger ones.

For some of the extremes: one of the first IMAX theatres is at Ontario
Place in Toronto.  The theatre is inside a huge dome (though it's a flat
screen) and seats 800 people.  The screening theatre inside Imax's
offices in Mississauga seats only about 40 people (sitting pretty close
to the screen!).  But both provide about the right angle of view, so
both provide the "IMAX experience".

    Dave
Scott W - 28 Nov 2007 16:40 GMT
>>>> You didn't hear about IMAX cinema technology until cameras became
>>>> capable of the required resolution either. It's interesting to note
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> to the screen!).  But both provide about the right angle of view, so
> both provide the "IMAX experience".

But John said the "seating distance is comparable" which I take to mean
the viewing angle of the screen is about the same as a normal theater.

After all if this is not what John meant then he really had not point.

Scott
Dave Martindale - 28 Nov 2007 19:58 GMT
>But John said the "seating distance is comparable" which I take to mean
>the viewing angle of the screen is about the same as a normal theater.

I can't read minds.  But here's how I interpreted what they said:
Chris said that IMAX theatres have a normal number of seats but seat
the audience closer to the screen than normal, with the unsaid
assumption that the screen was a normal size.

John countered that in his experience IMAX theatres have a
screen-to-audience distance that is comparable to ordinary theatres,
and many more seats than usual, with the unsaid assumption that the
screen is much larger than in a normal theatre.

And my point was that these are both proper IMAX theatres, just smaller
and larger ones.  As long as the audience sits about half the screen
width back from the screen, you get the wide FOV - whether normal
screen and relatively fewer seats up close, or very large screen and
very many seats.

>After all if this is not what John meant then he really had not point.

I think he was just saying his experience with IMAX didn't match
Chris's.

Now, should we start discussing how many pixels you would need for a
sharp IMAX image?  :-)

    Dave
Scott W - 28 Nov 2007 20:29 GMT
>> But John said the "seating distance is comparable" which I take to mean
>> the viewing angle of the screen is about the same as a normal theater.
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> Now, should we start discussing how many pixels you would need for a
> sharp IMAX image?  :-)

I read that somewhere, in any event IMAX believes they have worked it
out since they are going digital.
<http://www.forbes.com/markets/2007/10/17/imax-digital-closer-markets-equity-cx_m
l_1017markets41.html
>

It takes very little to match current 35mm movies systems, which are
only half frame of 35mm still cameras.

If I recall IMAX will be going to a 4K X 2K projection system, which if
the source image is sharp enough should be out standing.  Keep in mind a
8MP digital DSLR does not produce the sharpest 8MP image possible, for
that you would want to start with something like a 16MP image and down
size to 8MP.

Scott
Allen - 28 Nov 2007 20:33 GMT
> Now, should we start discussing how many pixels you would need for a
> sharp IMAX image?  :-)
>
>     Dave

Or start a new thread in a different ng. As far as I know, IMAX films
aren't shot with a P&S.
Allen
Scott W - 28 Nov 2007 20:53 GMT
>> Now, should we start discussing how many pixels you would need for a
>> sharp IMAX image?  :-)
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> aren't shot with a P&S.
> Allen

But for how much longer, some of the newer P&S are shooting high res video.

Scott
Chris Malcolm - 30 Nov 2007 11:29 GMT
>>But John said the "seating distance is comparable" which I take to mean
>>the viewing angle of the screen is about the same as a normal theater.

> I can't read minds.  But here's how I interpreted what they said:
> Chris said that IMAX theatres have a normal number of seats but seat
> the audience closer to the screen than normal, with the unsaid
> assumption that the screen was a normal size.

> John countered that in his experience IMAX theatres have a
> screen-to-audience distance that is comparable to ordinary theatres,
> and many more seats than usual, with the unsaid assumption that the
> screen is much larger than in a normal theatre.

> And my point was that these are both proper IMAX theatres, just smaller
> and larger ones.  As long as the audience sits about half the screen
> width back from the screen, you get the wide FOV - whether normal
> screen and relatively fewer seats up close, or very large screen and
> very many seats.

>>After all if this is not what John meant then he really had not point.

> I think he was just saying his experience with IMAX didn't match
> Chris's.

My point about IMAX was that it's based on the fact that due to the
physiology of human vision you get a qualitatively different viewing
experience when the subtended angle of the image is much larger than
the usual standard still photograph or film theatre angle. If you want
to exploit that with a photographic print you're inevitably involved
with higher image resolutions than those which John Navas was citing
as standards. For example the diagonal of the image rectangle standard
gave us the standard 50mm lens for 35mm film which if viewed from the
same perspective gives us a subtended viewing angle of about 40
degrees, which is less than half the IMAX subtended angle of 90, which
roughly speaking will need 4 times the image pixels for the same
apparent sharpness.

So if you're producing a landscape photograph which is meant to be
viewed at a subtended angle of 90 degrees for the proper visual effect
then you'll need a camera with around 24MP to achieve the same degree
of apparent sharpness as an 8x10 print viewed at the diagonal distance
of 13 inches and produced by a 6MP camera, e.g. the Mamiya ZD.

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Dave Martindale - 30 Nov 2007 21:32 GMT
>So if you're producing a landscape photograph which is meant to be
>viewed at a subtended angle of 90 degrees for the proper visual effect
>then you'll need a camera with around 24MP to achieve the same degree
>of apparent sharpness as an 8x10 print viewed at the diagonal distance
>of 13 inches and produced by a 6MP camera, e.g. the Mamiya ZD.

Yes, those numbers all make sense.  In the case of IMAX, the image is
about 3 times the dimensions (10 times the area) of 35 mm 4-perf
full-aperture, so there's potentially 3 times as much detail to spread
over a visual angle that's somewhat less than 3 times larger than
normal, resulting in an image that's actually sharper than 35 despite
the larger size.

(A lot of other things go into getting sharp images that size in a movie
system, too.  IMAX cameras and projectors are all pin-registered for
image stability, most 35 cameras and essentially all 35 projectors are
not, so the 35 image wanders much more.  Thankfully, still photography
doesn't have to deal with frame-to-frame registration).

    Dave
John Navas - 25 Nov 2007 22:49 GMT
>>>      I most certainly look at 8x10s from about a one foot distance,
>>> and the 8.5x11s that i printed with 4MP files were just starting
>>> to get bad pixelation, so i know 11x17 would be too large.

To be getting "bad pixelation" you must have something wrong in your
printing workflow.  Whether upsampled for printing with good software in
advance, or by a good printer driver, the print should at most be
getting soft, not pixelated.

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Peter Irwin - 26 Nov 2007 02:01 GMT
> Ah yes Kodak would know.  I am sure they used the 14 inch number to
> justify the disk camera, you remember the Kodak Disk camera don't you?

While Kodak has done some daft things from time to time,
and the Disc camera was certainly one of them, their research
is generally good.

I do not know where John Novas is getting the 14 inch figure from.

If it is from the Print Grain Index (PGI) then I think he is
misunderstanding the goal of the research.  The evaluation of
grain on the PGI test requires a set distance. The relative
amounts of grain for different film will be different for different
distances.  

But the PGI test is not a lax test. There is only one colour
negative film Kodak ever made that gets a perfect "less than 25"
score on the PGI test with 4x6 prints from 35mm film. That film
is Ektar/Royal Gold 25.  Having seen the results posted from his
camera, I do not believe there is any way those can be printed
to yield subjective quality comparable to Ektar 25 film.

Peter.
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John Navas - 26 Nov 2007 02:22 GMT
>> Ah yes Kodak would know.  I am sure they used the 14 inch number to
>> justify the disk camera, you remember the Kodak Disk camera don't you?
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>amounts of grain for different film will be different for different
>distances.  

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/e58/e58.jhtml

  The PGI method specifies a common viewing distance of 14 inches (36
  cm) for all print sizes.

  The distance at which small (4 x 6-inch) prints are typically viewed
  is 14 inches. This is also the approximate distance at which larger
  prints are usually inspected for graininess. For meaningful
  comparisons, you should relate PGI numbers to each other only at the
  specified, common print sizes of 4 x 6, 8 x 10, and 16 x 20 inches.

>But the PGI test is not a lax test. There is only one colour
>negative film Kodak ever made that gets a perfect "less than 25"
>score on the PGI test with 4x6 prints from 35mm film. That film
>is Ektar/Royal Gold 25.  Having seen the results posted from his
>camera, I do not believe there is any way those can be printed
>to yield subjective quality comparable to Ektar 25 film.

Has no bearing on the issue at hand, but I'd be happy to take that bet
assuming I get to pick the subject.

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Peter Irwin - 26 Nov 2007 03:10 GMT
>>But the PGI test is not a lax test. There is only one colour
>>negative film Kodak ever made that gets a perfect "less than 25"
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Has no bearing on the issue at hand,

It has every bearing on the issue at hand. The 14 inch distance
is part and parcel of the PGI test, but a perfect 25 score on the
PGI test is way stricter than David Littleboy, who is stricter
than me. You can't use the distance specified for that test to
justify lax standards.

> but I'd be happy to take that bet
> assuming I get to pick the subject.

Ektar 25 hasn't been made in years. If you want a PGI of "25 or less"
on a 4x6 print you will have to go with medium format.

Peter.
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John Navas - 26 Nov 2007 03:14 GMT
>>>But the PGI test is not a lax test. There is only one colour
>>>negative film Kodak ever made that gets a perfect "less than 25"
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>than me. You can't use the distance specified for that test to
>justify lax standards.

Again, you're ducking my point, which is that Kodak specifies 14 inches
as the standard inspection distance.

<http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/e58/e58.jhtml>

  The PGI method specifies a common viewing distance of 14 inches (36
  cm) for all print sizes.

  The distance at which small (4 x 6-inch) prints are typically viewed
  is 14 inches. This is also the approximate distance at which larger
  prints are usually inspected for graininess. For meaningful
  comparisons, you should relate PGI numbers to each other only at the
  specified, common print sizes of 4 x 6, 8 x 10, and 16 x 20 inches.

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Chris Malcolm - 27 Nov 2007 10:14 GMT
>>>>But the PGI test is not a lax test. There is only one colour
>>>>negative film Kodak ever made that gets a perfect "less than 25"
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>>than me. You can't use the distance specified for that test to
>>justify lax standards.

> Again, you're ducking my point, which is that Kodak specifies 14 inches
> as the standard inspection distance.

Standards are needed for purposes of scientific comparison. There's
also a standard human stride, a standard human height, and a standard
human finger, all of which people vary quite a bit from. There's a
funny story about a chap called Procrustes who thought people ought to
adhere to a standard human height.

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John Navas - 22 Nov 2007 03:27 GMT
>> An 8x12 print under normal
>> viewing conditions and at normal viewing distance of 22" needs only 156
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>size and look at it before forming an opinion as to the validity of
>the above statement.

Actually science and the limits of human perception, as you would know
if you'd paid much attention to the article.

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acl - 22 Nov 2007 03:29 GMT
> On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 18:07:29 -0800 (PST), acl
> <achilleaslazari...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Actually science and the limits of human perception, as you would know
> if you'd paid much attention to the article.

Science, eh? Hah! Anyway, it's trivial to test this for anybody owning
a printer.
Kitsuo Yamagashi - 22 Nov 2007 07:16 GMT
>> An 8x12 print under normal
>> viewing conditions and at normal viewing distance of 22" needs only 156
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>size and look at it before forming an opinion as to the validity of
>the above statement.

I've seen 0.7mp images printed at 8x10 that look good. After up-sampling to
disguise the huge camera pixels. The subject matter only has to be good enough
that the lower resolution isn't noticed. Is your photography that good? If it is
then you don't need, or worry about, high camera or print resolution.

Commonplace photography + high resolution is like 2000 TV stations with nothing
worth watching on any of them.
John Navas - 22 Nov 2007 07:38 GMT
>>> An 8x12 print under normal
>>> viewing conditions and at normal viewing distance of 22" needs only 156
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>that the lower resolution isn't noticed. Is your photography that good? If it is
>then you don't need, or worry about, high camera or print resolution.

Your basic point about subject is valid, but I think 0.7 MP (93 PPI)
really is too low to look very good at 8x10 at normal viewing distance
even with a great subject.  From both theory and my own experience, I'd
put the lower bound for good 8x10 at about 1.4 MP, twice your number.

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Kitsuo Yamagashi - 22 Nov 2007 08:51 GMT
>>>> An 8x12 print under normal
>>>> viewing conditions and at normal viewing distance of 22" needs only 156
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>even with a great subject.  From both theory and my own experience, I'd
>put the lower bound for good 8x10 at about 1.4 MP, twice your number.

True, it looked perfectly awful as direct image to direct print. The original
pixels printed so huge that they were an extremely annoying distraction. That
preventing people from appreciating the subject. An S-Spline algorithm was
applied to it to quadruple the available pixels to print so the blockiness
disappeared when printed. Nobody noticed the softer edges and details. The
subject handled the soft-focus look extremely well, almost improved it. Many go
out of their way to add  that effect for some subjects.

My error. I just recalled something. The reason it looked so terrible, first
time it was printed on a 14x11 paper just for fun. That's why it was upsampled
4x. Then it looked just fine at 14x11.

So there you go. 0.7mp can even be used for a 14x11 image if the subject is good
enough. (1024x768)x4=4096x3072  Plenty of pixels for an appreciable print at
that size. IF ( <-- underline, italics, bold, larger font) the subject can
handle it. There are no cut and dried rules.

I've seen some modern art wall-sized paintings that sold for hundreds of
thousands. The whole composition could have been captured and duplicated with a
camera of only 36 pixels. Something to think about.
John Navas - 22 Nov 2007 09:03 GMT
>>Your basic point about subject is valid, but I think 0.7 MP (93 PPI)
>>really is too low to look very good at 8x10 at normal viewing distance
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>applied to it to quadruple the available pixels to print so the blockiness
>disappeared when printed.

I was including resampling to more pixels.

>Nobody noticed the softer edges and details. The
>subject handled the soft-focus look extremely well, almost improved it. Many go
>out of their way to add  that effect for some subjects.

That's not really soft focus, that's blurring, which is quite different.

>My error. I just recalled something. The reason it looked so terrible, first
>time it was printed on a 14x11 paper just for fun. That's why it was upsampled
>4x. Then it looked just fine at 14x11.
>
>So there you go. 0.7mp can even be used for a 14x11 image if the subject is good
>enough. (1024x768)x4=4096x3072  ...

Sorry, but I don't agree.

>I've seen some modern art wall-sized paintings that sold for hundreds of
>thousands. The whole composition could have been captured and duplicated with a
>camera of only 36 pixels. Something to think about.

But not a meaningful analogy.

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Chris Malcolm - 22 Nov 2007 10:53 GMT
>> An 8x12 print under normal
>> viewing conditions and at normal viewing distance of 22" needs only 156
>> PPI for excellent results, which is only 3 MP.  See
>> <http://www.photokaboom.com/photography/learn/printing/resolution/1_wh...>

> Well not to disagree here on something that is surely subjective, but
> I suggest that someone reading this should print a 3mp image at A4
> size and look at it before forming an opinion as to the validity of
> the above statement.

I was rather startled to discover some years ago that I couldn't see
any failures in sharpness or detail on A4 prints from my 3MP digital
camera when viewed at a distance of two feet. I hadn't expected them
to be as good as that.  I could easily see the failures of detail
etc. at six inches, however. Extrapolating from that result I would
expect 6MP to be good enough for A3 prints at two foot viewing
distance, and 12MP for A2. The "A" paper sizes go up in size
increments of the square root of 2, so every doubling of image pixels
should get you up one A4 size. Like apertures and shutter speeds.

In a week or two I will have discovered what 10MP can look like at A2
on a wall at two feet :-)

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acl - 22 Nov 2007 11:58 GMT
> >> An 8x12 print under normal
> >> viewing conditions and at normal viewing distance of 22" needs only 156
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> In a week or two I will have discovered what 10MP can look like at A2
> on a wall at two feet :-)

Well I certainly don't disagree that, if you look from far enough, 3mp
is enough for  A4. I, however, certainly don't look at my A4 prints
from 60cm. And I do like as much detail as possible in my prints (but
then again, I am clearly a lousy photographer trying to justify my
equipment).
tim_thompson - 22 Nov 2007 15:25 GMT
>> >> An 8x12 print under normal
>> >> viewing conditions and at normal viewing distance of 22" needs only 156
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>then again, I am clearly a lousy photographer trying to justify my
>equipment).

You're finally starting to figure it out. I know you thought you were being
cutely and cleverly sarcastic, but you're not. Failing on both counts, neither
cute nor clever. You're looking at the details so much because your photography
as a whole isn't worth your attention, probably nobody else's attention either.
That's the main reason, often the only reason, that most people are as hung up
on the details as you are. You sit there thinking, "If ONLY I had more
resolution, more clarity, more pixels, THEN someone will be able to see my
photography for how great it is! And then so will I!"

If you can't find the quality that you need in the subject and composition then
no amount of pixels in the universe will ever save you.

"All art is knowing when to stop."  -  Toni Morrison

It would be interesting to test the "least needed" limit as to what others might
find as admirable photography. Can it be done with just 2 pixels of the right
hues? Just one? I daresay I might need at least 180x120 to pull it off. I'm not
that confident. Then again, some icons I've designed in the past with dimensions
of less than 20 pixels per side were fairly attractive.

Resolution means nothing without it being able to convey something of
interminable value.
John Navas - 22 Nov 2007 16:39 GMT
>> I was rather startled to discover some years ago that I couldn't see
>> any failures in sharpness or detail on A4 prints from my 3MP digital
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>then again, I am clearly a lousy photographer trying to justify my
>equipment).

Chris has rediscovered a truth that rocked the photo world years ago
when Luminous Landscape demonstrated that digital 8x10 prints from the
3.1 MP Canon D30 were actually better than the best high-resolution
scans of 35 mm film, proving in the process that 3.1 MP is all that's
needed for great 8x10 prints.

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David J Taylor - 22 Nov 2007 07:52 GMT
[]
> Only if you're dot peeping the print.  Print quality is subject to
> viewing conditions and viewing distance.  An 8x12 print under normal
> viewing conditions and at normal viewing distance of 22" needs only
> 156 PPI for excellent results, which is only 3 MP.  See
> <http://www.photokaboom.com/photography/learn/printing/resolution/1_which_resolut
ion_print_size_viewing_distance.htm
>

John,

I make it just 2.3MP.  However, I find that holding a print in my hand to
view, I have more like 15 inches away than 22 inches, so something nearer
to 5MP would be required (using the same criteria).  In practice, on an
A4-sized print (297 x 210mm), 3.3MP is good, but substantially more pixels
(e.g. 6MP) will look a little sharper.

Cheers,
David
John Navas - 22 Nov 2007 08:57 GMT
>[]
>> Only if you're dot peeping the print.  Print quality is subject to
>> viewing conditions and viewing distance.  An 8x12 print under normal
>> viewing conditions and at normal viewing distance of 22" needs only
>> 156 PPI for excellent results, which is only 3 MP.  See
>> <http://www.photokaboom.com/photography/learn/printing/resolution/1_which_resolut
ion_print_size_viewing_distance.htm
>

>I make it just 2.3MP.  However, I find that holding a print in my hand to
>view, I have more like 15 inches away than 22 inches, so something nearer
>to 5MP would be required (using the same criteria).

14" is indeed considered inspection distance, but not normal viewing
distance for anything bigger than 4x6.  If you are going to view such
prints at less than normal viewing distance, then you will of course
need proportionally more pixels.

>In practice, on an
>A4-sized print (297 x 210mm), 3.3MP is good, but substantially more pixels
>(e.g. 6MP) will look a little sharper.

That's 8.3" x 11.7", roughly the same as 8x10, for which the normal
viewing distance is 19" and the needed PPI is 181, or about 3.1 MP.
Given the limits of human vision, more (6) MP would only be sharper at
closer viewing distance and/or under ideal viewing conditions.

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Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)

David J Taylor - 22 Nov 2007 09:19 GMT
> On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 07:52:55 GMT, "David J Taylor"
[]
>> In practice, on an
>> A4-sized print (297 x 210mm), 3.3MP is good, but substantially more
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Given the limits of human vision, more (6) MP would only be sharper at
> closer viewing distance and/or under ideal viewing conditions.

Agreed.

If you scale the viewing distance to the print size, it's expected that
the resolution requirement remains the same at, from what you've said, at
about 3MP.  However, with bigger prints, people do tend to look at them
relatively closer than for small prints (e.g. holding each at arm's
length), and therefore expect a greater resolution - 6MP or better.

Cheers,
David
John Navas - 22 Nov 2007 16:41 GMT
>> On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 07:52:55 GMT, "David J Taylor"
>[]
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>relatively closer than for small prints (e.g. holding each at arm's
>length), and therefore expect a greater resolution - 6MP or better.

Luminous Landscape rocked the photo world years ago when it demonstrated
that digital 8x10 prints from the 3.1 MP Canon D30 were actually better
than prints from high-resolution scans of the best 35 mm film, proving
in the process that 3.1 MP is all that's needed for great 8x10 prints.

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John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)

nospam - 22 Nov 2007 21:03 GMT
> Luminous Landscape rocked the photo world years ago when it demonstrated
> that digital 8x10 prints from the 3.1 MP Canon D30 were actually better
> than prints from high-resolution scans of the best 35 mm film, proving
> in the process that 3.1 MP is all that's needed for great 8x10 prints.

that claim was very controversial back then and discounted by numerous
people.  it also depends on which film.  roger clark's analysis shows
otherwise, with even 6 mp cameras better than some films and worse than
others:

<http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/film.vs.digital.summary1.html>
John Navas - 22 Nov 2007 21:27 GMT
>> Luminous Landscape rocked the photo world years ago when it demonstrated
>> that digital 8x10 prints from the 3.1 MP Canon D30 were actually better
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>that claim was very controversial back then and discounted by numerous
>people.

It's actually come to be widely accepted -- it can take time for people
to accept change, but real evidence has a tendency to eventually win out
over faith and supposition.

>it also depends on which film.

The film used by Luminous Landscape was Provia 100F, "arguably the
finest grained, sharpest ISO 100 speed film available".

>roger clark's analysis shows
>otherwise, ...

Doesn't speak to the same issue, references Luminous Landscape, and
doesn't change the essential point of "3.1 MP being all that's needed
for great 8x10 prints".

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Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)

nospam - 23 Nov 2007 06:57 GMT
> >> Luminous Landscape rocked the photo world years ago when it demonstrated
> >> that digital 8x10 prints from the 3.1 MP Canon D30 were actually better
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> to accept change, but real evidence has a tendency to eventually win out
> over faith and supposition.

actually it hasn't come to be widely accepted.  what *has* been
accepted is that 6 mp cameras are 'about' as good as typical films,
with better fine grain films needing even higher megapixel counts to
match.  

also, luminous landscape's d30 versus film comparison had different
fields of view in the two images, which gives the camera with the
cropped field of view (the d30) a huge advantage.  extrapolating the
d30's 3 megapixels out to match a full frame field of view gives just
under 8 megapixels, which is consistent with other comparisons i've
seen.

<http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/d30/d30_vs_film.shtml>

> >roger clark's analysis shows
> >otherwise, ...
>
> Doesn't speak to the same issue, references Luminous Landscape, and
> doesn't change the essential point of "3.1 MP being all that's needed
> for great 8x10 prints".

it does speak to exactly the same issue and roger estimates provia with
a roughly 7-12 megapixel equivalent (figure 1) and 7 megapixels in the
table further down on the page, and those numbers even agree with what
luminous landscape found, had that comparison normalized the fields of
view.
John Navas - 23 Nov 2007 08:38 GMT
>> It's actually come to be widely accepted -- it can take time for people
>> to accept change, but real evidence has a tendency to eventually win out
>> over faith and supposition.
>
>actually it hasn't come to be widely accepted.

Any proof?  Or do we just have to take your word on that?

>also, luminous landscape's d30 versus film comparison had different
>fields of view in the two images, which gives the camera with the
>cropped field of view (the d30) a huge advantage.  ...

Not true, as the article makes clear.  

>> >roger clark's analysis shows
>> >otherwise, ...
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>luminous landscape found, had that comparison normalized the fields of
>view.

Not true.

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Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)

nospam - 23 Nov 2007 09:55 GMT
> >also, luminous landscape's d30 versus film comparison had different
> >fields of view in the two images, which gives the camera with the
> >cropped field of view (the d30) a huge advantage.  ...
>
> Not true, as the article makes clear.  

ok, i did miss the part where he says he changed the zoom to match,
however, the film image has a noticably larger field of view than the
d30, so he didn't do a very good job of it.

he also says that the provia image is slightly taller because it has a
different aspect ratio as the d30.  canon's specs say the d30 sensor is
22.7 x 15.1mm, which is a ratio of 1.5033.  thus, if the film had the
same aspect ratio as the d30, it would be 23.95mm instead of 24mm.
that's less than half a percent difference and hardly noticable.  

<http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/dslr/data/1995-/2000_eos-d30.
html?lang=us&categ=crn&page=1995-&p=2>
Randy Berbaum - 22 Nov 2007 09:28 GMT
>>In practice, on an
>>A4-sized print (297 x 210mm), 3.3MP is good, but substantially more pixels
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Given the limits of human vision, more (6) MP would only be sharper at
> closer viewing distance and/or under ideal viewing conditions.

Remember, that with anything that is as subjective as photography, each
person will have their own criteria as to what is "good enough". Around
here, we have heard from those who would see an 8x10 print of a scenery shot
of a small town taken from a mountain side and want to be able to use a
magnifying glass to read the headline on a newspaper being read by a man on
his front porch at the far side of town (right?). For those, a 100 gigapixel
image would be barely acceptable. For others a photo of grandpa and the
grand kids playing at the park hanging on the livingroom wall is good if you
can recognize the people in the picture from 8' away. For these a 1 to 1.5
mp image will do fine. With such subjective differences it is very difficult
to put hard numbers to anything that will satisfy everyone. Even if we limit
discussion to a specific set of circumstances such as print size, viewing
distance, etc there will be those who will be very happy with 1mp image, and
others who will say 6mp doesn't present enough sharpness.

Then if you add the problem of subject, things get even more confusing. As
one person mentioned, some "modern art" images could be very easily captured
with 30 to 40 mp, while some highly detailed images are pressing the imaging
limits with 10-12mp.

This is why I (for one) advocate the right tool for the right job. If you
are intending to shoot something that is more of a memory enhancer (such as
the Grandpa and kids photo) you can use a lower resolution camera that fits
in a pocket easily and is so easy to use that you can almost "think" the
photo onto the memory. When you are intending to shoot something for showing
off, a higher res camera with many manual settings is the right tool. And if
your intent is to publish or document some scene where you now or someday in
the future may want to examine almost invisible fine details, the very best
equipment available is the way to go. Each of these uses is a totally valid
use and will somewhat define what is "good enough". There is no "best
camera" or "best resolution", or "best technique" that will cover absolutely
every need and desire.

JMHO

Randy
Chris Malcolm - 22 Nov 2007 11:06 GMT
>>[]
>>> Only if you're dot peeping the print.  Print quality is subject to
>>> viewing conditions and viewing distance.  An 8x12 print under normal
>>> viewing conditions and at normal viewing distance of 22" needs only
>>> 156 PPI for excellent results, which is only 3 MP.  See
>>> <http://www.photokaboom.com/photography/learn/printing/resolution/1_which_resolut
ion_print_size_viewing_distance.htm
>

>>I make it just 2.3MP.  However, I find that holding a print in my hand to
>>view, I have more like 15 inches away than 22 inches, so something nearer
>>to 5MP would be required (using the same criteria).

> 14" is indeed considered inspection distance, but not normal viewing
> distance for anything bigger than 4x6.  If you are going to view such
> prints at less than normal viewing distance, then you will of course
> need proportionally more pixels.

>>In practice, on an
>>A4-sized print (297 x 210mm), 3.3MP is good, but substantially more pixels
>>(e.g. 6MP) will look a little sharper.

> That's 8.3" x 11.7", roughly the same as 8x10, for which the normal
> viewing distance is 19" and the needed PPI is 181, or about 3.1 MP.

I wonder if that calculation lay behind the oddly specific 3.1MP of my
Canon Powershot A300? I certainly couldn't spot any failures of detail
or sharpness in A4 prints from that at two feet. At one foot, however,
I could discern the digitisation, and at six inches it was annoyingly
obstrusive.

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Chris Malcolm        cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk              DoD #205
IPAB,  Informatics,  JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

David J Taylor - 22 Nov 2007 11:22 GMT
So how is it that images on my 13 x 10.5 inch display, with all of 1.3MP,
appear perfectly sharp when viewed at 21 inches?  Something to do with the
pixels being sharp?

<G>

David