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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / Digital Photo / October 2007

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DSLR v. 35mm SLR Question

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Jim McDonald - 29 Oct 2007 00:27 GMT
I've had a COSINA 35mm SLR for about ten years and IMHO it takes great
pics. I regularly enlarge to A3 and this cam cuts it exceedingly well.

So what would I have to spend to get the same quality from a digital
SLR? Are digital SLRs as good as 35mm SLRs? Or is that some way off?

If not - any examples of DSLR camera models that would be compatible
quality with your average 35mm SLR, like my COSINA?

TIA.
Kinon O'Cann - 29 Oct 2007 01:03 GMT
> I've had a COSINA 35mm SLR for about ten years and IMHO it takes great
> pics. I regularly enlarge to A3 and this cam cuts it exceedingly well.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> If not - any examples of DSLR camera models that would be compatible
> quality with your average 35mm SLR, like my COSINA?

Answers will range all over the place, and there is no direct comparison.
However, based on your description and the results you expect, any good
entry level DSLR, like the Nikon D40x or Canon Rebel XTi will produce the
results you want, or better. They work differently, and you'll likely
experience a learning curve, so be patient.

Lastly, you can expect much better results at higher ISOs than your film
camera. Modern sensors are nothing short of amazing at higher speeds, and
cameras like the Rebel XTi can produce excellent prints even at ISO 1600.
Bill Tuthill - 29 Oct 2007 17:30 GMT
> Lastly, you can expect much better results at higher ISOs than your film
> camera. Modern sensors are nothing short of amazing at higher speeds, and
> cameras like the Rebel XTi can produce excellent prints even at ISO 1600.

Except for dynamic range, which still sux compared to negative film.
If you care about highlight detail (clouds, whitewater) look at Fuji S5.
dj_nme - 30 Oct 2007 00:43 GMT
>>Lastly, you can expect much better results at higher ISOs than your film
>>camera. Modern sensors are nothing short of amazing at higher speeds, and
>>cameras like the Rebel XTi can produce excellent prints even at ISO 1600.
>
> Except for dynamic range, which still sux compared to negative film.
> If you care about highlight detail (clouds, whitewater) look at Fuji S5.

Or, shoot in RAW and process it to capture highlight and shadow detail
that would otherwise be lost when using JPEG.
Bill Tuthill - 30 Oct 2007 01:54 GMT
>>>Lastly, you can expect much better results at higher ISOs than your film
>>>camera. Modern sensors are nothing short of amazing at higher speeds, and
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Or, shoot in RAW and process it to capture highlight and shadow detail
> that would otherwise be lost when using JPEG.

That only provides one extra stop of dynamic range according to
dpreview.com, <IRONY> a noted authority.</IRONY>

Despite aforementioned noted authority saying DSLRs have 8 stops range,
most real photographers feel they have about the same as slide film,
5 stops.  Negative film has about 10 stops, sometimes more.
nospam - 30 Oct 2007 02:23 GMT
> Despite aforementioned noted authority saying DSLRs have 8 stops range,
> most real photographers feel they have about the same as slide film,
> 5 stops.  Negative film has about 10 stops, sometimes more.

only 5 stops??  i question how 'most real photographers' are processing
their digital images.
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 30 Oct 2007 03:12 GMT
>>>> Lastly, you can expect much better results at higher ISOs than your film
>>>> camera. Modern sensors are nothing short of amazing at higher speeds, and
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> most real photographers feel they have about the same as slide film,
> 5 stops.  Negative film has about 10 stops, sometimes more.

Here is a partially completed study that quantifies print film,
and digital with raw and jpeg.

http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/exposure_latitude-1

It shows that digital raw has greater dynamic range than
comparable ISO print film, but the range is shifted to the
lower end.  It also shows how digital has a higher signal-to-noise
ratio, and how raw is better than jpeg.

This page also shows similar results:

http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/dynamicrange2

For the OP, see:
http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/film.vs.digital.summary1.html

Roger
Bill Tuthill - 30 Oct 2007 18:08 GMT
> Here is a partially completed study that quantifies print film,
> and digital with raw and jpeg.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> lower end.  It also shows how digital has a higher signal-to-noise
> ratio, and how raw is better than jpeg.

Very interesting study.  Why did you choose Kodak Gold 200
as the print film to compare?  That has less exposure latitude
than some other print films.  Did you test GB-6 or GB-7?
I have not tried GB-7; maybe it has more latitude than GB-6.

Wow, RAW has 5 stops wider latitude than JPEG at 90%, and
4 stops wider latitude at 20%, if I'm reading your graph correctly.
so <IRONY>noted authority Dpreview.com is proven correct again</IRONY>.

Too bad my digicam doesn't do RAW!  It is slow enough with JPEG, anyway.
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios - 30 Oct 2007 18:13 GMT
> >>>> Lastly, you can expect much better results at higher ISOs than your film
> >>>> camera. Modern sensors are nothing short of amazing at higher speeds, and
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> lower end.  It also shows how digital has a higher signal-to-noise
> ratio, and how raw is better than jpeg.

And higher quantum efficiency.(According to wikipedia, film has 2%,while CCD
sensors have 70%).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge-coupled_device
> This page also shows similar results:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Roger

--
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
major in electrical engineering
mechanized infantry reservist
hordad AT otenet DOT gr
Don Stauffer in Minnesota - 30 Oct 2007 15:05 GMT
> >>>Lastly, you can expect much better results at higher ISOs than your film
> >>>camera. Modern sensors are nothing short of amazing at higher speeds, and
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> most real photographers feel they have about the same as slide film,
> 5 stops.  Negative film has about 10 stops, sometimes more.

Depends a LOT on the particular film.  density range and the shape of
the characteristic curve was one of the big differences from one film
to another.

Remember, too, prints only have about a 50:1 range :-)
Bill Tuthill - 30 Oct 2007 18:14 GMT
> Remember, too, prints only have about a 50:1 range :-)

That doesn't sound right.  Several web sources day
dynamic range of a CRT computer monitor is 90:1 or less,
whereas prints are ~ 40:1 depending on contrast level.
Bill Tuthill - 30 Oct 2007 18:22 GMT
>> Remember, too, prints only have about a 50:1 range :-)
>
> That doesn't sound right.  Several web sources day
> dynamic range of a CRT computer monitor is 90:1 or less,
> whereas prints are ~ 40:1 depending on contrast level.

"Negative films can handle a brightness range of 200:1 or more,
slide films and photographic papers are limited to around 40:1.
(source Eastman Kodak Corp)"  --Steve Levine
http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00E3ff
acl - 30 Oct 2007 15:05 GMT
> >>>Lastly, you can expect much better results at higher ISOs than your film
> >>>camera. Modern sensors are nothing short of amazing at higher speeds, and
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> most real photographers feel they have about the same as slide film,
> 5 stops.  Negative film has about 10 stops, sometimes more.

Well, even ignoring the link Roger gives, when someone tells me that
there are only 5 useful stops in an ISO 100 (for a dslr, at least, or
something with that sensor size), I have to ask: have you actually
tried it?

Because even if I shoot a jpeg and do no processing with my D200, it
has easily more than 5 stops of easily visible DR. In fact, I just did
this: I spotmetered from a white piece of paper; at +2 stops (or 1/3
more or so), it becomes overexposed. I expose it 5 stops less than
this point (ie -3 stops from metered); looking at the camera LCD, I
can not only see the piece of paper, but easily read what's written on
it...

And I routinely use raw to take shots with 8 or 9 stops of DR (but
that needs some work in processing; in jpeg, my camera completely
desaturates all colours in the shadows so you can't lift them too
much).
David J. Littleboy - 30 Oct 2007 01:58 GMT
>>>Lastly, you can expect much better results at higher ISOs than your film
>>>camera. Modern sensors are nothing short of amazing at higher speeds, and
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Or, shoot in RAW and process it to capture highlight and shadow detail
> that would otherwise be lost when using JPEG.

Exactly.

With raw capture, the 5D at ISO 400 holds detail in zones I and IX, which is
two more zones than you need for the zone system, in which zone I is true
black and zone IX pure white. (More accurately, it's enough to support up to
the equivalent of N-2 developing.)

Here's the proof.
http://www.pbase.com/davidjl/image/76131098/original
http://www.pbase.com/davidjl/image/76131302/original

But color negative film can be overexposed 3 or 4 (or more!) stops and still
produce a decent print. C41 is seriously amazing.

Of course, there's no such thing as a print that really shows all nine zones
of the zone system (outside the very best of the B&W art prints, but we're
not in that world). So the question then arises as to whether it is
significant that color negative film can capture serious detail in zones X,
XI, and XII. When you make a print, the high end all gets mushed into one or
two zones. So if you've got a seven zone print (even this is serious
dreaming, but lets pretend), a correctly exposed 5D image compressed so that
the top end lives in zones VI and VII (here zone II is black and zone VIII
is pure white), you've got something like 4 or 5 stops of detail from the
subject compressed into zones VI and VII and everything above that in zone
VIII. Is that going to be all that different from a color negative print in
which seven stops of detail from the subject are compressed into zones VI
and VII?

I doubt it. (Actually, you'd probably prefer the 5D print, since the detail
would be useful. With the 5D, I find I need fairly heavy-handed sharpening
to bring out detail in the brighter zones. (Grumble: Lightroom has a trick
for masking edges, but it does the opposite of what I want. I hate halos,
but I like textures, so I want to hide the edges from the sharpening and
only sharpen the textures. Grumble.))

And I suspect that even the better 4/3 cameras at ISO 100 will do nearly as
well, if not just as well, as the 5D at ISO 400.

(If the zone stuff above didn't make any sense, "The Confused Photographer's
Guide to On-Camera Spotmetering" is an excellent (and basic) introduction to
zone system concepts. I also like "The Zone System for 35mm Photographers",
since it describes the nine zones of the zone system well.)

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
acl - 30 Oct 2007 15:16 GMT
> (Grumble: Lightroom has a trick
> for masking edges, but it does the opposite of what I want. I hate halos,
> but I like textures, so I want to hide the edges from the sharpening and
> only sharpen the textures. Grumble.))

I can suggest a few things: Focal Blade is a plugin for photoshop that
does quite a bit (I don't use it, I just have the demo and it looks
great; but I don't know it very well). Focus Magic is a pluging/
standalone application that uses some sort of deconvolution approach
(I don't know for what kernel or anything else); it is great for
sharpening, but not very tunable. It's not too expensive (but not
free!). Finally, there are some excellent actions at
thelightsright.com; they're free. There are actions for sharpening
(basically, similar to photokit sharpener, but, in my opinion, with
better masking, free, and without their authors and their friends
behaving arrogantly in forums); also for masking (extremely effective
and useful!).

But if you really want to do everything in lightroom only, I guess
you're stuck (and I always have the same problem as you, although I
don't use lightroom: I want to sharpen textures but not edges).

Focal Blade is probably the fastest way to get what you want, but I
don't have the time to master yet another program... And don't want to
pay for it, since I can already do what I want with my own actions.
But I'd love to be able to do this with some sort of real-time preview
of the effect.

> And I suspect that even the better 4/3 cameras at ISO 100 will do nearly as
> well, if not just as well, as the 5D at ISO 400.

But... but... how about their INSANELY SMALL PIXELS?!
nospam - 29 Oct 2007 01:10 GMT
> I've had a COSINA 35mm SLR for about ten years and IMHO it takes great
> pics. I regularly enlarge to A3 and this cam cuts it exceedingly well.
>
> So what would I have to spend to get the same quality from a digital
> SLR? Are digital SLRs as good as 35mm SLRs? Or is that some way off?

they have surpassed film slrs for quite some time.

> If not - any examples of DSLR camera models that would be compatible
> quality with your average 35mm SLR, like my COSINA?

for a new camera, about $500 or so for a nikon d40 or a pentax k100d
(which has built-in image stabilization), including a kit lens.  for
slightly less money, the pentax k110d might still be available (i think
it was discontinued), but it lacks the stabilization.  and don't rule
out used cameras -- there's plenty of good deals there too.

of course, you can certainly spend more money than that, depending on
what features you want.  don't forget that although the price of a
digital slr may be initially higher than a film slr, there is no
ongoing cost for film and processing, and in the long term, it is
actually much cheaper for digital.  you may also find that you will
shoot substantially more photos than you did with film because it costs
nothing to take a picture.
David J. Littleboy - 29 Oct 2007 02:30 GMT
> I've had a COSINA 35mm SLR for about ten years and IMHO it takes great
> pics. I regularly enlarge to A3 and this cam cuts it exceedingly well.
>
> So what would I have to spend to get the same quality from a digital
> SLR? Are digital SLRs as good as 35mm SLRs? Or is that some way off?

Most people who acquired a 6MP dSLR stopped using their film SLR. If you are
making A3 prints and looking closely, you'd probably be happier with an 8 or
10MP camera. (If you splurge and get the Canon 5D, you'll think you died and
went to heaven).

> If not - any examples of DSLR camera models that would be compatible
> quality with your average 35mm SLR, like my COSINA?

DON'T CHUCK THOSE LENSES!!!!!!!!!!!

Cosina has made some of the best 35mm lenses in the history of photography:
both the Contax G lenses were and some of the new Zeiss Ikon lenses are made
by Cosina, and reviews consistently find them to be better than the
equivalent Leica lenses.

(Cosina has also made some funky lenses, of course.)

Depending on the mount, your SLR lenses most likely can be used on Canon
dSLRs, and there might be adapters for other dSLRs as well.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
ray - 29 Oct 2007 05:05 GMT
> I've had a COSINA 35mm SLR for about ten years and IMHO it takes great
> pics. I regularly enlarge to A3 and this cam cuts it exceedingly well.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> TIA.

I'm not going to even touch that question, but I will tell you that MPs
are greatly overrated. I've seen some 1mp pictures printed to 8x10 that
were excellent - YMMV, and it's kind of up to you to see what you need.
You might want to try some of the excellent high zoom EVFs before you
decide to go DSLR - for one thing you get a lot of zoom for the money. I
have several requirements centering on portability which prohibit an slr
for much of my shooting and I'm quite fond of the Kodak P850 I picked up
last fall - around $250 with printer dock from the Kodak online store
(refurb). The P series has been discontinued now, but you'll still see
some there from time to time.
Stefan Patric - 29 Oct 2007 06:33 GMT
> I've had a COSINA 35mm SLR for about ten years and IMHO it takes great
> pics. I regularly enlarge to A3 and this cam cuts it exceedingly well.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> TIA.

Here we go, again.  You've just opened a mighty can of worms with those
questions.  And you'll get no definitive answers to any of them.

Digital is an entirely different beast from film.  The best option is to
consider a digital camera as just another tool in your camera bag, and
not as a replacement for your film cameras.  Each has its own unique
qualities, both advantageous and disadvantageous, to the creative
process.  Let your own unique shooting requirements be your guide as to
which digital camera is best suited to your situation.  Keep your
Cosina.  I still use my old Nikon manuals as well as several DSLRs (2
Canons and one Nikon) depending on the requirements of the job.

Stef
David J Taylor - 29 Oct 2007 07:29 GMT
[]
> Here we go, again.  You've just opened a mighty can of worms with
> those questions.  And you'll get no definitive answers to any of them.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Stef

After getting digital ten years ago (a Nikon Coolpix 900), I realised I
hadn't touched my Nikon film SLR for a year or two, and fortunately I
remembered to take the batteries out of the camera and accessories.
Several years later, still not having touched the film camera, I sold the
lot (cameras, lenses etc.).  Even more recently I bought a DSLR, and
today's lenses are so much lighter, more versatile, and better performing
that I don't regret selling the old stuff.

Cheers,
David
Summer Wind - 29 Oct 2007 14:29 GMT
> []
>> Here we go, again.  You've just opened a mighty can of worms with
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> today's lenses are so much lighter, more versatile, and better performing
> that I don't regret selling the old stuff.

Low cost digital cameras have improved to the point where it's getting
harder and harder for film enthusiasts to be enthusiastic.  I still think
that convenience drives most people to dump film in favor of digital and
that image quality is a secondary consideration unless you are doing
enlargements like the OP.

SW
Fred - 29 Oct 2007 15:34 GMT
>> []
>>> Here we go, again.  You've just opened a mighty can of worms with
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> that image quality is a secondary consideration unless you are doing
> enlargements like the OP.

I'll second that.

Being a former long time 35mm SLR enthusiast (several decades!), I finally
took the plunge into digital a few years ago, and bought a Canon Powershot.
Now having got so used to the convenience of always having a compact camera
available wherever I go, I wouldn't contemplate going back to the "good old
days" of lugging all that camera gear around again. Admittedly I'm not
getting the same absolute quality as my old SLRs, I have a couple of high
end prosumer cameras for that event, I'm finding it so liberating always
having a camera on hand, plus it's also so much more discrete than a large
SLR.
Summer Wind - 29 Oct 2007 15:56 GMT
>> Low cost digital cameras have improved to the point where it's getting
>> harder and harder for film enthusiasts to be enthusiastic.  I still think
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> so liberating always having a camera on hand, plus it's also so much more
> discrete than a large SLR.

I have a Canon S3 IS that I bought primarily for its megazoom capabilities,
and I quickly became enamored of digital's instant gratification and freedom
from film & processing costs.  At the moment, I don't have a great deal of
time to shoot anything, film or digital.  When I have more leisure time,
I'll no doubt get a DSLR.  In the meantime, my Elan 7N does just fine for
the limited amount of shooting I'm doing.

SW
Don Stauffer in Minnesota - 29 Oct 2007 14:49 GMT
> I've had a COSINA 35mm SLR for about ten years and IMHO it takes great
> pics. I regularly enlarge to A3 and this cam cuts it exceedingly well.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> TIA.

This depends on what and how you shoot with your film camera.  Mainly
it is a question of the film and developer you use.  Do you shoot
mainly Pan X (monochrome) and do your own dilute high accutance
developing? Or do you shoot color print films of high speed variety.
The difference in resolution between these extremes is very great.

Digital has better dynamic range than printing paper, so the dynamic
range of the resulting print is the same whether shot on film or
digital.  Color accuracy is better on digital than with some films.

Resolution is a big factor.  But again unless you shoot fine grain
monochrome, you are likely to find any digital with more than about
5MP will give you good results.
Marvin - 29 Oct 2007 17:12 GMT
> I've had a COSINA 35mm SLR for about ten years and IMHO it takes great
> pics. I regularly enlarge to A3 and this cam cuts it exceedingly well.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> TIA.

A digital SLR with a good lens and at least a 12 MP sensor
will match the resolution of 35 mm film.  As others have
pointed out, the digicam is better in some other ways.  For
one thing, you have better control of the color than with film.

But you should think of digicams as a new medium, not an
exact replacement for film photography.
Henk & Marga Jamin - 29 Oct 2007 22:07 GMT
I have always used Nikon SLRs with my favourite films Agfa 100 and Fuji
800 ASA
in its many incarnations.  Pretty well had figured out digital had to hit
32MP before
being as good, but... after my wife gave me a Casio 6MP P&S and saw what
that did,
I bit the bullet and bought a Nikon D70s.

Hate to say it, but there really is no going back, other than for very
special occasions...

> I've had a COSINA 35mm SLR for about ten years and IMHO it takes great
> pics. I regularly enlarge to A3 and this cam cuts it exceedingly well.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> TIA.
Henk & Marga Jamin - 29 Oct 2007 22:08 GMT
I have always used Nikon SLRs with my favourite films Agfa 100 and Fuji
800 ASA
in its many incarnations.  Pretty well had figured out digital had to hit
32MP before
being as good, but... after my wife gave me a Casio 6MP P&S and saw what
that did,
I bit the bullet and bought a Nikon D70s.

Hate to say it, but there really is no going back, other than for very
special occasions...

> I've had a COSINA 35mm SLR for about ten years and IMHO it takes great
> pics. I regularly enlarge to A3 and this cam cuts it exceedingly well.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> TIA.
 
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