Photo Forum / Digital Photography / Digital Photo / June 2007
Hybrio batteries?
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Clive - 28 Jun 2007 09:59 GMT Has anyone done any comparisons with hybrio type batteries against other types?
Thanks
Clive
gerrit - 28 Jun 2007 10:49 GMT > Has anyone done any comparisons with hybrio type batteries against other > types? > > Thanks > > Clive Have a look here.
http://www.users.on.net/~mhains/Reviews.html
SMS - 28 Jun 2007 15:20 GMT >> Has anyone done any comparisons with hybrio type batteries against other >> types? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > http://www.users.on.net/~mhains/Reviews.html So they're slightly less capacity than the eneloop, yet more expensive!
Thomas T. Veldhouse - 28 Jun 2007 15:50 GMT >> http://www.users.on.net/~mhains/Reviews.html > > So they're slightly less capacity than the eneloop, yet more expensive! So, how did you come up with that tidbit?
Sanyo eneloop [2000AA] 12th charge 216.91 mins
UNiROSS Hybrio 2100AA, 12th charge 241.5 mins
Did you somehow determine this from visually inspecting the voltage or temperature graphs?
 Signature Thomas T. Veldhouse
Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow they may make it illegal.
SMS - 28 Jun 2007 16:56 GMT >>> http://www.users.on.net/~mhains/Reviews.html >> So they're slightly less capacity than the eneloop, yet more expensive! [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > UNiROSS Hybrio 2100AA, 12th charge > 241.5 mins My mistake, I was looking at the "out of box Hybrio" versus the 12th charge eneloop. Sorry.
The Hybrio's do appear to be more expensive. $20 for 8 Eneloops from Amazon, versus 14.12 for four Hybrio's from Amazon.
Thomas T. Veldhouse - 28 Jun 2007 18:25 GMT >>>> http://www.users.on.net/~mhains/Reviews.html >>> So they're slightly less capacity than the eneloop, yet more expensive! [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > The Hybrio's do appear to be more expensive. $20 for 8 Eneloops from > Amazon, versus 14.12 for four Hybrio's from Amazon. The Hybrios are made by Spectrum, as are the Rayovac Hybrid. So far, I have had good luck with the Rayovac Hybrid and they can be purchased at Target and Walmart for about $8.99 for four AA or AAA.
 Signature Thomas T. Veldhouse
Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow they may make it illegal.
ASAAR - 28 Jun 2007 20:02 GMT >>> So, how did you come up with that tidbit? >>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > had good luck with the Rayovac Hybrid and they can be purchased at Target and > Walmart for about $8.99 for four AA or AAA. Then there's a slight possibility that the Hybrids are the same as the Hybrios. They both can be rated higher than 2,100 mAh or much lower than 2,000 mAh depending on the manufacturer's choice of the load used to determine the cell's capacity rating. That said, the Hybrios are rated as having 5% greater capacity than the Eneloops, yet they require 11% more time to charge, suggesting that the 2,100 mAh rating may be conservative, Eneloop's 2,000 mAh rating is optimistic, or quite possibly, sample variation is skewing the results, as it is very close to the 5% to 10% expected variation mentioned for Table 1, where it says :
> any battery set within 5-10% of each other can be considered > as equal in performance. The author may know something about batteries, but either doesn't know much about cameras, or the "Methodology" section was written more than a couple of years ago. It says :
> Alkaline batteries are not suitable for digital cameras as the power > is demanded faster than what an alkaline battery can deliver. yet even though he tested the batteries at a far greater load than today's cameras draw (5 ohms), the 'Doc' was surprised at how long alkalines lasted compared to NiMH batteries, 75 minutes for the Duracell alkalines vs. 133 minutes for the Sanyo Eneloops. Compare these times with a modern camera. Canon's A630/A640, using alkaline batteries, can shoot up to 1,200 images and has a playback time on the LCD display of 20 hours. Alkalines sure don't seem unsuitable for use in Canon's A Series cameras, nor in my comparable Fuji camera, nor in several Kodak and Nikon models.
Thomas T. Veldhouse - 28 Jun 2007 20:30 GMT > Then there's a slight possibility that the Hybrids are the same as > the Hybrios. They both can be rated higher than 2,100 mAh or much [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > results, as it is very close to the 5% to 10% expected variation > mentioned for Table 1, where it says : There is a good chance they are identical cells. I think most name brand batteries in the US use a IEC capacity measurement to determine capacity. I did this same test on the 12 Rayovac Hybrid batteries that I own and all of them were above 2100mAh except one. Many were above 2150mAh. In contrast, I also own 12 Sanyo Eneloop and ALL of them were rated above 2000mAh and two of them were over 2100mAh. As far as charge time between the Rayovac and Eneloop batteries; I simply have not noticed any difference, then again, I wasn't looking for the 11% ;-)
 Signature Thomas T. Veldhouse
Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow they may make it illegal.
Ron Hunter - 29 Jun 2007 09:28 GMT >>>> So, how did you come up with that tidbit? >>>> [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > for use in Canon's A Series cameras, nor in my comparable Fuji > camera, nor in several Kodak and Nikon models. If a set of AA alkalines yield 1200 pictures on these cameras, one might well install a set of lithium disposables and be fixed for the life of the camera. Grin. I installed two lithium disposables in my wife's Kodak C743 in December, and I am still waiting for them to die before installing a shiny new set of Eneloop batteries in it.
ASAAR - 29 Jun 2007 13:50 GMT > If a set of AA alkalines yield 1200 pictures on these cameras, one might > well install a set of lithium disposables and be fixed for the life of > the camera. Grin. We wish. :) Actually, that's not as true as it may seem. Lithium batteries don't really have a much greater energy capacity. Unlike alkalines, they don't waste much of it in internal heating. So the cameras that are old and have much greater current draws should get much better battery life from lithium batteries. The ones that are very efficient and get really great battery life from alkalines shouldn't do too much better with lithium batteries. But that's not always the case. The reason here would be cameras that weren't really designed for alkaline batteries in the first place. Because a significant percentage of alkaline battery energy is delivered at fairly low voltages, if a camera is designed to power off at relatively high voltages, lithium, NiCd and NiMH will do well and alkalines poorly.
Contrasting examples are Nikon's SB-600 and SB-800 speedlights. The SB-600 is good for 200 flashes from four alkaline batteries and 400 flashes from lithium batteries. One would expect the higher power SB-800 to favor lithium batteries even more, but Nikon rates it at 130 flashes from four alkalines and 170 flashes from four lithium batteries. It could probably close the gap even more, but to get more than 130 flashes, the recycling time would probably get pretty lengthy. Nikon probably couldn't get more than 170 flashes from the lithiums because due to their higher voltage curve and steep drop at life-end, they were probably completely exhausted at the point of 170 flashes.
> I installed two lithium disposables in my wife's Kodak C743 in December, > and I am still waiting for them to die before installing a shiny new set > of Eneloop batteries in it. Well, just remember that when you finally install them, it's probably wise to recharge them yearly when you change your smoke alarm batteries, whether the Eneloops need charging or not. <g> Actually, while the Eneloops will probably give you slightly fewer shots per charge than you'll get from the lithium batteries, they might produce slightly faster flash recycle times. You might want to test this with a shot or two while the C743 is still using the lithium batteries and then compare after the Eneloops are installed.
Thomas T. Veldhouse - 29 Jun 2007 14:20 GMT > Because a significant percentage of alkaline battery energy is > delivered at fairly low voltages, if a camera is designed to power > off at relatively high voltages, lithium, NiCd and NiMH will do well > and alkalines poorly. Actually, it is current related. The larger the current draw, the lower the voltage maintained by the cell; alkalines do the poorest, followed by NiMH, NiCd and finally Li (1.5V). I am not really sure where LiIon would fall in that ranking, but I suspect between NiMH and NiCd. That is why devices that draw high currents will indicate that a set of alkaline batteries are dead when there is in fact significant capacity left; they draw a high current and drop the voltage of the battery down below 1.0V.
> Well, just remember that when you finally install them, it's > probably wise to recharge them yearly when you change your smoke [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > to test this with a shot or two while the C743 is still using the > lithium batteries and then compare after the Eneloops are installed. Keep some standard high capacity 2700mAh NiMH batteries around for those times when they would be consumed in a day or so of picture taking and keep the Eneloop or Hybrid batteries in the camera for the rest of the time.
 Signature Thomas T. Veldhouse
Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow they may make it illegal.
Dave Cohen - 29 Jun 2007 17:07 GMT >> Because a significant percentage of alkaline battery energy is >> delivered at fairly low voltages, if a camera is designed to power [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > when they would be consumed in a day or so of picture taking and keep the > Eneloop or Hybrid batteries in the camera for the rest of the time. I would point out that my old canon A40 stated Lithium batteries should not be used. They never said why and your guess is as good as mine. I don't see a similar caution with my A95 and haven't looked at other canon (or any one else's models.) Dave Cohen
Thomas T. Veldhouse - 29 Jun 2007 17:46 GMT > I would point out that my old canon A40 stated Lithium batteries should > not be used. They never said why and your guess is as good as mine. > I don't see a similar caution with my A95 and haven't looked at other > canon (or any one else's models.) > Dave Cohen Lithium peak at a higher voltage than Alkalines, and the circuitry may not be designed to handle this. They can run to 1.8V (open circuit voltage). Putting a significan load on an alkaline will drop it down to 1.2V (or lower) where a Lithium battery might only drop to 1.5V. That voltage under load may be to high for your camera's circuit design.
 Signature Thomas T. Veldhouse
Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow they may make it illegal.
ASAAR - 29 Jun 2007 19:00 GMT >> I would point out that my old canon A40 stated Lithium batteries should >> not be used. They never said why and your guess is as good as mine. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > where a Lithium battery might only drop to 1.5V. That voltage under load may > be to high for your camera's circuit design. Canon provided the reason in their manual for the A60 and A70 :
> Never use manganese or lithium batteries, as these battery types > may overheat in the camera. It's probably due more to excessive heat being produced as current is supplied, not due to a higher voltage, since Energizer's data sheet shows that a fresh AA lithium battery initially provides 1.5v with only a 250mw load (constant power). With a constant current 250ma load the voltage of a fresh cell starts at 1.6v at 21ºC, 1.5v at 0ºC and 1.4v at -20ºC.
ASAAR - 29 Jun 2007 17:24 GMT >> Because a significant percentage of alkaline battery energy is >> delivered at fairly low voltages, if a camera is designed to power [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > when there is in fact significant capacity left; they draw a high current and > drop the voltage of the battery down below 1.0V. Of course the voltage drop is a function of the current. But I wasn't discussing that. The camera does not power off at a particular current draw. It powers off at its design voltage cutoff point. And yes, alkaline battery voltage drops considerably with current because of its very high internal resistance. Energizer has it ranging from 150 to 300 milliohms for AA alkalines. Assuming fresh batteries delivering 1,000ma, the voltage drop would reduce the approx. 1.5v to about 1.35v (voltage drop == I*R, or 1*0.15). NiCd and NiMH batteries use *very* similar chemistry, and the internal resistance is 35 to 45milliohms for NiCd AA cells and 30 to 40milliohms for NiMH AA cells. With fully charged cells, the same 1,000ma load would drop the voltage by 0.035v (NiCD) and 0.03v (NiMH), both far lower than the 0.15v drop of the alkaline cells. The data sheets for these rechargeables show that they are for 650mAh NiCd AA cells and 2,500mAh NiMH AA cells.
It should be noted that under high loads these rechargeables can deliver voltages down to 0.9v and lower, even though when almost 100% depleted the open circuit voltage will be about 1.0v. So for fully charged NiCd or NiMH batteries, it appears possible for them to be able to deliver very high currents, maybe 10 amps for 10 to 15 minutes for NiMH cells and a couple of minutes for NiCd cells. Lithium cells on the other hand are current limited to only 2 amps continuous current and 3 amps at a reduced 20% duty cycle (2 seconds on, 8 seconds off). Energizer doesn't give the internal resistance for its L91 lithium AA cells, nor is the current limiting method described, but the internal resistance is certainly higher than NiCD and NiMH batteries, given that Nikon's SB-800 has recycle times of 7.5 seconds for lithium batteries whether 4 or 5 are used, and 4 second recycling times for NiCd and NiMH cells when 4 are used, and when 5 are used, 3.5 seconds for NiCd and only 2.9 seconds for NiMH.
> Keep some standard high capacity 2700mAh NiMH batteries around > for those times when they would be consumed in a day or so of picture > taking and keep the Eneloop or Hybrid batteries in the camera for the > rest of the time. I would have done that a year or two ago, but I've since found that even when I shoot at a fairly high rate for several days straight both my Fuji and Canon cameras won't need a battery change, so I don't see a real need for standard 2,700mAh batteries because the lower Eneloop/Hybrid capacities are still good for a couple of days. So now I keep standard batteries in one camera and Eneloops in the other. Eventually I'll use only Eneloops in both cameras. I always have lots of alkalines and a few lithiums on hand for emergencies, even though I was never one of the Y2K fanatics. :)
Thomas T. Veldhouse - 29 Jun 2007 17:52 GMT >>> Because a significant percentage of alkaline battery energy is >>> delivered at fairly low voltages, if a camera is designed to power [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > particular current draw. It powers off at its design voltage cutoff > point. Then we are in agreement. I was misled by your statement "Because a significant percentage of alkaline battery energy is delivered at fairly low voltages." I guess that is an odd way of putting it from my perspective.
>> Keep some standard high capacity 2700mAh NiMH batteries around >> for those times when they would be consumed in a day or so of picture [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > always have lots of alkalines and a few lithiums on hand for > emergencies, even though I was never one of the Y2K fanatics. :) I just keep the Eneloop and Hybrids around and swap them should I need replacements. I mostly use them for my SB-600 and I don't take that many shots with flash to begin with. My suggestion was mostly aimed at the OP who might go on a photo binge and prefer the extra capacity for short bursts.
 Signature Thomas T. Veldhouse
Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow they may make it illegal.
Ron Hunter - 30 Jun 2007 09:56 GMT >> If a set of AA alkalines yield 1200 pictures on these cameras, one might >> well install a set of lithium disposables and be fixed for the life of [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > to test this with a shot or two while the C743 is still using the > lithium batteries and then compare after the Eneloops are installed. ?? Seems that with lower internal resistance, and higher initial voltage, the lithium disposables would recharge a flash faster. Am I missing something? The camera seems to have taken only about 250 pictures so far, so I expect the batteries to last another few months, at least. Probably should charge the Eneloops before I put them in so I can get a good feel for how long they will last with a full charge. In either case, using this camera is virtually free.
ASAAR - 30 Jun 2007 14:33 GMT >> Well, just remember that when you finally install them, it's >> probably wise to recharge them yearly when you change your smoke [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > voltage, the lithium disposables would recharge a flash faster. Am I > missing something? Yep. The voltage may be higher, but it's very unlikely that lithium batteries have a lower internal resistance. NiCd and NiMH batteries have extremely low internal resistances. Checking data sheets, all battery types have their internal resistances stated with a high and a low value, probably representing the resistances of fresh/fully charged vs. the resistance when depleted. The one exception is lithium batteries, which don't include any internal resistance values on the data sheets, but which give (for AA batteries) a maximum sustained current of two amps and a maximum intermittent current of three amps for a 20% duty cycle (two seconds of current followed by 8 seconds of no current). From the given internal resistances, both NiCd and NiMH AA batteries should be able to deliver close to 10 amps when fully charged.
I've already posted what Nikon shows in its SB-800 manual for the minimum recycle times of different battery types but here it is again. The SB-800 normally uses four AA batteries, but can hold a fifth AA cell to potentially increase the number of flashes and to reduce the recycle times. For lithium batteries the recycle times for 4 and 5 cells are the same, 7.5 seconds, probably due to the lithium cell's current limit. For 1,000mAh NiCd batteries and 2,000mAh NiMH batteries the minimum recycle times are 4.0 seconds for both when four AA cells are used. When five cells are used, the NiCd recycle time drops to 3.5 seconds and the NiMH recycle time drops to 2.9 seconds.
> The camera seems to have taken only about 250 pictures so far, so I > expect the batteries to last another few months, at least. Probably > should charge the Eneloops before I put them in so I can get a good feel > for how long they will last with a full charge. In either case, using > this camera is virtually free. Or put the batteries (lithiums?) in an emergency flashlight and start using the Eneloops now. In either case using the camera will be free, but if you swap the batteries, in a few months the flashlight's batteries will probably still be usable, increasing your family's net worth by at least a few pennies. :)
John Bean - 28 Jun 2007 18:29 GMT >The Hybrio's do appear to be more expensive. $20 for 8 Eneloops from >Amazon, versus 14.12 for four Hybrio's from Amazon. Maybe in the US. Here they're both cheaper and easier to get hold of than Eneloop.
 Signature John Bean
Allen - 28 Jun 2007 18:43 GMT >> The Hybrio's do appear to be more expensive. $20 for 8 Eneloops from >> Amazon, versus 14.12 for four Hybrio's from Amazon. > > Maybe in the US. Here they're both cheaper and easier to get > hold of than Eneloop. I've seen what appears to be hybrids from Kodak, a smidgeon cheaper at WalMart than Ray-O-Vacs. Has anyone tried these? Strictly curiosity, as I'm extremely happy with my two sets of Ray-O-Vacs. Allen
Dave Cohen - 28 Jun 2007 18:47 GMT >>> Has anyone done any comparisons with hybrio type batteries against other >>> types? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > So they're slightly less capacity than the eneloop, yet more expensive! I'm assuming the op was interested in self discharge properties, since other than that there's nothing special about hybrid or eneloop. I think a perusal of other posts on this topic will indicate unanimous satisfaction with the performance of this type as regards self discharge. Charts and tables are all very well, but I'm far more interested if I can pick up my camera after 3 months of more of non use and shoot away and then repeat this 3 months later than whether I match the 650 'quick shots' I got or what I assume will be the smaller number when I have to recharge again. Dave Cohen
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