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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / Digital Photo / May 2007dmc-fz30, fz50 video out
I am contemplating purchase of a panasonic lumix dmc-fz30 or dmc-fz50. If I can get one I would prefer the fz-30. I need to know whether the video-out port on these cameras supports a live feed and if so, what sort of live feed. Does the video-out image include the camera settings superimposed? To clarify - I need a video-out signal in record or picture-taking mode. I have read that there is an undocumented function in the fz50: if you hold down delete key for 5 seconds in record mode then you get an ntsc live video feed. Unfortunately I don't know whether this video feed will continue until the camera is turned off or whether it needs to be reset at every photograph (which would be useless for me). Also I have no information whether the fz30 has the same function. - any info from panasonic fz30 or fz50 users would be appreciated. Graham E. > I am contemplating purchase of a panasonic lumix dmc-fz30 or dmc-fz50. > If I can get one I would prefer the fz-30. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Graham E. The manual for the fz50 (available online) includes a (very) passing reference to support for an AV feed in record mode - in ntsc only. It doesn't give any details how to access this but I am optimistic it will hold the setting until the device is turned off at the very least... Now if I can find the fz30 manual online... >> I am contemplating purchase of a panasonic lumix dmc-fz30 or dmc-fz50. >> If I can get one I would prefer the fz-30. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Now if I can find the fz30 manual online... The reference to the AV feed in record mode does not occur in the FZ30 manual. The manual contains large amounts of text which are word-for- word the same as the fz50 manual. Therefore I have to conclude that the live video feed was not supported on the fz30 model... I didn't want those extra megapixels but it looks like I will have to put up with them. any more info on this appreciated. Graham E. >>> I am contemplating purchase of a panasonic lumix dmc-fz30 or dmc-fz50. >>> If I can get one I would prefer the fz-30. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >>> >>> Graham E. Re: FZ-30 To activate live preview function, press and hold delete key during Power On. Once activated the fuction seems to remain active until record parameters are reset. External display shows same information on external screen as is selected for internal display. I have no way to determine if it is PAL or NTSC (only multi standard TV's available) but probably the video mode previously selected is used. > To activate live preview function, press and hold delete key during > Power On. Once activated the fuction seems to remain active until record [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I have no way to determine if it is PAL or NTSC (only multi standard > TV's available) but probably the video mode previously selected is used. I really appreciate that info - it's exactly what I needed to know. Thanks! It seems to be available nowhere else on the internet or in the Panasonic literature. And none of the reviews or sales sites distinguish what the AV output can actually do... Just to be extra clear before I spend $800 AUD can you confirm this is working for you on the FZ30 not the FZ50 or FZ10 right? Other info I am trying to clarify on the FZ30: A definitive time-measurement shot-to-shot for taking RAW photographs. I am planning to use this camera in a studio to produce stop-motion animation of HDV quality. RAW is important to the process because it means I can eliminate automatic brightness adjustments made during digital 'processing' into JPEGS and TIFFS. I would be taking say three or four shots and then, perhaps ten seconds break, then another three or four shots. Will the FZ30 buffer cope with these RAW shots? So far I have found on the internet very different estimates of shot to shot RAW performance for this camera: 3.6s 6.3s 3s (wikipedia) - this for storing a 14MB RAW file to the card along with a small JPG which the camera insists on creating... A 3.3second variance could mean big difference in whether the animation workflow can flow - if you see what I mean. So is it closer to 3 seconds or 6 seconds? Graham E. > Other info I am trying to clarify on the FZ30: > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Graham E. Unfortunately the FZ - 30' s internal RAM buffer seems to be quite small and does allow only to shoot single shots in .RAW, no bursts. Depending on contents the time to prepare the .jpg file seems to vary, so there is not really a fixed shot to shot delay time, but between 3 and 4 seconds with a current SD - card sounds reasonable. The FZ 30 only supports the FAT file system, thus there is a memory card capacity limit of 2 GBytes. Really old and slow memory cards (hard to obtain now) may slow down the write process, that might be the cause for the controversial data you found. > Unfortunately the FZ - 30' s internal RAM buffer seems to be quite small > and does allow only to shoot single shots in .RAW, no bursts. Depending [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > write process, that might be the cause for the controversial data you > found. ahh.. perhaps I will need to go for the FZ50 instead. I'll do some more reading on the buffers, timings etc on this model. The trade off is I will end up with significantly larger RAW files which I don't need and which my computer will spend longer crunching down... great info. Thank you. Graham E. > ahh.. perhaps I will need to go for the FZ50 instead. I'll do some more > reading on the buffers, timings etc on this model. The trade off is I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Graham E. um now it seems I am being hasty. I just timed my fuji finepix s5500 and it takes 3-4 seconds shot to shot to store 4MP RAW images (some 8MB each). And that has actually proven just fast enough for my workflow. So the fz30 should do what I need after all. These cameras are becoming scarce. Meanwhile the fz50s are being discounted everywhere but I REALLY don't want that extra resolution. So now I'm going to try and hunt one of these fz30s down... >A 3.3second variance could mean big difference in whether the animation >workflow can flow - if you see what I mean. So is it closer to 3 seconds >or 6 seconds? If you want precise control, then get any of the Canon A-series or S2 IS or S3 IS cameras. Then use the CHDK firmware add-on for it. http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/CHDK You can write your own intervalometer scripts or use existing ones to control time between shots to as low as 1/2 second for a session as long as you want (memory card size permitting). Check out the "OMNI Intervalometer" script on the CHDK user-written scripts page, to give you an idea of what you can do with it. If shooting with RAW then you are limited to the speed of your memory card. 2.4 seconds between RAW shots being typical. 1.4 seconds per RAW shot on faster cards like a Dane-Elec 133x (its write speed is faster than Transcend 150x, or Sandisk Ultra III cards). I don't know about the other Canon cameras that are supported by CHDK, but the S3 IS's video-out also switches between PAL and NTSC (menu option) and is live all the time (when the camera is on), but it disables the on-camera displays when in use. I have found that you can hide or disable almost all of the on-screen information through the various camera's options, but not all of them. > I don't know about the other Canon cameras that are supported by CHDK, > but the S3 IS's video-out also switches between PAL and NTSC (menu > option) and is live all the time (when the camera is on), but it > disables the on-camera displays when in use. my research on the S3 IS and S5 IS stopped when I got to this point: "motor driven zoom lens". There is a problem with these lenses for animation work. Perhaps this problem does not exist in this case and you can advise me. The reason I am shedding my Finepix S5500 is that every time the camera is restarted the zoom lens moves. You can set it to resume its previous zoom setting but I have found that this is not 100% precise. I believe the problem is in the slight bit of free play with these motor extending zoom lenses. I expect all these cameras will suffer from it to some degree. The apparent amount of free play in the Fuji is next to nothing but it creates a big headache with the animation work. Once you are in the compositing stage the slightest movement of the frame; lateral movement or a zoom variation; shows up as a judder. Correcting this in post is a big headache and the result is not 100% satisfactory. This is why I am looking at the 'Bridge' cameras which have mechanical linked zoom. That way nothing is messing with my zoom or pan while I am changing memory cards or powering down and up again for whatever reason. The eligible candidates are the dmc-fz30 and fz50, the Digilux2, possibly some of the new DSLRs with live preview, a fixed lense camera if I could find a suitable one (like the new RICOH Range Finder) ... At the moment most of these cameras are out of my league except the cheapest of these: fz50 and possibly if I can find one the fz30. I am open to investigating other camera suggestions. For instance a camera with a fixed lens would do the trick but none of these that I can find have a RAW capability except for that rottenly expensive digital range-finder camera that just came out. My needs are: live preview via AV port. RAW capability. 3MP minimum. 5 or 6 is ideal. fully manual exposure, WB and other controls (if they effect the RAW)... preferable is: remote shutter capability. thanks for the input Graham E. > The reason I am shedding my Finepix S5500 is that every time the camera > is restarted the zoom lens moves. You can set it to resume its previous [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > movement or a zoom variation; shows up as a judder. Correcting this in > post is a big headache and the result is not 100% satisfactory. If the S5500 was satisfactory except for the lens movement, you might want to consider its replacement, the S5600. It has a non-extending lens and only has a modest increase in resolution (4mp to 5mp) so it doesn't run into the noise problems that afflict some of the high mp cameras. It has a few other niceties, one being that its display is more sensitive or brighter, making it better than the S5500 for use in low light levels. Otherwise much the same, but it gets even better battery life than the S5500 which was already quite good. Oh, one more thing. Because of the new, non-extending lens design, if you want to add filters or any of Fuji's WA or Tele conversion lenses, they now mount directly on the camera. To mount them on the S5500 it was necessary to use an adapter ring, i.e., the tube that was included with the S5500. > My needs are: > live preview via AV port. > RAW capability. > 3MP minimum. 5 or 6 is ideal. > fully manual exposure, WB and other controls (if they effect the RAW)... If this is good for your S5500, it should be for the S5600 as well, which is approximately the same size, shape and weight, and the last time I looked, fairly inexpensive. But I don't think it's available new anymore, apparently replaced by the 7mp S700. I don't know what the S700 might be called where you're from. Here (USA) I have the S5100, which is the same as your S5500. Comparing prices with the FZ-50 which you're also looking at, the S700 sells for $212 and the 10mp Panasonic FZ-50 is $479 at B&H (bhphotovideo.com). I'm not really familiar with the Fuji S700, but it appears to have the same non-extending 10x lens as the S5200/S5600. Spec's at : http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/492490-REG/Fujifilm_15747988_FinePix_S700_ Digital_Camera.html > I'm not really familiar with the Fuji S700, but it appears to have > the same non-extending 10x lens as the S5200/S5600. Spec's at : > > http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/492490-REG/Fujifilm_15747988_FinePix_S700_ Digital_Camera.html This is a good tip - thanks - I will go look into this camera now. The only other thing missing from the s5500 is the remote shutter release but if it comes down to it I will just rig something up. One slight thing I am worried about is whether the zoom is reset every time the camera turns on and off even if the lens body itself is non- extending. In the S5500 you can set the zoom to 'resume' as I assume you can in the s5600 but the problem is that it returns to a zero point when you switch off and then moves back to the original position when you turn back on. This could easily cause some lack of precision with the moving zoom elements even if the body of the lens is fixed... While this would be theoretically unneccessary with the fixed body lens I am worried it might happen anyway. Can you advise on this? Graham > One slight thing I am worried about is whether the zoom is reset every > time the camera turns on and off even if the lens body itself is non- [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Can you advise on this? The S5200/S5600 operates the same as the S5100/S5500. I played with the S5200 at B&H, and the front lens element never moves, whether zooming, powering down or powering on, and I guess that's why its power on time is quicker than the S5100. But I have the S5200's PDF manual, and it has the same Reset/Resume menu option, where the manual states : > Zoom Position Specifies whether the position of the lens is recorded when > the camera is turned off. The lens moves to the recorded > position when turning the camera on again. I don't know how precise it would be, but as most (or all?) of the P&S cameras have a fixed number of zoom steps or positions, I'd think that getting back to the same zoom position would be fairly repeatable and accurate. What I'd have less confidence in is whether the lens would be focused at precisely the same distance when it was turned on again. I just tried it with the S5100 at 6 different zoom positions, and when focusing, turning the camera off and back on again, the focus appeared to be unchanged except for when the lens was almost completely extended towards the maximum zoom position. Then it needed to be refocused. I just thought of something though. Even if the zoom position and focus couldn't be returned to the exact same position and distance, if it's highly repeatable with good accuracy, there might be a useful workaround. Suppose you have everything set up where the camera to subject distance is exactly 10 feet, but when you power up, the lens focuses 6 inches closer. If you then move the subject 6 inches closer to the camera, every time you power on the camera, the focus point might return to the exact same distance of 9 1/2 ft. > The S5200/S5600 operates the same as the S5100/S5500. I played > with the S5200 at B&H, and the front lens element never moves, whether [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> the camera is turned off. The lens moves to the recorded >> position when turning the camera on again. ahh it sounds like that while the external lens elements don't move the internal ones do. That's a shame as it would seem to be unneccessary in this case. > I don't know how precise it would be, but as most (or all?) of the > P&S cameras have a fixed number of zoom steps or positions, I'd think [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > extended towards the maximum zoom position. Then it needed to be > refocused. It's the 'fairly accurate' that may be the problem. If one of the picture elements jumps be even a pixel then you have a problem in the animation. I have worried about the focus so far as the zoom problem has been #1 culprit. I guess until I test a fixed-lens motor-zoom camera (like the 5200/5600) in my own studio setup I won't know if the variations I'm seeing with the S5500 are all attributable to the free play in the extending lens or whether the motorised zoom elements are also to blame. > I just thought of something though. Even if the zoom position and > focus couldn't be returned to the exact same position and distance, if [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > to the camera, every time you power on the camera, the focus point might > return to the exact same distance of 9 1/2 ft. these steps I take I have to reproduce every time I switch a storage card in or out - which is probably 10-15 seconds of animation material per card. thanks for the help Graham > I have worried about the focus so far as the zoom problem has been #1 > culprit. I HAVEN'T worried about the focus so far as the zoom problem has been #1 culprit. After being put back on the trail of the finepix I am now looking at the finepix 6000fd/6500fd as the camera of choice for my animation projects... In Australia it is about a 40% cost saving over a dmc-fz30 or dmc-fz50 and 40% saving the number of pixels I have to push around to process my raw images. Can any owners of this camera confirm with 100% certainty that, as with my finepix s5500, I will get a live preview from the A/V socket while in record mode? The literature on this point is universally weak... Thanks for any info Graham > After being put back on the trail of the finepix I am now looking at the > finepix 6000fd/6500fd as the camera of choice for my animation [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Graham Also this is lacking a feature I was looking for : a remote shutter release. Unless anyone is able to advise otherwise. So I will have to build my own somehow. er... just to correct my thread subject title. > these steps I take I have to reproduce every time I switch a storage card > in or out - which is probably 10-15 seconds of animation material per > card. Hmm, at a 30fps rate and full resolution that sounds like you're using a 500MB or 1GB card. If I'm not mistaken, have you tried a 2GB card? I've used one (Olympus), and while I haven't come close to filling it, it has worked pretty well so far. > thanks for the help You're welcome, and good luck with your project. > Hmm, at a 30fps rate and full resolution that sounds like you're > using a 500MB or 1GB card. If I'm not mistaken, have you tried a 2GB > card? I've used one (Olympus), and while I haven't come close to > filling it, it has worked pretty well so far. Actually it is the use of RAW shots (to stop automatic brightness adjustments, black point setting etc. etc. from shot to shot). these are 14MB-20MB in the various cameras I am looking at. (12fps * 14MB * 12 seconds is enough to fill 2GB cards). If I buy my finepix 6500fd I'll be ordering two 2GB type H XD cards from Hong Kong. Graham > Actually it is the use of RAW shots (to stop automatic brightness > adjustments, black point setting etc. etc. from shot to shot). these are > 14MB-20MB in the various cameras I am looking at. (12fps * 14MB * 12 > seconds is enough to fill 2GB cards). If I buy my finepix 6500fd I'll be > ordering two 2GB type H XD cards from Hong Kong. It's a shame that it doesn't allow both xD and SD cards which is the direction Fuji is now taking, an example being the little F40fd. Then you'd probably be able to use up to 6GB (2xD, 4SD) per session. I guess that 2GB cards in the 6500fd aren't too much of a hardship. :) [] > ... I'll be ordering two 2GB type H XD cards from Hong Kong. > > Graham Is that really cheaper than buying locally? These days 2GB SD cards in the UK can be had for under 10GBP. Not sure what that is in AUD. Example: http://www.picstop.co.uk/Secure-Digital-SD/Kingston-Secure-Digital-(SD)-Card---2GB David > [] >> ... I'll be ordering two 2GB type H XD cards from Hong Kong. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Is that really cheaper than buying locally? These days 2GB SD cards in > the UK can be had for under 10GBP. Not sure what that is in AUD. Yes cheaper - also you can't get the H (high speed) XD cards in Australia yet. If you can they are the small (512MB) ones not the big 2GB ones. The H is potentially twice as fast as the more common M coded XD cards which are, in turn, twice as fast as the original plain vanilla XD. I figure I can get 2 x 2GB cards for about $120 including postage for the bargain basement Hong Kong ebayers. >> [] >>> ... I'll be ordering two 2GB type H XD cards from Hong Kong. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I figure I can get 2 x 2GB cards for about $120 including postage for > the bargain basement Hong Kong ebayers. Thanks. I mis-read it as "SD" as that's what I normally buy. I can't comment on XD, but here are some UK XD-H prices: http://www.digitalpromo.co.uk/memory-cards-memory-card-c-2_77_84.html http://www.picstop.co.uk/xD-Picture-Card/Fuji-xD-Picture-Card---2GB-(Type-H) Cheers, David > [] >> ... I'll be ordering two 2GB type H XD cards from Hong Kong. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > David Agreed, but I have bought 4 SD cards in the last 12 months. Three from HongKong via ebay and one from Manchester. The one that failed me was the Mancunian one and it also took longer to get to me by mail even though I live in the UK Just my experience of course but wanted to say that not all HK/Chinese dealers deserve the shady reputation they have. Dave [] > Agreed, but I have bought 4 SD cards in the last 12 months. Three from > HongKong via ebay and one from Manchester. The one that failed me was [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > dealers deserve the shady reputation they have. > Dave Actually it wasn't so much the dealer reputation, but the price. It just surprised me that there was any significant benefit buying abroad for getting cheaper goods (such as SD cards today). Sorry to hear about your Mancunian Experience! David >> Hmm, at a 30fps rate and full resolution that sounds like you're >> using a 500MB or 1GB card. If I'm not mistaken, have you tried a 2GB [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Graham While 14-20mb RAW files aren't out of the scope of realism, what camera can take 12 such frames in one second, and what card can write those images? > While 14-20mb RAW files aren't out of the scope of realism, what camera > can take 12 such frames in one second, and what card can write those > images? The ones that can aren't likely to be xD cards. :) >> While 14-20mb RAW files aren't out of the scope of realism, what camera >> can take 12 such frames in one second, and what card can write those >> images? > > The ones that can aren't likely to be xD cards. :) Not sure the speed of the new H coded XD cards but it's at least 4 times that of the orginal XD format. >>> Hmm, at a 30fps rate and full resolution that sounds like you're >>> using a 500MB or 1GB card. If I'm not mistaken, have you tried a 2GB [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > can take 12 such frames in one second, and what card can write those > images? No - you've just missed part of a (long) thread. I am doing stop-motion animation work. A digital camera is a far better tool for this than digicam (in my opinion). This has even been done in Hollywood recently with Tim Burton's Corpse Bride (They used Canons I think). You just need to get past some problems created by digital cameras not being specifically designed for this sort of work (especially the cheap ones). Using RAW gets past a few of those problems. With even a 3MP still camera you have more than enough image quality to create HD video at 1080i or 720p. The cameras I am looking at can take and store a RAW photo in around 4 seconds. The one using XD is the finepix s6000/6500fd. This is reported to have shot to shot time in RAW mode of 3.6 seconds. Graham >The reason I am shedding my Finepix S5500 is that every time the camera >is restarted the zoom lens moves. You can set it to resume its previous >zoom setting but I have found that this is not 100% precise. I believe >the problem is in the slight bit of free play with these motor extending >zoom lenses. I expect all these cameras will suffer from it to some >degree. I suspect most do suffer from that. Luckily the Canon S3 IS does not. If you save the zoom setting on the "C"ustom setting, it returns to the EXACT zoom location where you saved it. There are 129 discreet (ultrasonic) stepper-motor zoom steps on which it can stop. If you use CHDK with the S3 IS then these can also be programmed into a script. You can also see which zoom step you are on in the viewfinder display if you turn on the "Show Misc Values" (in CHDK's options). You can have it display the raw zoom step (0-128), the true lens' focal-length, or its 35mm equivalent. This is even more accurate than anything you could possibly achieve by a mechanically linked zoom ring. (The A-Series cameras however only have 9 or 15 discreet zoom steps, 0-8 or 0-14.) >My needs are: >live preview via AV port. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >preferable is: >remote shutter capability. Sounds like you are exactly describing the S3 IS with CHDK installed. If you want even more control for doing stop-frame animations then check into 2 other programs that support remote operation of the S3 IS through computer via USB port. PSRemote from http://www.breezesys.com/ or GBTimelapse from http://www.granitebaysoftware.com Both of them support onion-skin views (superimposed last-frame view over next-frame) specifically for doing animations. > I suspect most do suffer from that. Luckily the Canon S3 IS does not. If > you save the zoom setting on the "C"ustom setting, it returns to the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > This is even more accurate than anything you could possibly achieve by a > mechanically linked zoom ring. Wow that could be really handy in making stop motion zooms. okay I'll do some more checking on this camera. > (The A-Series cameras however only have 9 or 15 discreet zoom steps, 0-8 > or 0-14.) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > onion-skin views (superimposed last-frame view over next-frame) > specifically for doing animations. I use linux tools in my animation work. I wonder if anything has been created on this OS. thanks for the info Graham >> I suspect most do suffer from that. Luckily the Canon S3 IS does not. >> If you save the zoom setting on the "C"ustom setting, it returns to the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> it display the raw zoom step (0-128), the true lens' focal-length, or >> its 35mm equivalent. While the extra functionality of hackable firmware, remote computer control and stepping through zoom levels would be amazing there is a problem: The S3 not only has the motor controlled zoom but also an extending lens. All these extending lenses have some free play it seems. My fuji S5500 extending lens is quite tight but that small amount of freeplay is enough to move the subject in the frame... so that the pan rather than the zoom could be the problem here... And a precise zoom might also be compromised by the slight movements in the length of the lens barrel. This is actually virtually identical design to the S5500 lens in terms of its basic mechanics. And I have proven that one to be unworkable for high quality animation ... Graham >>> I suspect most do suffer from that. Luckily the Canon S3 IS does not. >>> If you save the zoom setting on the "C"ustom setting, it returns to the [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >Graham Still no problem. Turn off the power-saving mode, then the only thing that goes to sleep is the display to conserve battery (custom 10 sec to 3 mins max), the zoom always stays extended if power-saving is turned off, holding its exact position. Also make sure you have a filter-adapter surrounding the lens so that nothing can nudge it while extended (nice sturdy metal ones from Adorama for only $17, perfect tight fit). To be doubly sure that your lens doesn't shift position, then line your filter-adapter tube with some thick fuzzy velcro to fill up the gap between lens-barrel and tube. I have mine that way just as an extra dust trap to prevent the extending lens from sucking in any dust. (Improving greatly on Canon's own design this way. Just be sure you don't line it with something that will cause too much friction when extending, to harm the motor.) If you are certain that you won't be needing to power-down the camera, you could reinforce the centering of the lens-barrel inside the filter-adapter tube even further with something more rigid and secure, locking it tight in place until you need to really power down. Just a shortened roll of corrugated cardboard would tightly lock it in place. The only time I could see image shift being an issue is if you are moving the camera yourself between sessions. Quite frankly, while I realize that free-play must be inherent in the lens design, I've never noticed much play in mine when extended and it takes a bit of intentional force to move it even 1mm. Outside of this one unproven problem that you cite (which is extremely easy to circumvent with a filter-adapter tube and some lens-barrel centering reinforcement/padding), it sounds like the ideal camera for doing animations. This could very-well be why those software makers that support its remote control features include the onion-skinning feature. Other animators have probably found no better camera for the purpose. And turn off image-stabilization or that'll shift your image for you if you induce a vibration for which it needs to compensate. Otherwise the IS goes into a sleep-mode after 2 seconds when it detects no movement. On my S3 IS I found it's perfectly fine to leave IS turned on when the camera is on a tripod. It doesn't interfere in the least. Unless it has to compensate for a bump or vibration, then it wakes up again. I've not run into a camera before with so much forethought put into its design as this one. > Still no problem. Turn off the power-saving mode, then the only thing > that goes to sleep is the display to conserve battery (custom 10 sec to [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > don't line it with something that will cause too much friction when > extending, to harm the motor.) Thanks for all those tips - can you comment: with the fuji cameras I need to power down to remove the memory card. The camera does 'resume' its previous zoom upon power-up but with the aforementioned problem. I assume with the Canon the hacked firmware or some other method retrieves the shots without the need of going via the memory card - is that what you had in mind? The other power down scenario for me is the blackouts - we can expect 1 blackout per week on average living in the bush where we are - although sometimes it can be several a day. Obviously that is getting into the marginal cases... A UPS perhaps... Unless the camera is very good at switching between batteries and DC adaptor (mine isn't). regarding the tightness of the canon lens barrel, the thing is the Fuji is also a very tight lens but either very small movement in this lens barrel or else movement in the inner parts of the zoom are causing this problem. As you say it is unknown as to which is causing the problem and definitely unproven whether the canon would have the same probelm. The thing is that this is the only driving reason for me to replace my camera so I need to be sure. thanks for the help Graham >Thanks for all those tips - can you comment: with the fuji cameras I need >to power down to remove the memory card. Yes, when you change cards the lens will reset, retract then return to its position you had when you reinsert the card. When you open the SD card door the camera goes into a sleep-mode, but when you put the card back in it resets the lens (no need to turn off the camera to change cards, but it does reset from a small switch in the card access door). However if you use a laptop or computer with one of those remote control software programs (previously mentioned), the images (JPG only, as RAW is a CHDK feature and only saved to SD card), you have the option of saving all images to the hard-drive. So you have as much storage as a hard-drive with no need to change cards and worry about the zoom-lens resetting. Again, if you put a ring of soft support (as I use the fuzz side of thick velcro tape as a dust shield) around the inside of a filter-adapter tube and snug up against the lens-barrel, I see no reason why you couldn't be certain that the lens' position retains its registration when retracted and expanded again. If you have to depend on SD cards only and no computer for storage, the S3 IS supports all SD cards up to 8 GB, (or higher as they become available). Do you realize how many frames that is? On a 4GB card at the highest possible resolution (JPG=2816x2112, RAW=2840x2128) and lowest compression (SuperFine) you can store over 1500 JPG frames. (RAW is always 7.3megs each.) The counter for the image space available doesn't even go high enough for 640x480 images, as it maxes out at 9999 frames on the display. So the available space is much higher than that. On a 2GB card with 640x480 at SuperFine, you can store over 6,800 images (9999+ at the medium Fine setting). That's 3.8 hours of animation frames on a 2GB card. Longer than any animated production in existence. > The camera does 'resume' its >previous zoom upon power-up but with the aforementioned problem. I [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >getting into the marginal cases... A UPS perhaps... Unless the camera >is very good at switching between batteries and DC adaptor (mine isn't). I get the feeling that you are trying to invent more problems out of this than actually exists in the camera's themselves, (or you're just trying to find excuses to not start on your project). You'll probably have more problem trying to find ways to keep the whole camera stationary for those lengths of time and not move one second of degree in any direction, more than you will have problems with the lens in the camera causing any shifts. Is it impossible for you to completely move the camera when you need to and then set it back in perfect registration again, by comparing registration objects in the frame? Sounds quite simple to me. And when you can zoom into the image in playback mode up to 10x times (almost to pixel level, I use it to check focus), and since your EVF and LCD view is exactly 100% of your image frame, re-registering the whole camera position when needed would be more simple than trying to take precautions against any lens or camera movement. >regarding the tightness of the canon lens barrel, the thing is the Fuji >is also a very tight lens but either very small movement in this lens [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >thing is that this is the only driving reason for me to replace my camera >so I need to be sure. It sounds like you're not going to be satisfied with any answers until you actually try one of these cameras for yourself. There's not much more I can help with by words on your computer monitor. Get (under $300 now), borrow, or rent an S3 IS and test out all its features. Try the demos of either of those programs I already mentioned. Try the CHDK firmware-addon and read about all it can do on the Wiki pages for it. You can worry about unseen and unknown problems until you are in your grave. Someone who actually intends to accomplish things will make-do with whatever they have at hand. Did having only a Brownie Box camera stop me from taking award winning photos when young? No. And I didn't sit there waiting around and worrying until a better camera came along either. > Yes, when you change cards the lens will reset, retract then return to > its position you had when you reinsert the card. When you open the SD ... > However if you use a laptop or computer with one of those remote control > software programs (previously mentioned), the images (JPG only, as RAW > is a CHDK feature and only saved to SD card), you have the option of Thanks for the info. Remember my needs are to shoot in RAW (a whole different thread would be needed about why this is so). So I would have to put up with the lens resetting. The sole reason I am on this newsgroup now is to find the camera that will do all the things my old one did yet overcome these lens problems. From your information the canon won't do this. The new insight you have given me into the power of the canon S3 with firmware hacks is really intriguing. Hopefully it will find its way into some of my future projects. To go down this track now would be to fall into the trap you mentioned about avoiding creative work. I have a creative flow right now. I have written some scripts (actually one very large script triggered when I pop the card into the reader) for my Linux machine to automatically import, organise, pre-process the RAW images, fiddle with aspect ratios, orientations, widths and heights and then feed the animation into the clip library on my digital video editor. I have built a tripod and lighting rig and completed 6 animation experiments. The last two experiments were longer than 20 seconds each and consequently required me to change memory cards. Thus I have discovered my problem with the zoom. In contrast to what you say - it is going for the canon and exploring all those new capabilities right now which would be the diversion from getting back to the difficult and challenging work of creating animations. I do find the creative work hard and are drawn towards the technical (thus my script). But it is time to knuckle down and stay on track with the creative - animating - side not the creative - technical side. To go for the fixed - mechanical zoom - lens was the obvious solution to my problem. The non-obvious solutions you suggest are interesting but they are all quite hypothetical. I have a concrete workflow that I can continue right now... The workflow plan is to have 2 GB cards and to be animating on one while the transferring and pre-processing is going on with the other one. My script reduces those huge raws into a png sequence with 3MB per image amongst other things... > If you have to depend on SD cards only and no computer for storage, the > S3 IS supports all SD cards up to 8 GB, (or higher as they become [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > (9999+ at the medium Fine setting). That's 3.8 hours of animation frames > on a 2GB card. Longer than any animated production in existence. RAW is neccessary as the digital development process involves statistical adjustments of exposure levels, black points etc. which aren't designed to make sense of a sequence of images. This sort of thing is probably one reason it has taken so long for the still camera to become the tool of choice for professional animators. There are of course many ways to make a workflow but the creative process dictates you develop that workflow from the best bits of what is happening right now... > I get the feeling that you are trying to invent more problems out of > this than actually exists in the camera's themselves, (or you're just [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > in any direction, more than you will have problems with the lens in the > camera causing any shifts. I appreciate the tough love. You obviously understand the pitfalls of the creative process! You're right about keeping the camera stable being difficult. Ultimately I want to have a concrete slab shed dedicated to become my studio. We don't suffer from earthquakes around here so perhaps that would be a canonical solution. But my present heavily modified Manfrotto tripod is very steady. The only movements I get are from pressing the shutter and the zoom resetting issues discussed. > Is it impossible for you to completely move the camera when you need to > and then set it back in perfect registration again, by comparing > registration objects in the frame? Sounds quite simple to me. Not so simple to get it pixel (and sub-pixel) perfect over a 720p or 1080i frame - just look at how difficult it is getting white text scrolling slowly on a black background without crazy interlacing and anti- aliasing effects. And the real problem here is this registration process would potentially need to occur not only when I made a deliberate camera movement but as an automatic part of the animating process due to needing to start a new memory card. > It sounds like you're not going to be satisfied with any answers until > you actually try one of these cameras for yourself. There's not much thats true > more I can help with by words on your computer monitor. Get (under $300 > now), borrow, or rent an S3 IS and test out all its features. Try the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > sit there waiting around and worrying until a better camera came along > either. Nor am I waiting. I've just ordered my finepix s6500fd. (also a very good price at present). The compromise and make-do on this one will be building a remote shutter release mechanism of some sort. Apart from that the camera will work exactly as my previous one did but no motors in the lens. I really appreciate the tough love - I'm not at all a cynical or sarcastic person and I mean that - I appreciate frankness - it's hard enough to be a successful creative artist without sycophancy. And I really do want to try out one of these S3s. I will be waiting to pounce on ebay. I love firmware hacking and being able to drive things from linux scripts is an amazingly powerful way of working. No way will the s6500 be my last animation camera and thanks to you I have a candidate in mind for the next one. all the best with your own endeavours. If you have any work online I'd love to check it out if you send me a link Graham |
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